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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 52. Go back in thread:
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 22, 2007, at 20:59:34
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!!, posted by DAisym on July 22, 2007, at 20:41:40
Okay, Daisy said it much better and I would like to now amend my post because I completely agree with her about not dropping the writing off early. I just didn't think of it in terms of her hiding her feelings, etc.
So listen to Daisy. As far as I can tell, she knows pretty much everything. :-)
Good luck, Jammer. I'll be holding you in my thoughts.
Posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 22:36:57
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » jammerlich, posted by muffled on July 22, 2007, at 17:42:05
Posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 22:43:38
In reply to Re: Needs -- Jammer + Daisy, posted by TherapyGirl on July 22, 2007, at 20:59:34
I was uncertain about it, too, and still am. On the one hand, I think Daisy has a really good point. It could be really important to see her initial reaction and not give her time to plan things too much. On the other, I know she sometimes (not frequently, but when she does, it's a zinger) will say something that completely freaks me out and then, later, when I address it, will say that's not really what she meant and she was "thinking out loud." So, I hate the idea that she might say something off the cuff that, later, she realizes she doesn't really mean. I don't think I could last through something like that surrounding this issue. It's a tough call, isn't it?
Posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 22:46:22
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » jammerlich, posted by Maria01 on July 22, 2007, at 19:33:53
How can you be sure she wouldn't be correct if she tried to say it was all my stuff? Sometimes I wonder if I just have things all wrong.
But, you're right, I do need to be very clear with her and staying isn't the right thing to do if she's at all squeamish about it. This is something you only want a person to do for you if they can do it without reservation, I think.
Posted by DAisym on July 22, 2007, at 22:47:14
In reply to Re: Needs -- Jammer + Daisy......for DAISY and » TherapyGirl, posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 22:43:38
I think you should do what feels right for you. You will drive yourself crazy worrying about all the potential outcomes - we all have opinions but you know, better than anyone else, what feels best. Drop it off, do it in the moment, phone it in...whatever. Just remember there is no right or wrong. Just you, trying to get what you need to feel better.
I hope it goes well. I'm sure waiting is horrid.
Posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 22:53:02
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » jammerlich, posted by red house on July 22, 2007, at 20:27:34
I'm glad your post was long; it was filled with meaty and helpful stuff!! And it helped release a few pent up tears, which seems to be a much needed thing around here.
The thing I think I'll most carry with me is that you think doing this would be a "profound act of self-care." That's very different from the words that come to mind for me. I think more along the lines of demanding, needy and selfish. So, this is a new concept.
I do have another question for you, if you don't mind. I see my T twice a week. Does that change your opinion? It's not just the one 50 minute session and I felt like I should make that clear.
If you wanted to share some about your struggle in this area, I'd be glad to hear it. I've heard that misery loves company!
Posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 23:00:54
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!!, posted by DAisym on July 22, 2007, at 20:41:40
Thank you so much, Daisy. You share so much wisdom here. I am so terrified of being labeled "too dependent." Maybe I am. I don't work and I don't socialize much at all, only if I feel I have to. And I know she'd like to see me get involved with SOMETHING. One reason I resist is because she seems to feel it will be a substitute for needing her. And I think that when it comes to the issues surrounding telling, there can be no substitute for her (meaning a T who is comfortable with being needed).
Though, I'd be willing to do some volunteer work a couple of afternoons a week if it'd make her feel better. I just don't want it to seem like a t*t for tat, bargaining situation, so I don't know whether to tell her or not.
I'll be taking all these posts in my purse, so I can have all the babble support close at hand. Would you mind if I showed her yours, should it feel right in the moment?
Posted by DAisym on July 22, 2007, at 23:11:40
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » DAisym, posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 23:00:54
Of course you can show her mine, if it helps.
