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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on February 23, 2006, at 2:02:21
Some of you may know that I decided, after a long absence doing things like trying desperately to pay my bills, to go back to school. I'm starting out with 2 classes, since it has been 15 years now, and one of those two classes is a math class I took 15 years ago. I passed that class, with a grade of A.
My GPA for math and science was 4.0.
Today, my T and I talked about the amount of pressure I feel to get another A, to get 100% on all homework and quizzes and tests, to understand all of it without struggling. And you know what? I am struggling! Part of that is not being very structured about doing homework, which I better do something about soon if I plan to get that A, but part of it is that I'm really not getting some of it. That got me off topic, the topic being the discussion in session today...
My T started asking me *why* I felt the need to get an A? Said I should get over my fear of not getting an A by not getting an A. And then being OK with that.
Well, I told her, there is no reason I shouldn't get an A. I am capable of getting an A, and so that's what I should strive for. All I have to do is work hard enough.
Mind you, the discussion probably went on a little longer than that, but then she said something of which I'm not at all sure of the meaning: that I was twisting it around somehow. I'm not sure what she thought I was twisting, because I really do think that, if I work hard enough, I should get an A, because I am able to get an A. Now, I know that the fear I have about NOT getting that A is a problem, and that it's something we'll have to work on me getting over -- although, please, not by getting a non-A! -- but the basic idea seems sound to me: I have the ability to pass this class with a grade of A, and therefore that's what I'll be working towards.
(Of course, I also have all that math anxiety, despite everything, and I worry that, unless I really "get" this, I won't be able to keep up on the next class...)
Does anyone see something that I'm twisting, or turning around? Maybe help me figure out what she's trying to get at?
Also, the worst part of this? I realized tonight, that I really enjoy this -- EXCEPT that I have the anxiety about doing it all correctly. If I didn't have that fear that I won't get a good enough grade, I think I'd enjoy this a lot. In order to figure out where I have problems, I've been doing all the odd numbered problems, since the answers for those are in the book, and then I redo any I get wrong until I figure out what I've done wrong. It's a good feeling, when I'm checking off all those correct answers...
Then again, there's also a lot of fear, that sense that I can do it this week, but next week I won't be able to do it. Next week, we'll get to something I won't be able to understand, or keep up with. (Doesn't help that the instructor devoted four whole minutes at the end of the last class to "teaching" what we'd be doing for homework. He isn't great at pacing himself -- the other two hours of class time were spent in review and the first of two sections we were assigned in homework. So, we got a lot of review, a lot of time devoted to a variation on what we were reviewing -- and four minutes on a whole new topic...) So, partly I enjoy doing the extra work, makes me feel virtuous (Calvin has a lot to answer for, let me tell you), but partly it really is fear that I won't be able to keep up. So, while I say, with false confidence, that I have the ability to earn an A, maybe the problem is that it's all based in fear?
ARGH! You know? Math is easier than this is.
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2006, at 8:59:14
In reply to What my T said about me and school, posted by Racer on February 23, 2006, at 2:02:21
Maybe she was afraid you would have some of the same problems I had in school.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/studs/20050329/msgs/513707.html
I'm not saying you would, just that she might be asking for that reason.
I'm trying soooo hard not to pressure my son to do well, but I think I'm not so good at that. Fortunately he's not the best student in the class, but I may well be passing down the family curse. Well, mine. My husband was just smart and did well. He wasn't obsessed.
I'm afraid I don't know the answer. I have the problem in other aspects of my life as well. If I know I can do something I feel like I should. But nowhere did it manifest itself like it did at school.
I think the closest I've come to thinking of a mantra for myself is remembering that a year or so after I graduated, my grades for seventeen years didn't mean a blasted thing. I just as well have graduated with straight C's for all the difference it made in my life.
Does that help any? :)
Posted by Gee on February 23, 2006, at 10:54:58
In reply to Re: What my T said about me and school » Racer, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2006, at 8:59:14
I know where you're coming from. It's hard when you have a bad a prof, and really high expectations. Why do you expect yourself to get an A? I know you can do it, but are there any other reasons? I use to put a lot of presure on myself to get amazing grades, but the tole it was taking on me just wasn't worth it. If you don't understand something could you go talk to your prof?
