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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Happyflower on April 21, 2007, at 23:38:07
Okay, I forgot I asked about this a while ago, and I never expanded why I was asking. I am not asking due to anything to do with me personally but I thought since some of you do split, maybe you might be able to help me.
Okay I am learning about cognitive brain psych and we learned that a part of the brain called the amygdala gives a emotional tone to the sensory imput of memories even at a very early age.
Okay so far? Well what I was wondering is that someone suffering from PTSD, sometimes is trigger by such things as a massage, they react and are triggered into PTSD without knowing why.Now normally they say we don't have memories before age 2, but what I am wondering if it is because we are unable to comprehend or communticate what is going on at that early age.
They are saying now that the amygdala might remember things before the age of 2, as physical memories called emotional tones that can't be cognitively comprehended because that part of the brain isn't fully developed yet.
So lets say that you might have been abused at a very young age, you were unable to communicate it or comprehend totally what was happening, but the amygdala remembers the physical memory. So lets say you have a massage or someone touches you in a certain way, it might trigger those memories and you don't know what the memories are or why you feel the way you do.
Now PTSD flashbacks are simular, because your body remembers the physical stuff that happened to you at an older age, and you experience a flashback, but you have some cognitive sense of it because you are older.
Now when it come to spliting, I was told sometime you split and don't know why and it leaves you confused for a long time and upset. What I was wondering if it really could be part of PTSD flashback on something that happened before you were cognitively able to comprehend what the trauma was. Because physically you remember due to your amygdala working at a very young age, but yet you don't know what was happening because you were too young to know.
My Prof. wasn't sure how to answer this, it was a new question for him and he is a neuropsychologist and aren't aware of any exact studies of this. Especially since split personalities are not being taught in a lot of psych classes now. He was one of the 1st prof to even talk about the topic.
This is what I am wondering if spliting might be a form of PTSD due to something that happened at a very young age. An age were we were unable to comprehend what was taken place. Any thoughts or ideas?
Posted by Daisym on April 22, 2007, at 0:47:03
In reply to question about PTSD vrs. spliting *maybe trigger, posted by Happyflower on April 21, 2007, at 23:38:07
here is a little of what I know, if this helps at all:
PTSD is a collection of symptoms from a traumatic event. The event could have happened once or many times. A split is a dissociative event because the stress or pain in the moment is too much. The mind closes off in order to protect the psyche from a complete break. But the event is stored in a variety of places - body, brain, and gut. People who experience PTSD may or may not have hidden trauma. Most people are aware of the traumatic event they experienced and want to reprocess it over and over again. Splitting happens when you can't process it again. So splitting is a symptom of PTSD.
I think you are asking if a person can have PTSD from trauma caused when children are preverbal. And can this trauma cause splitting in an adult, without becoming conscious? The answer is yes. A stimulous that reactivates the trauma response can cause the cascade of cortisol that triggers the flight, fight or freeze response. The freeze usually looks like a dissociative event - splitting. It can be very upsetting to adults to know they are leaving and yet not know why. They feel the fear (the amygdala doing its job) but don't have a neo-cortex explanation to go with it.
Young children make meaning out of everything in their world or they try to. So even if they don't have the cognitive ability or symbols to explain what has happened, they still try to make meaning of it and they store it as memory. The memory is attached to whatever meaning they made of it. Which also means, btw, that children may not view something as traumatic as we do and vice versa.There are studies that show that a person can have trauma from something that happened to them inutero.
Look up Bruce Perry's work. He has a model of the brain that shows how we operate from our mid-brain when we have an emotional response to things instead of our higher brain.
You ask a great question, I hope I understood it right. It is the premise of all the early childhood work I am doing.
Posted by Happyflower on April 22, 2007, at 7:37:32
In reply to Re: question about PTSD vrs. spliting *maybe trigger » Happyflower, posted by Daisym on April 22, 2007, at 0:47:03
Hi Daisy,
Thanks for the wonderful response, It seems like I am on the right track anyways.
The only thing I might want to add about PTSD, which I do know more about because I experienced it myself, and the many talks to my T about it, he is specialized in this area.
I guess the reason we keep having the flashback is because that during a tramatic event our brain freezes and stops processing the event all the way through to resolution. This is why we have the flashbacks over and over again.
With EMDR, it sort of unlocks the memory and cognitively with the help of a T , we finish the processing that was stuck due to the tramatic event. Which allows the memory to be less powerful because it is fully processed into resolution instead of being stuck in the "frozen terror state".
