![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 30 to 54 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 20, 2006, at 21:18:15
In reply to Re: Blame, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 20:23:27
I don't blame. Okay-- I blame Grandad, but he's long gone. Just because I don't blame my father though, doesn't mean that I cannot be angry with him for taking away some innocence of mine. I can still be angry without blame.
I guess the problem with blame is that it sets up some kind of cause-effect relationship that is very difficult to prove or even infer. It also sets up a dichotomy of the "guilty" and the "innocent" that is clearly delineated by a law. Sometimes there is not enough proof to demonstrate that a law was broken. Sometimes the laws we have aren't sufficient to explain the hurt we feel.
Anger & Hurt: these are more productive emotions than shame or guilt or blame. We do not have to sacrifice the good parts of our selves in order to feel angry or hurt. But in order to feel shame or to blame someone- we must necessarily admit that their action has changed us for the worse. I'm not sure that that admission is necessart or desirable.
Posted by Daisym on September 21, 2006, at 1:41:25
In reply to Re: Blame, posted by Lindenblüte on September 20, 2006, at 21:18:15
Anger & Hurt: these are more productive emotions than shame or guilt or blame. We do not have to sacrifice the good parts of our selves in order to feel angry or hurt. But in order to feel shame or to blame someone- we must necessarily admit that their action has changed us for the worse. I'm not sure that that admission is necessart or desirable.
****But then, to follow your line of thinking, aren't we sacrificing the truth? His action did change me for the worse. And yes, I'm mad as he!! about that. But I'm also deeply ashamed of these secrets - for my part in them and for him too. I'm holding all the emotions for both of us. (Talk about introjection!)So if no one is to blame, how do I organize my thoughts around it? My father sexually abused me - a whole range of abuse -- and he was violent at times and scary -- since I was 5 until I was 12. Then he left me and I didn't see or hear from him for years. If he isn't to "blame" what do I say -- he had his reasons? Or he couldn't help it? How do I describe his behavior?
Posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:07:35
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » Lindenblüte, posted by Daisym on September 21, 2006, at 1:41:25
blame, shame, disgrace, ignomony, anger, rage, confusion, despair.......
Mere words.
That cannot ever convey true meaning. Not really.
Cuz how can you ever possibly convey such meaning REALLY.
You can't.
Its not possible.
There is such a huge network of interconnecting feelings and sensations, and lack thereof, and thots and realitys and unrealitys and truths and untruths, sanity, and insanity, and I could go on and on and on and on.
But there ARE NO WORDS.
Words can never say.
There is no sense or logic.
There is no reasoning.
Mebbe thats where at some point we have to trust somebody.
Trust.
How can there be trust.
How could such a miracle occur.
But if we trust someone to tell us the basic truths as best they can.
Keep it simple if not understandable.
If we can just know.
That we are who we are.
Moulded by lifes events.
That we as children did the best we knew how in our fear and aloness, and confusion.
That we didn't try and hurt out of viciousness.
That we knew so little of what should and shouldn't be.
That we were/are JUST kids.
I walk in the school.
I look at the children.
They know so little.
They try so hard.
What do they want?
They want to be valued, accepted.
They wanto feel safe and at peace.
I look at the child with shadows...
Do I feel revulsion?
NO.
Compassion.
For she is but a child.
I don't know what I trying to say.
Trying for words.
Where there are none.
Sorry.
((((((((((((((((Daisy))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Linden))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Kids))))))))))))))))
Posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:12:45
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:07:35
((((((((((((((((Daisy))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Linden))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Kids))))))))))))))))Sometimes...
nevermind.
Sometimes there just are no words.
I sit beside you.
Silent.
Loving.
Cuz you got value.
You just do.
Muffled.
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 21, 2006, at 8:09:16
In reply to Sorry,ignore above except...., posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:12:45
Muffled. I did not ignore the above. It was from your heart, and it was meaningful to me (and you too?). It's okay if it seems disorganized. That's the nature of the feelings/memories. Thanks for your words. Even when there are none. At least there's not a vacuum.
And for your hugs.
that was so beautiful. you made me cry a little.