I really hate that you feel like you have to do things "her way" in order to keep her happy. But at the same time, encouraging you to get out and make contact with others is a good thing. It just shouldn't threaten your relationship. There are so many things we can't talk about anywhere else - that is why you are in therapy!! Building a life and having her support go hand-in-hand, I think.
I like what red house said about self care. Wise indeed.
Posted by muffled on July 23, 2007, at 0:21:00
In reply to Needs and my situation with T.....help!!, posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 17:13:43
Jammer, yours was good and so were the others.
Hell if ya gots lotsa paper I'd take the whole damn thread in and sit there and let her read it. Then she can just stick it inher pipe and smoke it!!!
As far as lady ahead of you being late....well unless she was in crisis, I don't think it was fair to make you wait w/o asking you first. I had that prob w/my T a time or two, then I wrote it in a fax, and she got the point. She is seldom very late now.>So, I bit the bullet in a BIG way (at least it seemed so to me) and told her that, for me, it's often a lot harder when I do talk about more sensitive things because then I really miss her between sessions, want to call and feel very needy....and I just hate it.
**that is SO true Jammer, and SO very brave of you to say it. You really do impress me. I think your being a great client.
>And this was basically her response, "I'm OK with you calling; what I don't want is for you to feel like you can't survive without me. You need to know you can handle things on your own. But, no, I wouldn't want you calling every day." (I never said I wanted to call every day, btw)
**well, it would hurt if my T said that, and she has said that sort of thing thats hurtful, but HONEST, and her being honest is extreemly important to me. So while this statement would hurt, I would be more glad that she was being literal w/me, so I could understand. And so despite the hurt, I would trust her more, if that makes any sense.
I guess i just don't want candy coated b*llshit from her. I want whats real and true. Guess that comes of me being confused so often...>I feel like it's not OK with her for me to need her. And I just don't think I can talk about things from when I was little with someone who isn't OK with that. I feel a "come close...oh, but not TOO close" vibe from her and I really think that's what's keeping me from talking. I need to know that if I'm having trouble between sessions, I can call her and get a warm response, otherwise I don't even want to go there. And, if it so happened that I needed to call several days in a row, I'd need that to be OK, too, I think. I don't WANT to have to do that. God knows, I hate those feelings, but I need to know that'd it'd be OK.
**hmmmm. Is this a test of the emrgency broadcast system?, and ARE you my clone????? I have a similiar prob w/my T. Cept mine hasn't really said I can't call, cept at the 'forbidden' times. But I think if I was real messed and called, and she got the message, I do beleive she would call back.
But my T DOES have the 'forbidden' times...and really, even tho she HAS said she's 'there' for me...well..I don't really feel she is, cuz she not there SO often it seems...
Maybe you guys need to work more on the 'coping mechanisms' beforeyou 'tell'. I think its supposed to be standard proceedure that the client has coping mechanisms in place before doing real hard stuff.
If you are like me at all, when you freaking, its real hard to 'hold' onto T. Thats where phone messages etc have been helpful, cuz I SO afraid of rejection, so I never very often call T. I usu just lv a phone message when I know she not gonna be at work, and then leave it up to her to call me back when or if she wants.>Ever since coming back, I've thought she's not been nearly as open; but, Thursday was the first really concrete indication of it. Before, it was just a feeling.
**Hmmm. My T gave me sh*t for twisting and messing w/what she says. She will say its OK to call, and somehow I twist it all around and ANY slight thing she might add to the statement, no matter how benign, I seem to somehow hear it as a rejection...I didn't knew I did that until T pointed it out. Maybe you do that too? I dunno.
>And we're both just going to continue getting more frustrated if I stay and she won't change.
**Jammer you are very wise woman.
>I have some big fears about saying it. Of course, I'm afraid she'll say she's already all she can and I'll need to move on. The very idea makes me weep. But, there's really nothing magic about her. I don't need her or anyone to help me survive life; but, I do need someone to help me survive the telling. It doesn't have to be her, though. As hard as it is to admit, it could probably be anyone who is open to my need surrounding it all. The other big fear is that she'll try to tell me that my need is wrong or bad....that I'm "needy" in the most awful sense of the word.....and that anything more than what she's doing would be indulging me and making me too dependent.
