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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 57. Go back in thread:
Posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 10:00:23
In reply to Re: Selfish, posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 9:43:49
>>>but I do believe that some people get to such a point that living is intollerable and they shouldn't have to continue living with that pain for the sake of other people.<<<
and on the flip side...
some people get to such a point with grief, anger, and unanswered questions from *surviving the suicide of a loved one* that life is intolerable they shouldn't have to continue living with that pain.......but they do, somehow.
some make it, some don't. it can be a life of agony surviving a loved one's suicide...talking of the pain the deceased was in prior to their chosen death doen't trump out the pain the survivors are left to live the rest of their lives in.
we all hurt. some manage. some don't.
we all end up hurt from some aspect of it. and we're not trying to discuss better, worse, richer poorer etc....just that ppl left after suicide have a hard road to travel and often revisiting the "it is okayish because they freed themself from so much pain" refrain can salt their wounds.
folks on this board are adults for most part and can take care of themselves...suicide is obviously a triggery subject for many.....consider this our contribution on the matter.
Posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 10:25:05
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » cubic_me, posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 10:00:23
> >>>but I do believe that some people get to such a point that living is intollerable and they shouldn't have to continue living with that pain for the sake of other people.<<<
>
> and on the flip side...
>
> some people get to such a point with grief, anger, and unanswered questions from *surviving the suicide of a loved one* that life is intolerable they shouldn't have to continue living with that pain.......but they do, somehow.
>
> some make it, some don't. it can be a life of agony surviving a loved one's suicide...talking of the pain the deceased was in prior to their chosen death doen't trump out the pain the survivors are left to live the rest of their lives in.I definately realise this. It certainly didn't make my pain any better, and I live with the pain of her death every day. But if she was in intollerable physical pain I'd feel the same way - whether they were choosing to actively end their life or to stop treatment that would lead to inevitable death.
>
> we all hurt. some manage. some don't.
>
> we all end up hurt from some aspect of it. and we're not trying to discuss better, worse, richer poorer etc....just that ppl left after suicide have a hard road to travel and often revisiting the "it is okayish because they freed themself from so much pain" refrain can salt their wounds.Yes, it's a very hard road to travel. I'm not denying anyone the pain that they feel, and I'm not saying that people shouldn't feel angry etc. I was just stating how *I* feel about it, not how anyone else should feel.
> folks on this board are adults for most part and can take care of themselves...suicide is obviously a triggery subject for many.....consider this our contribution on the matter.
>I certainly wasn't intending to get in to heated discussion about it. I was just trying to express how I've rationalised it in my own mind (taking several years) to enable me to continue life with some level of functioning. I realise that everyone has their own way of coping with this, and as you say, it's a very triggery subject and close to many people's hearts.
Posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 10:29:23
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » cubic_me, posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 10:00:23
zenhussy,
Thank you - I also have to say, that if "suicide is OK because the person is no longer in pain" - than why has no poster offered another poster support so that they can feel better about killing themselves?
Instead of saying to a suicidal poster what gets said now, which is - "hold on, seek help, don't hurt yourself" -
can we realistically say to a suicidal poster, by extension of this logic, is "it's OK to kill yourself, do it, you're in too much pain."
I have never heard that yet on babble.
& I hope to never hear that ever.
I understand a persons view of suicide as a necessary and unfortunate action someone feels they need to take.
But I do not understand saying that it's OK.
Huge difference.
Posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 10:36:27
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » zenhussy, posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 10:25:05
I appreciate your contribution, as one who has seen both sides of the fence, -
the stopping treatment metaphor for an illness means biology will take its natural course and death will ensue - there is nothing one needs to do.
Suicide is an event though, the person must take action to end their life. It doesn't happen passively.
That is a big difference.
& yes, this subject is close to my heart and yours as well - I took no offense. Please be well and take care.
Posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 10:36:57
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » cubic_me, posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 10:36:27
Posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 10:37:24
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » zenhussy, posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 10:25:05
>>>I was just trying to express how I've rationalised it in my own mind (taking several years) to enable me to continue life with some level of functioning. <<<
thank you for the follow up....sorry if our post was off mark. morning w/o coffee and the brain ain't started yet. no excuse.
appreciate the clarification.
am deeply sorry for your loss....am sorry for everyones losses here on this board.
Posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 11:05:39
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » cubic_me, posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 10:36:27
>
> the stopping treatment metaphor for an illness means biology will take its natural course and death will ensue - there is nothing one needs to do.
>
> Suicide is an event though, the person must take action to end their life. It doesn't happen passively.
>
> That is a big difference.Yes, I can see the difference. Although in my post I mentioned that to me someone actively taking their own life due to pysical or psychological pain are similar to me, as well as them choosing to stop treatment for an illness.
> & yes, this subject is close to my heart and yours as well - I took no offense. Please be well and take care.I didn't take any offense at all, it think it's good to have discussion.
In response to your other post, I think the reason why I'd say to 'get help, hold on' etc is that for me to think suicide is ok for a person to choose, they'd have to make the decision to do it inspite of all the help and support offered. I know that isn't the same as everyone who posts supportive messages though.
I have to go for today, but it's nice to see everyone's opinions on such a sensitive topic.
Posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 11:07:39
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » cubic_me, posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 10:37:24
> >>>I was just trying to express how I've rationalised it in my own mind (taking several years) to enable me to continue life with some level of functioning. <<<
>
> thank you for the follow up....sorry if our post was off mark. morning w/o coffee and the brain ain't started yet. no excuse.
>
> appreciate the clarification.
>No, not off the mark, just another viewpoint I think. I'm always open to other ideas on a subject.
Posted by Declan on February 8, 2007, at 17:50:55
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » cubic_me, posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 10:00:23
That's it, isn't it.
If we wish to improve the survival rate, maybe the best we can do is to look after each other and ourselves.
Posted by tofuemmy on February 8, 2007, at 19:52:33
In reply to Survivors of suicide, posted by one woman cine on February 6, 2007, at 11:57:32
Posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 21:34:42
In reply to we all hurt. some manage. some don't. » zenhussy, posted by Declan on February 8, 2007, at 17:50:55
>>>That's it, isn't it.
If we wish to improve the survival rate, maybe the best we can do is to look after each other and ourselves.<<so what can be done? in therapy we've learned many skills that we employ so as to not seek that final exit with the gusto that depression gives it....for us anyway. meds play a huge role for us as well so can't go forward w/o a mention of their role. therapy can be enough for some and that's great if so........others need meds in order to get to a place where they're even open enough for therapy and to learn different ways of coping with grief, pain, anguish, etc.
the steady hand of a trusted therapist can do much good when the client is willing to do the work and sponge up all the helpful things no matter how minute.
it is strange to go from such deep depression where contracts with pdoc and therapist were necessary to progress as living was the goal and if we wern't willing to even give it a go then why should they work with me? ya know? at the time it was insulting and degrading and all that but now in hindsight it makes sense and was wise of them both to do.
how do you look after yourself? and others?
we mail some, call others, and a few bits here and there to keep sane and alive....that's some of what we do. and we look back on writings to help gauge where we're at with regards to certain topics as our views have shifted radically over the years with a healthier mind (for now) and much work in therapy.
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 8, 2007, at 21:48:01
In reply to Re: we all hurt. some manage. some don't. » Declan, posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 21:34:42
I guess part of it is learning to forgive ourselves for hurting ourselves. Learning to forgive others for their role in our hurt.
And learning to live with hurt is one strategy that will work until the forgiveness stuff settles in (or we move on)
And caring for one another is really important. I just got an email from a dear friend who was terrified that he had an infection in a skull bone. That was scary. I kept in touch and found out that it was just a really bad ear infection and hadn't spread to the bone yet. Maybe it helped that I cared and asked him to see the Doctor. He was already going to go, but maybe it helped that I cared enough about him to follow up on his appointment.
I guess Therapy is not a one-size-fits-all cure. It performs different functions for me from day to day. I guess I don't *need* it right now, but I sure do need as many people on my side as possible.