I'm sitting next to you too. okay? (((Mufflie))) and (((Daisy))) and ((((Alex)))) and... ((((PBabblers))))... and all the others that know, or maybe don't know yet. Or know and have forgotten. Or they know but don't think it's wrong (yet?).
We can just sit on a park bench together, and pretend to be strangers, or not? We'll just be our witnesses.
hugs to kids. past and present.
and to worth, 'cause we just ARE.
We made it this far.
-L
Posted by antigua on September 21, 2006, at 8:49:54
In reply to Blame » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
I understand that sense of worthlessness. For me, it underlied everything. Let me see if I can explain. I constructed an elaborate set of beliefs about myself based on the abuse--that I was pretty, special, etc.--that helped me survive. Facing the abuse now, and attempting to face what kind of father he was, I felt that everything I believed about myself started to crumble. Because I wasn't special or pretty if he rejected me when he left me. There was nothing to hold me up; I felt the bottom had dropped out. If I wasn't those things that I identified with my father, what was I? Everything I believed about myself was wrong, and I was totally worthless. For me the word was also "hopeless". There was no hope left.
But what I've discovered (and it happened through hypnosis, although it was always there, I just didn't know) was that I don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. I WAS pretty; furthermore, I was strong, competent etc., all those strengths that I had to develop to cope with the abuse.I guess what I am trying to say is when I hit bottom and felt so hopeless and helpless, I felt there was no core self to me. But I've discovered that there is. By identifying with the weak child I had thought I had nothing without him and his love. But I do. I see that now. I was definitely wrong about somethings (and I felt that if I was wrong about him being the loving father than I MUST be wrong about everything--again, I had no self).
But I see now that some of my core beliefs were defintely wrong, and I understand that I developed them to cope, but the basic essence of me is there, and it's pretty darned good is what I've decided. Many of the skills/strengths I developed to cope were good. It doesn't have to be a black and white question anymore for me. I see that now. Before, I only saw that if I was wrong about him, I was wrong about everything, which meant that I was hopeless.
I know I'm babbling, but wanted to talk.
best,
antigua
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 21, 2006, at 8:56:57
In reply to Re: Blame » daisym, posted by antigua on September 21, 2006, at 8:49:54
I'm scared.
I know what my coping mechanisms are/were. They feel like my entire personality.
I told my T- I'm so happy I don't have to be an actress anymore. BUT. If I'm not going to be an actress, who am I?
T said that the way I interact with him is almost always on an intellectual level. That's because that's what's SAFE for me. (Emotions and such: that stuff isn't safe.)
If I'm going to go deeper than just intellectual exploration of my psychology-- Well? What if I find out there's nothing "inside" me?
(troubled)
-Li
Posted by sunnydays on September 21, 2006, at 9:22:20
In reply to Re: Blame » antigua, posted by Lindenblüte on September 21, 2006, at 8:56:57
That worried me sooo much when I started therapy. My T just about fell out of his chair one day when I said, "You know, the problem is I don't really know who I AM anymore. I'm good at school, and things like that, but I don't know who I AM." Before that I would dance away from any emotions (and I still do a lot of the time), but when I admitted that I just felt empty, that's when I started realizing that wasn't so true after all. There are plenty of things inside you, Linden, you just haven't been paying attention to them. Once you do, you'll probably be really surprised like I was. Good luck. It is soooo hard to start feeling emotions when you haven't allowed them before.
sunnydays
Posted by Jost on September 21, 2006, at 11:26:25
In reply to Blame » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
Blaming someone is a stage-- an important stage, I think, even if it has its limits, its own type of damage.
I spent a lot of time caught up in destructive and intense relationships with both my parents. They were the only people who were real to me. And they and I were fundamentally such different people, with such different emotional needs, awarenesses, and temperaments-- we were always deeply in conflict.
I wanted a kind of warmth and recognition of --and support for-- my aspirations and my ways of looking at, understanding, working through things-- that they couldn't give me.
and they needed a daughter who was more like they were. I don't know who that was, but not me.
