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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 12:32:26
I was in tears before I could say anything. He knew what I was bringing up because I talked to his secretary yesterday about this while trying to make a last min. appointment yesterday, and she told him. ugggh! not going to talk to her again about anything. So he had a big head's up to what I was going to even bring up.
I told him that I was worried about him and I was crying, it was so freakin hard to tell him why because I didn't want to hurt him or worry himself about himself. He said he was worried about why I was so worried about him. I told him about the memory stuff. He told me he of course he doesn't think he has changed, it was more that I was more sensitive and in a sense looking for things because of his illnesses. I told him that could be one theory, but I said it could be another theory is that he doesn't want to believe what I am saying because of the implications of what I was saying and he wants to stay in denial. oh, my did I say this to him? Okay so through many tears of mine we sort of agreed to disagree about my perceptions.
But then he went on to say that he has had diminishing memory for the last 10 years, and that is why he takes notes now when in the past he didn't so much. But now he gets behind a lot with clients and so instead of taking a few minutes to piss and make notes and read notes about the next client, he just doesn't stop. (his words) So to me it is like he is flying by the seat of his pants. He told me he could talk to a client one day and the next day not remember anything they talked about. He said some clients like me are more memorable and he would remember things if he were to see me in public.I told him why he didn't ask me what he forgot about me, didn't he want to know? So I told him the stuff and he didn't have much to say other than telling me he can't remember everything. He then said that maybe he needed to pay more attention to notes and write more because I need that in my therapy. I told him he should do that with everyone, not just me. I asked him if he knew the saying that for every one person that makes a complaint, there are at least 10 others who are too afraid to bring it up. I told him I am sure I am not the only one who has noticed this, and that why he should take time between clients.
It was frusterating today because I felt I got a lot of planned canned responses, and I felt he wasn't taking what I said as very valid. It hurt to tell him this, and I guess I have to respect his view that he is all right and it is just my perception is wrong, that he has always been this way, and I just now noticed, if I want to continue to work with him.
I feel even more confused now and I am in tears even now. I told him I have been waiting for him to come back. He was somewhat defensive because in a way I am questioning his competency to do therapy so I understand. He even put out there that he wonders if I can work with him because I don't have faith in him. That comment really hurt because I truly feel he has changed, it isn't just my awareness because of his illnesses.I just don't know what to do. He was even questioning his more than normal disclosure with me.
He asked me if he looked hurt about me telling him, I said yes, and a little irritated, and he said that is probably projection. I said that I don't believe in projection. He laughed and said as long as it doesn't pertain to me. So he promised me he was going to take time between clients and write more notes.
Well by the time I got to my car, he had already made it out the back door and was getting in his car to leave.
Posted by JayMac on September 23, 2008, at 13:20:32
In reply to My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 12:32:26
That's hard. I can feel your need to have him be *present* with you. It makes me sad to think that your T isn't able to take care of you. I sure hope things work out. Take good care of yourself.
I wish I could give you a real hug!!!!! ((((((lemonaide))))))
Posted by muffled on September 23, 2008, at 15:20:19
In reply to My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 12:32:26
the only thing I can think of as far as a possibility(not a truth, but something that sometimes happenes) is that sometimes when we are getting ready to really go thru something really scarey in therapy, we get scared that T is not sstrong enuf to handle it. That what if if T can't handle it, and I can't......then what????then I have wrecked my t whom I care for.
Just mentioned this. It don't seem to be the case, but mentioned it on the chaNce.
I'd say your T is human.....and STUBBORN!!! and your perceptions are proly right.
It seems you said your piece clearly and well.
What more can you do?
It may be sadly time to move on....
I hope you can communicate it to him how positive he HAS been, but mebbe your done :(
You could ask the other T bout your concerns about his disclosure bout old T....
Take care,
M
Posted by JayJ on September 23, 2008, at 15:47:28
In reply to My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 12:32:26
Oh Lemonaide, I feel so bad for you. It must really be painful.
I've been considering writing this, but after your posting today, I thought I should do it. Probably others have thought the same but maybe are smarter and not raising it? I just want to say that based on my experience with my father, this looks a lot like the early stages of Alzheimer's disease. My father had memory lapsss for a number of years, and then had bipass surgery. I don't know if it was the extra stress of surgery or what, but when he came out it was _really_ obvious. He was in denial for quite a while. He would say his doctor said he was OK, when I knew this wasn't true. I don't know if he just couldn't remember, so said what he wanted to hear.
Lemonaide, I really hope this doesn't make you feel worse. I just think you should be aware of the possibilities if you are trying to make decisions.
