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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 22:41:02
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't » Dinah, posted by LadyBug on May 6, 2008, at 21:57:30
I think I'm already having some peace about it. I don't blame myself for wanting what I want from him. And I don't blame him if he doesn't feel he can provide it.
I don't want to quit. I won't quit. But I think maybe I should tell him that if I feel like I don't need what I think I need, I'll call him. And if he finds that he thinks he can provide what I need, he should call me. No hard feelings on my part, certainly.
The very second he can provide me with more good than harm, I'm willing to resume.
Assuming I go through with it. As I said, I'm feeling guilty already.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 22:46:10
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » sunnydays, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 22:37:12
I suppose I should say that I pretty much put him on the spot today and he doesn't usually flounder on stuff like that. He was planning to go with brazen denial all the way. But when I crossed my arms and said I didn't *need* Therapist X and I only needed X the Therapist, and when I started crying, and when he realized his good show wasn't working, he started trying to talk to me about it. But since he had deluded himself into thinking I wouldn't notice, he didn't know what to say.
He really was wonderful about it in a way. He acknowledged that there was a difference to me, that his attempts to keep his personal stuff out of the room may have backfired with me, that I did deserve him to be as present as I was used to him being, etc. etc.
It's impossible to be angry with him. He's trying.
Posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 23:27:47
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does...., posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 22:46:10
At least partly because of his heavily mysterious manner.
And partly because I'm so afraid that it will happen again.
And I guess I'm angry that he can't manage to keep a stable life. If I can manage it, why can't he? He really doesn't seem to be able to. And it affects me and my therapy.
And I guess I'm scared because I fear that this will finally be the end.
I don't really want him to tell me the specifics. I understand his wanting to keep his stuff not only out of the therapy room for clients sake. But I also understand wanting to protect himself. If he's already in pain, he won't want that invaded by my fears and my pain. I am pretty sure he lied to me years ago when he got married. There was a congratulatory card on his desk signed by all his coworkers and he said it was for his birthday. It seemed an odd card for a birthday, and when he got married several months later, I realized he must have been protecting his happiness from my fears about how it might affect me. I understood that. I respected that. I can understand that even if he wasn't afraid it would be bad for me to know, that he wouldn't want me to know.
I guess I should be prepared to take a leave from therapy if that's best for me, but to not absolutely assume it will be necessary until I talk to him more.
I'm going to try to be reasonable.
I get so sick of being reasonable. And I get so sick of his making my being reasonable necessary.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on May 6, 2008, at 23:37:29
In reply to I guess I'm panicking, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 23:27:47
Dinah,
I'm sorry you're feeling so bad. Sometimes the pressure to "be reasonable" can be crushing.Be nice to yourself?
-Ll
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 1:56:41
In reply to Re: I guess I'm panicking » Dinah, posted by llurpsienoodle on May 6, 2008, at 23:37:29
Yes.
I dunno. I think I'm going to try to forget the whole thing and start fresh. Sometimes a poor memory isn't half bad.
Posted by raisinb on May 7, 2008, at 11:24:56
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't » raisinb, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:59:05
I wish they would realize that the reason we're there is because of them--not what they do or how well their responses match a model of empathetic practice.
I once told my therapist in a letter, "I stay because of you." I don't know if she understood what I meant. She's always trying to figure out our relationship intellectually, as if it is a problem to be solved. I wish I could explain in a way to make her understand. Or maybe she does understand, just can't do it all the time. Or won't.
Anyway, I feel ya :(
Posted by raisinb on May 7, 2008, at 11:26:53
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't. » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on May 6, 2008, at 18:34:39
LLurpsie, I love your definition. In fact, since this is an issue my T and I struggle with constantly, I'm taking it in to show her.
One of the fondest memories I have about my therapist was a time she yelled at me. She gave me the old "what for" in no uncertain terms. I remember this more fondly than all the technically supportive things she's said over the years.
