![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 25 to 49 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by Susan47 on January 5, 2006, at 0:07:19
In reply to Re: I did the work » Susan47, posted by JenStar on January 3, 2006, at 22:49:03
Totally, I know that and it just hurts and I don't know why it hurts, because of COURSE he doesn't want a relationship with me, never has and never would, and I understand that so clearly on an intellectual level, AND emotionally I know it and have always known and understood it. From the beginning, from the very first. Which is why him looking at me in a sexual way just felt so terrible, so bad, and wrong, and hurt from the first but I didn't know it. I felt so attached to him at that point already, he had absolutely no idea.
I mean, maybe he did, before I even told him all this obsessional stuff I had running through my head. Don't you know that I TOLD him exactly how I felt right off the bat, as soon as I knew how I felt, which is that loving sh*t patients get for their therapists, I told him exactly how it felt. But I can't erase what happened after that, no matter. I keep calling trying to make it better, trying to make him trust me again and trying to trust him back and I can't, nothing will get the trust back ever again and it HURTS god damn it because I just wanted him to see me as a special person, NOT another patient in there obsessing and putting her t*ts on show.
Which is how he saw me. And I want to stop him seeing that. I'm not his wife, I'm not his partner, I'm not even his friend. I was his patient and I wanted that and I moved out of that into a different role, I carried a sexual role as soon as I saw him look at me that way.
Don't you get it?
Doesn't ANYBODY get it?
Posted by muffled on January 5, 2006, at 9:23:04
In reply to Re: I did the work, posted by Susan47 on January 5, 2006, at 0:07:19
> Totally, I know that and it just hurts and I don't know why it hurts, because of COURSE he doesn't want a relationship with me, never has and never would, and I understand that so clearly on an intellectual level, AND emotionally I know it and have always known and understood it. From the beginning, from the very first. Which is why him looking at me in a sexual way just felt so terrible, so bad, and wrong, and hurt from the first but I didn't know it. I felt so attached to him at that point already, he had absolutely no idea.
***Hi, its Muffled here. I am trying to understand. What does 'looking at you in a sexual way' mean?
> I mean, maybe he did, before I even told him all this obsessional stuff I had running through my head. Don't you know that I TOLD him exactly how I felt right off the bat, as soon as I knew how I felt, which is that loving sh*t patients get for their therapists, I told him exactly how it felt. But I can't erase what happened after that,
**WHAT happened?. Sorry if I missed that part? But it seems rather important.
I keep calling trying to make it better, trying to make him trust me again and trying to trust him back and I can't, nothing will get the trust back ever again and it HURTS god damn it because I just wanted him to see me as a special person, NOT another patient in there obsessing and putting her t*ts on show.
**Yeah. People can sure hurt other people all right.
Did you literally show him your nakedness?> Which is how he saw me. And I want to stop him seeing that. I'm not his wife, I'm not his partner, I'm not even his friend. I was his patient and I wanted that and I moved out of that into a different role, I carried a sexual role as soon as I saw him look at me that way.
> Don't you get it?
> Doesn't ANYBODY get it?**I think we are trying very hard to get it. Mebbe you could just send him this last post of yours and call it a day. It seems to pretty much explain your position and what else can you do? Mebbe another T to try and help you thru this? Meds are ok too. They are helping me over a rough patch. I think. I hope.
Take care Susan 47. I'm sorry you are hurting. I have read your posts and you seem real nice.
Muffled>
Posted by one woman cine on January 5, 2006, at 11:17:41
In reply to I did the work, posted by Susan47 on January 3, 2006, at 20:37:11
Hi.
I can understand the pain you are going through with this therapy issue. It can be excruciating and at times, seemingly impossible.
You have stated that you want help and that you have done the work. I'm wondering what work have you done? I am assuming you are not in therapy, & I think - maybe, for a long time posters have been basically pleading with you to get into therapy to try to resolve this. If you are in therapy, than what is your therapist doing to help you overcome this?
If you aren't in therapy, why not? This is a really serious issue, for your own sake. This doesn't sound like it's abating for you or diminishing, in fact - it sounds as if it's escalating. Why continue to do this to yourself at this point if you have other options available to you? (ie, therapy, a review board etc. etc.)Maybe I'm not getting something & perhaps you could elucidate on the story a bit more. I'm not concerned about the therapists welfare, by the way, he can take care of himself. However, if you continue this route, you are going to garner unwanted attention - & jail will be decent compared to being incarcerated in a psych hospital for any illegal activities.