You're in such a tough situation, but I think you should do what I'm sure your T would have advised you when he was well - do what is best for you.
Please take care - we are thinking of you.
JayJ
Posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 16:47:56
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy? » lemonaide, posted by JayJ on September 23, 2008, at 15:47:28
Hi Jay,
Actually what you post was something I was also thinking because I know something like an illness or major stress can bring out the effects of Alzheimer's more strongly. This is something I learned in cognitive psych and lifespan development. Plus there is the element of being stubborn to really seeing it, usually others will see it before the actual person does. In therapy we are working one on one every hour, every week, I think it is very possible to see when something is not quite right.
I am glad you posted because I was thinking of this also and he is at the age 66 where it can happen.
I think I will still go to my other session with Thurs. with the new T this week, if anything to discuss this situation. I couldn't tell my current T about this yet, I just didn't have the heart to. Maybe he will help me work out all of this.
Posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 16:57:23
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by muffled on September 23, 2008, at 15:20:19
Hi Muffy,
Thanks for posting what you did, it is something I am thinking about, hoping I am not resisting in therapy. So I will keep that in mind, I know I didn't wreak him, but I do worry about telling him what I did making him feel like he is incompetent. He is human, yes, and now yeah he does have a stubborn streak, now that I think about it it seems like a common trait among T's. lol
I did have the opportunity to tell him how much he has helped me and how I respect him a lot today. I even told him that he said he would maybe be a mentor to me during grad school and since he forgot I was going to be a T, I am sure he forgot this conversation too. His look on his face was sort of shock when I told him this.I truly think he is in denial, and I certainly can understand why. He told me today that he will remember this session forever. I didn't ask him why, but it makes me wonder. Did I hit a nerve or fear? I just don't know Muffy, it is so hard. I don't want to lose anyone right now, I have had enough of that lately. I think I will give it some more time. See what he says next week.
Posted by Geegee on September 23, 2008, at 17:00:06
In reply to My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 12:32:26
Dang, what a difficult session. Good for you for speaking up about what concerns you even though you worried about and cared about his reaction. And for sticking with it despite his deflections.
One thing to consider...with normal age-related decline in memory, the person's recollection usually improves with cues. That is, when reminded in some way about the event or thing that is not recalled, the person usually then can recall it better. It doesn't even have to be a "complete cue", it can just be part of it or a hint. If cuing doesn't ever seem to help recall, then the memory deficits are more consistent with a disease process.
I faced this with a supervisor, and it was really, really rattling. Coming from a alcoholic family background, it also was terribly crazy-making and really threw me. There wasn't much I could do about it at the time other than talk to my school supervisors. This guy was in his early 70's. I really hope that he has or will end his career and retire on his terms and before he becomes too bad off, assuming there really is/was something wrong with him.
Hang in there, sweetie. I know this is hard, but you've got more skills and strength to deal, too.
gg
Posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 18:13:54
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy? » lemonaide, posted by Geegee on September 23, 2008, at 17:00:06
Sometimes I wonder if therapy is just a bunch of BS that causes more problems than it solves. Right now I just feel like quitting therapy and try to deal with life the way I have always dealt with it. Because you would think that being in therapy my life would become better, but it seems like it only adds complications. Maybe I just need to accept how I am am and my past and just move on and save my money.
Posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 18:21:05
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy? » lemonaide, posted by Geegee on September 23, 2008, at 17:00:06
It seems like therapy is just one big assembly line, thank you Ford. They go from client to client, flying by the seat of their pants, hoping nobody will notice that they don't even remember you from last week. Say some umms, and make a point once in awhile while you hand over a hundred dollar check and they say thank you for not noticing they are just messed up like everyone else. I guess I got honesty, he can see a client today and forgot about all of what they talked about by tomorrow. Maybe I am more rememberable because I am so f*ck*d up, yeah me. He doesn't reflect on his clients, he just talks to them on the assembly line, hi, bye see you next week on the line. Day after day, week after week, year after year, same old sh*t, different client. blah blah blah.
Posted by LadyBug on September 23, 2008, at 19:31:24
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 18:13:54
I'm with you on the BS of it all!!!! I think after looking back on 11 years with my T, I came out just as damaged as when I started. The only thing I got out of it was hurt, frustration, confusion, dependence on something false and unavailable, pretty sure one sided love for the most part, lost my power-gave it to her for years and thousands of dollars wasted on a huge mind f*&?ing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wouldn't do therapy again if I was paid to do it! Can you tell how bitter about the whole process I am?
