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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on April 1, 2008, at 20:45:31
There for a while I was feeling bored and dissatisfied during sessions. I thought that maybe it was time to graduate.
And now I'm not.
I'm not entirely sure why this might be. I'm feeling a lot of stress right now, so feel like I need him a bit more. But I was pretty stressed out before, and my needing him a bit more might reflect my change of attitude rather than the amount of stress.
My therapist's theory is that mastery of anything involves growth and learning, followed by plateaus where people consolidate what they've learned but during which a person might feel bored, followed by periods of growth again. This is based on work by someone or another in the seventies, originally applied to athletes.
I feel more like therapy has actually changed, and the change has engaged me again. But I'm not altogether sure what the change is, precisely. I got a glimmer of it when seldomseen said something like that therapy was still about her, but that it was also about we. But I can't quite pin it down.
I think what has changed might have something to do with relating with my therapist as a person, and not entirely within he prescribed role of therapist/mommy. Though he's still that of course. I don't think the change is entirely in my own mind, either.
A few months (or weeks perhaps) back, I was feeling so disconnected from him that I begged him to tell me something, anything really, about himself. He asked with a bit of edge in his voice if I meant did he f*rt? That sort of thing? And I said no, not that precisely. Just something that would let me see him as a real person. So he talked about things that he felt comfortable talking about. What he enjoyed doing, little things even. I made it clear that I wasn't asking for anything he didn't feel comfortable sharing, given that he's my therapist. And he didn't say anything shocking, or really anything I didn't know. But I did feel more connected afterwards.
Then a while after that, we were discussing my Sunday school class study of controversial topics. It turns out that the entire Sunday school class had similar views on these social topics. But as I was mentioning this with some relief, I stopped and said that I just realized I had absolutely no idea what views he held or if I was deeply insulting him. He asked if I really wanted to know, and I said yes, so he shared his political affiliation and his views on some of the topics we were discussing in Sunday school. As I expected, we were of different political parties, and we differed on a number of the issues while we agreed on others. And not only in the direction I'd have expected either. But since both of our belief systems embrace tolerance of differing viewpoints, it didn't really make a difference. And we ended up expressing mutual respect, and agreement about core values.
I don't know. Things just changed a bit after that. I don't know if he planned it as a therapeutic step. In fact after today I know for sure he didn't, because he has no idea what I'm talking about. He seems more willing to express opinions that might not agree with mine, or to be open about what he's thinking about me, and about whatever we're talking about. And it seems to me that I'm relating to him more as a person, and less as an object put there for my benefit.
Of course, I realize and he realizes that he is being paid to be there for my benefit. But what is benefiting me now seems to be a bit different from what used to benefit me.
I'm not sure if any of this makes any sense. I realized though that I had been a bit reluctant to talk about therapy, maybe because I don't really understand this new phase. Or maybe because I'm afraid I'm seeing an illusion. Which I may be, because my therapist seemed to have no idea what I was talking about. He also said it didn't matter what he thought was going on. Which I don't understand at all. Doesn't it matter if what I'm seeing is real?
I really am seeing this as opening a whole new different way to learn and grow. But I am having trouble pinning that down in my mind as well.
And of course it doesn't help that now I think I'm imagining it.
Posted by Daisym on April 2, 2008, at 0:13:43
In reply to I'm not bored anymore, posted by Dinah on April 1, 2008, at 20:45:31
I don't think you are imagining it. You have too many concrete examples.
I think the shift sounds nice though - the mutual sharing and trust between you. He obviously trusts your relationship and attachment enough to offer a different opinion or belief - and I think that speaks volumes about your relationship. I have this picture of the deep currents of feelings and understanding go back and forth between you. It sounds like anything other than boring.
Posted by seldomseen on April 2, 2008, at 5:23:30
In reply to I'm not bored anymore, posted by Dinah on April 1, 2008, at 20:45:31
"And it seems to me that I'm relating to him more as a person, and less as an object put there for my benefit."
I think you expressed this transition very well.
I've always found it interesting (in a good way!) that you refer to your therapist as therapist/mommy. My therapist has very much been my father object for as long as I can remember.
I wonder if what we are going through mimics the developmental stages that children go through in relation to their parents.
The dependence, the rebellion, the independence, the resolution and finally the growth into a mature relationship (well, I've read that's the way it's supposed to go, please disregard that I dreamed I shot my mother last night).