Posted by raisinb on May 7, 2008, at 11:29:46
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does...., posted by rskontos on May 6, 2008, at 20:13:13
RSK, I think Llurpsie's definition is wonderful but I'd add some things. I don't know if you definitely have to be sharing an emotion, but you need to have a sense that your therapist is "into" it, whether that's positive or negative.
My therapists and I have had terrible fights. She's cried, I've cried. This was not necessarily a good thing, and there were no warm fuzzy feelings--but I knew she was present when she snapped at me or cried. I knew she was there. "Into" it is the best way I can describe it.
When they are present, you can *affect* them. You can make them feel *something.* You're not isolated and powerless.
> presence look like. Dinah I am so sorry about your therapist checking out. But something in your post made me realize something. Maybe I have never had mine's presence. Can you and Llurpsie, or raisin or someone explain presence better so my muddled mind might grasp it?
>
> rsk
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 12:03:14
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » rskontos, posted by raisinb on May 7, 2008, at 11:29:46
Yes, that's quite true.
That was also the conclusion of "Every Day Gets A Little Closer: A Twice-told Therapy" by Irvin D. Yalom.That's why if my only choices are to have him yell at me, or be the attentively smiling superficial therapist, I'll take the yelling.
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 12:07:17
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » raisinb, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 12:03:14
Admittedly, I really do hate imperviousness. I was telling Dr. Bob the truth when I said his persona of invulnerability made me want to kick and yell and get any reaction at all from him. It's even worse with my therapist. I just can't bear it.
I worked with him last time to bring as much connection as possible to the relationship. I listened when he said to have faith, that we were in a trough in our relationship but that it would crest again. I can't say I was patient, but I stayed in there fighting all the way.
But I don't want to have to do that again. It hurt.
Thanks for really understanding that.
Posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:45:46
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » rskontos, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 20:44:23
Dinah I think you did very well actually with both. It has me thinking. Thanks for your description and you underestimate your ability with words.:)
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:46:54
In reply to presence, described » rskontos, posted by llurpsienoodle on May 6, 2008, at 20:30:24
Llurpsie,
That was perfectly described, thanks. This was more than I could hope for and alas shows me what I am missing.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:49:15
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't » seldomseen, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 20:21:39
Dinah, I think you shouldn't think about him so much, you have so much guilt, he is your therapist and he needs to be there for you with the presence. JMHO,
I am truly sorry you feel like this.
Seems like you were traumatized by him being there but not. No matter how hard for him, it seems like it hurt you alot.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:53:05
In reply to I guess I'm panicking, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 23:27:47
Dinah, I would panick too as I would not want too much personal information either. All your points are valid, about if you can manage then why can't he, must be a bigger is all i can say.
Good luck sweetie no matter what you say. I don't blame you for being sick and tired either.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:57:42
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » rskontos, posted by raisinb on May 7, 2008, at 11:29:46
raisinb, thanks for your addition, I agree with you about Llurpsies definition, I think it is beautifully expressed. I also think mine is not present. And this is why I have shut down. Initially I was in crisis mode and had to do something but now I need a connection. Maybe I will take her definition too but I have found him to be less than open to things like this so I am not sure what to do except to move on.
I told him during one of our discussion i never thought therapy would be so lonely. He did not comment on that.
So is he present. No I don't think so. YOu guys tell me if you told your therapist that you thought therapy was lonely would they at least make a comment?
rsk
Posted by muffled on May 7, 2008, at 15:21:04
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does...., posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 12:07:17
Sorry you having T troubles.
I am finding a new T.
Its hard when you care bout your T, cuz then it messes w/the therapy.
Yet you and your T have such a history, there's comfort in the familiar and safe.(how many male T's are ken dolls????)
I'm sorry your T has something going on.
Thats so hard :-(
The whole T relationship is crazymaking at best.
I hope you can chill some.
I hope things work out OK.
Take care,
M
Posted by Annierose on May 7, 2008, at 17:43:02
In reply to I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't., posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:00:46
I am late to this thread.
