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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2007, at 8:17:46
I didn't want to hijack anyone's thread, but I was interested in the phenomenon Real Me and Muffled were describing.
I never think of it in terms of age states, but there are definitely times I "lose my words" and struggle to express my ideas. Anywhere from total muteness to extreme difficulty in word recall to being able to get the words out but in messed up grammar. "I be" instead of "I am" or leaving out important parts of speech entirely.
Those are also the times when I tend to speak too softly for my therapist to hear easily.
I tend to get frustrated and very angry with myself, although my therapist of course reassures me.
In the past, he's referred to it as regression, but he no longer does that.
As I said, I don't really think of it as an age state. I think of it as emotional me/ rational me continuum. I describe it as a wick in water. Depending on where I am residing in my consciousness, I can be mostly dry (rational me), mostly damp (emotional me) or somewhere in between. Rational me owns the words, but emotional me can usually access them reasonably well. When I move into mostly emotional me territory (when the water line on the wick has moved up), I lose access to the words.
My therapist is pretty good at recognizing where I am, and responding accordingly.
I often wonder how visible it is to others. For example, while rational me does the typing and writing, there is usually more or less influence from emotional me. Sometimes there's none, and I go into super rational mode. Sometimes there's a coup, and it really shows, to me at lest. More often at Babble there's somewhere in the middle.
Posted by Dory on September 18, 2007, at 16:53:13
In reply to Losing my words, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2007, at 8:17:46
Posted by Dinah on September 18, 2007, at 17:03:45
In reply to you me RealMe and me? or Muffled? (nm) » Dinah, posted by Dory on September 18, 2007, at 16:53:13
Posted by Dory on September 18, 2007, at 17:48:53
In reply to ? (nm) » Dory, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2007, at 17:03:45
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 18, 2007, at 20:49:41
In reply to Losing my words, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2007, at 8:17:46
I think I missed the thread(s) you are referencing -- I've been hit or miss on the threads lately. But I wanted to let you know that this happens to me, too. Generally the more upset I am about something, the harder it is for me to talk. And I call it losing my words, too. Because that's exactly how it feels. Like I couldn't say anything if my life depended on it. And what comes out is so soft that no one can hear it.
Maybe you're right about it being related to an emotional state continuum rather than an age. There are times when I feel very young in therapy, but I'm not sure those times correspond to the mute times.
Posted by muffled on September 18, 2007, at 23:14:08
In reply to you said it was RM + Muffled in your post (nm) » Dinah, posted by Dory on September 18, 2007, at 17:48:53
Dory, I think Dinah is referring to her not wanting to hijack YOUR thread, cuz its yours, but she was interested in the child phenomenon, or regression, or whatever you want to call it. The idea was brought up on your thread, but it wasn't a fit for you.
BTW, I am happy you have discovered something that you feel could be very useful to T, and would love to hear how it unfolds for you.
Now I better quit, before I hijack Dinahs thread LOL!!!!
:-)
M
Posted by muffled on September 18, 2007, at 23:18:21
In reply to Losing my words, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2007, at 8:17:46
Dunno Dinah for sure...
Love your theory though, sounds good.
Gonna have to think on it some.
For me, the child is more separate and distinct from the me that I think I am...LOL, if that makes sense!
I am all me, but I have emotions that don't come from 'me'.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaackkk.
Too brain dead right now to figger this.
Anyhow,
catch ya later (LOL I typed ALTER first!!! then corrected it! I often reverse letters)
M
Posted by RealMe on September 18, 2007, at 23:44:59
In reply to Losing my words, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2007, at 8:17:46
Yep; know what you mean about the speak softly; my T has to ask me to repeat myself, and funny thing is he starts getting softer and softer too, and so I have to ask him to repeat himself. Crap; does this mean I should be sitting even closer. ARRRGH. Or should I lie down. Nope, can't do that yet. I might start thinking about the sex thing and have to fly out of the room as fast as I can. YIKES!!!!