Posted by Damos on January 5, 2006, at 16:19:19
In reply to Re: I did the work, posted by Susan47 on January 5, 2006, at 0:07:19
Hey Suze :-)
I'm a man so that probably disqualifies me from any hope of understanding, but I'm trying, and if you keep talking about it I'll keep listening, just as long as it takes.
You're right you know, in this thread you've finally got to stuff you've been talking around since I've know you - thank you. Thank you for being brave (or desperate) enough to say what you have in this thread. And Susan it doesn't matter which it was because you've started to spit out the poison and that's all that matters.
Honestly I've got to agree with a lot of what Joslynn said. You know a fair bit about me and my ex, well Suze it took me nearly 16 years to realise that she never really saw ME, took parts of me I couldn't afford to lose. I was addicted and stupid and tragic and pathetic. I was a convenience item. Repeated rejection and humiliation only made my need to be *seen* by her even worse. The day I was able to admit this to myself was awful, but liberating. Please don't wait as long as me to free yourself. I can tell you that even though we are still friends and our relationship dynamic has changed significantly for the better there is still no recognition of the hurt that was done.
This man looked at you but didn't see YOU. He listened but didn't hear. He met but didn't relate. And his looking stole from you. Stole something important, something you couldn't afford to lose. Stole from you the chance to become the one thing you wanted, and made you feel and become things you didn't want. And you're angry as h*ll that the only thing he sees is what you most didn't want. You're angry as h*ll that you gave him your trust, your honesty and openness, your self, and he crushed it. You're angry that he let you build up this image of him, an image that is now contradictory and confusing and painful. You feel deeply betrayed. How am I doing? You're angry that accidentally or intentionally he encouraged or at the very least didn't discourage something that has led you to a lot of pain and instability in the way you see yourself. You're angry that when it got uncomfortable for him he just walked away like you were nothing. And this, this hurts most of all, because the thing you wanted most was to be something, someone. Because no-one, not even yourself had allowed you to be the very special someone you know you can be.
Sorry Suze, but this is really upsetting me so I need to take a break, but I'll be back okay. Thank you for letting me see just a little of you. Your friendship means a lot to me my dear sweet Susan, as long as you keep fighting for you you'll always have us in your corner.
(((((Susan)))))
Posted by Susan47 on January 5, 2006, at 19:57:26
In reply to Re: I did the work » Susan47, posted by muffled on January 5, 2006, at 9:23:04
I've been confused and confusing about this whole thing. I have moments when it's extremely clear, and others when it's all muddy, and no matter what I do, I can't get it clear. But then it swings from one extreme to the other, and I know my thinking about this unstable. I think, logically, that the thing is an emotional problem of my own, I can see through it, kind of, if you know what I mean. It doesn't feel right and nothing about it ever did. It was always messed up and mixed up, for me. I used to think sometimes that it was messed up and mixed up for the therapist as well. I think sometimes therapists have their own stuff and it gets mixed up with ours, sometimes. And I think that's what happened. And I think I have to get over it, if I want to live a real life, again. Because for two years or so, this has been the biggest part of my very painful existence, it's been effing hell. I swear a lot, I used to have SUCH a clean mouth, now I've heard too much and been alone with it too long, and it's oozing out of my pores. I know how to explain this but I don't want to give away so much detail about myself. I'm a real person. I've experienced way beyond what my mind has had the capability to deal with. I never knew I needed help with any of it, but I think I know it now. It's just becoming clear so slowly. And talking about it helps. This helps. My friends, what little they know of me, what more I'm telling them, is helping too. For the first time actually I'm loving my friends as the really wonderful people they are.
Okay. But I can answer your specific questions if you want to Babble me, I really can. I just don't want to say too much here. Because there's stuff I have to protect other people about, as well. I can't just go blindly charging off into the jungle anymore, without knowing the consequences, I mean, I used to really believe I was inconsequential. But I can't be, I can't hide from things even if I try, anymore. I do matter, just not in the way I want to, not always, in any case. It's just, a lifetime of mattering in the wrong way just got me so mixed up, then all the occupational hazards I had, and being so effed up, I had a lot of relationships with a lot of really bad people. Well, I don't know what a lot is, but to me it's more than a few, and bad can be quite bad. :( Not horrible, but quite bad. :(
Posted by Susan47 on January 5, 2006, at 20:11:06
In reply to Re: I did the work, posted by one woman cine on January 5, 2006, at 11:17:41
> Hi.
>
> I can understand the pain you are going through with this therapy issue. It can be excruciating and at times, seemingly impossible.