Everyone can have their opinion, and this is only mine! After feeling I could never let my T go, I haven't seen her for 4 months! It has given me time to see how much I did not need her. I think at best it was "rent a friend"!!!! Only with huge boundaries!!! Just to protect the T while they mess with our hearts and minds.
Sorry for being negative, I never in a million years saw the ending that I got! I thought I trusted her more than anyone in my whole life, I'm so sorry for all the hurt and pain I suffered by staying in therapy! I regret it as much as I do anything I've ever done in my life ;o(
I feel for you. I wish you peace with your decision. Please think of your needs most of all, not your T's needs. We feel responsible for how we make them feel but we aren't. That is their stuff to bare.
LadyBug
Posted by seldomseen on September 23, 2008, at 20:36:02
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 18:21:05
Okay, you've let him know your thoughts. He seems to have responded to them honestly, though he may have been a bit defensive.
Next week perhaps you should be very specific about what you would like for him to do prior to, during and after your therapy visit.
Wait and see if his behaviour changes. See if he responds to your needs before you build a strong enough case for termination.
Sometimes we just have to spell it out for them.
I think this has been a big rupture, however and will take some work on both your parts to get to the repair.
You have done some good work with this man and one rift will not undo that.
I do not think he thinks you are delusional or anything of the sort, I think he just may disagree with the way you are interpreting things. These disagreements can be managed and don't have to lead to the demonization and termination of therapy.
Seldom.
Posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 21:23:27
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy? » lemonaide, posted by seldomseen on September 23, 2008, at 20:36:02
Seldom,
I don't mean to sound rude, but how do you tell him I want you to remember what we did in therapy for the past year if he has forgotten? I can't give him a brain implant. Am I suppose to spend the next year telling him what he has forgotten so we can get to base one again? In my therapy all the issues are intertwined, and if he has forgotten a big deal of them, how can he be affective for me?
What is going on in your therapy or your life because I have noticed a huge difference in your words when posting the last few months.
Posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 21:29:03
In reply to Re: Possible therapy trigger~~~ » lemonaide, posted by LadyBug on September 23, 2008, at 19:31:24
Hi Ladybug,
It seems like we are beginning to wonder the same things about therapy. I just realized I spent my money today on a session about HIM and it was because I cared about him so it caused me a lot of heartbreak to tell him what I did, because of his problems. We didn't work on me. I feel like I just want to give up on therapy. Just give me the drugs to help me with my issues.
I will write more later, I need to get to bed.
Posted by Nadezda on September 23, 2008, at 21:33:52
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy? » seldomseen, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 21:23:27
I was wondering, lemonaide, how old would you say your T is?
Nadezda
Posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 21:37:21
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by Nadezda on September 23, 2008, at 21:33:52
He is 66, why?
Posted by Dinah on September 23, 2008, at 21:44:34
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 18:21:05
I can understand why you're angry, and hurt.
What your therapist is doing now doesn't negate who he was before.
I saw you change, Lemonaide. Maybe you didn't feel like you changed but that's not how you seemed from here. Seriously. You know I wouldn't lie about that. It's a shame this happened. He was a good therapist.
It's also a shame there isn't more continuing oversight. Someone who could see if he's having problems and take concrete steps about it. In private practice, that's pretty hard to arrange.
Posted by LadyBug on September 23, 2008, at 22:04:29
In reply to Re: Possible therapy trigger~~~ » LadyBug, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 21:29:03
Posted by Nadezda on September 23, 2008, at 22:08:59
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy? » Nadezda, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 21:37:21
I just wondered. That's all. I thought if he was in his late seventies or eighties, his slowing down would be very expectable--although of course not inevitable.
It doesn't mean anything one way or the other, though, because people can be unable to handle medical crises at different ages. While there can be unconscious reasons why you might feel abandoned right now, it's also possible that your T isn't himself. I'm not in any way casting doubt on your judgement-- any more, or less, than I would second-guess myself if I suddenly started to think there was a huge change in my T's sharpness-- when there wasn't any particular medical reason (ie one that's clear from any of his illnesses) for it.
I know my T does forget many things I've told him that seem important to me. Some people remember more concrete details from conversations than others-- so I just accept that as one of his particular characteristics. That may, as your T was noting, be something of particular importance to you, because of your background. If that's true, it may be that he isn't the right T for you now.
It might make sense, given how productive your relationship with your T is, though, either to consult someone and try to talk things through, or to wait before making any decision. But of course, if you feel that it's too painful, that's a decision that only you can make.
