![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 68. Go back in thread:
Posted by seldomseen on September 28, 2007, at 6:02:48
In reply to I'm not feeling well, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2007, at 2:30:14
I'm sad that things aren't going well down in NO. I'll be thinking about you.
Stay safe if you can't stay strong. This will pass.
Take care
Seldom.
Posted by antigua3 on September 28, 2007, at 6:53:02
In reply to I'm not feeling well, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2007, at 2:30:14
Dinah,
you are so important to all of us here, and have been a beacon of reason, insight and support, that we all hope you feel better. Do what you have to do for YOU at this time; it will only help you, your son and husband.
pls take care,
antigua
Posted by Daisym on September 28, 2007, at 7:56:42
In reply to I'm not feeling well, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2007, at 2:30:14
I'm closer than you think...and you know this is a pretty good place to recharge. It is raining ever so slightly and I hear the birds. I can see the boats on the bay and there is a deck to just sit and watch them. Even from this desk, I can see across the sandy neck - it is so beautiful. I wish you were coming...you can still change your mind. But if you can't be here in body, maybe send your spirit to sit with us and feel how much we love you.
Let's meet up and chat soon. You aren't alone.
Daisy
Posted by JoniS on September 28, 2007, at 10:05:17
In reply to I'm not feeling well, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2007, at 2:30:14
Dinah,
I hope today is going better for you and that you are able to determine what physically and otherwise is going on.
Please take care of yourself. Do something you enjoy. Maybe even go see Daisy - that souunds like a nice retreat!
I will be thinking of you and saying a prayer.
Joni
Posted by Poet on September 28, 2007, at 11:05:42
In reply to I'm not feeling well, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2007, at 2:30:14
Hi Dinah,
I wish I could come up with something to trick your mind to stop believing you are full of ugly things. Where is a magic mirror when we need one?
Trying to send a magic mirror through cyber space.
Poet
Posted by LadyBug on September 28, 2007, at 15:13:11
In reply to Re: I'm not feeling well » ClearSkies, posted by LadyBug on September 27, 2007, at 15:36:34
Posted by twinleaf on September 28, 2007, at 16:12:32
In reply to Re: I'm not feeling well » twinleaf, posted by RealMe on September 27, 2007, at 22:01:25
I think it's great that you can go to these conferences, and, as you mentioned a while ago, actually CHAT with your own therapist! Of course, you are a colleague also, and that probably comes to the fore at those times.
Although I have had a year of residency training in psychiatry, along with four in neurology, I'm not really a colleague. so I can't quite imagine chatting. I'm very interested in the conferences, though- both because of myself, and because I see a lot of patients with major problems long-term, and whatever psychiatric knowledge I have is very helpful in helping them deal with the enormous problems and losses they face.
As far as my former analyst talking about termination is concerned: he threw me out of his office very suddenly, almost yelling at me to "get out!". I was so hurt and traumatized by this, as I was very attached to him, had been with him for four years (five days a week), and had no inkling that this was going to happen. And now he is the keynote speaker on termination, and the importance of doing it so that the patient does not feel abandonned! In some ways, I feel that I'd like to hear what he has to say; in other ways, I feel that it will hurt me again- and also, that it might disturb him to see me in the audience. Well, it's not until November 11, so I have time to think about it.
Posted by RealMe on September 28, 2007, at 21:21:02
In reply to Hearing Ts give presentations » RealMe, posted by twinleaf on September 28, 2007, at 16:12:32
What do you mean you are not a colleague??? Of course you are. You have more education and training than most psychatrists. Most do a three year residency unless they also want to work with kids, and then do extra. So what the heck. Don't diminish what you have accomplished, okay, please??
I can't believe your analyst did that to you. Do you have any inkling of what was going on with him that he would do such a thing???? GEES; I will go with you to the conference, and we can sit in the front row and just stare at him, rather glare at him. What kind of crap is that what he did, and then HE is going to present on termination. Wow; my last therapist right before the one I have now got really hostile with me because I got angry with him and told me I should find someone else. I convinced him to continue wiht me, and I should have left then. The last straw was after I did ECT and felt totally traumatized by it as well as damaged, that he started to get pissy again, and so I found my current therapist who is an analyst and has lots of experience working with persons with with csa issues. I really lucked out. I hope you like who you have now. Are you still doing more residency training???