Good luck with the math
Posted by fairywings on February 23, 2006, at 12:01:50
In reply to What my T said about me and school, posted by Racer on February 23, 2006, at 2:02:21
Hi Racer,I recently went back to school too, and this reminds me of a conversation I had with my ex T. He teaches, and he said the big difference between a lot of the older students and some of the younger ones is that the older ones are there to learn, but more than that, they enjoy learning. He said sometimes the younger ones just want to know enough to get by, or just want to know what he'll be testing on.
He told me not to worry if I didn't get all A's, that anything C or better was good enough. Of course I'd like to get all A's, but I know I'm not good at certain things, so maybe I won't.
It seems like, from what you're saying, you equate an A with knowing and understanding the information? But because you're struggling you're afraid you'll get to the point where you fall behind, don't understand, and won't get an A?
You say you're not structured, I"m not either. I guess the only way to be more that way, is to divide the work into manageable chunks and not stray from a schedule. I guess it has to be pretty consistent. I know, easier said than done.
Also if you have fear of failure, and fear that you're not getting it, and fear that you'll fall behind, then maybe you get so wrapped up in the fear that you can't focus on what you're doing, or what's being reviewed in class. Since you do all of those problems over and over, do you find the class review time helpful at all, or just frustrating? You sound frustrated that there's not much in class teaching. Is it poss. to talk to the prof., explain what's going on, ask for more in class teaching, or some help in a lab?
About the ability to get A's. My daughter does this too - she is VERY intelligent, but boy does she stress out, all her friends do. If she were to get a B she would be very upset. She does have the ability to get all A's, but her coursework is incredibly strenuous. At some point she might very well get a B. You're only human, we make mistakes. Math is one of those things that one little error, and that's it. Maybe if you talk to the prof., and they realize how committed and stressed you are, they can offer some advice.
I have all the fears you have, some of mine is knowing there are ppl watching for grades - my husband, my kids, and my T. Makes me very nervous. I also feel I have to prove something because my daughter works so hard, gets such good grades, and I am not a natural student. I don't want her to see me fail. I'd like to be a good role model for her - she's actually a good role model for me.
I don't know if any of this helps, I hope something does. Oh btw, I had to take this test, and I kept procrastinating - so much that I couldn't get in last quarter. Well, I finally took the test, got the results, beat myself up for a full day - thinking the results meant I'd failed, when actually I'd passed out of 3 classes, and did okay on another test - not where I wanted to be, but where I need to be - so I won't be in over my head.
It is all so frustrating, isn't it?
fw
Posted by James K on February 23, 2006, at 13:08:33
In reply to What my T said about me and school, posted by Racer on February 23, 2006, at 2:02:21
Perfectionism is hard. The sciences demand it though. What good is a math problem that sends a rocket into space with the camera off focus.
We, however, especially "us" don't need perfectionism. If you get a B or C accept it and find where you went wrong. But if you let it destroy you or make you quit, perfectionism won.
Hey Dinah, I was a national merit semi-finalist. Imagine what that feels like. My test score was good enough but I wasn't. That felt real f*cking good. I guess I'm missing my 20th reunion somewhere this year. I should go and find out if the rich kids who did make the cut, 4 out of 5 in my class, make more than 15k a year, when they work.
This relates to you Racer, because I went nothing if I couldn't have all. Thats what perfectionism will take you to. I'm bitter today, sorry. I feel like I shouldn't be allowed on the psychology board.
James K
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2006, at 13:32:28
In reply to Re: What my T said about me and school, posted by James K on February 23, 2006, at 13:08:33
There were three of us in our class of fifty. I have some idea of what happened to the third one. I'm the underperforming one (after college at least), the other two are doing well enough, but none of us did anything commensurate with the honor. :) Don't feel bad about it.
I didn't remember there being anything other than the test though? Nothing personal. I can't imagine that two of us would have made it if there was a personal qualities assessment involved.