Nadezda
Posted by seldomseen on September 23, 2008, at 22:14:47
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy? » seldomseen, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 21:23:27
No you can't tell him to remember, but you can tell him to look at his notes before your sessions.
He can also refer to them during and take better notes during and review them afterward.
You can see if he improves now that you have fired a warning shot across his bow.
Of course, I will always support you in any decision that you make and I grieve with you that this current situation has come to pass.
I'm going out on a limb and saying there is something worth fighting for here with this guy.
Seldom
Posted by JoniS on September 23, 2008, at 23:58:31
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 18:21:05
Lemonaide,
Just wanted to say sorry for the pain you are in right now. What a difficult struggle. You are so struggling, and yet so many Babblers see that you need to take care of yourself - yet you want to put T before you. Wow what a moving session you had with T - you were brave to say those difficult things and loved him throguh his defensive responses. I just had to laugh - not funny though- when you said he was out the back door and in his car so quickly.
take care, I know this is very hard((((((((lemonaide)))))))))
Posted by Nadezda on September 24, 2008, at 9:30:57
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy? » Nadezda, posted by lemonaide on September 23, 2008, at 21:37:21
I think I would agree with seldomseen that the relationship with your current T is worth saving. That's really my main concern, that you're discarding a relationship that the two of you have put a lot of yourselves into, because of issues that are in the background.
I guess I just wonder if this isn't stemming from the anger and disappointment you have about what happened with your old T, and if you aren't to some degree blaming your T for how it turned out. It seems somehow that the feelings from the recent attempt to see your old T haven't been resolved, particularly because your T intervened in it, and by trying to help, perhaps ineffectually or even counter-productively, now seems to be somewhat to blame for its going so wrong.
I do think that trying to go back to that and work more on how upset and angry you are-- or how hurt and betrayed you feel-- even if it's very painful-- might be really important. Or maybe if it's too hard to talk about that, at least to try to talk about your feelings about your T's role in how it played out.
I'm really really sorry about how hurt and abandoned you feel.
Nadezda
Posted by muffled on September 24, 2008, at 12:16:34
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by Nadezda on September 24, 2008, at 9:30:57
I think we keep growing and learning our whole lives.
The things we go thru with our T's, we learn from.
T's are all diff. There's good and bad and everything in btwn. There are seasons to T.
I think if we can look at ourselves and know we are learning and growing, and functioning, then we are OK with therapy. Sometimes there are times when therapy makes things worse,its part of the process, but then we work thru it, and we are better off than when we began the hard part.
Sometimes therapy is more a matter of helping us to continue to function day to day.
I myself have times when I am very functional...then it starts to unravel. Then it gets better again. I am working towards having more better and longer periods of good functioning, shorter and less frequent bouts of problem behaviours/moods etc.
Its a slow process for me, and yes EXPENSIVE.
I think it is HUGE that the T/client fit 'works'.
I think its important for T's/clients to take time to have 'check in' sessions with some regularity, about what progress HAS been made, and to clarify what the goals are at this time.
If its always just 'damage control', then what can we do to reduce the chaos?
etc etc.
So yes, I think T can be VERY useful.
I also beleive it can easily get off track.
Its two people in privacy.....noone to regulate. So it IS up to us clients to be aware of what is happening in therapy, and thats where the 'check in' sessions ARE important.
Thats where I love the internet. Its gives us clients the opportunity to check in with others experienced with therapy, with what is happening(or not happening) in their therapy. Thereby adding a third(or more) party to observe what their perceptions of therapy are.
Therapy realtionships do not always work. Sometimes the fit doesn't work.
We clients need to keep our eyes open and ask questions.
It is OUR therapy after all.
M
Posted by Phillipa on September 24, 2008, at 12:56:28
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by muffled on September 24, 2008, at 12:16:34
I don't want to regress but what is the connection with heart surgery and memory? Never heard that. How many weeks has it been. Is he on cardiac meds as this could be affecting his memory too. I want what is best for you but think stay for a while. Love Phillipa
Posted by lemonaide on September 24, 2008, at 13:33:45
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by Phillipa on September 24, 2008, at 12:56:28
Phillipa,
Just being put under anesthesia can cause memory loss, not so much the heart surgury itself, unless they are put on a breathing machine. He just had a stent put in, not open heart. I think the rare virus he had might have had more to do with it, or from what I am reading maybe the treatment for the virus they used can cause memory loss.
Posted by lemonaide on September 24, 2008, at 13:34:35
In reply to Re: My session today and ?'s about what is therapy?, posted by muffled on September 24, 2008, at 12:16:34
Hey Muffy,
You wrote a poem I think. You sound good, are you good?
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