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by RealMe on September 28, 2007, at 22:13:32
In reply to I'm not feeling well, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2007, at 2:30:14
I am thinking about you even if you don't post, and I want you to know I care. Sometimes we all need a rest from this struggle. It is sure better than giving up which many of us feel like doing too from time to time. If it wasn't for people like you, I would just want to throw in the towel. There are many good people here who care about you.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by twinleaf on September 28, 2007, at 22:26:23
In reply to Re: Hearing Ts give presentations » twinleaf, posted by RealMe on September 28, 2007, at 21:21:02
What he did was so amazing and horrible that, not only was I traumatized to the point where I was barely making it through my work, but I was having a terrible time eating and sleeping. My husband would make easy-to-eat food, like oatmeal and fruit, and I would throw it right up. For months I alternated between long bouts of crying, equally long bouts of rage, blaming myself for being a terrible patient, blaming him for being a terrible analyst, longing for the good analyst he had been previously- just on and on. I have a very good new analyst, like you, and am starting to feel a lot better now.
The new analyst was completely horrified, as well. He knows this man, and I think he also still has trouble believing it- he keeps saying "tragic", "very sad" and things like that- although I have felt from the beginning that he has believed everything I've told him. We've just come to the conclusion that some kind of powerful negative counter-transference was going on with him, and that he didn't take the proper steps of consultation, or, if necessary, a supportive transfer of me to someone else. He is a senior training analyst- probably too arrogant to do that. Instead, he really acted crazy. It sounds like your previous one, while not as bad as mine, was pretty bad, also- and harmful. Thank goodness we both have such good new ones.
I've finished my training- the last year being a teaching fellowship in academic medicine given by the Harvard School of Public Health; I see patients, teach medical students and run our residency training program in a medical center associated with a medical school. I didn't mean that I feel I'm less well-trained; it's just that very few neurologists go to these psychoanalytic conferences, so at times I feel a bit different from the others. I do think all sorts of doctors could benefit from going to some of them. The best of them are really wonderful.
If I do go to that conference, I'm afraid that if I sat in the front row and stared at him, which I sometimes feel like doing, he might break down and start yelling AGAIN! I think I'll have to slip in the back.
.
Posted by obsidian on September 28, 2007, at 22:36:54
In reply to I'm not feeling well, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2007, at 2:30:14
hi dinah
I hope things are going better for you
((((dinah))))
-obsid
Posted by Dinah on September 28, 2007, at 22:42:38
In reply to I'm not feeling well, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2007, at 2:30:14
and thank you. I really appreciate all your thoughts.
My blood sugar's been a bit off since my binge, and I had a mild ear infection. Plus the constant stimulation of the puppy and the usual work stress made worse by the fact that it's been so hard for me to work when I'm sick.
But I think I'm beginning to realize that my experiences with the puppy are also bringing up a lot of feelings from my adolescence. Not so nice feelings. Feelings I'm ashamed of. My therapist says you don't have to feel ashamed of feelings, and I know I say that to others. But it's hard to apply to myself.
I told my therapist today that I ought to quit seeing him for at least a while, because I just can't seem to remember who he is to me. And he said that even if I couldn't remember who he is to me, that he could still *be* who he is to me until I remember. And that I will remember. I always remember. I'm trying to think that through. It somehow felt warm.
Twinleaf, it is so ironic that your old analyst is telling others what to do with termination. I would be furious, I think.
Everything seems so far away, still. And confused. But I do appreciate you guys and what I find here.
Posted by twinleaf on September 28, 2007, at 22:57:35
In reply to I'm sorry, posted by Dinah on September 28, 2007, at 22:42:38
I'm so glad you posted. Are you running a fever? It's only a guess, but the kind of exhaustion and lack of energy to engage in therapy and other important things in your life which you have been describing sound a lot like you aren't well physically. Do you have good medical people caring for you? Ruling things out, and taking good care of things they find?