My therapy has been all about the so-called "corrective emotional experience". While, of course, we are not children in therapy, I do wonder if there is a corrective developmental experience there as well. Because we are adults (or just very very well therapized), we can recognize the shift in the dynamic.
Now we have to figure out how to negotiate the new relationship.
My therapist has also said that I have been willing to do the work required to make therapy successful. Good lord, it has been a tremendous amount of work.
So I guess, here we go again - back on the mountain, scaling that learning curve again.
However, I think it will be very nice to welcome this whole new person into my life.
OMG! what if I don't like him!
Seldom.
Posted by Fallsfall on April 2, 2008, at 8:32:35
In reply to I'm not bored anymore, posted by Dinah on April 1, 2008, at 20:45:31
It sounds great, Dinah.
Maybe it would be good to let it unfold and see what happens. Sometimes analyzing these kinds of things constrains their growth?
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2008, at 9:09:05
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore » Dinah, posted by Fallsfall on April 2, 2008, at 8:32:35
I think I'm constitutionally incapable of not analyzing. :)
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2008, at 9:25:53
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore » Dinah, posted by Daisym on April 2, 2008, at 0:13:43
I think you hit the nail on the head. I think *he* trusts *me* in a different way. To be able to see who he is rather than who I need him to be, perhaps? Or maybe he trusts my boundaries. I guess I'll never know that part of it.
He also seems to be looking for different things from me. Like he's challenging me more now on my body language. Or to feel more confident in my interpersonal relationships. I've always said that it looks like he thinks I'm more unwell than I think I am. Maybe he's shifted to my viewpoint.
I think maybe there are opportunities to grow and change in this sort of shift. Although I suppose there will also be times when I need him to be my therapist/mommy, and I suspect he won't refuse to do that.
Posted by raisinb on April 2, 2008, at 9:35:46
In reply to I'm not bored anymore, posted by Dinah on April 1, 2008, at 20:45:31
I think that's exciting. I agree with Seldom that it sounds like a developmental shift.
I had a therapist friend who used to say, "the thing about new experiences is, you haven't had them yet." It's a cliche, but it is true--when you are experiencing big changes, you cannot pin them down, just because they require different terms and ways of thinking than the ones you're used to.
I have had glimmers of such a shift in the last year or so of my therapy. I wonder the same thing, "what if I don't LIKE her now that I really SEE her?" I think I still like (even love) her in those moments, but there is a profound disappointment in seeing that this person is only human after all, that she can't magically meet all my needs and fix me instantly with her love.
I don't know if I'd be able to handle hearing about her political beliefs yet, though. My biggest secret fears are 1) she doesn't really like me and I'm not important to her, and 2) she's a Republican. Maybe only in my head would these be equally scary...:)
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2008, at 10:12:00
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on April 2, 2008, at 5:23:30
> "And it seems to me that I'm relating to him more as a person, and less as an object put there for my benefit."
>
> I think you expressed this transition very well.It's good to hear that. I was a bit worried when he seemed nonplussed by my observations.
> I've always found it interesting (in a good way!) that you refer to your therapist as therapist/mommy. My therapist has very much been my father object for as long as I can remember.
Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that I had a father who may have been difficult, but with whom I was very close. I *have* noticed that since Daddy's death, I'm more likely to see a father in my therapist than I used to. But my therapist inspires mother thoughts, I think. It's not that he's mushy or anything. In some ways he could be seen as a bit distant and firm. But he's also soft.
> I wonder if what we are going through mimics the developmental stages that children go through in relation to their parents.
>
> The dependence, the rebellion, the independence, the resolution and finally the growth into a mature relationship (well, I've read that's the way it's supposed to go, please disregard that I dreamed I shot my mother last night).lol. I understand *that* dream all too well. And I must confess that I think about my relationship with my mother less as a mature one than as a role reversal. The only thing that scares me is that a mature relationship seems to have an ending in it somewhere. Or a lessening of need. I'm not at all mature in that I cling to him, and cling to needing him.
> My therapy has been all about the so-called "corrective emotional experience". While, of course, we are not children in therapy, I do wonder if there is a corrective developmental experience there as well. Because we are adults (or just very very well therapized), we can recognize the shift in the dynamic.