Some folks have a hard time getting a therapist on their side, or perceiving it as such, so I'd hate to force someone to go to T if it's just another horrible thing in their life. But when suicide is an attractive option, I guess it's like going to the dentist. It hurts, but it's good for you in the end...
-Ll
Posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 22:39:07
In reply to Re: we all hurt. some manage. some don't. » zenhussy, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 8, 2007, at 21:48:01
>>> I guess part of it is learning to forgive ourselves for hurting ourselves. Learning to forgive others for their role in our hurt.
And learning to live with hurt is one strategy that will work until the forgiveness stuff settles in (or we move on)<<<
slurpee noodle what wisdom on forgiveness do you have to share?
and is forgiveness a requirement to heal from the ultimate wound of losing a loved one to their own hand?
the therapy remarks were more to keep this thread to psychology than seeing it moved elsewhere.....it certainly isn't a one-size-fits-all cure. and sure therapists can create far more harm in some situations. but that doesn't negate the potential to save lives through therapy when a patient is suicidal.
the dental analogy works..."I guess it's like going to the dentist. It hurts, but it's good for you in the end..."
here's to helping fellow humans, but first helping ourselves as we're useless when we're depleted from compassion fatigue.....which is not that uncommon for csa survivors...or survivors of any childhood abuse for that matter.
Posted by fayeroe on February 9, 2007, at 8:54:53
In reply to Survivors of suicide, posted by one woman cine on February 6, 2007, at 11:57:32
> I'm just curious, how many people have survived the suicide of a loved one?
>
> I have.
>
> I deal with trauma of that every single day.i've survived two deaths. pat
Posted by fayeroe on February 9, 2007, at 8:57:24
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide » one woman cine, posted by fayeroe on February 9, 2007, at 8:54:53
> > I'm just curious, how many people have survived the suicide of a loved one?
> >
> > I have.
> >
> > I deal with trauma of that every single day.
>
> i've survived two deaths. patcorrection..........three
>
>
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 9, 2007, at 9:05:04
In reply to Re: we all hurt. some manage. some don't. » Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 22:39:07
> >>> I guess part of it is learning to forgive ourselves for hurting ourselves. Learning to forgive others for their role in our hurt.
>
> And learning to live with hurt is one strategy that will work until the forgiveness stuff settles in (or we move on)<<<
>
> slurpee noodle what wisdom on forgiveness do you have to share?understanding
saying to oneself "it's okay NOT to understand"
Trying to think of the good things a person did, even when thinking of the bad things.
>
> and is forgiveness a requirement to heal from the ultimate wound of losing a loved one to their own hand?I don't know.
I think that ultimately it comes down to knowing as much as possible about the loved one. That way they still seem human, even after committing such an inhumane act against themselves. I know that it affects people personally, but the typical suicide is not an act AGAINST someone, but rather an act AGAINST suffering.Of course sometimes relationships are a cause of suffering. That's where it gets hairy- suicide as an escape from a relationship rather than an act of violence against the other party/s in a relationship.
I don't know how it's possible to move on. The best I think we all can do is to try and live our lives a little better, with memory of the person, and not just of the act itself.
>
> the therapy remarks were more to keep this thread to psychology than seeing it moved elsewhere.....it certainly isn't a one-size-fits-all cure. and sure therapists can create far more harm in some situations. but that doesn't negate the potential to save lives through therapy when a patient is suicidal.
>
Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I totally agree with you. My own particular escape came from combination of life changes, medication, therapy, and support from peers and friends (and some dumb luck too, I think). Therapy has the potential to save lives. Even if it hurts to talk about the pain.> the dental analogy works..."I guess it's like going to the dentist. It hurts, but it's good for you in the end..."
>
> here's to helping fellow humans, but first helping ourselves as we're useless when we're depleted from compassion fatigue.....which is not that uncommon for csa survivors...or survivors of any childhood abuse for that matter.I understand. Helping is good, but we can help best when we're in a position of strength. Sometimes we have to get a little stronger in order to do better things in our lives. Ultimately, though I think it is a miracle of humans as a social animal that we derive good feelings from helping others.
Compassion fatigue- well, I think there's an interesting concept there. Part of it comes from helping others who take FROM you, rather than give back to you. Another part of it comes from helping folks whose particular circumstances trigger some kind of reaction in ME, in which I feel re-traumatized or powerless. That's very dangerous, indeed.