Posted by MidnightBlue on September 28, 2007, at 23:19:54
In reply to I'm sorry, posted by Dinah on September 28, 2007, at 22:42:38
Dinah,
No reason to be sorry. I'm glad you posted, too. Look on the bright side. There are no hurricanes in the gulf right now!
Take care, love, and forgive yourself. I think the teen years are best forgotten.
MB
Posted by RealMe on September 29, 2007, at 0:17:19
In reply to Re: Hearing Ts give presentations » RealMe, posted by twinleaf on September 28, 2007, at 22:26:23
Not if I was there too; if he yelled, I would yell right back at him and tell him he had a lot of nerve talking about termination. Of course I wouldn't mention you or anyone in particular. I can take on the best of them. I have had to learn to do that when testifying in court. I love it when attorneys try to mess with me. I laugh inside, but I have to stay focused and be appropriate.
Fact of the matter is, if you were up front, you would probably really unnerve him. I know that though my T said he was happy I would be there to cheer him on when he presented, it was sort of uncomfortable to see him nervous. He was presenting to a group of around 30--attorneys, psychiatrists, and about three of us were psychologists. I never said anything to him about it, but later I thought, well at least he can be human.
My previous T is not an analyst. He specializes in consultation-liason psychiatry, and I went to him initially because my body was falling apart so to speak. He was not even very good about that as the first thing he said to me was that I did not have a fatal disease or fatal medical problem which I knew, but I was never sick, and all of a sudden I found myself taking around 8 or 9 pills a day plus two inhalers, one twice per day, and one once per day. I had to have four surgeries that year, and I still keep saying, this is not me. Well he got better, but when I started to talk about csa, he should have nicely said I need to work with someone else. Instead, he was narcissistic enough to think he could work with me himself. After all, he has published quite a bit, and he was head of the mental health division of the AMA, etc etc etc. I think I have said that my currnet analyst says he thinks I did the ECT as a "gift" for my previous T as I wanted to try to do what he wanted me to do. That is really sick. So, no I only saw this guy for two years and usually once to twice per week. I still miss him in some ways, and I find that interesting. He had his good points, but he certainly was triggered by some things that I said like that anyone who administers ECT is sadistic. He used to be an ECT doc. He was also pissed when I told him my pulmonary doctor and a neurologist expressed concerns about my doing ECT and why would I be willing to potentially harm myself cognitively and throw away 23 years of education. I know I won't be totally okay cognitively from the ECT, but I am in pretty good shape anymore. I sometimes can't remember if I already said something, and so I hope people forgive me if I repeat myself. I journal daily so I don't forget the big picture. I guess I better get to bed. Four reports to do tomorrow.
So, if your old analyst started yelling at you, he would only embarrass himself, and he would be too proud to do that. The jerk. I can tell you that when I was doing my postdoc training at Menninger's, one of the nastiest people there was Walt Menninger. He was such an *ss and did not care that 90+% of the staff at Menninger's did not want to go to Houston, Texas and affilate with Baylor. So, he did it anyway, and Menninger's lost all of their senior analysts. I remember going to a graduation after I had graduated and saying to him why not affliate with KU med center as the feeling was that Menninger's would not survive as free standing. I think they could have if they had pushed the Topeka Psychoanalytic Institute to operate on it's own. Menninger's suppported it 100%. But Walt's response to me was, "Why would we affilate with KU? They aren't ranked in anything." At the time, Menninger's would go back and forth with McLean in terms of No 1 or No 2 ranking. What a jerk he was. The State of Kansas was even willing to give them a huge grant to stay, but Walt was set to go. So, I immagine Dr. Karl Menninger, Dr. Will Menninger, and Dr. C.F. Menninger (sons and father) who started Menninger's in the 20's are flipping in their graves. Dr. Walt is one of Dr. Will's sons. Enough. I won't be able to go to sleep if I think too much about that jerk. AGGH. So, goodnight for now.