**Mano man, this is such a FANTASTIC post you wrote Jammer. I am serious, it is SO amazing to me. Bang on. And its really helpful to me in my journey too, so thank you for this.
Sigh. This needy feeling UTTERLY sucks. I wonder why so many of us babblers have such a problem with it?
I always feel extra needy a day or so after appt. AND on weekends cuz I know she not avail. It seems silly, but just to know I CAN phone is HUGE. And so knowing I CAN'T phone her is equally huge :-(
Yup, the lack of availability or the perceived, or the reality of it all, well, its confusinfg and hard :-(
So I dunno bout your T Jammer. You seem to be a good client, and smart to boot. I DO admire your T's honesty. So its good to know she's a straight shooter, so if you give her the straight goods, you can hopefully get and honest reply as to whether she feels that she is the T for you.
I hope you can do that.
I haven't been able to :-( I always afraid of hurting my T.
Don't wanna look for a new T.
Sigh.
I am idiot.
Anyhow Jammer, don't suppose I wrote anything very useful. Just know that I understand, that you helped me too, and that I admire this post of yours so very much.
Take special care,
Muffled
Posted by slugdoo on July 23, 2007, at 3:42:49
In reply to Re: Needs -- Jammer + Daisy......for DAISY and » TherapyGirl, posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 22:43:38
Okay this is what I think, and I am sorry it seem so to the point. I truely don't think you trust your T after everything you went through with termination and then she didn't even remember how you felt about that, and then her leaving for vacation and her not being able to give you what you need. There seems to be a theme of her letting you down and not not even being concience of how you are stuggling.
Sometimes we don't know exactly what it is we need, but we do know when it feel right to us. I just wonder if you T can ever give that to you. It kinda reminds me of a child looking for love of a parent, and sometimes no matter who hard the child tries or needs love, the parent just don't know how to give it.
I had a very hard time trusting anybody, and if my T did some of the stuff yours has, I probably wouldn't have stayed with him. It took awhile, but I know he is there (here) for me, and I trust in that. I feel him within me.
I hope I dont' make you angry about what I said about your T, I just want the best for you.
Posted by red house on July 23, 2007, at 8:26:03
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » red house, posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 22:53:02
:) i'm glad that you were able to take in the idea that being direct and clear about your needs to your T could be a profound act of self-care. that's something that i try to say to myself but it's easier said than done! and i too struggle with feeling that it's just demanding, needy, and selfish to request so much and/or expect and hope for so much. but you deserve, as we all do, the opportunity to have your needs met or at least to have someone who is trying and wanting to meet at least some of your needs and open and available to you fairly consistently. and that's because you're human and you're struggling, and that's something we all deserve, i think. of course i have a hard time believing that for me sometimes, but i'm working to validate it. (so telling you helps me!)
and, no, i don't think the fact that you go twice a week changes my opinion. not at all, actually. i go twice a week and even though it's a struggle sometimes to validate my need to be in touch with my T at other times, i don't think the fact that i see her twice a week changes the need (or should change it for that matter). i always talk with my T the day after an appointment to touch base, and so that's at least two calls a week (and more often than not, i call additional times). i am confident that she wouldn't have a problem with my calling daily if that's what i was needing. granted these aren't long phone calls, but still it's the sense of connection and continuity that makes a big difference and enables me to build security. and i feel very fortunate that her limits are such that she's available for my calls. i feel guilty and bad that she is so giving, but i think her thought is that when i feel secure in needing her i actually will turn out to need her less because i can internalize our interactions. (someone else touched on this in response to your post -- i do think it's true that permitting patients to need their Ts and have access will actually make for more secure and less needy patients, rather than the reverse.)
