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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 46. Go back in thread:
Posted by orchid on April 19, 2006, at 18:36:59
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by daisym on April 19, 2006, at 16:32:43
My above post went without the body.
This is a personal apology to you Daisy - I didn't mean to hurt you or anyone else.
I thought about it after reading fairywings post above, about this woman who confides in her husband. And it occurred to me how it would have been if my husband had been in that role, and then the extrapolation of the query to the role of a T/T's wife's feelings. And I posted my own feelings around it.
I don't want you to feel bad, or anyone else.
Posted by Poet on April 19, 2006, at 18:45:16
In reply to Re: Honest Answer from both sides (sort of), posted by Poet on April 19, 2006, at 18:35:52
My husband has never told me that any of his clients are in love with him, but the few I've met have said things like *hubby is so wonderful. You are so lucky* Yeah, you don't do his laundry, including the sheets on the massage table!
Poet
Posted by madeline on April 19, 2006, at 19:53:07
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by daisym on April 19, 2006, at 16:32:43
I could not agree with you more. I've struggled and struggled with whether my feelings for my T are appropriate.
I even asked him if they were appropriate and he said "ABSOLUTELY!".
My relationship with him IS the therapeutic process for me. I'm not trying to bust up a marriage. I just want to get better.
And I did feel a little hurt by this thread too.
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2006, at 20:04:39
In reply to Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by orchid on April 19, 2006, at 13:11:37
My therapist has never done anything to dishonor his wife or threaten their marriage.
I've never done anything in therapy that dishonors my husband or threatens my marriage.
I don't understand sexual or romantic attractions too well, but I'm emotionally intimate with my therapist. And he is responsive to my emotional intimacy.
I wouldn't mind it if my husband did what my therapist does, or if he saw a female therapist to do what I do.
I don't tend to be all that jealous though, and I don't tend to put too much emphasis on the whole male/female thing so perhaps I'm not a good example.
Posted by Daisym on April 20, 2006, at 3:11:31
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » daisym, posted by orchid on April 19, 2006, at 18:36:59
It felt to me like thinly disguised disapproval of intense feelings for a therapist. I've felt this way before -- that even though the words express an overtly politically correct message, that these feelings were OK or whatever, the truth under the lip service is that they aren't. I just get riled up at back handed slaps. I have no problem having an honest disagreement about this particular subject.
Posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 7:41:14
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » orchid, posted by Daisym on April 20, 2006, at 3:11:31
((((((( Daisy)))))))
Thank you for saying what I couldn't say without getting blocked.
Love is love, feelings are feelings, no matter what labels people put on them. That is my story and I am sticking to it. I think feeling love for others is beautiful no matter what others think. It feels good to love. Love is natural and normal, who wouldn't love their T's ?
Posted by one woman cine on April 20, 2006, at 7:56:49
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by daisym on April 19, 2006, at 16:32:43
> I think this is an inflammatory thread, with potential to make a lot of people feel bad and I know better than respond.
>
> But..
>
> This issue was brought up before by someone who said she was the significant other of a therapist. I took her posts into therapy with me, because essentially she said we should all be ashamed of ourselves and get a life. My therapist said she had no right to speak for others and that most therapists, and their spouses, know this is part of the package. >Just for the record, Daisym - I feel your statements are inflammatory towards me and my previous postings - this is NOT AT ALL what I said and for your to characterize them as so is hurtful to say the very least. I am sorry if my opinions have irked you in any way. I apologize for my prior honesty - but just because I don't post here anymore does not give any one the right to speak for me or to mis-use me statements. I did not speak for anyone BUT MYSELF, not even for my SO. I gave my feelings and my opinions in an extremely civil manner and your comments are inflammatory. I had made comments about situations where MY PERSONAL life has been intruded upon by overly attached patients, including being stalked. Perhaps that is something that you should bring up to your therapist instead of judging me, which your post MOST certainly does.
Posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 8:42:06
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » daisym, posted by one woman cine on April 20, 2006, at 7:56:49
I don't believe Daisy was even speaking about you at all. I think she was speaking in general terms.