>
Well, it seemingly was impossible because it was so private. I'm not proud of my life, I would have hated to tell this therapist all my truths. I'm ashamed of quite a lot of them.
At the same time, I recognize there's reasons that are deep-seated as to why I am the way I am. I know I want help, I have gotten help last year over several visits with someone who practiced EMDR on me.> You have stated that you want help and that you have done the work. I'm wondering what work have you done? I am assuming you are not in therapy, & I think - maybe, for a long time posters have been basically pleading with you to get into therapy to try to resolve this.
I'm not fully employed. I can barely afford to pay my basic expenses, another thing I'm not proud of. Ashamed of. I've never been in this position. I've always been able to take more than adequate care of myself, financially. Those days seem so long gone and never possible again, right now.
I can't see someone unless it's free. Which it is, with a psychiatrist whom I see once every few months. But he pushes me for details about the relationship I created with my ex-T's machine ... it's embarrassing. Do you understand how embarrassing that could be, that you're this stupid idiot who can't stop obsessing over spilling her guts into a machine because she thinks she saw her T look at her in a sexual way (staring at my breasts as though he were, and I think I used this terminology once, a dog in heat in a skin that's too tight .. good picture, and accurate from my side of the room, and embarrassing as hell to him, if he thought he'd been caught at it. Which he WAS) Sex. It's one of my "issues", having been raped in the past, more than once, and had men be physically and emotionally violent with me. Only, I had tuned out to myself when I was, like, three. And I don't exactly know why, but I have images of why, sometimes. But I don't know how truly my mind keeps information. I really don't. And if this ex-T knows how I feel, he might even use that against me. In any case, I'm going to go back to a therapist who doesn't know me or my ex-T or maybe in a different place or I don't know what, yet. I really really really want to spill the whole story, without being ashamed of myself. I used to think the ex-T, because he was the only one who knew me through the ans. machine, that he would be safe to spill it with, but he really wasn't, he was just too sexual for me. Or too much that way, in my imagination. Because my mind might not be telling me the truth.
>
> If you aren't in therapy, why not? This is a really serious issue, for your own sake. This doesn't sound like it's abating for you or diminishing, in fact - it sounds as if it's escalating. Why continue to do this to yourself at this point if you have other options available to you? (ie, therapy, a review board etc. etc.)For a long long time, I just felt a loyalty to this T because I .. wanted, WANTED him so much, it was crazy. I knew it was crazy, it felt crazy and I acted crazy and he knew it, and I knew it, and it was just impossible to stop without hurting me on some important level, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I know he's referred to things in a way that's made him seem resentful of having to keep me on as a patient for as much as even the thirteen or so visits I had with him. Not much, is it? But it felt like too much, it was too intense every time, and I don't know why, I don't know why. You bet this is important to me. I don't know why I continue to do this to myself.. I used to think I was doing it to him, too, and he was hating me for it, and I had such bad nightmares I was in hell and I wasn't telling anybody; I had to live with this, I started it and I didn't/don't know how to end it without dying.
Yeah it's serious. I know that. But this helps, anyway.
This does help. It's making it a bit less painful, maybe.
Posted by muffled on January 5, 2006, at 20:51:16
In reply to Re: I did the work » muffled, posted by Susan47 on January 5, 2006, at 19:57:26
Aw Susan, you sound really mixed up.It sounds so hard. I'm glad your able to talk about it some and maybe that will help clarify it for you. I think a T would be good to bounce ideas off of. I have a female T and she is nice. And maybe some meds to cool things down a bit quicker and help you think. If you already on meds, you might need a change. I just restarted on some meds and its really helped me alot. I was getting really screwed up, but now I calmer. So meds have their place. If you want to babble mail me feel free. I don't want you to say anything you don't feel comfortable saying. Gosh, I'm not so clever, I wish I could say something smart for you. I care. You take care,
Muffled
Posted by one woman cine on January 6, 2006, at 13:27:21
In reply to Re: I did the work » one woman cine, posted by Susan47 on January 5, 2006, at 20:11:06
Wait, let me see if I have this right, you saw him for 13 sessions, maybe 3 months at once a week; and you've been calling him for over a year?
Hmmm. Whenever someone provokes a strong emotional response in me, I know it's usually not them - rather it's something about me that's resonates so deeply. It does sound to me as if you've been stalking him, by your description - & I can define stalking, if you like - but I think you'd agree with me.
I hear you describe alot of shame and remorse at times, but it doesn't negate your actions - especially if you are continuing to call.