Better than he can, apparently! He must have good instincts, though. Even if he doesn't make a conscious choice.
> Now we have to figure out how to negotiate the new relationship.
I'm really excited about this new phase of therapy, as long as it doesn't lead to abandonment or growth resulting in termination. I really see immense potential in learning new things.
> My therapist has also said that I have been willing to do the work required to make therapy successful. Good lord, it has been a tremendous amount of work.
Yep. And I was dragged kicking and screaming into personal growth all the way. :)
> So I guess, here we go again - back on the mountain, scaling that learning curve again.
>
> However, I think it will be very nice to welcome this whole new person into my life.
>
> OMG! what if I don't like him!
>
> Seldom.:-)
He's let enough of himself seep into the room that nothing he's expressed lately is a huge shock. I know that he isn't someone I'd choose from a group to be my friend. But I have grown to care about him, both the admirable and the less so. :) (At least within the therapy walls). And I think it's mutual.
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2008, at 10:15:09
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on April 2, 2008, at 5:23:30
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2008, at 10:22:21
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore » Dinah, posted by raisinb on April 2, 2008, at 9:35:46
> I had a therapist friend who used to say, "the thing about new experiences is, you haven't had them yet."
I really like that! And it's a mark of my trust in him that I am not terrified of this new experience.
I think it helps that I know he cares about me. I may not be who he would have chosen as a friend either. And I know I irritate him on occasion. But if only because of sheer persistence and length of time, he does care about me.
And it also helps that I already suspected he was a Democrat. And that I wasn't overly fearful that people I like and care about be Democrats, since many people I like and care about *are* Democrats.
You know, we really aren't that scary. :)
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2008, at 10:22:48
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore » Dinah, posted by raisinb on April 2, 2008, at 9:35:46
Posted by raisinb on April 2, 2008, at 10:24:40
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2008, at 10:22:21
Posted by rskontos on April 2, 2008, at 12:24:07
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2008, at 10:22:21
Dinah, your post helped me see that my therapist has for a while let me see alot of himself that I did not realize he was doing. We often exchange ideas when I won't talk about me. I guess it has been his way of helping me connect and I did not see the value of it. You have helped me connect to that value. Sometimes he will ask do you want me to go first or you. This will occur if there is a long silent pause. If I want I can jump in to re-route the discussions or I can simply answer his questions. Either way, in looking back I see the process he was taking. So I thank you. You made me not be so frustrated with him as I have been lately.
We have intelluctual discussions and share information from various websites I find and forward to him and he always thanks me for passing the information on to him. I seem now to know what he will like to view. And he always does like it. Plus we often discuss the presidential issues. I do know where he stands. It is interesting that we have had these discussion and I am comfortable with them. We don't agree always but enjoy the debate. We also share music critics and books. I have watched movies he suggested and he had watched shows I have mentioned like In Treatment. I did not realize how the dynamics of our relationship had changed until I read your thread.
Is that what you perhaps mean. That the maybe the dynamics were changing? I guess I do see my therapist more as a person and I just did not recognize it as such. I owe you a big thanks.
I think this post is not so much a support to you as a thanks, a big one. But I hope you get something out of it. I got alot from yours.
rsk
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2008, at 17:27:53
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore DInah » Dinah, posted by rskontos on April 2, 2008, at 12:24:07
I'm really glad, rsk. :)
I'm always glad if something I say reaches someone. And hearing what other people say helps me sort things out in my mind.
I think that sometimes it is definitely appropriate to use disclosure to help bond, or to help a client stay focused and present and connected. Do you feel like he's doing it too much, or changing the focus of the session away from you? I think if it feels right to you, in context, you should trust that. But if it doesn't feel right, you can trust that too.
It sort of sounds as if the honeymoon is over with your therapist? I think I remember that in my therapy. Well, if there was a honeymoon at all. I found therapy very frustrating for a while. It felt like he misunderstood every single thing I said. Fortunately, trying to get him to understand helped me understand.
I hope you have a nice vacation! How long will you be gone?
Posted by Fallsfall on April 3, 2008, at 7:52:28
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore » Fallsfall, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2008, at 9:09:05
> I think I'm constitutionally incapable of not analyzing. :)
>
>Yes, Dinah. I know. I can relate all too well...