I find this stuff facinating and I will be sure to look up Bruce Perry's work. Thanks Daisy for taking the time to respond and read through my long post. ;-)
Posted by Happyflower on April 22, 2007, at 7:40:47
In reply to Re: question about PTSD vrs. spliting *maybe trigger, posted by Happyflower on April 22, 2007, at 7:37:32
Posted by gazo on April 22, 2007, at 7:58:40
In reply to question about PTSD vrs. spliting *maybe trigger, posted by Happyflower on April 21, 2007, at 23:38:07
i will look HF as it seems to me i saw something in my travels recently about the amygdala and body sensation memory. i think that might at least connect you to info regarding what you are asking. My understanding though was that the amygdala stored more primal sorts of memory rather than pre-verbal memory. It's the ancient portion of the evolution of the brain and therefore motivates the flight/fight response ( and yes, i know *you* know this but someone else here may not ;o) )
try finding articles which talk about the amygdala is accepted research and then trace through the citations. Google scholar is great for this. And, you'd be surprised how many researchers in those citations are willing to answer questions or point you to more research.
one other thing.. in one behaviour class i took (and i took everything i could take without declaring a major) we studied split brain patients. Of course they are different form the split personality or dissociative identity patients, but there might be some clues there for you. The splitting of the hemispheres occurs only at the cortex level, so the amygdala would remain in tact. Studies of their fear reactions etc would give you some additional info.
Posted by Happyflower on April 22, 2007, at 9:36:43
In reply to Re: question about PTSD vrs. spliting *maybe trig » Happyflower, posted by gazo on April 22, 2007, at 7:58:40
Hi Gazo!
I would love to hear more about your "travels", it sounds very interesting to me. Heck when I am out of school, I will be bugging you so much with emails, your head will be spinnin" ! Just kidding, but you are lucky I am so busy! lol heehee
I did this unofficial research when I was a freshman in highschool on a different kind of "split brain" thing. I gave 3 6th grade classes tests that show if they are right brain dominated, left or "whole brain". I also used their standardized test scores , their current grades and IQ tests.
My results were very surprising that it was so obvious on what kind of learners each of them fell into. The whole brain students (students who use both sides ) were the A students and in the high IQ range. The left brain dominated students were still good students, more average. But the right brain dominated students were the ones in "special education" classes their IQ's were mixed.
So after my results I talked to their teachers about my finding and talked about a different kind of learning style that would help them to learn. I guess it really helped the teachers who had these students because they understood how best to teach them. Some students from what I have heard years later, when I was graduating highschool, the teacher told me they caught up and are a part of the regular classes. So it helped this teacher how to teach more than in style and it helped the teachers who work with mostly right brained students. I went to reginals with my science fair project, got a 1st place, but couldn't afford to go to state finals. A teacher offered to pay my way but my parents wouldnt' let me go.
But anyways that was my first taste of brain studies at an early age. I know my research wasn't done in a way that would be acceptable at college level, but it did give me a taste. Especially now, with the privacy laws, I wouldn't have been able to see their grades or their IQ test scores. A lot has changed in 25 years.
Posted by Happyflower on April 22, 2007, at 15:59:26
In reply to Re: question about PTSD vrs. spliting *maybe trig » gazo, posted by Happyflower on April 22, 2007, at 9:36:43
a link to more info about EMDR
www.emdr.com
Posted by gazo on April 22, 2007, at 16:28:45
In reply to Re: question about PTSD vrs. spliting *maybe trig » gazo, posted by Happyflower on April 22, 2007, at 9:36:43
you should have a look for "drawing on the right side of the brain" by Betty edwards. It's a creative oriented book but it has roots in some very interesting ideas. The right side of the brain is the more creative side, but also nonverbal. The communication centers are in the left side... dang i forget the name.. it's a German name begins with W.. but anyway, it raises all sorts of learning and communication issues. Ever been doing something manual and gotten into almost a trance? That is because you become right brain focussed and it doesn't go through that W center of speech.
Our education systems, and a lot of how our society works, is based on left brain interaction. It's not that the right brain people are slower, they just don't fit the tests.
i don't know which is really better.. left brain people probably thikn the world makes a lot more sense than others do, right brain people have rich creative souls, and the people who are more whole brain can either have the best of both or the worst of both. i have always felt dichotomous trying to integrate thinking and feeling... a type A personality but an artist's heart.