I think first and foremost you can stop this behavior if you want to - to me, continuing to do so if a form of self-annhiliation and destructive. & now, it doesn't matter so much as to "why", but what matters is that is stops. & once again, this isn't for his sake, but for yours.
Tons of stuff has been written about this phenomena, I can give you some links if you'd be interested in reading.
I also understand, you feel doubly shamed (I don't know do you?) because you felt you loved him and wanted him so much. & maybe it was all over the top, and not handled right. The sad thing is, that wasn't addressed. I am sorry you are feeling so much pain, but I absolutely do not condone this behavior under any circumstance.
There is a book about a psychiatrist who was stalked called, "I know you really love me", by D. Orion, MD. (& no, I won't link it to Amazon for privacy reasons. I don't need it googled and linked to this discussion.)
I do agree it is a vicious cycle and I hope you can feel better about this soon.
Posted by Susan47 on January 8, 2006, at 16:17:04
In reply to Re: I did the work, posted by one woman cine on January 6, 2006, at 13:27:21
> Wait, let me see if I have this right, you saw him for 13 sessions, maybe 3 months at once a week; and you've been calling him for over a year?
>
> Hmmm. Whenever someone provokes a strong emotional response in me, I know it's usually not them - rather it's something about me that's resonates so deeply. It does sound to me as if you've been stalking him, by your description - & I can define stalking, if you like - but I think you'd agree with me.
>
That is an extremely unhelpful comment to have made.
Labelling this thing as "stalking" is unkind and not useful right now; it's a direct result of what our litigious society is all about and it's hurtful and gets a lot of people into unnecessary trouble. This therapist had many many ways and means available to him so that this would not have become what it has. He didn't use them. I was in a seriously deranged emotional state that prevented me from being able to manage myself in any other way, at the time. Right now, I'm clearer-headed. But I waver. Because this was a Huge emotional issue for me.. and I still believe and no matter what silly thing this therapist is telling himself or someone else that's a lie .. and I believe that, as well. Because none of his actions with me in the last year or so would indicate any understanding of the reality of my situation, and what occurred in the therapy room. Therapy. Hah. I wonder if he even calls himself that, in his own mind. Psychologist. What does a psychologist do, exactly? Other than a proven method like EMDR, what is their usefulness and what is the pay-off for the patient? We know what it is for the doctor.> I hear you describe alot of shame and remorse at times, but it doesn't negate your actions - especially if you are continuing to call.
>
I don't feel ashamed and remorseful when I'm kind to myself. I've spent far too much of my life, being unkind to myself. My oh my, you sound as judgemental about me as I did. Once. But not anymore. Not right now, in any case. Because right now, I feel really strong. I know the reasoning .. more and more, every day. And I should be thanking this a** because he's helped me more by being just himself, than anything he ever could have done otherwise. Only, he should have done it sooner. I wish I had a tape of every call I ever made, because I know he's always done what I asked him to, but waited far too long to do it. Trying his own non-methods, thinking it through (or not!!) first, thinking he could out-smart what I already knew about myself, and the situation. Because HE was in denial .. it's really a mess. but I refuse any more to think that I'm wrong. I'm not wrong. I'm not wrong about this.. but maybe this is my own denial. You see, you see if you're hard on yourself how you can twist your own thinking????> I think first and foremost you can stop this behavior if you want to - to me, continuing to do so if a form of self-annhiliation and destructive. & now, it doesn't matter so much as to "why", but what matters is that is stops. & once again, this isn't for his sake, but for yours.
>
You betcha it's self-annihilating and destructive. And I don't even care right now, how destructive it was to anyone else, because it's been MOST destructive to my own self, and I didn't even allow my empathy for this therapist to come between myself and my urge to self-destruct.
> Tons of stuff has been written about this phenomena, I can give you some links if you'd be interested in reading.
>
What's the phenomena, exactly, and post the links please. I might be interested enough to actually go there and read a bit ..> I also understand, you feel doubly shamed (I don't know do you?) because you felt you loved him and wanted him so much. & maybe it was all over the top, and not handled right. The sad thing is, that wasn't addressed. I am sorry you are feeling so much pain, but I absolutely do not condone this behavior under any circumstance.
I think that sounds sarcastic, about me feeling ashamed, because you think I SHOULD feel ashamed. Today, I'm strong and no, I'm not ... sad because so many people would be so judgemental about what I've said into this answering machine ... but that's all. Just really sad and a bit embarrassed for being the canary... the one who acted out what was wrong in the relationship (the T's and mine) ... I don't care whether you condone "this behaviour under any circumstance" ... if you're referring to mine .. I wonder what someone else might say about the therapist's behaviour ... which I suppose, was okay?