For instance, I consider my behavior on psycho-babble as walking on a high beam. Sometimes I feel very secure in my footing, and I can post really supportive and maybe helpful things (I HOPE!) and other times I worry that what I'm writing is complete drivel and that it is generic at best and harmful at worst. Other times I am out of my own mind and I am demanding support, as sweetly as possible. Sometimes it's draining though, to support a poster who may be making me feel worse about myself. Then I take a little break, because psycho-babble affords us the luxury of taking breaks. Real life doesn't always afford us those luxuries.
are you having any particular problems forgiving? Is this something you struggle with? I forgive very easily, and perhaps too easily, without the deeper grace that comes from understanding and THEN forgiving. Oh well. I have a hard time getting angry at people, or expressing it constructively. I definitely could use some help with THAT!
-Ll
Posted by Declan on February 9, 2007, at 14:26:42
In reply to Re: we all hurt. some manage. some don't. » zenhussy, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 9, 2007, at 9:05:04
I wonder if people who kill themselves sometimes come to a point where they see it not as a form of attack, but rather as a form of protection?
Sometimes they do, I think, which suggests something about the extremity of the mental state involved.
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 9, 2007, at 19:24:36
In reply to Re: we all hurt. some manage. some don't., posted by Declan on February 9, 2007, at 14:26:42
> I wonder if people who kill themselves sometimes come to a point where they see it not as a form of attack, but rather as a form of protection?
>
> Sometimes they do, I think, which suggests something about the extremity of the mental state involved.I think so too, Declan.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 21, 2007, at 2:29:03
In reply to toojane - please do not post to me. » toojane, posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:16:48
> please do not post to me
Sorry about not having been around. I just want to remind everyone that there's a new step in this procedure:
> 3. Contact me and the deputy administrators to let us know why that post makes you feel harassed and, since this should be a last resort, what steps you've already taken to address the situation.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#harassed
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by one woman cine on February 21, 2007, at 7:34:40
In reply to Re: pdp requests » one woman cine, posted by Dr. Bob on February 21, 2007, at 2:29:03
Thanks - I know - & I did contact you & 3 deputies - 2 weeks ago about this, I heard nothing - my DNP stands.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 21, 2007, at 8:45:30
In reply to Re: pdp requests - » Dr. Bob, posted by one woman cine on February 21, 2007, at 7:34:40
Regarding the procedures for establishing a PDP, you need to specifically state in an email that you have requested a PDP and why. This is separate from any notifications that might be sent.
namaste
gg
Posted by one woman cine on February 21, 2007, at 10:51:35
In reply to Re: pdp requests - » one woman cine, posted by gardenergirl on February 21, 2007, at 8:45:30
You know - I thought the 3 e-mails I sent were pretty detailed - I'm still disappointed I heard nothing. zero - not even an acknowledgement *anyone* even received it.
Sorry I didn't expressly put "DNP" in the header.
My e-mails still stand as the proof enough for the DNP.
Posted by one woman cine on February 24, 2007, at 12:05:37
In reply to Re: pdp requests - bob and gg, posted by one woman cine on February 21, 2007, at 10:51:35
to have my e-mails/babblemails responded to. It's been 3 weeks since I've sent notification about this & still zero - just a friendly reminder.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2007, at 12:11:45
In reply to Re: pdp requests - » Dr. Bob, posted by one woman cine on February 21, 2007, at 7:34:40
> I know - & I did contact you ... - 2 weeks ago about this, I heard nothing
Sorry, I got really behind. Before that, you'd posted:
> how can we discuss this without either one of us feeling bad?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20070203/msgs/729919.html
Would you still be open to discussion? If so, maybe you and she could resume here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20070215/msgs/735997.html
with I-statements. If not, I'd understand and uphold a PDP. Just let us know here which you'd prefer. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by one woman cine on February 27, 2007, at 7:22:11
In reply to Re: pdp request » one woman cine, posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2007, at 12:11:45
I would prefer the DNP, thanks.
This is the end of the thread.
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