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2006, at 13:33:19
In reply to Re: What my T said about me and school » James K, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2006, at 13:32:28
I'm including myself in the two, of course.
Posted by fallsfall on February 23, 2006, at 13:56:19
In reply to What my T said about me and school, posted by Racer on February 23, 2006, at 2:02:21
Yeah, I can relate.
I'm trying to focus on learning what I need to learn, rather than on getting the "A". Of course, so far, I'm getting the "A". But I'm trying to learn how to balance other things in my life at the same time. To learn how to fight the workaholacism tendencies.
I don't know what I'll do when I do get less than an "A"...
Math takes practice. Taking the class 15 years ago doesn't mean a whole lot. There has been a lot of time for you to forget the details, so don't feel badly about being confused.
And try not to overwork. My daughter, in 6th grade, agreed to cut the work that she was doing from 100% to 70%. Funny thing, with 70% effort she STILL got "A's".
School is so much more than just learning math...........
Posted by James K on February 23, 2006, at 13:59:53
In reply to Re: What my T said about me and school, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2006, at 13:33:19
Sorry for the thread hijack racer. I admire and envy you for having the courage to go for it, fear crippled me.
Dinah, There was an essay and grade check and administration approval aspect to it. Maybe you aced that, or maybe it was a different era. this would have been 1986 or 5 for me. I did get a 3/4 full ride at UofH. 17 year old alcoholics in the honors program don't go far. I had a good time though. Except for the suicide attempt after my friends computer lost my first humanities paper. I'd never used a word processer before. I took regular beginners algebra, even though I'd done Trig. in school, because testing out was scarey. It was one of the most fascinating learning experiences of my life. I was an art major. After I left mid second semester, I said no more art, no more classes, just manual labor for me. If you don't work, you don't eat. That's in the bible. So, now I don't work, and I feel guilty for every meal. School is the biggest trigger for me.
I'd love to go back. I can't stand the other students.
Who was it who said they got a b in PE? slacker.
I hope ya'lls therapists can help with this. Tell me the answer for free when you get it.
James K
Posted by caraher on February 23, 2006, at 14:06:55
In reply to Re: What my T said about me and school, posted by James K on February 23, 2006, at 13:59:53
> Dinah, There was an essay and grade check and administration approval aspect to it. Maybe you aced that, or maybe it was a different era. this would have been 1986 or 5 for me.I graduated in '82 and was a National Merit Finalist. I'm 95% sure I didn't write an essay... My guess would be that it was up to schools to give approval for "advancing" to finalist status and your school thought the essay, etc. was an appropriate "filter."
I also felt bitter about the program, mostly because I didn't understand how it worked and the school counselor was worse than useless. I was under the impression that unless you had some personal connection to, say, a company sponsoring a scholarship, you could only get money through attending a school sponsoring a scholarship. So I applied for one at the only school I'd applied to that had its own merit scholarship program - a school that I had no interest in attending. So I got nothing out of the scholarship program.
Posted by caraher on February 23, 2006, at 14:17:50
In reply to What my T said about me and school, posted by Racer on February 23, 2006, at 2:02:21
How are you twisting things... well, you argue that because you are capable of getting an A you need to get an A. Maybe your T is asking you to think about what "needs" are genuine and which are not.
I may have been capable of doing all the odd problems and checking all the answers at the end of the book. But I never did that in school. Did I "need" to do that? Not really. My grades were fine, and I could do other things with that time.
The suggestion that you get a B or lower to realize the world doesn't come crashing down if you don't get an A is not about suggesting that you not get an A. It's about realizing that you have many needs, and that life is about choices. By pursuing a false need, or giving undue weight to one of several competing needs, you will be worse off than if you'd taken a more balanced approach to schoolwork.
