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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Voce on December 21, 2005, at 16:26:18
Going to see my former female T triggered something....old pain, old grief. She sees my ex male T once in awhile and I'm just so insanely jealous of that. She can shrug it off like no big deal, but I haven't seen him in 19 months, so it IS a big deal to me. She asked me if I still think about him a lot, and I said, "Every day. I think about him every day." She seemed to understand and respect that. The question is, what now?
I told her that I wish I could sit down with him now and talk about what went wrong in my termination. I have a lot more perspective now, and I feel as though I know where my illness/transference ends and reality begins. I feel like I could call him now on some mistakes he made, but I'm not angry, that's the thing.
My female T said, "He's not that far away. Have you ever called him?" I said no, I don't think he'd want me too. She said she didn't know about that, but I know that the answer I got from him, at least a year ago, was a firm "no." It's so maddening to know he's so close, but I can't see him, I can't talk to him.
She asked me if I went to see him, if it would stir up my grief again, or give me peace and closure. I didn't tell her that it hurts ALL the time, one way or another. Just sometimes it's worse.
I was in so much pain BEFORE I went to therapy. My health was eroding, and I just couldn't get out of bed, or stop crying. But after therapy, in the wake of termination and having him ripped away so completely--I'm trying to decide what was worse.
At least this way the pain is confined to one area. Instead of grieving for everything, all the time, I'm only grieving for him and what he represented. He represented my father, yes, he certainly served as a stand-in. But being with him was a time when I was supremely understood. He was tangled in my thoughts WITH me. I didn't have to worry about hurting him or meeting his needs or taking care of his feelings. He was constantly compassionate, unflappable, tuned in, concerned and passionate about the work we did together.
I am better now. I can look people in the eye, I am more secure in my body and with myself as a sexual being. I understand that not all men will hurt me or use me and then throw me away. My T saved my marriage before it began.
So it wouldn't have mattered what I would've done, whether I had gone to therapy or not. I'm still going to hurt. Only now, what I am hurting for is no longer nameless. It has a face and a voice.
What if it never goes away? What if I miss him every day for the rest of my life? What if I never see him again? What if I never stop grieving?
Anyone want to drink wine with me tonight until I can't even talk?
Posted by jammerlich on December 21, 2005, at 17:20:13
In reply to Sigh, posted by Voce on December 21, 2005, at 16:26:18
(((((Voce)))))
I wish I had some words of comfort for you, but I don't know what to say. I'm right in the trenches with you and so often I wonder if it will EVER get better. Couldn't I just wake up for ONE day and not think about ex-T?
I completely get what you said about being supremely understood. For me, it was the first time I ever felt that way and it doesn't seem fair that they can give that to us and then unilaterally rip it away. I think I wish I never knew what it felt like to be so seen because now I feel like I'm floundering around in the world, missing a major body part or something.
I'll definitely drink with you tonight. But would it be okay if I went with tequila shots? I think they'd get me to oblivion faster and with far less energy than it takes to lift a wine glass over and over again. Better yet, maybe someone could set me up with an IV?? Why not put it straight into the bloodstream? Normally I don't like needles, but in this case I think it'd be worth it.
Posted by fairywings on December 21, 2005, at 18:56:53
In reply to Sigh, posted by Voce on December 21, 2005, at 16:26:18
Hi (((Voce)))
Would it help if you wrote you exT a letter, and spelled out everything he did wrong, everything he did to hurt you, and how you feel now? Then give a copy of it to your current T? Maybe then she can understand the extent of your pain, how he hurt you, and why it pain lingers. Maybe then he can see how badly he screwed up with you.
Writing always helps me, but I know it's not for everyone. I hope you'll think about it though, you write so clearly and so well, I would guess you could make it very plain to both of them exactly what you want to express.
fairywings
Posted by Voce on December 22, 2005, at 0:39:05
In reply to Re: Sigh, posted by fairywings on December 21, 2005, at 18:56:53
I do write a lot. I wrote even more when I was in therapy. It's my way of processing feelings, next to talking about them.
<Then give a copy of it to your current T? Maybe then she can understand the extent of your pain, how he hurt you, and why it pain lingers. Maybe then he can see how badly he screwed up with you.>I have written him several long letters in the past. I got only one thoughtful response to a certain one I wrote. The closest thing to an apology was him admitting that "human judgement is imperfect." Nice use of the passive voice...
