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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on July 14, 2006, at 1:26:09
Last night, in our marriage counseling session, something came out that I guess I hadn't ever realized before. It's individual issue, but it came up in MC because my husband was there to say the Magic Words, I guess.
The MC asked me how I'd done in the class that I just finished. I said I hadn't done as well as I'd wanted to, which is true, but my husband said, 'Ask her what she got.' I told the MC what my final score was, and got told that I should be proud, that considering the circumstances, it was great that I'd managed to complete the class, etc. And my husband said, "I could never do that well -- I think I was a pretty good student, but I could never have gotten that score." And I said, "But that's all I have!"
And then I realized that really is a lot of it. I don't have anything else I can point to and say, "see? This makes me OK. This makes me Good Enough." All there is that I can point to is Good Grades, and even they're not really enough -- after all, no one sees them -- and when other people try to tell me that I don't need to push so hard, that I should be proud and satisfied with less, etc, I can't take it in partly because that does feel like the only part of my identity that I can point to as Good Enough.
And even those aren't quite good enough, since I don't have a degree in middle age, and I'm taking classes at a community college. So my As are the equivalent of Cs at a private college or university.
I guess it somehow feels as though I'm being patronized, too. More of the "you don't deserve anything better, because you haven't contributed anything, and won't contribute anything." [bad word]
I think maybe I'm not doing all that well right now. [emulates a Hoover] a lot, you know?
Posted by annierose on July 14, 2006, at 6:44:30
In reply to Something individual came out in marriage session, posted by Racer on July 14, 2006, at 1:26:09
>>>So my As are the equivalent of Cs at a private college or university. <<<
That's not true. I did go to a respected major university but I hated their math department. So during the summer, I'd take my math requirements at the local community college whose teachers were IMO superior. It's not where you take a class, it's usually who is teaching the class.
It sounds like you feel, you are never good enough. You diminish your achievements, big and small. Does that feel "old" --- like it's been playing in your head since childhood?
Posted by daisym on July 14, 2006, at 11:58:21
In reply to Something individual came out in marriage session, posted by Racer on July 14, 2006, at 1:26:09
You sound a lot like me when I talk about how I feel about my children leaving home. I get pretty much the same speech from everyone: "You've done your job because they are great kids and ready to fly from the nest." And inside my head the answer is always the same: "but when they leave, who AM I? At least I know I've always been a good mom. Now what?"
The same goes for being smart. Maybe because my mom valued it above everything else. Maybe because it is something that can't be taken away.
Sounds like a very important "aha" for you. So now what?
Posted by caraher on July 14, 2006, at 12:06:13
In reply to Re: Something individual came out in marriage session, posted by annierose on July 14, 2006, at 6:44:30
I just want to back up what annierose said. I teach at a private university and have taken classes at a community college, a "second tier" state university and a prestigious state university, and there's essentially no significant difference among them in terms of what a grade means or how hard it is to earn a good one in lower-level (first and second year) courses. I see bigger differences between courses at a given school than between types of institutions.
Of course, community colleges don't (generally?) have upper-level courses. It's at the advanced undergraduate and graduate level where institutional differences really come into play.
Getting an "A" means you more than met all the challenges that course offered you. If you'd taken a "harder" course instead you might still have met all the challenges. You just can't tell.
And as annierose mentioned, you often get better teaching at schools where the faculty are less research-driven. So you may well have learned more than some "A" students in an equivalent class in a high-powered university!
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2006, at 16:24:50
In reply to Something individual came out in marriage session, posted by Racer on July 14, 2006, at 1:26:09
As a former academic overachiever I understand this perfectly. Except for the part where you downplay what you've done academically. An A is an A. You can't compare it to anything else, because nothing else was there to compare it with. There's no saying you wouldn't have gotten the same score wherever you were.
It's not of course all you have, any more than it was all I had. But it can feel that way when you're in an academic setting.
I wish I knew the answer.
I'm not sure how you convince yourself you're good enough. I'm not sure reason works too well in convincing yourself of the truth of your goodness in the face of visceral insistence otherwise. But it can't hurt to start there.
It sounds as if you have a husband who understands a bit? And thinks you underestimate yourself?
Posted by Racer on July 15, 2006, at 16:56:21
In reply to Re: Something individual came out in marriage sess » Racer, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2006, at 16:24:50
First of all, thank you to everyone who did respond, and let me also say that I have found that community colleges often offer much better classes than universities, just because there's not the same pressure to publish. In fact, the professor I had at uni who was most held up as proof of quality because of the number of his published works was also the absolute worst! (Of course, I checked: many of his publications were actually newspaper essays. NOT all that prestigious, huh?) I know that the classes aren't necessarily "worse" in any way, but it also seems as though they're truly set up for ANYONE to get an A with a minimum of effort.