I graduated first in my high school class and my eldest son currently holds that class rank. I did not obsess about grades for myself and I don't with him. But my wife gives him a big speech every time he doesn't get an A+ in a class she thinks is easy, complete with dire warnings about classmates who will "pass him." I think his being valedictorian means more to her than it did to me or does to our son. I learned that those grades meant nothing in terms of living a worthwhile life. And I definitely did not get all A grades in college and grad school, even when I was thoroughly "capable" of doing so. It just wasn't worth putting that much of myself into worrying about it.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 23, 2006, at 16:31:25
In reply to Re: National Merit stuff, posted by caraher on February 23, 2006, at 14:06:55
I was a semi-finalist. I never had to take an essay. This was pre-1986. I seem to recall that an essay was going to be part of the test process for upcoming classes, but mine was one of the last to avoid it. We were pleased, and we rubbed it in to the underclassmen, of course.
And I certainly did not blaze any academic trails right out of high school. Unless you count running away and avoiding it all as blazing a trail back to dependency.
Somebody just said something about potential being a terrible burden. Was it Lama Surya Das on the Colbert Report? (Never thought I'd put those two names together, but it happened!)
gg
Posted by Tamar on February 23, 2006, at 18:31:16
In reply to Re: What my T said about me and school, posted by caraher on February 23, 2006, at 14:17:50
Twisting things? I’m not sure. I think maybe Caraher is right about needs and wants. I did pretty badly at school (just made it into University by the skin of my teeth). In the first few months at University I worked very hard and got lots of As and then realised I could have more fun and get Bs… so that’s what I did. And yet after four years I finished top of my class and now I have a PhD and teach University… But one of my close friends dropped out of University because of depression and never finished her degree. She now has an amazing job and earns pots of money… So A grades aren’t everything.
I know you don’t want to sell yourself short. On the other hand, you also need to think about other factors in your life. Perhaps you’re not 100% healthy, in which case you need to devote time and attention to your health. I dunno… I’m just saying that grades are only one factor in life. Ask yourself whether you have to prove yourself, and to whom.
Tamar
Posted by pseudoname on February 23, 2006, at 18:37:58
In reply to What my T said about me and school, posted by Racer on February 23, 2006, at 2:02:21
Did I understand you correctly that your T suggested that you should DELIBERATELY NOT get an A?? I'm aghast.
There is no clinical, therapeutic reason to throw a grade. It is intellectually dishonest. Are you supposed to give up everything in your life that you fear losing, just so that you'll be without that fear?!
The type of in vivo, immersion-style exposure therapy she seems to be suggesting is not supported by research. If she wants you to become "habituated" to getting a mediocre grade, she should begin with thought experiments, narrative fantasies of getting bad grades, and so on.
An A is clearly something that YOU value. That's the important point. Being bullied by a therapist into giving up something that you value (and that has many other broad, healthy benefits) in order to try getting something SHE values (a life without fear?!) is not empowering.
Have I misunderstood her actual suggestion as she made it to you?
Posted by Tamar on February 23, 2006, at 18:54:19
In reply to Re: What my T said about me and school » caraher, posted by Tamar on February 23, 2006, at 18:31:16
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2006, at 19:55:22
In reply to Re: What my T said about me and school, posted by James K on February 23, 2006, at 13:59:53
You youngster you.
When I went to college, we had to learn computer science on the enormous mainframe. I used to have pretty violent fantasies about that thing.
It may have been before those requirements since I'm older than you. But frankly, I probably wouldn't remember. My only clear memories from my senior year of high school are social ones. Oh, I was so happy then. An oasis of happiness in my life, tenth and twelth grades. When a happy alien took over my body and I thoroughly enjoyed observing. :D
Posted by Racer on February 23, 2006, at 22:28:11
In reply to What?! » Racer, posted by pseudoname on February 23, 2006, at 18:37:58
> Did I understand you correctly that your T suggested that you should DELIBERATELY NOT get an A?? I'm aghast.
> >
> An A is clearly something that YOU value. That's the important point. Being bullied by a therapist into giving up something that you value (and that has many other broad, healthy benefits) in order to try getting something SHE values (a life without fear?!) is not empowering.
>
> Have I misunderstood her actual suggestion as she made it to you?Here's the thing: I know that I really am obsessive about things, and that the thing about As had a negative impact on me when I was in college the first time, many long years ago. (I'm a little older than GG, a bit younger, I think, than Dinah.) I know that it's a bit much to get the sort of physical clenching I get when I think about not getting an A.