it is really so hard, though, because i think that so many of us who struggle with these issues and our own sense of shame over our "needs" have such a hard time asking for what we need and being direct about it. so we're also highly sensitized to any perceived rejection. at least that's true for me. and so i've learned that sometimes i pick up on communications that were not there or my take on an interaction is actually not at all what my T intended to communicate, and so i try to check it out -- reality test -- to see if we're on the same page. by communicating with your T in the way that you've expressed your struggles here on the board, you'll be doing the self-care work of being direct, honest, and open about who you are and what you're needing and give your T a chance to meet you half way, if she can. and if she's can't, then it's honoring yourself to do the difficult process of moving on if that's what you need to do.
redhouse
Posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 9:57:41
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » Maria01, posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 22:46:22
Unless there is a straightforward situation like abuse, no one person is fully responsible for how things transpire. It takes two; you are not all wrong about your therapist. Your gut is telling you that something is "off", so please listen to it. A therapist that is ambivilent, inconsistent, remote, etc. sounds like someone that is not a good match for you.
The bottom line is that you are with a T who sounds like she is either unable or unwilling to meet your needs, and you deserve to be with someone who is willing and able to meet your needs, and to be as consistent as possible when it comes to scheduling, callbacks, etc.
How she handles your upcoming session with you is reflective of her, not of you. There are two of you in the room: you and your T. Both of you have a responsibility in how things will eventually turn out. You have a responsibility to yourself to make sure you are with someone who is willing and able to meet your needs, and your T has a responsibility to you to tell you whether or not she is willing/able to do so. From what you said in your original post, sounds like she isn't willing/able. My money is on willing.
T drama sucks; went thru a ton of it with my last T, but hang in there, and you will get the answers you need as to whether or not to stay with your present T.
Good luck to you!
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 10:56:57
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!!, posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 9:57:41
Would it be horrible for me to wait until next week to do this?? I'm moving next Sunday and haven't even started packing. My parents and ex-husband are helping, so it's likely to be all kinds of uncomfortable. Plus, there's still painting that needs to be done in the new house. I'm afraid if I go ahead with this and it doesn't go well, I'll never get everything done. I may not get everything done as it is. I'm not very on the ball lately.
So, what do you think? Go ahead with it or wait?
I have more to say to everyone (thank you all so much for writing), but must run to meet someone for lunch. Back later.
Posted by Honore on July 23, 2007, at 11:17:23
In reply to Needs and my situation with T.....help!!, posted by jammerlich on July 22, 2007, at 17:13:43
Hey, jammer. Maybe you do need to call every night for a while-- what's wrong with that?
Nothing. I really mean that. I wish you could understand that there is nothing at all wrong with needing that-- and with getting it, too.
It's been done. You're not the only one. I've read case histories and articles describing Ps who needed that-- and Ts who were able to provide that without feeling invaded or exhausted. You need the right T-- granted. And it's not every T. But there's nothing wrong with the need.
You need a T who can handle whatever it is that you do need to work through whatever is and has happened. That includes the idea that you might need to call a lot of nights-- or maybe even every night. It really is okay to need to do that. It might mean that you need to see him/her more than you do-- which may not be feasible-- but again, there's nothing wrong with it.
So you know you need to consider very very seriously whether, despite how attached you are to your T, she can meet your needs. It's not your fault, or her fault. She is who she is. It may be that she doesn't have that ability that some other Ts do(maybe not that many-- but it doesn't matter, how many-- what matters is that you find someone who is able to handle this in a way that you find healing, not harmful)
You need a consistent and not-frightened availability of presence and contact to get through these difficult emotions, and times. And so you need-- really *need*-- someone who's got some different capabilities. Hard as it may be to end-- she just doesn't seem to be able to say the right thing-- or keep from saying these very very wrong things-- when you open up and are taking risks. She has some great qualities, but this particular quality that she may not have is so very important for you.