RealMe
Posted by RealMe on September 29, 2007, at 0:20:37
In reply to I'm sorry, posted by Dinah on September 28, 2007, at 22:42:38
Dinah
If nothing else, please keep your therapist. This is someone who really cares, and he is correct. He will remember. Here is wishing you a speedy recovery.
RealMe
Posted by twinleaf on September 29, 2007, at 1:15:34
In reply to Re: Hearing Ts give presentations » twinleaf, posted by RealMe on September 29, 2007, at 0:17:19
It's a shame about Menninger's going to Texas and losing its ranking and character. The analyst I have now trained there for his psychiatric residency when it was considered the best place to be trained- he's 63 now, so it's been a while. I gather all those other Menningers were really nice, as well as being excellent psychiatrists and analysts- I didn't know there was a nasty one as well!
You should take my place at that conference! I tend to avoid confrontation, when it would be better for me to speak up, and I also tend to feel I need to take care of people even when they have hurt me- I'm working on all these things, but I'm not there yet. If I do go, I promise a report about him! I know he is going to be very unnerved if he sees me. I'm actually kind of worried about his breaking down in front of everyone, because I really do think he broke down in front of just me- he really acted crazy and belligerant, jumping out of his chair, coming right over to me, looming over me. All the while he was saying things like that he didn't feel safe with me, that I was the first patient who made him feel unsafe, that I was going to attack him sexually (he was an enormous man- 6'5" and powerfully built, and I am thin and have skinny muscles, and anyway, how is that done?) The whole thing ended with him pointing at his door and yelling over and over for me to get out. Even though I've gradually disentangled myself from him emotionally, and feel quite safe, myself, in my relationship with the new analyst, I dread the possibility that if I show up, he might react the same way just by seeing me. That's a real fear- though I know it's not realistic.
Posted by RealMe on September 29, 2007, at 1:52:59
In reply to Re: Hearing Ts give presentations » RealMe, posted by twinleaf on September 29, 2007, at 1:15:34
No not all the Menninger's were nice people. My old T there was in the same residency class with Dr. Walt. HUM. Dr. Karl could cause people to shake in their boots. Before I went back to school to work on my doctorate and after I got out of Menninger's as a patien, I went to work at the Kansas State Reception and Diagnostic Center for the Kansas Department of Corrections. It was a great learning experience as Dr. Karl would come for grand rounds. There were psychologists, social workers, and psychiatrists there, and residents would come and do some training/work there. This was in the mida 80's. So, I had had lunch with Dr. Karl as a patient, but he didn't remember this thank goodness. The residents would be ready to wet their pants when he came as he was an old grudmogeon. Lots of great stories about him as he really cared about the patients. Anyway, I can remember the first time I spoke up and challenged something he said, and he looked at me, and then from then on we were on the best of terms. So many of the residents were scared to challenge him. He would turn to me after that and aske what I thought. He could be way more intimidating than Dr. Walt. When I decided to go back to school, before I left I was at a round table discussion with him, and he was so happy for me that I was going back to school to get my doctorate. He had been encouraging me, and when he heard I was going to Chicago, he thought that was great too and asked if I knew he had gone to Chicago too. I did know that. This was the last time I saw him alive. He died a couple years later I believe. Yes, Menninger's saved my life as a patient, and is the best place I ever was as far as training and work was concerned. I left there, partly because I could see the handwriting was on the wall. Interesting that your analyst trained there for residency. Yes, my second year as a postdoc, they were ranked number one in the country. Those were some of the best days of my career as the team approach was at it's best there. I loved how everyone worked togehter.
RealMe.
I know; I am still up; I need to get myself to bed!!!!
Posted by twinleaf on September 29, 2007, at 2:22:44
In reply to Re: Hearing Ts give presentations » twinleaf, posted by RealMe on September 29, 2007, at 1:52:59
Those are wonderful memories to have, You should be so proud to have grown from being a patient so much in need of help to a resident whom Dr. Karl respected, liked and supported. I don't know too much about my analyst, and may never, as he has quite firm boundaries, but I get the feeling that he feels about Menningers' just the way you do- very, very positively. It's so sad to have lost a place that was so unique and valuable. I don't think there's anywhere comparable to go now for those who need really intensive, long-term care. I don't think Riggs or McLean are in the same league. Probably financial and insurance realities would make Menningers' impossible today. It is great to have had those wonderful learning experiences there, though. Just wondering- has anyone written about the old Menningers? I don't mean biographies, but about the hospital itself.