So yes, I spent years being angry and hurt and blaming myself, and blaming them-- and wishing and hoping that the next time would be different-- if I did something different, if I explained something better, if I were better. It never was.
I don't think you can help blaming yourself and blaming people who hurt you so much-- whether they "meant" to-- or, even if they meant to, if they really couldn't help it. They did it, and they didn't listen, they didn't try to change.
But then, eventually, I found that blaming them didn't matter any more. I don't know why. Partly I saw that they couldn't help it. Partly, I saw that there were better things somewhere else-- which was against their philosophy, too-- and that I could find people who did understand, and did care in a way that felt much better, that mattered.
So I think it's finding something better that allows you to let go-- let go of all these tangled emotions that muffled talked about-- it's not that you forgive (although you can do that, too)-- it's that you slowly let go, and it moves away from you, into the past, where it's more veiled, distant, less and less important, less and less what's real.
What's real is the better things, feelings, ways of being that you discover.
At least that's what I've found.
Jost
Posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2006, at 18:07:22
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » Lindenblüte, posted by Daisym on September 21, 2006, at 1:41:25
> So if no one is to blame, how do I organize my thoughts around it? My father sexually abused me - a whole range of abuse -- and he was violent at times and scary -- since I was 5 until I was 12. Then he left me and I didn't see or hear from him for years.
> If he isn't to "blame" what do I say -- he had his reasons? Or he couldn't help it? How do I describe his behavior?
You just did describe his behaviour. Descriptions... Don't have judgements in them. They can be neutral and objective.
You can plug in how you felt in response to the various things he did too. Therapy can help you see that your feelings are a pretty normal / natural response to those kinds of behaviours.
Is there an answer to the question 'why did he do those things'? I'm not sure that there is really. I know that often in my own case I 'make up' (confabulate) stories around my intentions. Sometimes I have no idea. Sometimes I think the 'why's' are a call for you to justify yourself and come up with a rationale. If you were to explain the way things 'really' are (which is about impossible in hindsight anyway) well... Have you read "The Stranger"?
You have nice memories too - don't you?
How do people see natural disaster?
Of course it is understandable to feel mad.
Lifting blame is a choice. It is a volountary action. I learned about it in DBT.
I guess I'm seeing it like this:
Thesis: Its my fault, I'm to blame.
Antithesis: Its his fault, he's to blame.And back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and how to get off?
Transcendence: Blame is besides the point. Lift the blame.
That doesn't mean you aren't allowed to / can't feel angry. When you feel angry don't blame yourself for feeling angry. It is a consequence of what happened. It is an understandable consequence of what happened.
But you can feel angry without blame...
Like if a volcano erupts causing mass destruction...
You can be understandably sad and mad and hurt and vulnerable and scared...
And it doesn't have to be anybodies fault.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2006, at 18:08:50
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2006, at 18:07:22
Posted by Daisym on September 22, 2006, at 0:59:07
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2006, at 18:07:22
The basic fault in the "no blame" line of reasoning is that abuse is equal to a natural disaster. Almost as if, it was inevitable or unstoppable...God's will. By removing blame, it feels (just from where I sit)like "he couldn't help it" -- or something like that. I'm struggling to find the words to explain what I mean -- this isn't something that just "happened." He DID this -- and my reactions, normal or not, don't change that he DID this. He wasn't mentally incapacitated, he wasn't forced by anyone or anything...and it wasn't an accident. So perhaps...perhaps...another world, like accountable? But doesn't convey the negativity I want to convey about his choices.
There is no way to nuetralize these acts. They were horrible and terrifying. They should be remembered as such so that our collective outrage prevents this kind of abuse from continuing.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 2:13:48
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » alexandra_k, posted by Daisym on September 22, 2006, at 0:59:07
You can't change what happened in the past.
Choosing not to blame a volcano doesn't mean that you think it was okay that lots of people died or that you think it is a good thing that lots of people died.
Similarly,
Choosing to lift blame doesn't mean that you condone his behaviour or that you think his behaviour was a good thing.
Choosing not to blame a volcano doesn't mean that you wouldn't intervene to prevent future eruptions if it was within your power to do so.