>
> There is a book about a psychiatrist who was stalked called, "I know you really love me", by D. Orion, MD. (& no, I won't link it to Amazon for privacy reasons. I don't need it googled and linked to this discussion.)
>
I think that's really gross, to make a book about that sort of thing .. but it's important, people have to know.. the problem is, the intimate knowledge of an extreme case of anything will traumatize some people into believing it true of a lot of things that AREN'T .. I worked on a particularly gruesome murder case once, and the details surrounding that affected the rest of my LIFE for the next twenty years, only now am I beginning to come out of that ... the problem with psychological problems, (hmm, I don't know how better to explain this) is that sometimes the mind can become really unstable when people are emotionally hurt, and professionals who handly things improperly or don't know enough about themselves or their own issues to get help at the appropriate time when such is required .. well, then it suddenly becomes a threat for everyone. It's tough. It's really tough. And it puts the "patient" in every case, into a bad light. There's a ton of stuff written about psychologists who cross boundaries and hurt patients, too ... but that doesn't mean that every psychologist who is inappropriate with a patient, will have an affair with them .. a look won't look to an affair, just like a phone call to an answering machine won't lead to something more. We should all know that, and yet so many people are addicted to sensationalism and don't know it ... don't know it ... it's so important to know yourself.
> I do agree it is a vicious cycle and I hope you can feel better about this soon.I do, and thank you.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2006, at 21:55:03
In reply to Re: I did the work » one woman cine, posted by Susan47 on January 8, 2006, at 16:17:04
> > It does sound to me as if you've been stalking him
> >
> Labelling this thing as "stalking" is unkind and not useful right now> > I am sorry you are feeling so much pain, but I absolutely do not condone this behavior under any circumstance.
>
> I don't care whether you condone "this behaviour under any circumstance"I think Susan's right, sorry I let the above go before. Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. It tends to be more constructive if you put things in terms of what the other person might do better rather than what they did "wrong".
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by one woman cine on January 9, 2006, at 6:30:34
In reply to Re: please be civil » one woman cine, posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2006, at 21:55:03
My apologies if that was uncivil. However, I was responding to the statement Susan made earlier in this thread which was "If I go to jail, will people visit me?". This statement to me means she might do something that has far reaching consequences. I would appreciate if Susan could explain the meaning of the statement to me, if I am off base.
As I have stated previously, if the therapy fails, for whatever reason, it is 100% the therapists "fault".
But it is alarming to me to have someone imply they might do something serious that they know will have consequences. & that brings up the question of responsibility in a community.
Posted by Susan47 on January 9, 2006, at 22:48:42
In reply to Re: please be civil --- If I go to jail....., posted by one woman cine on January 9, 2006, at 6:30:34
I didn't post "If I go to jail" .. in reference to anything I'm going to do. It was more a situation of this therapist thinking he's going to put the screws to me for making phone calls to his answering machine.
I don't know what the law would do with calls like mine. Does the content matter, or is it quantity?
Because if it's quantity, he might have a case. I mean, he's written to me asking me not to call. Not understanding that I couldn't stop myself even though I really did want to, on one level, definitely I wanted to stop. On another, I had to keep going or I felt I would die, disappear, if all contact with him was cut off.
That is why I believe psychological issues are so difficult ... it's like, do you plead insanity when you know you've been insane? How does a compassionate therapist deal with things like this, how does a ruthless one do it, do they look the same? At what point does the therapist him/herself lose touch with reality, with what's really going on, and enter a mode of thinking which turns out to be destructive and malicious?
This therapist frightens me, it's that simple.
And some days are better than others, but mostly now, they're better, because I feel relieved to have gotten my feelings out into the open. Even if it is with a bunch of people I don't know, who may or may not understand. I don't have to feel ashamed. I just wanted to survive and be loved. I don't know how understandable that is to every therapist who feels his patient tried to seduce him .. because I think that's what this therapist saw me as. Which is so effing Hurtful. Just hurtful, really. It makes the stuff I really did feel for him so.. I don't know. Subversive. And it wasn't.. it was real. The good feelings were all real and only became seductive when I saw he was receptive... it's terrible because when they kicked in I also became extremely paranoid of him, and his capacity to hurt me increased tenfold.
I wish therapists knew how important it is to take care of themselves, and to know themselves and to not be afraid of what's in their own heads... a bit like I'm afraid of what's in mine sometimes, when I think he might tear me apart like a shark.