That's got to be tearing you down over time-- It did me, when I've tried to work with Ts who had some of those fragilities and brittleness about boundaries. I would be very very direct and clear with her-- If she doesn't feel that she can truly give you what you need, you do have to think about protecting yourself from the despair that the knowledge of that-- which you have all the time with her, it seems--provokes.
I know that's very very difficult-- but without that, you could be stuck in a place that isn't good. I very much agree with what Daisy said about that-- you've tested it out, and it does seem that it's about the fit between you and her-- a misfit that doesn't seem, after all this, to be leading to your being helped.
Honore
Posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 14:21:37
In reply to Another question for everyone, posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 10:56:57
In all honesty, you're the best judge of that. Only you know how much pre-moving stuff needs to be accomplished, and you also have the most awareness of your situtation with your T and how that can possibly impact the other things you need to do.
There's nothing "horrible" about waiting..only you know how much you can handle in light of your upcoming move. =)
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:21:37
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » jammerlich, posted by DAisym on July 22, 2007, at 23:11:40
Doing things her way is starting to feel like a really big deal. At the end of our last session, she sort of went off a little bit. Not raising her voice or even seeming angry; but, she WAS frustrated and the pitch of her voice got high and she gestured with her hands a whole lot. It was very unsettling.
She said she was confused, that she didn't know what to do to help me, and that she could make(or has made??, I can't remember) suggestions but I "won't do them anyway." (And this was after saying earlier, in the same session, that she really thinks I'm doing the best I can each day. How's that for mixed messages?) She sounded completely exasperated. I felt a sense I panic, like I MUST do more; but, after I got home and thought about it, it also made me really angry. I have my first ever pdoc appt. on Thursday and I'm going largely because she wants me to. All I've agreed to take is something to help me sleep; but, I could get that from my general practitioner. I'm going to the pdoc for her and I've agreed to find out what else he would suggest for me and take the list and look into those medications to see how I feel about them. That part is for her, too, and I think her statement made this step seem completely unimportant. It's also left me thinking, "why bother?" Are small steps REALLY alright with her? Will anything ever be enough?
Daisy, what do you think about the use of medication to get through the telling? And I mean if you can be stable if you weren't talking about it. She seems to think that meds are the way to go to make it easier. I guess I think about how everyone says it'll come when it's ready to come and think if you need medication to be "ready" then maybe something else is wrong with the situation. But maybe that's because I really DO feel that something else is wrong with mine. To me, it seems like she wants me on meds to make things easier on HER (so I won't call or whatever)and not so much for me, really. Maybe if I really believed she'd be there for me, I'd be more open to them. Not that I don't have other issues with them, because I do. There are lots of obstacles in that department.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:35:59
In reply to Waaaagh!! What a bunch of GREAT posts!!!! » jammerlich, posted by muffled on July 23, 2007, at 0:21:00
Muffly, you make a lot of valid points. And I really hope I'm not twisting what she says. I guess I DO believe it's OK for me to call sometimes; I'm just at a loss for when those times are. And I'm scared of calling at a "wrong" time, so then I freak and obssess, don't call at all, and just suffer in silence.
Most of the time I call these days is when there's something I know I NEED to say, but probably WON'T say if I wait until my next session. Those calls seemed OK b/c I really just needed to get the thing SAID so we could talk about it later; I wasn't really looking for anything from her. I have called a couple of times just because I was having a hard time with something (related to her or someone else) and both times, I found her to be very brief and lacking warmth. Like she was responding in such a way as to discourage future calls.
And like you, I wouldn't want her to sugarcoat anything. I think it'd be setting us both up for misery if she said something was OK when she didn't really feel that way. And while shooting straight helps me know I can trust her to be honest, I don't think it means I should stay with her. Maybe what she feels comfortable offering isn't the thing that's going to help me move forward.