My real therapy progress began when I was able to start to "be" in therapy and analyze less. It was a new way of doing therapy for me. I was able to do it. Some of it had to do with my confidence that my therapist was "smart" enough to figure out how to help me (and that I was not able to intellectually get myself out of my mess). Giving him more power was a key for me. Since things are shifting in therapy for you, you might consider this shift, too.
Scary, isn't it?
Posted by rskontos on April 3, 2008, at 8:00:29
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore DInah » rskontos, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2008, at 17:27:53
I will gone a week. And I think you are right the honeymoon is over. And maybe you are right in trying to get myself understood maybe I can get insight. One of my inners cooked up this plan for today's session so I am glad I read your post before I went. I told myself I needed to see if you had responded to my post before I went. I had to take a xanax to get that plan out of my head so I could sleep. I still had a weird flashback involving my father but that i will say for another time. anyway, your words bring me back to a grounded place and I thank you again.
See babble can help maybe save me from doing something stupid, not if someone else takes over but at least I am up to trying now.
take care and I will let you know how it goes.
rsk
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2008, at 9:10:46
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore » Dinah, posted by Fallsfall on April 3, 2008, at 7:52:28
Our therapists are quite a bit different though.
My therapist has shown no real interest in my handing more power over to him. He would, and has, place it firmly back in my lap.
I'm really glad you're doing so well, Falls. I really can't say that I *am* doing that well.
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2008, at 9:13:00
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore DInah, posted by rskontos on April 3, 2008, at 8:00:29
I'm glad if I was able to help you stay grounded enough to think carefully about what you were going to do.
I'd love to hear how it went.
Posted by rskontos on April 3, 2008, at 18:42:09
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore DInah » rskontos, posted by Dinah on April 3, 2008, at 9:13:00
Well you helped me just walk in a say it. Which by the way was a better plan than I had prior to reading your post. Me and my one that is in denial we need therapy had convinced me that he would think I had made it all up that I dissociated during the last session and I could get mad and storm out or just leave convinced he did not get it and be done with him. But that is not what happened at all. T had thoughtful questions that tried to help me figure out why I thought I left. If the trigger was the discussion of an email I had sent him. He actually just told me what we discussed. Now this did not bring any of it to light except a few things. What I notice he does is to vary the questions if I seem to get off topic. By that I mean, he will let me get off the topic but in a round about way get back to the issue at hand. He finally said that he believes ( I was pretty shaky and told him so, I was loose and jelly like and I told him I might leave again soon as I felt just like I did when I awoke in my car, very disconnected with the world at large, a pretty good indicator I might zone out), that I was still having major trust issues with him and most people. That I must been switching off and on to keep up a chatter about stuff that doesn't lead to much disclosure. And that makes sense. He said that for him he thought most people have a light side to them, a serious side, etc but he said I have begun to notice that yours are obvious extremes, (buried deep) that have been developed as responses to defenses to help protect you over the years. And they run much deeper than I previously thought. I never realized that during one of these times you were so animated that you might not in fact be here. I think maybe he got it today. He asked what I thought was the trigger. I said trying to get myself understood, trying to understand myself myself and just talking about it in general. A flashback I had last night involving my father, a first and just needing therapy in general. I don't know. I guess. So this is how it went.
I also realized today I can't talk the whole time about stuff I have to have the lightness mingled in or I would explode I think. But at some point it might need to be more serious to keep me here the whole time. I am not sure.
that is all. He asked how I thought the break would be, I said I honestly don't know.
rsk
thanks for asking me to update.:)
Posted by Dinah on April 3, 2008, at 21:08:50
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore DInah » Dinah, posted by rskontos on April 3, 2008, at 18:42:09
It sounds as if he responded well and the session went ok?
I think the progression with me was to not expect much then to think he was wonderful then to be very disappointed in him, then repeat. It was really hard for me to come to a reasonably consistent way to view him. I'm not sure I'm there yet, really.
Posted by Fallsfall on April 4, 2008, at 18:44:14
In reply to Re: I'm not bored anymore » Fallsfall, posted by Dinah on April 3, 2008, at 9:10:46
It's not so much that I gave him power, it was more like I stopped trying to orchestrate everything. I stopped preparing so much for the sessions - which meant that things were more spontaneous (which is really hard for me). I stopped trying to figure out what he was trying to do, and just let him do it (whatever it was).
This is the end of the thread.
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