I feel you are projecting yourself into her message that has nothing to do with you. Daisy doesn't cause trouble around here, we all love her and think she is great. She is not mean to anyone.
Posted by one woman cine on April 20, 2006, at 8:57:43
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » one woman cine, posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 8:42:06
This what Daisy said,
***This issue was brought up before by someone who said she was the significant other of a therapist. I took her posts into therapy with me, because essentially she said we should all be ashamed of ourselves and get a life. My therapist said she had no right to speak for others and that most therapists, and their spouses, know this is part of the package.****
Sorry happyflower, but is certainly NOT general terms, this is someone specific. No, she specifically said *she* and made various allusions to what I said previously. If that's not the case, I'd like to know the *she* daisy is referring to. I'm sure Daisy is a great person, but her post *paraphrasing* (a particular poster, me - in this case) my statements is extremely unkind and uncivil.
Posted by Dinah on April 20, 2006, at 9:05:11
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by daisym on April 19, 2006, at 16:32:43
> I took her posts into therapy with me, because essentially she said we should all be ashamed of ourselves and get a life. My therapist said she had no right to speak for others...
Hi Daisy. Former posters are covered by the same civility guidelines as current posters, and so I'm going to have to ask you to please be sensitive to the feelings of other posters even if yours are hurt and to not post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to reverse or adjust deputy decisions as he sees fit. If you wish to contact him directly, his email is on the bottom of each page.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on April 20, 2006, at 9:09:28
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » daisym, posted by one woman cine on April 20, 2006, at 7:56:49
> Just for the record, Daisym - I feel your statements are inflammatory towards me and my previous postings ...
> Perhaps that is something that you should bring up to your therapist instead of judging me, which your post MOST certainly does.
>I'm going to have to ask you to please follow the civility guidelines, which ask that you please be sensitive to the feelings of other posters even if yours are hurt. And please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to reverse or adjust deputy decisions as he sees fit. If you wish to contact him directly, his email is on the bottom of each page.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by zazenduck on April 20, 2006, at 9:17:57
In reply to Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by orchid on April 19, 2006, at 13:11:37
http://www.shirleyglass.com/quizfriendship.php
Therapy does sound like an emotional affair doesn't it? Even if it isn't meant to be. I think an emotional affair would hurt me more than a physical one. (Although that would be a relationship ender too.)I also think most therapists share more of themselves in therapy than some might think. Even listening to intimate secrets and responding in a certain way is revealing of the therapists inner self I think. And I just don't think intimacy is something you can share with an unlimited number of people without diminishing it.
Posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 9:36:51
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by zazenduck on April 20, 2006, at 9:17:57
I kinda agree. Therapy isn't being taken place in a bubble. It still involves 2 people both with pasts, and futures. It is a give and take. Nobody knows what really goes on in the room between the two people except the 2 people. Even then it is each person perception of what is going on.
I believe good therapy is an intimacy between two people. Even though there are boundries, feelings are flowing both ways. And some of those feeling are love and caring.
If my DH was a T , it would be tough I think knowing he so much to others, but in a way it is a compliment too.
A month ago I was telling my T I felt like such a fraud. I have been sort of mentoring some younger people and giving them love advice. I am like I know I am giving good advice, but I feel so fake because my love life is so much in trouble.
My T said that people are seeing the good stuff in you and feel that you can give offer good advice. A lot of T's have had or is having a very troubled life, but they can still be great T's. My T said a cardiogist can still be a good doctor even thought he might have heart trouble too. I guess I got off the subject here. sorry
Posted by orchid on April 20, 2006, at 13:14:02
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » orchid, posted by Daisym on April 20, 2006, at 3:11:31
The truth is, it is about my feelings that I expressed.
I am not a T to stick to one particular idea all the time and take one particular stance. I am also a patient, and my idea of attachment and feelings towards therapists keep varying.
Some days I think it is perfectly allright, and it is the way it should be and ought to be, and it is best to go through it and come out on the other end.
The other days, like yesterday, I felt so horrible for having been attached to another married man (just as many of us here have felt at one time or the other). And thought of how I would feel if I was a T's wife, and how I would feel if my husband had to share many intimate secrets to another woman and get attached to her and not me - and it didn't feel very good at all. I felt horrible *about myself* for having done what I did.