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2007, at 8:56:06
In reply to so glad you posted » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on September 28, 2007, at 22:57:35
No fever. It was an outer ear infection. Painful but not serious. I had to walk around for a couple of days with cotton wadded down my ear, which added to the discomfort, but it's out now and I'm feeling better.
I'm not sure about the diabetes. My internist just seems interested in the quarterly readings, which were above the recommended last time, but not enough that he did anything but tell me to watch my food and exercise. He doesn't seem inclined to worry about day to day readings. I'm not sure, except for this time, that I've been honest with him about my occasional binges, and I'm not sure if they do any harm. But none of my doctors, including the citywide expert in diabetes that my mother sees, seems inclined to do anything else.
I think it's mainly stress. My health always takes a downturn when I'm stressed. I went from prediabetes to diabetes in a period of stress. I developed kidney stones after a period of stress. Migraines of course come with stress. I even had a close friend who worked at my office who died after a time when we both were very stressed at work. They never conclusively pinned down what the direct cause was, as far as I know. But I think she wasn't in good shape to deal with it.
There's a thought. I probably connect work stress and death now.
Soooo... I don't know. I don't know the difference really. I suspect my doctors think I'm a hypochondriac.
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2007, at 8:57:07
In reply to Re: I'm sorry » Dinah, posted by RealMe on September 29, 2007, at 0:20:37
Thank you.
I'm just so tired.
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2007, at 9:02:51
In reply to Re: I'm sorry » Dinah, posted by MidnightBlue on September 28, 2007, at 23:19:54
We are indeed blessed by the hurricane situation right now.
I think the teen years are best forgotten too, except when they rear their ugly head and cause me to react in ways that are out of proportion to what's going on.
I think right now quitting work is the most important goal in my life. My social security statement came in, and I realized I have another sixteen years to retirement. That seems like a long and unpleasant lifetime from now. And I know that I can't both quit and continue therapy.
But...
I really liked how he said he could continue to be the person who is important to me, could continue to do those things, even when I can't feel them. Maybe because it's a way of thinking I understand. Love is a verb.
But I'm not sure it means as much if I don't remember who he is to me.
Posted by muffled on September 29, 2007, at 10:05:59
In reply to Re: I'm sorry » MidnightBlue, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2007, at 9:02:51
Bless you.
I'm so sorry your so stressed right now.
And I wonder if depression is rearing its ugly head.
When it hits me, I get so tired...
You've got alot going on :-(
Is your T sliding scale at all? Would he consider it just for 1x//wk, or even bi-monthly?
Like you need to hear this, but would it be possible to find a cheaper T? You could still visit with oldT mebbe 1x/mo...
Just trying to find some ideas for you.
As for the dear pup....is he getting calmer, or still high energy and dominance time to time?
Maybe there's diff dog out there for you, that needs you?
The pup has been somewhat trained which is a bonus for a new owner...
Sigh...as for sons....fotunately mine has actually showed some humanity...WHY..I don't know, not like I have a clue what I am doing....
I just so sorry you hurting Dinah, and I hope you can take any and all offers of help from friends/family. You need to take extra good care of yourself. You help others lots, now its your turn.
BTW, I think your T is right....he will be 'back'. My T keeps telling me, 'I do not change'....ya right...
Its confusing.
But then we have a good appt and things feel better some again.
Take good care dinah,
Muffled
Posted by MidnightBlue on September 29, 2007, at 13:25:28
In reply to Re: I'm sorry » MidnightBlue, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2007, at 9:02:51
Dinah,
I will just say this about working. I wished I had worked a bit more so I would have qualified for disability. (I have complex physical as well as mental health problems.) So work while you can for as long as you can AS LONG AS it doesn't do you harm.