Posted by muffled on January 9, 2006, at 23:09:11
In reply to Re: please be civil --- If I go to jail....., posted by one woman cine on January 9, 2006, at 6:30:34
Posted by jammerlich on January 10, 2006, at 11:47:44
In reply to Re: please be civil --- If I go to jail..... » one woman cine, posted by Susan47 on January 9, 2006, at 22:48:42
I wanted to comment from a legal perspective because it seems to be a concern for you. I'm going to keep it pretty general because laws can vary from state to state. But basically, you need to look into your state's stalking and harassment laws. Generally for stalking, the alleged stalker's intent really doesn't matter. What does matter is how the other party feels. If that other party feels threatened and a judge and/or jury determines that the, so called, "reasonable person" would also feel threatened, then the alleged stalker becomes a stalker in the legal sense. Typically the content of the phone calls would be most important here, but, in extreme cases, I would think that a large number of calls could result in feelings of being threatened. As for harassment, quantity is a big, big concern and feelings of being threatened don't matter at all. In some states, once a person is told to stop (by the person being harassed), even one more phone call can be considered harassment.
Susan, if I were you, I would be extremely concerned, particularly about harassment, because he asked asked you, in writing, to stop. I know it isn't easy, but I would suggest you do anything you can to stop yourself. Sometimes a phone company will block certain numbers so they can't be dialed. See if they can do this for you and give them every number you know of for him so that even if you try to dial, they won't go through. If they can't do that, then consider having your phone at home completely shut off. That way you'd have to leave the house to call - maybe that would be a deterrent for you. Those things may sound drastic to you, but this is a serious situation with real, legal consequences.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 10, 2006, at 22:45:56
In reply to Re: please be civil --- If I go to jail..... » Susan47, posted by jammerlich on January 10, 2006, at 11:47:44
Susan,
I know you're really struggling with this and that it's very painful for you.I don't have any answers. Just hugs if it helps.
(((((Susan)))))
gg
Posted by Damos on January 10, 2006, at 23:11:35
In reply to Re: please be civil --- If I go to jail....., posted by gardenergirl on January 10, 2006, at 22:45:56
> Susan,
> I know you're really struggling with this and that it's very painful for you.
>
> I don't have any answers. Just hugs if it helps.
>
> (((((Susan)))))
>
> ggSame here Susan.
(((((Susan)))))
Posted by Alex Elliott on January 11, 2006, at 8:38:50
In reply to I did the work, posted by Susan47 on January 3, 2006, at 20:37:11
Hi Susan,
I'm a bit late to the thread and new to the board, but I've been reading your story with great interest. My heart goes out to you. I'm thinking of you with great compassion.
I've just lived through something very similar. I was also obsessed with a T and I decided to terminate to get away from him. I'd written him hundreds of letters and, at the height of my obsession, I'd often write him 7 times a day. One letter would negate or clarify the next. I was in a kind of tightening spiral. It was a really dark period.
Something that helped me was to think in terms of CBT and nueral pathways in the brain. --That I was strengthening my obsession every time I wrote him a letter. I decided to practice *not writing*.
Another thing that helped was to look at the situation with an eye to my own dark side. My hunger for his attention was bottomless and therefore quite terrible! I spent time analyzing it and thinking about the transference angle + things the T did "wrong," --But those meanderings can go on forever (especially if you're obsessive!). I returned to the idea of an unchecked appetite. An insatiable hunger. A hunger that would always bring me pain. I realized that I had to own that hunger. It came from me. It was mine to work with. To learn to deal with. The addiction analogy was helpful.
The obsession isn't over -- I still have many fantasies of him daily, but I'm feeling better. I write the fantasies down. I actually say out loud, "you'll never see him again." I go to the gym and get on the treadmill until my legs are numb. I've thrown myself into work. At New Year's, I thought forward to 2007 and wondered how I'll feel about my ex-T in one year. I expect (and hope) that he'll be a much fainter impression on my brain.
Good Luck, Susan. I wish you relief and some peace. I think that, with work and time, you can get over this.
Yours,
AE
Posted by Susan47 on January 11, 2006, at 14:35:36
In reply to Re: please be civil --- If I go to jail..... » Susan47, posted by jammerlich on January 10, 2006, at 11:47:44
> I wanted to comment from a legal perspective because it seems to be a concern for you. I'm going to keep it pretty general because laws can vary from state to state. But basically, you need to look into your state's stalking and harassment laws. Generally for stalking, the alleged stalker's intent really doesn't matter. What does matter is how the other party feels. If that other party feels threatened and a judge and/or jury determines that the, so called, "reasonable person" would also feel threatened, then the alleged stalker becomes a stalker in the legal sense. Typically the content of the phone calls would be most important here, but, in extreme cases, I would think that a large number of calls could result in feelings of being threatened. As for harassment, quantity is a big, big concern and feelings of being threatened don't matter at all. In some states, once a person is told to stop (by the person being harassed), even one more phone call can be considered harassment.