And Dinah? I gots a bit more to say to you... {sigh}...
>Except for the part where you downplay what you've done academically. An A is an A. You can't compare it to anything else, because nothing else was there to compare it with. There's no saying you wouldn't have gotten the same score wherever you were.
I think that's the problem, and I also think AnnieRose is onto something. I think this is something I was trained to do. Did I ever tell you what my mother said to me once? (OK, how would you know until I tell you what she said. {sticks tongue out}) "You're not really so smart, you know. You didn't learn to read on your own -- you had to learn it in school."
How's that for setting impossible standards? And, of course, since that's what I got during my formative years, that's what I've taken with me. I need to do it all perfectly, AND I need to have learned it on my own, AND I need to get it all right the first time. "You have the ability to get every single one of those problems right, therefore there is no reason not to." Of course I'm going to feel as though I've failed when I don't get 100%.
Problem is, I do feel as though I've failed when I don't get 100%. It's not a case of aiming higher so you can hit a slightly lower target -- it's a case of aiming higher.
>
> It's not of course all you have, any more than it was all I had. But it can feel that way when you're in an academic setting.But Dinah? It's not being in an academic setting. It just is. No one else knows or cares about my grades, I don't socialize with anyone from my classes, etc. The pressure isn't from the environment.
Partly it's just because, well, it's because now if I get a lower grade, I'll "ruin my record," which is just stupid. Dumb, stupid, idiotic, etc. But there it is. I'm afraid of what will happen if I get a different grade.
I guess I'm afraid of losing the one thing I have had up until now. The only thing I can say I have done "right."
>
> I'm not sure how you convince yourself you're good enough. I'm not sure reason works too well in convincing yourself of the truth of your goodness in the face of visceral insistence otherwise. But it can't hurt to start there.
>
> It sounds as if you have a husband who understands a bit? And thinks you underestimate yourself?I don't know. My husband said the other night that he gets really frustrated with me, because (sorry, I don't know how to do this without using numbers) I got 98% in that psych class, and wasn't satisfied with it, and he wouldn't be able to get that high no matter how hard he tried. That's when I blurted out that it was the only thing I had.
I hadn't quite put words on that before, but it fits. I'm a pathetic loser, who has never been able to support myself like a grown up, who hasn't ever been able to keep a "real" job for more than about 2 years, who can't keep house worth beans, and is generally just a failure at everything you can name. But, I have gotten good grades in college. (I failed everything before that, though.) It's the one thing I can point to and say, "But I succeeded there."
He said something today, too, about "listen to this guy's CV, ... and he did all that before he was 40. Makes me wonder what I've done with my life." My response? "And think how it makes me feel, honey -- at least you've been able to keep a job."
Posted by Jost on July 15, 2006, at 19:01:01
In reply to Re: Something individual came out in marriage sess, posted by Racer on July 15, 2006, at 16:56:21
What do you want to accomplish that you haven't, Racer?
Because while I fully empathize with the sense of failure, and non-accomplishment, what you have or haven't done is not an account of what you can do in the future.
I've spent lots and lots of time berating myself for not having done anything worthwhile-- but spending time berating myself, and dealing with emotional fall-out of my self-reproach-- is a significant part of why I never did anything (to the extent that I never did, if I didn't). Or what I did instead of doing "something."
So, what would you like to do? say in the next five years? cause you (or I) could start working on that-- rather than being sad, or angry, at ourselves for what we didn't do before.
Are you working toward something? even a short-term something, that could be part of a longer-term something?
Jost
Posted by llrrrpp on July 19, 2006, at 22:41:43
In reply to Re: Something individual came out in marriage sess » Racer, posted by Jost on July 15, 2006, at 19:01:01
how about an attempt to "reframe" your accomplishments, since I just learned what that was while catching up on babble tonight
Don't think about the final grade. That's a letter, on a piece of paper.
Think about the work that you did. The dedication towards making academics a real priority in your complicated life. Think about what you learned. Think about the projects that you completed- what kind of skills you have. Think about success less as a pass/fail judgment (as if bestowed upon only the worthy by some super-human instructor) but rather as a gauge, like a gas meter. If it's low, you work harder, if it's full enough, you know you've got enough power to get where you're going, regardless of whether the tank is filled to the brim.
I hope you don't set your standards so high only to give yourself a good excuse to beat yourself up. (I'm sure you've heard this one before?!?)
I'm proud of you, and it sounds like your husband is proud of you too. My mom was an instructor at a community college for many years. She had a degree from an Ivy League university and LOVED her job. If you had gotten an A in her course, it meant that you learned a lot and that you were really motivated and trying hard
love yourself :o)
-ll
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