For that matter, I know this: at my age, finishing my degree will not make much difference in terms of me getting a good job. My age is too much against me for that to matter. (Getting a doctorate, that would be a different story, but a BA? Even a BS? Not gonna matter.) So, this is just for personal enrichment of a very different kind. I'm not necessarily even going for a degree, frankly. While I am taking classes that will fill in some gaps for a degree for me, I'm taking them because I am interested in them, or I'm interested in something for which these are the prerequisites.
In other words, the grades don't really matter.
And yet, they matter a very, very great deal to me. We had our first quiz today, in this math class, and I triple checked my answers, to make very sure that every one was right. Because I have this visceral connection to getting *all* As. Back in the "real" days of college for me, I was even told that a cumulative GPA of 4.0 would not help me with anything in life. I was told that grad schools wanted a little less obsessiveness, and a little more extracurricular activity. (Mind you, I worked when I was in school -- thus not finishing, had to withdraw at the end of a semester to take a full time job when my part time job ended. After that, I just couldn't ever manage to have time and money at the same time, largely because this obsessiveness is a trait. I was the 12 hour a day employee, on salary, most of my working life to date.)
Anyway, my T wasn't telling me to throw a grade -- she was talking about easing up. I know that. But I get lost somewhere between the "ease up" and the part about it not being a deep character flaw not to put all of me into what I'm doing. Does that make sense?
I think about not working through all the problems in order to get them all right, and I do start to berate myself, for slacking off.
I think that's what she thinks I'm twisting. Sorry for going on so long, but maybe it gave me new insight. I do tend to think that it's a sign of bad character to do the minimum. (I've said it before -- Calvinism is a form of emotional abuse.)
OK, I'm done now. Sorry for rambling...
Posted by Racer on February 24, 2006, at 1:11:43
In reply to Re: What my T said about me and school, posted by caraher on February 23, 2006, at 14:17:50
>
> I may have been capable of doing all the odd problems and checking all the answers at the end of the book. But I never did that in school. Did I "need" to do that? Not really. My grades were fine, and I could do other things with that time.So, could be you're just smarter than I am?
In my case, it seems I do have to do more problems than just those assigned in homework in order to "get" all of it, and the mistakes I make show me where I need more work. In other words, for me, apparently I do need to do all the odd problems in order to do well.
I do take your point, but please keep in mind individual differences, 'K?
Oh, and in my very long post below, I think I figured out at least part of what she meant.
Posted by pseudoname on February 24, 2006, at 8:26:18
In reply to No, that wasn't what she meant (got long) » pseudoname, posted by Racer on February 23, 2006, at 22:28:11
> my T wasn't telling me to throw a grade
That's a relief!
Hmm. I suppose it's too late for this course, but since you're not necessarily interested in credit to a degree, is it possible to take classes "Pass / Fail" at your school?
Posted by Dinah on February 24, 2006, at 9:19:34
In reply to No, that wasn't what she meant (got long) » pseudoname, posted by Racer on February 23, 2006, at 22:28:11
> I do tend to think that it's a sign of bad character to do the minimum. (I've said it before -- Calvinism is a form of emotional abuse.)
I think I understand that. In me it's mixed with laziness, but...
I was talking to my son about this the other day. While he gets good grades, he tends to do the minimum he needs to get the grades he considers acceptable. And my husband and I were talking about it. We came to the conclusion that if you do 102% of what's expected, everyone's happy. But that it isn't necessary to do 110% or 120%. I used to be a 110%'er. If you are too, do you think you could scale it back to just a bit more than expected?
Posted by Racer on February 24, 2006, at 12:34:48
In reply to Re: No, that wasn't what she meant (got long) » Racer, posted by Dinah on February 24, 2006, at 9:19:34
Pseudoname, when I read your suggestion about pass/fail, I felt my stomach clench up -- too frightening. I want my As. Kinda like a Racer Cookie when I do good, you know? {sheepishly hanging head}
And Dinah? I'm afraid that doing "only" 102% would be too frightening, too.