>
That would be so tough for a person who's in psychic distress. I mean, especially considering the nature of a therapeutic relationship .. maybe that's why psychologists here mostly don't refer to themselves as therapists. IN any case, thanks for your concerns, all of them. The ball hasn't dropped yet, so I'm not expecting it to. If it does, I would feel, not enraged, as I had previously, but disappointed. And not even really disappointed, just .. well, what can you expect, that would be about it. And I'd do whatever I had to to defend myself. And I honestly believe it would be good enough.
> Susan, if I were you, I would be extremely concerned, particularly about harassment, because he asked asked you, in writing, to stop. I know it isn't easy, but I would suggest you do anything you can to stop yourself. Sometimes a phone company will block certain numbers so they can't be dialed. See if they can do this for you and give them every number you know of for him so that even if you try to dial, they won't go through. If they can't do that, then consider having your phone at home completely shut off. That way you'd have to leave the house to call - maybe that would be a deterrent for you. Those things may sound drastic to you, but this is a serious situation with real, legal consequences.
Oh, well. There's a lot of things in life worse than "legal consequences"... especially since I've STOPPED CALLING (yes, three and a half dozen cheers for ME).
Posted by Susan47 on January 11, 2006, at 14:37:13
In reply to Re: please be civil --- If I go to jail....., posted by gardenergirl on January 10, 2006, at 22:45:56
> Susan,
> I know you're really struggling with this and that it's very painful for you.
>
> I don't have any answers. Just hugs if it helps.
>
> (((((Susan)))))
>
> gg
Wow, gg, thanks, and that was a really nice, friendly hug and I appreciate it!
Posted by Susan47 on January 11, 2006, at 14:50:07
In reply to Re: I did the work, posted by Alex Elliott on January 11, 2006, at 8:38:50
I just made it awhile ago.. maybe, fifteen minutes? Anyway I said thank you for letting me walk this painful road (I'm paraphrasing, exact words are tough to remember unless you really focus in, and I can't do that, all the time.. I admire people who can..) and not prosecuting me. And I think I said something about how people always will tell you what they need from you... even when they know how much pain it'll cause, sometimes it just is worth the pain, in the end. I hope he got the message. I hope I remember never to call ever again. I might need your guys' help, though.
Posted by Susan47 on January 11, 2006, at 15:12:51
In reply to Re: I did the work, posted by Alex Elliott on January 11, 2006, at 8:38:50
> Hi Susan,
>
> I'm a bit late to the thread and new to the board, but I've been reading your story with great interest. My heart goes out to you. I'm thinking of you with great compassion.
>
> I've just lived through something very similar. I was also obsessed with a T and I decided to terminate to get away from him. I'd written him hundreds of letters and, at the height of my obsession, I'd often write him 7 times a day. One letter would negate or clarify the next. I was in a kind of tightening spiral. It was a really dark period.
>
Yeah, and it's best never to leave a trail of what you wrote either. Because all that shite is just too painful to read, until you're a long emotional distance from it.
> Something that helped me was to think in terms of CBT and nueral pathways in the brain. --That I was strengthening my obsession every time I wrote him a letter. I decided to practice *not writing*.
>
I tried to practice *not calling*, but every single time, if it was a matter of seconds, minutes, hours and, lately, days .. even weeks, when I was in India.. but it was different there, because I was a Lifetime away from him then, and that was okay, it was all right. I made it out alive, I totally made it, even better than before, and then finally, I was able to start working on the concept that yes, I would survive. Because before that the calls were keeping me alive. If he'd been able to cut me off, I would've completely panicked, devastated I think even to the point of having to be hospitalized, I don't know thank god the trip to India came up. It was, like, I think two YEARS of hell, pure and gross agony which I walked through pretty much alone, I think.
> Another thing that helped was to look at the situation with an eye to my own dark side. My hunger for his attention was bottomless and therefore quite terrible! I spent time analyzing it and thinking about the transference angle + things the T did "wrong," --But those meanderings can go on forever (especially if you're obsessive!).