Seriously, though, what you say is true for all of us to a greater or lesser extent. I sure can't get emoitional in court when I am testifying. I darn well better be very rational. But if I am with someone, like that lady I was doing testing with today and have seen in the past week, I joked with her to help her relax; I am much more empatheteic and caring and when we had to make another appointment because we didn't get done today, I said something like, "Okay you're going to have to see the crazy lady again," and she started laughing and said,
"no I really like you." Times like that I miss therapy, but of course I would not do therapy with her that way; this is an evaluation, and I need to know how she can manage so I know what she needs. Lots of abuse in her history, worse than I have ever seen in anyone. And, she is cute as a button and now pregnant by the last abusive boyfriend. Sigh. Anyway, I am getting off point. I think the emotional/rational continuum is pretty normal, and it is a problem if someone is one or the other and does not recognize when they or others are one or the other or somewhere on the continuum.When a patient says to a therpist, for example, "I hate you; you are the meanst person in the world. You are never nice; you always say mean things" or some to that effect, and the therapist just says matter of factly; "okay, I am trying to understand how this is because last week you thought I was the most wonderful person in the world because I was so understanding and caring," etc. Patients then often say, "Oh go to hell." But, they are then confronted with how they can be caring and also hateful (within themself), and then they can also look at it rationally and say to themselves at some point. "HUm, my T is right or they might say, Hum, I never saw this before; I need to think about this; maybe other people are this way too"--part of the work with BPD. And, it works but takes time. I am not implying you are BPD but just using that as an example of what has to happen with someone who is becasue they are emotional and rational and irrational. I love working with people like that. I really do. It is very fulfilling to see someone change their personality structure over time. Okay I am rambling again and need to go to bed so I can get up at 4:15 a.m. UGGGH.
RealMe
Posted by Daisym on September 19, 2007, at 1:03:32
In reply to Losing my words, posted by Dinah on September 18, 2007, at 8:17:46
I think you might be experiencing right brain/left brain dominance issues. We emote with our right brain and structure our grammer with the left area. And our speech center is, well, in the center (more or less, simply put). So when our chemicals get going - which happens when we get emotional, the brain is bathed and things get jumbled.
You asked if we could tell emotional Dinah vs. rational Dinah. I think I can after all this time...but usually only when it is extreme one way or another.
Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2007, at 9:33:54
In reply to you said it was RM + Muffled in your post (nm) » Dinah, posted by Dory on September 18, 2007, at 17:48:53
I wrote this probably as you were writing your post above. So I hadn't read your post and didn't realize it was applicable to you as well.
I thought I'd clarified that in my post on your thread, but I'm sorry for any misunderstanding.
Posted by Dinah on September 19, 2007, at 9:35:51
In reply to Re: Losing my words, posted by Daisym on September 19, 2007, at 1:03:32
I didn't want to seem like I don't appreciate your replies, but I'm going to have to get back to this topic in a little bit. Some things came up with my family of origin and at work that I need to deal with.
Ugh.
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2007, at 8:40:26
In reply to Re: Losing my words » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on September 18, 2007, at 20:49:41
Isn't it interesting that we came up with the same terminology! But it so perfectly describes what happens.
My therapist tends to wait until I can say something and that is so frustrating. I'd rather he try and guess and I'll verify or deny. That sometimes supplies some words, or helps me move out of being so emotional. We've come up with a hand signal for me to tell him when I can't talk as opposed to when I don't wish to talk. But I keep forgetting to use it.
The talking softly is so frustrating as well. He doesn't generally say anything, but moves closer to hear. I'll figure out that I'm doing it again, and I get so angry with myself. He's ok with it, he says, but I know he gets frustrated when I'm talking too softly for him to hear.