Posted by Happyflower on April 22, 2007, at 17:00:32
In reply to Re: question about PTSD vrs. spliting *maybe trig » Happyflower, posted by gazo on April 22, 2007, at 16:28:45
I was tested as a "wholebrain" , but I think both sides fight with each other on who is better, being intellectual or being creative. LOL
So I am damnd if I do and damned if I don't !Gazo, you are making me smile today! :-)
Posted by gazo on April 22, 2007, at 18:38:53
In reply to Re: question about PTSD vrs. spliting *maybe trig » gazo, posted by Happyflower on April 22, 2007, at 17:00:32
awesome. :o) Love to make people smile..no, really i do.
i have even mentioned to my T that i feel torn between both sides.. and sadly the left brain has the bullhorn. :/
if you want to try an experiement for yourself... and i am NOT recruiting or trying to push anything weird... but you should give Buddhist meditation a try.. particularly Shambhala. It's non-religious meditation practice.
the reason i mention it is because it focusses on distancing oneself from that little voice. You try to allow it to speak without engaging it. Allow thoughts to arise and then drift away without interacting.
it is a very intense and difficult process and it is amazing what can happen. i have found a lot of psychology principles overlap.. and i am finding that some schema therapists use eastern philosophy techniques as well.
i once did a meditation weekend... 8hrs a day! and things drift up, like anger, sexual thoughts.. everything. The little voice does a little tantrum.
But the mind is a funny thing.. so much more than just that little voice that we all think is all we are.
(please don't redirect this post... it's not about religion!)
Posted by Happyflower on April 22, 2007, at 18:54:52
In reply to Re: question about PTSD vrs. spliting *maybe trig, posted by gazo on April 22, 2007, at 18:38:53
Hey,
I am very familiar with mediation, our yoga instructor used it in class a lot, not as intense I am sure as what you do though. I miss yoga, I hope I can get back to it soon. But yeah, I have had
powerful emotions "rise up" during meditation.
It was something else. ;-)
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on April 22, 2007, at 19:09:16
In reply to Re: question about PTSD vrs. spliting *maybe trig, posted by gazo on April 22, 2007, at 18:38:53
Hi Gazo, happyflower, Daisy,
what an interesting thread for someone whose bologna's first name is post-traumatic stress...but seriously. There is evidence that there are episodic memories that are formed in infancy. For instance some studies have babies in a crib with a brand new toy and if you hit it just a certain way it does something cool. bring them in a week, or even a month later, they remember how to operate the toy.
Everyone always assumes that the brain gets bigger and more complex as we mature during childhood. ironically, the way that the brain matures is that it "prunes" away excess synapses, leaving only the relevant ones. synapses increase and peak and then are withdrawn or pruned. not that the neuron dies, just that it becomes more specific. This is in the neocortex. I dunno about the amydgala. it's a messy place down in the amygdala. so many little nuclei, so many inputs and outputs. it's quite an amazing structure... but I digress
memories can be formed early in childhood. even cortical memories, but they need reinforcement at fairly constant intervals in order to be maintained. This is why a child may grow up speaking fluent 2-year-old french and then move to the outback and never speak french fluently again. reinforcement.
Now take my own particular case history. I have medical evidence that I suffered a severe fall down the stairs at 12 mos of age let's not get into the reasons for that... and I have real memories of being a little kid sitting at the top of those stairs absolutely terrified of falling down them. (these memories were unfortunately reinforced, in my case).
Now as an adult, the first time that memory ever got processed in therapy was pretty horrific. I really felt like the couch I was sitting on was the top step and I was about to fall.
I think that the more "primitive" non-neo brain structures have their own way of encoding and reinforcing events. they code the emotional valence and say "this one's scary" "this one's pleasurable" "this one is boring... NEXT!"
What happens to a traumatized brain is that the anxiety-regulation system gets pretty out of whack, especially from an early age.
Things that cause fear to the amygdala are often undifferentiated. that is: scared of falling down the stairs = scared of being pushed down the stairs = scared of stairs = scared of person doing the pushing = scared of [so many things]
When the amygdala decides that something is scary, it's not smart enough to decide what *exactly* there is to be scared of.
enough about fear... the good thing is that pleasure via nucleus accumbens operates in much the same way. smelling chocolate makes you feel happy. just try it. really. being around people who have done nice things for you in the past gives you a feeling of well-being. seeing baking soda reminds a cocaine addict of that kind of "pleasure". etc. the context is not that specific, only the feeling matters.
I could go on
blah blah blah...-Ll
Posted by Happyflower on April 22, 2007, at 19:31:52
In reply to little baby memories *CA trigger**** » gazo, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on April 22, 2007, at 19:09:16
Hey you! ya you! the one in their blissful resting place. I am sorry I made you think of stuff you don't probably want to think about.