Try not to get ahead of yourself. Maybe you can ask him, without getting personal, if he thinks this is a temporary situation or one more likely to last a long time.
I know the difference you are describing. We all have days when we are not "present" in our own therapy sessions ... let alone our therapists.
Thinking of you.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 7, 2008, at 20:25:30
In reply to I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't., posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:00:46
I'm so sorry. And I get it, I really do. But I also remember several posts from you about fighting to relationship. So maybe you could at least discuss this with him a little more before making a decision?
((((((((Dinah))))))))
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:30:46
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't., posted by Annierose on May 7, 2008, at 17:43:02
My memories are getting hazy, but I did ask that and his reply indicated it wasn't short term.
I've got a plan to clarify things on Friday. Sort of a mental decision tree. Of course, I need his responses to fit into one of my anticipated paths.
I don't think I'd ever leave the relationship, and won't even take a break unless I think it's a wise choice.
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:35:40
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't. » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on May 7, 2008, at 20:25:30
I'll talk to him about it on Friday, and maybe even longer, although I'd rather just get it over with and not draw it out.
I think my ultimate goal is to preserve the relationship, not destroy it. At least on my end.
As it's gotten blurrier in my mind, I begin to have more hope that I imagined it all. It was such a surprise to me. I thought I'd just need to remind him to bring himself back to the room, and he would, and that would be the end of it.
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:37:10
In reply to Re: I guess I'm panicking » Dinah, posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:53:05
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:39:14
In reply to (((Dinah))), posted by muffled on May 7, 2008, at 15:21:04
Yeah. He's become part of my life.
Yet I've gotten much better at not calling him between sessions. At not requiring him to help me modulate my moods. I may be turning to risperdal instead, but it turns out ok. I always called Risperdal "therapist in a bottle".
Posted by backseatdriver on May 8, 2008, at 9:22:01
In reply to Re: (((Dinah))) » muffled, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:39:14
I adore the phrase "therapist in a bottle". So much better than my T's line, which is "the pill is a co-therapist." No way! The pill is the GENIE that comes out of the bottle, even when T does not show up in the room for therapy.
I would tell my T this, but he would be SOOO insulted...
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 12:22:27
In reply to Re: (((Dinah))) » muffled, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:39:14
Summary.
1) He's sorry he ever said anything. Stupid thing to be sorry about. I was already distraught because I knew he wasn't present. He should be sorry he wasn't able to be present and upset me. It wouldn't have made me less upset if he just folded his arms and refused to say anything, or if he'd have said everything was ok when I already knew it wasn't (in terms of my therapy not of his life). So he must mean he's sorry that he told me anything because now I'm upsetting him.
2) He says I'm not overreacting.
3) He doesn't know if he's able to be present. He hopes so and he's been trying, but it's up to me to say if he's succeeding and he hopes I give him feedback on that.
4) The issue may cause him to be unavailable to be my therapist long term. He can't quantify the chances.
5) He'd like to talk about this in person rather than on the phone, and doesn't want me to cancel all future sessions. But he's not actually going to say anything different in person. But he thinks that it's best (not) discussed in person. He doesn't have any openings today so he'll see me tomorrow.
6) He understands that I'm angry and he's sorry that I'm angry. I understand that he's got enough to deal with, and doesn't need me in addition, and I'm sorry to add to his distress.
That's it, folks. His big answer was that he should have been uncommunicative as to his being closed off and lacking in presence, even though it is a long term thing.
I'm full of Risperdal, and will continue to be for a while, I think.
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 12:27:16
In reply to I called, he returned call at my request, posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 12:22:27
Oh, and when I cancelled all future sessions, he said with all due outrage "You're kidding?!!!"
This despite the fact that he referred to everything all call as what a therapist should say to a client, what other therapists would say to clients, etc.
If he's going to pull our relationship to make me feel guilty about quitting, he can't simultaneously make our relationship out to be generic.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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