Oh yes, I SO know what you're talking about. I was extremely obsessive with my thoughts for many years, since I was a teen really ... it always felt like my father would be able to kill me, that he would, and I think I just worried myself into a state of eternal agony over that, which drove the obsessive thinking, then behaving ... I was really sick, but it isn't till you're better that you can see that, which is really sad, because right now I wonder how much the "better" is going to last .. you see? I'm starting to think obsessively, right now.
It's a matter of constant vigilance. I'm going to go take a pnt 200 right now.
>
> The obsession isn't over -- I still have many fantasies of him daily, but I'm feeling better.I'm feeling fabulous, I only fantasize about the next time I'll ever, if I ever do, see him. That's all. I think that must still be an awful worry for me. Ew, just the idea of seeing myself reflected badly in the eyes of somebody I think so kindly of, it's just a need I have to think kindly of him. I like to think he's a nice person, a worthy friend to good people and not someone who is all that AND feels sick at the sight or thought of broken me. Which I was, and could still be I guess, I mean, I just have to take care of my heart and my mind and my soul from now on, and my physical body, I can't slide ever again, it's too hurtful and painful and everything. This time the trip was worth it for me, hurtful to many others, and if it ever happened again though, I don't know how worth it it would be, it wouldn't be worth repeating. I'm where I want to be and my family is all the stronger for it and so am I and it feels good, but to be disrespected and thought of unkindly would be unbearably painful. I can't afford to "hate" myself, not ever, not again.. thanks AE, I really hope you get through this being stable too.
Just post here if it helps, really and truly.
Posted by Susan47 on January 12, 2006, at 11:06:05
In reply to Made my last call., posted by Susan47 on January 11, 2006, at 14:50:07
Oh, that was bad. Very bad. Because I think honestly my phone is being bugged. Yes, all the signs are there. But maybe I'm being paranoid. Maybe not. Most likely, not. Most likely, there is an investigation being performed on .. me. And I know, I asked for it, somewhere in the back of my being, I am completely deranged and ready to .. hit the road. Because I think maybe I'm really sick. Really. I phoned three more times this morning to listen to the machine, just to make that connection, and bang after the third time, during which my music was playing madly ... I got The Call. The "Is Becky there?" call .. oh, sorry, wrong number ... who placed the call? Am I being paranoid? Perhaps this is the first Babbler to .. would I be the first .. be in serious trouble. Life-changing, serious trouble. Because she's so effed up no one can deal with it. But she's not, really. And nobody really knows that, either. See, the sign of complete insanity is when.. you can't tell the difference, anymore. :( I wonder how many people would like to try a case like mine.. I mean, really.
Posted by Dinah on January 12, 2006, at 12:35:40
In reply to Re: Made my last call., posted by Susan47 on January 12, 2006, at 11:06:05
Did you tell any of this to your pdoc? Because there are medications that work as anti-obsessives. You really need to talk to him about it.
Posted by one woman cine on January 12, 2006, at 13:50:38
In reply to Re: Made my last call., posted by Susan47 on January 12, 2006, at 11:06:05
I'm confused. Yesterday you said you made your last call. & then later, you said, you made 3 more calls...
"Oh, well. There's a lot of things in life worse than "legal consequences"... especially since I've STOPPED CALLING (yes, three and a half dozen cheers for ME). "
When you said this, it sounded to me like you thought the legal conseequences weren't so bad & that you had stopped calling. Is this no longer true? I'm very concerned about this & I think you really need to speak to your pdoc. You said you went/were going to see him. Did you speak to him about this?
I'm also confused because you have asked for help & am wondering how best I or any other poster could help at this point. I feel as if the outcome is already out of anyone's hands.....
Posted by Susan47 on January 13, 2006, at 0:46:55
In reply to Re: Made my last call....I've STOPPED CALLING » Susan47, posted by one woman cine on January 12, 2006, at 13:50:38
The type of call where I say something. Usually my calls are me listening to the voice on the other end, which is the answering machine, which isn't even his voice, hasn't been for a long time now ... and I listen, and I breathe, and I remember there was once a connection, something that was wonderful and alive for me, and I'm really not dead, not right now, not at this moment ... my obsession was such that he was a He, and He was Everything to me, and He became an answering machine when he transcended some space in my head, a look that shouldn't have been and maybe even according to him, wasn't ... so my last call was meant to be the last call. Really. It was the next day the next morning, even, that I made three more calls ... I think .. my memory isn't very clear about anything right now ... it was the next day, and they were listening calls only, not the kind of a call where I say anything, to be heard. To be heard is not to be. Not properly. I understand that this person or these people will never properly understand, I'm the only one who hears me. Is it like that for everyone?
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