That is the big thing. Don't stress yourself to the point where work is making you sick. Could you take a 3 month leave of absence from work? If you suddenly get better and are enjoying life more, don't go back. At least not at that job. If things are the same or worse consider going back to work.
MB
Posted by RealMe on September 29, 2007, at 13:41:30
In reply to memories of Menningers » RealMe, posted by twinleaf on September 29, 2007, at 2:22:44
Actually there is a book written about Menninger's by a guy who came to research when I was a patient there. He started working on the book in 1982, I believe, and it was copyright in 1990. Dr. Karl Menninger saw the draft before he died and was not happy with it as there was little focus on the hospital and research done there after the mid 60's. There is only one brief chapter devoted to the time period from the mid 60's to around 1980. I found that rather sad. So did lots of folks, but the old history is very interesting.
The book is called, "Menninger, The Family and the Clinic" and was written by Lawrence J. Friedman, copyright 1990 and published by Alfred A. Knopf, Inc. It is the book that Dr. Karl hoped would tell the story of Menninger's, and for the most part it does. Friedman was given access to all sorts of information and letters, etc that no one else had seen.
RE being a patient there in the early to mid 80', I had very good insurance for mental health, $1 million dollar policy strictly for mh services. So, cost was not an obstacle. It was traditional at that time to offer long-term inpatient psychiatric treatment and analyasis to people. So, I was there for 2.75 years. I had lots of problems with dissociation the first year, but not later. I wasn't anymore crazy than I am now!!! LOL. I entered the hospital in June 1981 and left the hospital in March 1984 and was in outpatient treatment until 1988. I went back to outpatient treatment in around 1990 or 1991 and continued with outpatient treatment until 1994 when I finished my postdoctoral training. I was not on med's since around 1992. Even when I was a postdoctoral fellow in clinical psychology, they were still getting famous people as patients, very wealthy millionaire type people and movie stars or their kids. This has always been the case over the years from the beginning. So, yes they were hurting some financially, but they also had huge endowments of multimillion dollars left to them by wealthy families. And, had they affiliated with KU med center they would have been fine. Walt Menninger was one narcissistic prick in my opinion. So, they moved in 2003 I believe it was. There is hardly anyone there now who actually trained at Menninger's when it was in Topeka, KS.
Yes, if trained at Menninger's, a therapist learns to keep strict boundaries. No hugging, no going overtime with sessions, no divulging personal information, etc. Now I will say that some of this re personal inforamation was not always strictly adhered to. I knew my T liked opera, for example, because he was always pushing to watch it on PBS (when I was in the hospital and he was my hospital doctor and not my T). I knew other stuff too, like he gave me the name of his vet for my cats, and a few other things like that. No one kept their address or home phone number secret, and I think in all the time I saw him I only called him once at home.
My current T/analyst is the same way with boundaries, very strict in terms of the time given for appointments. Days and time when seen stay the same; if I have to miss an appointment, and he cannot fill the time, I am responsible for the time. The times are mine. So. He has said a few things about personal life like volunteering at the Jewish Center seeing patients who would not be able to afford to see someone like him otherwise. He has done a lot of work with trauma and eating disorders, and he has even worked with Holocaust survivors. Otherwise besides the program he runs for "emerging adults," I don't know anything else about him other than what I could probably find if I googled his name. I thought he was in a different location when I called for an appointment. So, I am surprised when I read about people here who say their T goes over and gives them an extra 10, 15, or 30 minutes. I am lucky if I get one extra minute. He starts to wrap up, if I need it around 10 minutes before we end so I am not left hanging and in complete distress. He knows how to do that very well which I appreciate.
You definitely have a very well trained analyst. I am glad for you, and he is right; he won't do to you what your previous analyst did. I hope he has helped you to understand too that it wasn't you. This other guy should have known better, is sounds like than to do what he did. He felt threatened by you???? HUM; I wonder if he was starting to have sexual feelings about you and then blamed you for him having these feelings.
RealMe
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.