Similarly,
Choosing not to blame doesn't mean that you wouldn't intervene to prevent those kinds of behaviours being done to others if it was in your power to do so.> There is no way to nuetralize these acts. They were horrible and terrifying. They should be remembered as such so that our collective outrage prevents this kind of abuse from continuing.
Hacking says that whether we consider certain behaviours to be 'abuse' or not is a function of political agenda. To categorise certain acts as acts of 'abuse' has become societies way of expressing collective outrage.
Is collective outrage required in order for intervention to be likely?
Are people collectively outraged about volcanoes exploding?
Is that why people try and figure out volcanoes and the like so as to interveane?
I don't think so...But that being said the likely effects of the kind of behaviour your Father showed towards you... Are very likely indeed to have you feeling hurt and confused and scared and outraged and terrified and all kinds of very intense horrible feelings like that. It is understandable that you would feel those things. Sometimes... I think we do need to feel those feelings... But I don't think blame helps those feelings I think blame is more likely to intensify them. The feelings are horrible enough without being intensified...
Does your outrage help you or harm you?
The notion of lifting the blame is that it can be the way out of this cycle:
Thesis: Its my fault, I'm to blame.
Antithesis: Its his fault, he's to blame.With the thesis you feel horrible about yourself. With the antithesis you feel horrible about your Father. But you love your father too... Hence you find yourself swinging back to the thesis... And round and round it goes...
I just offered it for your contemplation as a possible way out of the cycle...
Posted by sunnydays on September 22, 2006, at 7:36:35
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » Daisym, posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 2:13:48
But people aren't collectively outraged about volcanos exploding because there would be nothing we could do to stop them if we wanted to. I think that it is very true that blame is necessary. Now, it may only be necessary as a stage, and later we learn to lift it, but the two choices for me right now are to blame my brother or to internalize the negative feelings so that I feel bad about myself. I need to go through a period of blaming my brother in order to get the negative feelings out and feel what it is like to not hate myself. I don't think there is another way to get those negative feelings out of myself, at least my therapist doesn't seem to think so. But I don't know if later I will stop blaming or not.
sunnydays
Posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 8:13:58
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » alexandra_k, posted by sunnydays on September 22, 2006, at 7:36:35
> But people aren't collectively outraged about volcanos exploding because there would be nothing we could do to stop them if we wanted to.
Ya. Volcanoes are a hard one. But I figure there are people studying volcanoes trying to learn how to better predict their behaviour so they can give advanced warnings to prevent people being hurt by them and stuff. I'm just saying that I'm not sure that collective outrage is necessary for people to work to interveane. And so I'm wondering... What collective outrage is really doing...
(Trying to raise public consciousness Hacking says.)
> the two choices for me right now are to blame my brother or to internalize the negative feelings so that I feel bad about myself.
Why are they your only choices? Why can't you just say that your brother did x and a result of that is that you feel... Whatever negative feelings you feel. I don't understand why failure to blame your brother necessitates you blaming yourself? I don't understand what work blame is supposed to do...
> I need to go through a period of blaming my brother in order to get the negative feelings out and feel what it is like to not hate myself.
Why can't you work on accepting your negative feelings as understandable responses to what happened? I don't see why or how blaming your brother helps...
> I don't think there is another way to get those negative feelings out of myself
Why can't you work on accepting them as feelings that you are having. We don't choose our feelings... They just are.
> at least my therapist doesn't seem to think so.
Hmm...
> But I don't know if later I will stop blaming or not.
It is your choice.
Posted by daisym on September 22, 2006, at 13:11:03
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » sunnydays, posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 8:13:58
Maybe the difference comes down to the fact that a Volcano can not form a concept of right nor wrong - and has no conscious choice about erupting or not. HUMANS do. They make choices and this choice involved domination of someone else.
As far as social consciousness, I guess we could argue whether there are universal rights or wrongs. I know that sex with young girls is the accepted norm in some cultures. But since it isn't the norm in my culture, it carries with it shame and a whole bunch of other negative crap, both external and internal. And I'd like to think that we could universally agree that one person hurting another person for personal gratification not linked to survival, would be classified as "wrong."
btw - this debate is making me think a lot. I hope I'm not coming off as hostile or angry.