I think it's great that your T has voicemail. Mine doesn't and, IMO, that's a real problem. She has a secretary taking messages during the day and an answering service to take messages or page her after hours; they just take your name and number. Given the nature of my recent calls, if she had voicemail, I wouldn't even need to speak to her....I could just blurt there. And that might leave me feeling more free to actually make calls when I have the more needy feelings, which I don't generally do b/c I feel like I've taken her time in the other ways and might step into one of those "not OK" situations.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:40:16
In reply to Re: Needs -- Jammer + Daisy......for DAISY and, posted by slugdoo on July 23, 2007, at 3:42:49
I'm not angry at all at what you had to say. A lot of it was right on target and exactly what I've been thinking myself. Repairing that termination rupture is a really, really tough thing.
In fairness, though, I do want to say that she did a really great job during the sessions immediately before and after her vacation. I'd kind of already shut down and gone into survival mode, but she really did and said all the right things. The only thing I hate is that I wasn't able to more responsive and openly appreciative of them, because now she might think she wasn't hitting the right buttons when, in actuality, she probably got them all.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:49:07
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » jammerlich, posted by red house on July 23, 2007, at 8:26:03
There is so much shame wrapped up in it, isn't there? I really do wonder why that is. Or maybe I don't. Until pretty recently, I've felt like my only purpose for being on the planet was to be a tool for meeting other people's needs. I never really gave much thought to the fact that I could have needs. It was mainly about survival, and I think even that was an accident. So, I've acknowledged that I have needs; but, other people's needs were a huge invasion and nearly destroyed me. Will mine be the same to those I look to for meeting them?
Security is another word you used that feels important to me. I don't feel at all secure in my relationship with her, so I think I constantly have one foot out the door. I've got to be prepared to escape quickly should the need arise.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:51:20
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!!, posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 9:57:41
Sadly, my money is on "unwilling," too. Though, my hope is that it's just some huge miscommunication that we can work out. I'm just not sure it's a good idea to have any hope right now. I might just be setting myself up for more disappointment.
Sigh.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:55:35
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » jammerlich, posted by Honore on July 23, 2007, at 11:17:23
Thanks for writing, Honore. And for saying that it's OK to need and to call often. It's such a hard thing to believe. I probably wouldn't even consider it possible without you and all these other wonderful babblers.
Thanks for noticing that she has great qualities, too. She really does and I'm sure she's the perfect T for lots of people. I do know, however, that she may not be the perfect T for me and that it's time to find out and move on, if need be. It really sucks, but I do know it.
Posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 15:32:18
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » Maria01, posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:51:20
Oh, man. Yeah, you might have to guard against disppointment..ideally, one shouldn't have to do that with a therapist. In this case, though, it might be warranted until you can find out for sure what is going on.
From what you've posted, I think she just doesn't have the capacity. It's no reflection on you, just a reflection of who she is and how she works. ...doesn't lessen your pain, though.
Posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 15:43:32
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!!, posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 15:32:18
Actually, I think she DOES have the capacity. What I'd like from her is exactly what she gave when I saw her the first time around. I'm more inclined to believe she just isn't willing to do that type of therapy with ME anymore, not that she isn't willing or able to do it at all. And that is probably the worst part of it for me.
Posted by slugdoo on July 23, 2007, at 16:32:53
In reply to Re: Needs -- Jammer + Daisy......for DAISY and » slugdoo, posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 14:40:16
Whew! I am glad you are not mad. Is there a way you can tell her that what she did during this time really helped you so she will know more about what you need from her?
Posted by Maria01 on July 23, 2007, at 16:49:13
In reply to Re: Needs and my situation with T.....help!! » Maria01, posted by jammerlich on July 23, 2007, at 15:43:32
That is especially gut-wrenching, knowing she does have that capacity and is just not willing. Went thru a lot of that with my ex-T; the capacity was there, as evidenced by how she behaved early on, but the willingness went south in the last month I was working with her.
I'm hoping now that I'm with someone who is both willing and able, and I hope that you are able to find the same, be it with your currrent T, or with someone else. It is the least we can do for ourselves.
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