Wana know what scares the hell of me? That I actually understand and have learned a lot of what you have posted. OMG! I swear I can never look at life the same after all those psych classes. Education is an interesting thing.
Well anyways, so glad to here from you about this. If you ever have extra time on your hands check out the new studies on the amygagla and feeling toned memories. I can't tell you which ones, but I know you can find them. LOL Heehee!I hope you are enjoying your exotic tea drink peach something . I hope your kitty doesn't start to drink out of your glass like mine does. Here is a site my kids found that is really good. I havent' seen all the video's but the ones I have, are so funny!
http://www.funnycatvideos.net/funny-cat-videos/latest/talking-cats.html
Well I need to stop procrastating and get my paper writen on my personal experience with PTSD and EMDR. Self disclosure, oh, yeah! He will be sorry he asked after my story, good thing he is a neuropsycologist and can handle this stuff.
;-)
Posted by gazo on April 22, 2007, at 19:38:23
In reply to little baby memories *CA trigger**** » gazo, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on April 22, 2007, at 19:09:16
that is exactly what i was getting at with the idea of it being "primal".. that is registers fear but not exactly "fear of" very precisely. From what i understand there aren't too many successful ways to completely undo such memories or their impact. Things incorporated into the amygdala are well.. there. i have read about therapies using various techniques to lessen effect and teach coping skills but the connection to amygdala experiences are more hard wired are they not Llurpsie?
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on April 22, 2007, at 20:21:17
In reply to Re: little baby memories *CA trigger****, posted by gazo on April 22, 2007, at 19:38:23
> that is exactly what i was getting at with the idea of it being "primal".. that is registers fear but not exactly "fear of" very precisely. From what i understand there aren't too many successful ways to completely undo such memories or their impact. Things incorporated into the amygdala are well.. there. i have read about therapies using various techniques to lessen effect and teach coping skills but the connection to amygdala experiences are more hard wired are they not Llurpsie?
well, consider that the neocortex provides a lot of input to the amygdala, so we can work on reinterpreting our fears. desensitization works well in many instances. I think that a lot can be done with the power of conscious thinking. The power of therapy is to bring our unconscious to our conscious awareness. then we can start to change our patterns of reacting to stuff.
-Ll
Posted by Daisym on April 22, 2007, at 20:29:50
In reply to Re: little baby memories *CA trigger****, posted by gazo on April 22, 2007, at 19:38:23
I think one of the most fascinating things about the brain is how "smart" it is -- it adapts to the situation. For young children, if the fight or flight response were to kick in, the brain's response to raise the heart rate and prepare the muscles for action would serve to make them more vulnerable to bleeding to death if injured. But the freeze response --dissociation ---instead mobilizes the shunting of blood away from limbs and releases a flood of endogenous opioids - killing pain, producing calm and giving a person a sense of psychological distance from what is happening. But even though there is a freeze, the brain is in brute survival mode. Breathing slows down, fear floats away, the body goes numb and time is distorted and slow.
From what I've learned about working with young children, the key to reducing the symptoms of PTSD is reenactment. The brain tries to make the trauma into something predictable and "boring" - pattern and repetition lead to tolerance. Of course the more intense and overwhelming the experience, the harder it becomes to desensitize all the trauma-related memories. Children do this through play - they process every day stress as well as trauma. Giving them control is so important, which is why they like to boss me so much!! For adults, talking and talking and talking about the trauma eventually helps it recede and lose much of its power. We learn to tolerate the stimulus and we also learn to acknowledge the triggers and allow for our response. I have to remind myself often that getting rid of all reaction isn't the goal - because it isn't realistic that I'll ever say, "wow, I'm so glad these things happened to me," but the goal is that while they will hurt when I think about them, they will no longer intrude, uninvited into my life. And when an intrusion occurs, I will recover my sense of safety and self faster and with understanding.
The kicker to everything I've learned is that no matter how well we understand the parts of the brain and neural connections, when the whole brain is bathed in a "soup" of chemicals (like our friend cortisol) individual injury, memory and response can not be predicted well. Fascinating, isn't it?
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 23, 2007, at 17:02:58
In reply to Re: little baby memories *CA trigger****, posted by Daisym on April 22, 2007, at 20:29:50
So I have a question for all of you:
My pattern of being attracted to people is that mostly I'm not. Except for two instances where I've been WILDLY attracted to people who treat me like crap. The attraction is so out of proportion to everything in my personality and everything else going on at the time, that I have suspected that somehow these two people are reminiscent of someone who may have abused me sexually as a toddler or infant. I say may because I don't have conscious memories of this, although my T has suspected for years that it's true.