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 22, 2006, at 14:21:12
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 22, 2006, at 13:11:03
> btw - this debate is making me think a lot. I hope I'm not coming off as hostile or angry.
personally, I haven't read the last 6-7 posts except to skim for references to me personally. I'm not ready to read them. too raw.
I very much doubt that any participant in this thread is anywhere close to being uncivil or hostile or angry (at the other posters) but you could always get a civility buddy, if you're worried.
(((Daisym)))
-Li
Posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 18:04:53
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 22, 2006, at 13:11:03
> Maybe the difference comes down to the fact that a Volcano can not form a concept of right nor wrong - and has no conscious choice about erupting or not. HUMANS do. They make choices and this choice involved domination of someone else.
I guess it comes back to my world view of determinism... If I had your fathers body and his genes... I'd have been along for his ride thinking his thoughts and feeling his feeling and doing the things he did. I don't choose my thoughts or feelings they just occur to me. I know for a fact I've done many things I regret (for the effect they had on others) I've forgotten many other things I've done 'cause I can't face up to the effects they had on others.
Part of you loves him...
And part of you hurts so much in response to some of the things he did.
And it isn't that there was anything wrong with you because those kind of behaviours would result in most people responding the way you are.I wonder what happened to him when he was a kid.
Was he sexually abused? Physically? You know that people who abuse others were typically abused themselves, don't you?I guess that if you believe in God and you believe that people have immaterial souls that reside in their body some how and you believe in libertarian free will (where a free choice has to be miraculously one that is caused by me and one that is uncaused hence free both at the same time...) then that complicates matters.
> As far as social consciousness, I guess we could argue whether there are universal rights or wrongs. I know that sex with young girls is the accepted norm in some cultures. But since it isn't the norm in my culture, it carries with it shame and a whole bunch of other negative crap, both external and internal. And I'd like to think that we could universally agree that one person hurting another person for personal gratification not linked to survival, would be classified as "wrong."What he did hurt you.
Very much. Very much indeed.
What more needs to be said?
I don't understand...
Posted by Jost on September 22, 2006, at 18:24:58
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2006, at 18:07:22
>>>That doesn't mean you aren't allowed to / can't feel angry. When you feel angry don't blame yourself for feeling angry. It is a consequence of what happened. It is an understandable consequence of what happened.
>>>But you can feel angry without blame...
Like if a volcano erupts causing mass destruction...
You can be understandably sad and mad and hurt and vulnerable and scared...
And it doesn't have to be anybodies fault.
Is this possible, though, I wonder--really? Anger can exist without blame, but only at lesser degrees. Intense anger seems to imply guilt-- and seems to have, almost as a concomitant, some degree of blame. I doubt that the Divine Comedy would be an important text if blame and retribution were not deeply part of human experience. In fact, Dante seems to consider it wrong morally to forgive those (ie not put them into the Inferno) who commit certain mortal sins.Foregiveness, though, seems less a part of a cycle of blame, than a possible step toward acceptance and distancing.
Some sort of acceptance has to occur for blame to diminish -- and wouldn't that be a point one gets to after a fair amount of work, including but not limited to foregiveness-- ?
Jost
Posted by Jost on September 22, 2006, at 18:32:42
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 18:04:53
I've tried to think about this issue re: the holocaust, or Ruanda, or Darfur.
Esp. in view of the Milgram experiments.
About the only thing I've come up to is that moral culpability exists and is important.
For one thing, it allows us say that those who do certain things are guilty-- ie are moral actors.
It's possible that the only difference between me and someone who did various horrible things is historical luck-- they had the bad luck to be in a terrible situation, and to be forced to make terrible choices. I have the historical luck not to be.
But ultimately, while I'm grateful for my historical luck, and hope it lasts, I can't reach the point where I don't blame those who make really horrible choices and do horrible things. Wherever in the world, whenever in the world--in intimate settings and as part of grand social events.