Thinking about this the past few days, and posting about it here, and reading what other people have written, I can see that this really is part of my larger issue of feeling the need to appear perfect. (An anorexic who "has" to appear perfect? Yeah, unexpected. *snort*) It's a problem in most of my life, too. If I get flustered by something, and need to take a break, I deny it -- just out of habit, just learned reaction, "No, I'm fine, let's go." And I do it to my detriment.
It's also a strength, in a way, because I do things despite fear -- but many times I don't need to do those things, and only do them BECAUSE I'm frightened of them.
A few weeks ago, my T got a "scale" for her office. (She specializes in eating disorders.) This scale is decorated with sparkles and fringe -- and instead of numbers, it has ranges saying things like "Sexy" or "Fabulous" or "Stunning" -- all positive messages. I was just on my way out the door when she showed me, and started to get on it -- but couldn't. Didn't matter that it didn't show numbers, it was A Scale, and I started to freak out. My T, of course, said I didn't need to get on it, not to worry, but I *had* to. So I stood there for a minute or two -- long time, when you think about it -- and managed to get up there. That's the sort of thing that I do -- there's this imperative deeply implanted in me that I *must* conquer all fears. Which I think might have something to do with my T wanting me to get over my fear of not getting all As.
Besides -- face it, I'm a middle aged woman. There's a much better chance of me getting an A than the 18 year olds in class with me, because I am there voluntarily, I have a sense of how to study, I have life experience that helps me with much of the material, etc. And, as a middle aged woman, my grade really doesn't matter!
OK. That's enough from me right now... Thank you to everyone who's helped me with this.
Posted by pseudoname on February 24, 2006, at 13:21:49
In reply to Y'all are scaring me! (Only half joking), posted by Racer on February 24, 2006, at 12:34:48
> when I read your suggestion about pass/fail, I felt my stomach clench up -- too frightening.
Sorry, Racer! I think I can empathize with that desire.
My first T told me that obsessive perfectionists are responsible for nearly all the innovations and advances that everyone else in society enjoys. There's a great "Calvin & Hobbes" cartoon with the same point.
> Which I think might have something to do with my T wanting me to get over my fear of...
It still sounds to me like your therapist is trying to impose changes on you, at least in this area.
Posted by Racer on February 24, 2006, at 15:02:30
In reply to your goals vs her goals » Racer, posted by pseudoname on February 24, 2006, at 13:21:49
>
>
> > Which I think might have something to do with my T wanting me to get over my fear of...
>
> It still sounds to me like your therapist is trying to impose changes on you, at least in this area.No, I think I'm expressing it badly. Maybe I should say that this is one of the issues that we're working on together? Truly, I like my T, I think I'd doing well with her, and I'm satisfied that what she is working towards really is in my best interest. And on this matter? I know that this is a problem for me, it's not just part of who I am -- it's a damaging part of who I am. It's just that it is so much a part of me that, maladaptive as it is, it's frightening to me to think about giving it up.
Dunno -- maybe you still won't believe me. Guess I gotta work on getting over wanting to convince you, since I know it's true for me...
Posted by pseudoname on February 24, 2006, at 17:51:37
In reply to Re: your goals vs her goals » pseudoname, posted by Racer on February 24, 2006, at 15:02:30
It sounds like your relationship with your therapist is important and that trusting her to have your best interests in mind is part of that. I apologize if my flat-footed comments cast doubt on either of those ideas.
Posted by Racer on February 25, 2006, at 2:19:04
In reply to My apologies » Racer, posted by pseudoname on February 24, 2006, at 17:51:37
> It sounds like your relationship with your therapist is important and that trusting her to have your best interests in mind is part of that. I apologize if my flat-footed comments cast doubt on either of those ideas.
Thank you.
Yeah, I'm very happy to have a therapist who fits so well for me. You weren't here yet before I found her, I don't think, so you didn't get to read the problems I had in the past. But after the "therapy" I was subjected to over the past few years, I'm more relieved than I can tell you.
'Sides, I wasn't joking. I really did feel that need to convince you that my T was just fine, that anything that sounded wrong was my inability to communicate, etc... {hangs head} I'm, you know, a people pleaser...
And I ain't got no bad feelings over this, hope you don't either.
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