So what do you think? Is it possible? God knows, there is plenty of physical abuse from the length of my childhood that I do remember. But this out-of-proportion attraction does not seem connected to that -- and I've done so much work around those things that I can't imagine I could still be subconsciously triggered at this level.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 24, 2007, at 19:51:32
In reply to Re: little baby memories *CA trigger****, posted by TherapyGirl on April 23, 2007, at 17:02:58
Posted by Daisym on April 25, 2007, at 12:47:20
In reply to Re: little baby memories *CA trigger****, posted by TherapyGirl on April 23, 2007, at 17:02:58
My first hit when I read this wasn't that it is about someone who abused you but rather someone you attached to early on who left you before you were ready. And people can leave each other in all kinds of ways, not just physically. A depressed mother can "abandon" her baby without ever leaving the baby. What you are describing sounds like an extreme adult attachment crisis -- this NEED for this other person, even when the other person isn't good for you.
Now of course I don't have the whole story. If you were with these people and they began to treat you badly and THEN you got hooked, yeah, perhaps it is the abuse and the need to work out a different ending, to change them (to change your parents) -- to prove you are loveable.
But for sure they touched something in you that is deep and old. When you think about these two times, are there similarities? They way looked, talked, smelled, felt -- or similiarities in your life circumstances -were you feeling particularly good or bad about yourself at these times? You don't have to answer, just stuff to think about as you struggle with "why did I DO that?!"
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 25, 2007, at 16:07:24
In reply to Re: little baby memories *CA trigger**** » TherapyGirl, posted by Daisym on April 25, 2007, at 12:47:20
Thanks, Daisy. It always helps to get your (and other Babblers') perspectives. You make some valid points and I'll have to think more about what the similarities are. One quick answer -- the "hook" is immediate, which makes me think it's not about them. Somehow I think this works the same way that it works that I can generally spot depression, alcoholism or abusiveness from a mile away. You know what I mean?
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 26, 2007, at 19:07:52
In reply to Re: little baby memories *CA trigger**** » Daisym, posted by TherapyGirl on April 25, 2007, at 16:07:24
I printed out your and Llurpsie's posts -- cut and pasted them and renamed the two of you "Poster 1" and "Poster 2" and took them to therapy with me. My T read them and she thinks you are both brilliant. She said it made her want to come to Babbleland (obviously, she didn't call it that) and hang out because it seems like such a fascinating place. I said, "You know you must never, ever, ever go there, right?" She said she understood.
Anyway, she totally agreed with you, Daisy, that it was an attachment issue. We talked a lot about how to prevent this from happening again. She said I'm probably going to always be attracted to this kind of person -- the hope is that eventually I'll be attracted to one who's healthy enough that we can both work through it.
I don't love that answer -- I'd prefer to not go through the drama. And it bothers me that current attraction could ask me to have sex in a bathroom and I'm guessing I'd say yes. T doesn't think I would. Or if I did, that the negative would outweigh the positive in a matter of weeks and I'd put a stop to it. I wish I had her confidence in me. She did point out that last time it took me 11 years to figure it out and this time I did it in weeks. This is one of those times where she's tickled that i did something healthy and I'm ticked off that it happened to me again.
At any rate, we had a good session about it and you two helped me broach the topic. So thanks!
Posted by Daisym on April 27, 2007, at 1:51:57
In reply to Re:baby memories *CA trigger**** Daisy + Llurpsie, posted by TherapyGirl on April 26, 2007, at 19:07:52
I knew I felt my ears burning today! :)
I know that feeling - your therapist is tickled pink about what you just did or said, and *you* are thinking "darn! I should have avoided it altogether."
Again - recognizing our patterns, making shifts and changes before major harm (11 years?!) or investment of time - is what therapy is supposed to lead to. Cause we'll probably always slip into those holes once in awhile.
Sounds like you are doing very good but hard work. Glad I could help a little.
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on April 27, 2007, at 14:17:26
In reply to Re:baby memories *CA trigger**** Daisy + Llurpsie, posted by TherapyGirl on April 26, 2007, at 19:07:52
Wow, it's really gratifying to hear that I helped you with something.
Sometimes it's so hard to see what T sees in me, so I understand your hesitation to believe in your own better judgement.
maybe she's right though?
just wondering...
-Ll
This is the end of the thread.
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