Does my blaming them do any good? who knows? It's hard to believe that not blaming them, and considering them simply as not responsible for their acts would do more, or be a more enlightened position.
Jost
Posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 19:14:54
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » alexandra_k, posted by Jost on September 22, 2006, at 18:32:42
> while I'm grateful for my historical luck, and hope it lasts, I can't reach the point where I don't blame those who make really horrible choices and do horrible things.
You can hold someone morally responsible without blaming them. You can say person P did behaviour Q and a consequence of behaviour Q is that people are harmed. Thus society makes it that a consequence of behaviour Q is that the person who does it goes to jail. Why should they go to jail if they didn't 'freely' do the act (in the libertarian sense of 'free')? So as to prevent their doing the act again. So as to prevent other people doing the act (other people see the consequence is jail and they are thus less likely to do the act). The notions of moral responsibility and blame can be teased apart. 'Blame' has a couple of meanings... It is used in different ways... That makes it hard... I mean... The person who does behaviour P... They are responsible in the sense that THEY did it. They are to blame in the sense that THEY did it.
(But without the notion of blame justice becomes about prevention of offending and rehabilitation rather than about retribution and retaliation)
But what I was talking about was the swinging between
I was to blame
He was to blame
But I love him so I can't blame him
So I was to blame
But I feel so bad about myself I can't tolerate it
So he was to blame
But I love him...If you want to know how to get out of that cycle... The answer is to lift the blame. That doesn't mean you condone what they did or that you think they did the RIGHT thing. It is just to accept that sometimes people do things that hurt other people. That doesn't make them bad people. But sometimes people do things that hurt other people. I think people are more like volcanoes (more unthinking / unconscious in their actions) than is commonly supposed. That doesn't mean that we can't hold them morally accountable. But blame seems to... Result in worse feelings. I'm not sure what good comes of blame...
> Is this possible, though, I wonder--really? Anger can exist without blame
Yes. We can be very angry indeed that the volcano destroyed our home and took some of our loved ones. While understanding that the volcano isn't to blame. We can be angry, and hurt, and sad, and upset. We can feel vulnerable and powerless. Sure, those feelings are an understandable response to a loss of security and the like.
>, but only at lesser degrees.
Yes. That seems kind of right too. Blame... Seems to intensify feelings. Why intensify them? The feelings are hard enough without being intensified...
Hence lifting the blame isn't about making things better for them it is about making things better for us. It isn't about denying what happened or denying the horrible feelings around what happened. It isn't about blaming us because if they aren't to blame someone must be and who is left.
Lifting the blame isn't something that is done once and for all. You start to remember / to think about what happened... You start to describe what happened. As those processes go on you have a choice about whether to describe what happened objectively and non judgementally or whether to describe what happened in a way that attributes intent and assigns blame to one or more of the people involved.
When blame lifts...
It is replaced by acceptance.
Acceptance of what happened acceptance of the consequences of what happened acceptance of all those horrible feelings that resulted from what happened.What need is there for forgiveness once blame has lifted?
I've never managed to figure out forgiveness...
Sometimes I manage to lift the blame. I cry... And the tears are healing. Sometimes I don't manage to lift the blame. I... Wind myself up, I think. Feel a whole heap worse and rail 'why? why? why?' Lifting the blame is a process... It is about consciously choosing to lift it whenever you see you are doing it.
How is forgiveness supposed to be different? I don't understand what forgiveness is supposed to be.
And I don't see why lifting the blame is supposed to be some dimly imagined end point rather than an ongoing thing we try and do and sometimes we manage and hurt and heal and othertimes we just... Hurt. I don't see why lifting the blame isn't the way to heal.
Just how I've been thinking about it, I guess.
Posted by antigua on September 22, 2006, at 19:59:54
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 19:14:54
Sure I blame my father, but that doesn't mean I don't necessarily NOT understand why he did it. I would say he is responsible for what happened and leave it at that, no matter what his own personal circumstances happened to be. He was wrong to do what he did to a young, innocent child. Forgiveness is not part of the equation for me--that's not my job, to forgive him; that will not make me whole. I will make myself whole. It's not a magical thing that if I forgive him I will be completely well. It just doesn't work that way, for me.