Maybe it wasn't rational, or even correct, but I felt really horrible and bad yesterday, about myself, and the tone in my post expressed these feelings. I didn't even think of you and happyflower or others here in the same situation. The question was to all of us here only as an extrapolation, but most of all, I was speaking of myself and my husband and my T and my T's wife. I didn't say you all should apologize. I said I should. It wasn't any disguised attempt to ridicule or hurt anyone's feelings. How can you believe that I would do such a thing after seeing me here for such a long time? Sometimes I do say things little bluntly, but that mostly comes out before even I have a chance to correct myself. Honestly, what prompted above post was after reading Fairywings post above, and I wrote my post in an instant, without giving too much thought or trying to make it sensitive or be polite. I felt so repulsive of myself for having ever been in a position of Fairywing's husband's colleague, (though my situation was with a T, and it was quite appropriate at afterthought, at that moment, I didn't differentiate it). And I didn't remember either you or happyflower when I wrote that post. Maybe I should have, but it just didn't occur to me.
I have said before, and I will say it again, it wasn't meant to hurt you or HappyFlower. It honestly wasn't.
It was a controversial and provoking post, I agree - but that doesn't mean it was a mean and disguised attempt to hurt anyone's feelings. In fact, only after I read your reply, did it even occur to me that my post could hurt someone, and I added the trigger immediately afterwards.
Posted by Tamar on April 25, 2006, at 20:30:02
In reply to Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by orchid on April 19, 2006, at 13:11:37
I think this is never going to be an easy thing to discuss!
I’m not sure how I’d feel if my husband were a therapist, but I do know that he sometimes has close emotional relationships with the women he works with. And as long as those relationships are not a threat to my marriage I don’t feel jealous. If I ever thought there was any danger to my marriage I’d probably be quite upset! But I know for a fact that my husband is attracted to some of his female friends and colleagues. And I know that some of them are attracted to him. It doesn’t mean he wants to be unfaithful; it doesn’t mean they want to take him away from me. It’s just the way biology works. And also: wishing to be someone’s lover is a completely different thing from acting on that wish (and usually the fantasy is much better than the reality!).
I wouldn’t worry too much about my husband going to a female therapist because I’ve read that transference tends to work rather differently when the woman is the therapist and the man is the client.
I think it’s important to remember the symbolic aspect of many of those feelings. That’s why they’re healthy: they tell you something about what you’re missing in life. If I love my therapist because I imagine he’s romantic and emotionally articulate, then maybe I feel a lack of romance and emotional connectedness in my marriage. I can’t get what I want from my therapist but he can help me try to figure out how to live with what I’ve got, or how to make changes to make my relationship better.
I don’t think you owe anyone an apology. Your feelings for your therapist are necessary in order for you to be able to explore the possibilities of change in your life. Your feelings don’t harm your therapist or his wife, and they don’t harm your husband. In fact, as you are able to work through them, you may find that the experience actually improves your marriage by helping you to understand better what you want from your relationship.
And (since a certain previous discussion has already been alluded to) I still feel quite strongly about some of the ideas that came up in one woman cine’s thread. And I still believe (as I said in that thread) that it’s not helpful for clients to worry about the feelings of their therapist’s partner. The therapeutic boundaries are supposed to keep the relationship from developing into something more conventionally sexualised, and the advantage is that it should be possible to be much more open than in normal social situations. Well, that’s my two cents anyway.
I hope you won’t beat yourself up too much about your feelings for your therapist. If you can work with them instead of against them you might find them ultimately useful.