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2007, at 8:48:27
In reply to Re: Losing my words » Dinah, posted by RealMe on September 18, 2007, at 23:44:59
I think there's a real split between my rational and emotional self, but each is pretty stable on its own. So that, for example, my emotional self feels more or less the same about my therapist all the time (although of course i can get angry with him) and my rational self feels more or less the same about my therapist all the time (although of course I can sometimes find him helpful).
I don't think he sees it as inconsistency in how I view him, nor does he try to reconcile it. He annoys me by occasionally refusing to recognize, for example, that rational me suffers from OCD, but that emotional me doesn't. Or at least not in the same way. He insists on just saying I have OCD. But in general he tailors his approach to whatever part of me presents itself and doesn't vex me by pointing out the differences.
I like that about him. He doesn't make a big deal about it or anything. He just respects who I am. He deals with rational me's issues when rational me is there, and emotional me's issues when emotional me is there. And he would point out any inconsistencies in either, but not between.
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2007, at 9:10:34
In reply to Re: Losing my words, posted by Daisym on September 19, 2007, at 1:03:32
It's in the middle? That surprises me. When I'm very rational, my vocabulary increases and my words become longer and longer.
But to emotional me, language is a second language so to speak. I think in pictures and swirls and intangibles of one sort or another. Trying to interpret those is always hard. But when I lose my words, it's impossible.
Posted by muffled on September 24, 2007, at 10:06:08
In reply to Re: Losing my words » Daisym, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2007, at 9:10:34
Sorry, it all sounds so hard Dinah :-(
BUT, it sounds like you been doing some good thinking....
I struggle w/my T understanding stuff too.
But she seems game enuf to learn.
But its hard cuz *I* have to come up w/the non-CBT stuff mostly. She does some, but then I shy away.
I suppose we drive our T's bonkers at timess...oh well.
Take good care Dinah,
M
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2007, at 13:10:32
In reply to Re: Losing my words » Dinah, posted by muffled on September 24, 2007, at 10:06:08
In some ways, I think I lucked out with my therapist. He's always willing to accept me and to work with me as I am, without feeling the need to fit me into his theories.
I somehow think you've lucked out that way too. Even if you do have to struggle with her sometimes.
Maybe one day I'll decide that what he doesn't offer outweighs what he does. :) But in the meantime, I'll keep plugging away, and the funny thing is that as I try to get what I want from him, I sometimes get it from myself.
Posted by RealMe on September 24, 2007, at 20:02:43
In reply to Re: Losing my words » RealMe, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2007, at 8:48:27
Sorry; I was not implying that what I said in my post fit for you. I am sorry if you thought that. I was using it as an example of what can happen with some people. I have not heard anything from you that would have suggested you are like that. My point about me was that while I might be feeling very emotional about something, I have to suck it up when I go to court. As far as my T is concerned, I get angry with him sometimes, but this does not mean I hate him or think he is different than any other time. I just get pissed because he doesn't let me get away with going off on a tangent and avoid the issue at hand. I tell him he is too damn smart for his own good. Yep I said that. He tells me (because I often anticipate where he is going with his comments) that I need to let him do his job. I tell him sorry, but at least I am not going into major denial with him.
Anyway, sorry that you thought that is what I meant.
RealMe
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 24, 2007, at 20:30:50
In reply to Re: Losing my words » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2007, at 8:40:26
It does describe it.
We don't have a hand signal, but usually I can get out the words, "You talk." And she knows that means that she should take the lead in the conversation and ask questions, etc., which is different from our usual MO.
In some ways, it's amazing we make any progress at all, isn't it?
Posted by Dinah on September 25, 2007, at 8:47:26
In reply to Re: Losing my words » Dinah, posted by RealMe on September 24, 2007, at 20:02:43
No need to apologize!
This is a difficult subject for me, and while I might have accepted it, I still don't understand it very well. So it's helpful for me to think things out.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood, though.
Posted by Dinah on September 25, 2007, at 8:47:58
In reply to Re: Losing my words » Dinah, posted by RealMe on September 24, 2007, at 20:02:43
This is the end of the thread.
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