But I will never let him off the hook for what he did, for what he is responsible for doing. That doesn't mean I harbor hate that prevents me from getting well.
Some of this discussion really sounds like ambivalence--the trick is to hold both the good (if there is any) and the evil together in the one person. I personally cannot balance them; I tend to falter on wanting my father to be the "good" father and have a hard time even admitting to myself (my defense) that he could have been so evil.
Interesting discussion.
antigua
Posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 20:39:42
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by antigua on September 22, 2006, at 19:59:54
> Some of this discussion really sounds like ambivalence--the trick is to hold both the good (if there is any) and the evil together in the one person.Yes. The discussion is around *how* to do that.
> I personally cannot balance them; I tend to falter on wanting my father to be the "good" father and have a hard time even admitting to myself (my defense) that he could have been so evil.
Maybe it comes of viewing it as a matter of *good* and *evil*. How to combine good and evil?
Maybe lifting the judgement of good an evil can allow you to integrate...
Sometimes people exhibit behaviour that makes us feel good and sometimes people exhibit behaviour that makes us feel bad. There is no contradiction in that. Whereas blending good with bad... Has an air of contradiction about it...
Posted by Daisym on September 22, 2006, at 22:14:39
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » daisym, posted by Lindenblüte on September 22, 2006, at 14:21:12
(giggle giggle) A civility buddy -- if you knew me you'd know why I'm laughing. I've been around babble for almost 3 years - been pbc'd twice and both times I knew what I was doing. My "off-line" group tends to keep me in line.
I have no idea why I'm so tickled by the idea that *I* might need a civility buddy...it's growth!! :)
With sincerity -- thank you for the suggestion. It shows you care.
Hugs!
Daisy
Posted by littleone on September 23, 2006, at 17:58:15
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by Jost on September 22, 2006, at 18:24:58
This discussion reminds me a lot of one I had with my T. He was saying that anger needs two components to exist. I forget what they were exactly, but they were something like:
1. You need to believe that someone/something has wronged you.
2. You need to believe that it was bad/unjust that this wrong occured.If someone cuts me off at the lights and I think that what they did was wrong, it won't get me mad. But if I start thinking that what they did was wrong and it should never have happened and it was wrong that it happened to me, that's when the mad comes along.
My T believes that to let go of anger, you need to lose that 2nd dot point. You need to really truly accept that bad things happen in the world. And they will continue to happen. And that the world is actually a much better place *because* it has bad things.
He went on to provide examples of how it would be bad if no wrongs occurred (eg we'd all be identical which would be boring, you'd lose meaning in life because you don't have the opportunity to make the world a better place, etc).
Having said all that, I should point out that that is simply how you lose anger. It doesn't really address the fact that a wrong was committed against you.
He believes that everyone has rights. And you have a right to have your rights met. So if say someone abuses you, you have the right to take steps to protect your rights. eg you have the right to feel safe (which may be met by refusing to see your abuser anymore, etc). However, if you practice working on the anger dot points, it is possible to get your rights met without anger.
I think it is vital to understand exactly where to apportion blame/responsibility. For example, if I was physically beaten by myfather as a child, then I need to understand exactly what facits can be laid on his shoulders as well as how I may have contributed to this as well. eg if I had a pattern of provoking him, then I need to understand that, not so I can blame myself, but rather so that I can see if I am continuing this pattern today in current relationships.
But I think you can only get a truly honest and true assessment of this by understanding the full extent of what *he* did wrong. I think that without that, the urge to blame ourselves is too strong and we won't get a true assessment.
Having said all that, I also think that feeling anger and blame are vital to healing. That they are part of the working through process. I think that jumping straight to the last step would not fully resolve the issue. That you would still have it simmering away underneath.
I'm also not addressing this next comment to anyone in particular, just putting it out there for consideration. But I think that intellectually setting aside the issue of blame is a defence mechanism designed to keep a distance and hold back feelings.
I think that a big part of healing is to face the fear of truly seeing exactly how "bad" your parents were. That is a very scary thing to face - and accept.
This is the end of the thread.
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