Tamar
Posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 7:48:40
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » orchid, posted by Tamar on April 25, 2006, at 20:30:02
Tamar,
I really liked your post and I think you've hit the nail on the head. I do think feelings are useful and no matter what they are, are not harmful & can actually serve both parties in the therapeutic process. I think I said as much in my previous thread. However, I'm worried that what I did say has lead to hard feelings and misconstruction of my words and what I was conveying. I don't think its ever the clients'/patients problem as to anyone's feelings except their own. Everyone in that process is responsible for themselves, including the therapist. I am in therapy so I am no stranger to transference either. My only point of contention is when the therapy spills out of the the therapeutic space (whatever the agreed upon space is, by the way) and intrudes upon mine. I don't think that's wrong of me to feel upset (not to mentioned alarmed), when a patient decides(?) to transgress the therapeutic boundaries and intrude upon the personal life of the therapist et al. I don't think it happens often, but trust me - it happens. I think if anyone here was stalked, people here would empathize with that. But because I was stalked by a patient - no one really cares & it seems like it's OK for that to happen. It's absolutely not. Does this mean I'm condemning patients? Absolutely not, but I am justifiably upset when it happens. It seems like it's OK because a patient is curious, to call their therapists home phone number, to follow them, etc etc. & I think therapy is unique, but so are alot of things, it doesn't give anyone the right to invade someone's privacy. I would just like a little slack for some traumatic events that have happened to me, but I don't seem to get it. Instead, I'm feel as if I'm being raked over the coals for just trying to defend myself and my personal space - which every person has a right to. Enough said.
Posted by madeline on April 26, 2006, at 8:14:07
In reply to Thank you Tamar, posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 7:48:40
Being stalked must be terrifying, no doubt. I would be livid if someone did that to me.
Therefore, one does have to wonder, however, why you chose this board to express those feelings.
Was it to warn people that this actually does happen?
Was it misdirected anger at the posters here? None of whom have crossed the therapeutic boundary, in fact, this board probably keeps a lot of people from doing just that.
Was it that you wanted to strike back and the people that hurt you?
Was it that you thought people here would provide the best support for what you were going through?
I wasn't around during the original posts, but obviously your posts triggered a lot of emotional responses from people and all I am asking is "why here?"
Posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 8:34:44
In reply to Re: Thank you Tamar » one woman cine, posted by madeline on April 26, 2006, at 8:14:07
I don't know, are you asking me to justify why I was here? Does anyone else have to do that? I think you should read my orginal introduction - I was here for my own difficulties in therapy - I feel like you are jumping to conclusions about me. I'm not sure what your implying - maybe you can clarify it? & unless I'm off base, I don't think it was ever wrong to give another perspective.
Posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 8:38:05
In reply to Re: Thank you Tamar » one woman cine, posted by madeline on April 26, 2006, at 8:14:07
People have difficulties with many topics, but still express them here - like rape, SI, csa - does that mean they shouldn't post it because others here may have trouble with it? I'm not sure what your asking "why I chose this board"? I chose this board because no one here is censored and it was something I had an opinion about.
Posted by Tamar on April 26, 2006, at 9:13:43
In reply to Thank you Tamar, posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 7:48:40
Hi one woman cine,
Thanks for your reply. I’m very sorry you were stalked. I’ve heard it’s a very violating experience and very frightening. And it must feel very strange to know that you show up in the dreams and fantasies of people you’ve never met, just because your partner is treating them. I can imagine it would make you feel uneasy, especially when some of these people intrude into your private space. I don’t want to minimise that at all; of course you are alarmed when that happens.
I think it must be very complicated being the partner of a therapist because of course she knows all these clients and all their stories and perhaps can understand what’s going on in their minds when they phone your home, but of course you don’t have that knowledge of them. You’re a little removed from the situation. So I imagine it must be harder for you to handle than for your partner. And being stalked by someone you don’t know, but who has some kind of emotional attachment to your partner, must be devastating.
I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I’ll admit that I’m very curious about my therapist’s partner. I imagine her as a very interesting, intelligent and sweet person, because I want my therapist to have a partner who is good for him. If I saw them together in a mall or something I suspect the temptation to follow them for a little while would be overwhelming. I want to know something about her because she’s so important to him. I don’t want to steal him away from her, and I don’t want to hurt either of them, but my curiosity is sometimes profound. I know their home phone number (I found it on google) but I can’t imagine ever calling. But on the other hand, I think I’d find it difficult to make a promise that I’d never ever call. I hope I will never call. I hope I will always be able to persuade myself that calling would be wrong and intrusive. But I also know my dark side. I would like to be a good person, but sometimes I do bad things. I’m not proud of it, but I know I can’t ever promise to be completely good.
And I guess that’s the grey area into which this discussion inevitably falls. It’s hard to distinguish between boundaries around feelings and boundaries around action. It’s hard to understand how feelings of love can be useful and healthy but that those feelings can only be appropriately expressed within certain limits. It seems almost paradoxical to me that I’m allowed to love my therapist but I’m not allowed to phone him at home or hug him or buy him a book. When I think about the limits, it feels as though my desires must be bad; as if my feelings of love must be bad. And I feel bad and disgusting for wanting things that he doesn’t seem to want. And although my rational side understands the necessity of boundaries, my emotional side finds it incredibly hurtful. At the same time I want so desperately to believe that he loves me as much as I love him; that he’d be pleased to hear from me if I phoned him, or pleased to see me at the mall or whatever. I want to believe that I’m loveable to him. I want to believe he’d always be happy to see me, in any circumstances. It’s hard to believe that the love that we do in therapy can’t be replicated outside his office.
No one should stalk you. And no one should intrude into your private life. Unfortunately, it’s probably inevitable that some clients won’t be able to control their impulses. That doesn’t make it OK for them to phone you at home or follow you. I don’t know how other partners of therapists deal with that. Ideally clients would deal with it by exploring their desires and wishes in therapy. But the shame involved makes it so hard to address. I wish there were an easy solution.
Tamar
Posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 9:30:08
In reply to Re: Thank you Tamar » one woman cine, posted by Tamar on April 26, 2006, at 9:13:43
I just want to say as well, the majority of patients do not do the aforementioned behavior.I appreciate your post and can imagine your therapist is lucky to have a patient as warm and insightful as yourself. It is a grey area, and I can appreciate the complexity of what your saying - natural curiouslty is one thing (& aren't we all curious?) but crossing a boundary is something else. Thanks for understanding what I was trying to say, without any judgement.
Posted by orchid on April 26, 2006, at 19:33:50
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » orchid, posted by Tamar on April 25, 2006, at 20:30:02
Thanks Tamar.
I really liked the analogy of the relationship being symbolic.
I think that one word really says it all :-)
Good choice of words.
Orchid
Posted by happyflower on April 26, 2006, at 20:05:44
In reply to Re: Thank you Tamar » Tamar, posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 9:30:08
I know it feels awful and scary being stalked, it has happened to me before. I believe most of your partner's clients do follow the rules I am sure. But you have to realize the nature of the business your partner is in, they are dealing with people who have emotional and physical problems and they don't always know how to control themselves because they are mentally ill or having a lot of emotional issues.
So I am sure this kind of thing, although doesn't happen every day or every month, to your partner, will probably happen again because of the work they choose to do. Is it right? NO , absolutely not. But also keep in mind that not all clients know the boundry lines either. My T has never told me I can't come to his house or call him at home. Would I do it, no, but I am not unstable or mentally ill, and know what is appropriate. But a lot of clients do not know what is and isn't appropriate behavior, heck that is why they are in therapy in the first place.
Posted by happyflower on April 26, 2006, at 20:19:36
In reply to therapy boundries (one woman cine), posted by happyflower on April 26, 2006, at 20:05:44
I am also thinking that this board is good when you need help dealing with therapy but maybe isn't the best place to get support for those in a personal relationship or marriage with a T who have issues with being in that position.
Maybe since it affects your SO, maybe they know a support board for T's and their partners. I am sure there are other issues that you would have in common with these people since you share this in common.
I hope you don't think I am saying you shouldn't be on this board, I think you should because you are in therapy like the rest of us.
Kinda like I know there is a parenting board, but if I have issues concerning step-parenting, I know I will receive more support from a specific board for stepparents. I wouldn't go to a stepkids board and expect them to know or understand where I am coming from.
Posted by madeline on April 26, 2006, at 20:46:17
In reply to And...., posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 8:38:05
>>I chose this board because no one here is censored and it was something I had an opinion about<<
Thanks, that's really all I wanted to know. Really.
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