It wasn't the therapy he screwed up, it was the termination. I think he knows that he screwed up. My current T (who I'm really not seeing right now, long story) has point blank told him this (she used to be his supervisor so she can say things like that to him).
Nothing will do except his physical presence. I want to see his face, hear his voice, see his expressions and reactions to what I say. I want to feel close to him like I used to, tucked away in a safe place close to his heart.
That is unbelieveable corny, but I can't think of any other way to say it.
Posted by orchid on December 22, 2005, at 2:32:54
In reply to Sigh, posted by Voce on December 21, 2005, at 16:26:18
I can understand how it must have triggered everything back again.
I do hope that your T can talk to you and help you get full closure. It will definitely help immensely for you to move past this.
But he probably will not do it, if he hasn't done it so far. Like it or not, the fact is that somehow he lacks in this, in giving you full closure - for whatever reason. You would probably never get him to admit it or apologize or help you move ahead.
One thing perhaps that you can do by yourself, is to accept in your mind, that this will always remain a little puzzling for you, and that you perhaps will never get full closure on this from your ex T. Accepting that it will never be fully closed, sometimes strangely brings closure. Like how we come to accept it when a person dies suddenly. Try to leave it to God and move on.
Since your T won't help you through it, this seems to be the only possible option to me. Also maybe you can turn him into a normal human being with lots of faults, you might find it easier to move on.
Another thing that would help is to try to substitute other men for him. Try to talk to different men, and you might come to understand that everyone is great in their own way, and that might help you move past this.
But I do agree, that the best thing to happen would be for your T to pick up enough strength and talk to you openly and perhaps admit his mistakes, or atleast walk you through over his thoughts, so that you will gain closure. But it takes a strong person with lot of openness and integrity and good will to be able to do that.
((Voce))
Posted by daisym on December 22, 2005, at 2:41:36
In reply to Re: Sigh » fairywings, posted by Voce on December 22, 2005, at 0:39:05
Mourning takes a long time. I think the deeper the feelings, the longer it takes. Hurts like this heal so slowly and while it isn't a mortal wound, it is still a deep one and will most likely always be a sensitive spot that will ache when touched.
So what to do? I think you have to fill up that empty space with other things, love for your new husband (soon!) and perhaps children later on. You work, you play and you live life. And you allow yourself to be sad for what you don't have and what you are missing. And sometimes you just cry for those old feelings.
Have you read "Necessary Losses"? Someone here (ShortE?) recommended it. I bought it and it has really helped me understand that each stage in life has its own set of gains and losses. Each loss hurts but eventually the gains will offset this hurt. You will heal -- but you may always love this man. Accepting that, mourning for what you can't have, is the only way through this.
And I know none of this helps how you feel right now. I don't think there is anything as painful as unrequited and unresolved feelings of love. So when the longings are especially powerful I think you need to be especially gentle with yourself. Allow your fiance to take care of you, to hold you and soothe you. It is OK to do that, even if he isn't who you want sometimes. It will help you not feel so alone.
And keep writing and posting about this. It might help to get your feelings out. We are here for you.
Hugs from me,
Daisy
Posted by fairywings on December 22, 2005, at 9:31:39
In reply to Re: Sigh » fairywings, posted by Voce on December 22, 2005, at 0:39:05
(((Voce)))
I'm sorry it's been so painful. I think daisy had such incredible words of wisdom. I hope they offer some comfort. Wish I knew a way to make the pain go away, but I know anything I can offer just won't do that.
fw
Posted by Dinah on December 22, 2005, at 10:29:13
In reply to Re: Sigh » Voce, posted by jammerlich on December 21, 2005, at 17:20:13
> I completely get what you said about being supremely understood. For me, it was the first time I ever felt that way and it doesn't seem fair that they can give that to us and then unilaterally rip it away. I think I wish I never knew what it felt like to be so seen because now I feel like I'm floundering around in the world, missing a major body part or something.
It's not fair at all. For the first time in my life I felt safe and not alone. And that was just snatched away. And not only do I not feel safe now, but I see the past ten years as an illusion. Maybe it *is* better never to know what it felt like.
Posted by annierose on December 22, 2005, at 12:23:01
In reply to Re: Sigh, posted by Dinah on December 22, 2005, at 10:29:13
This sentiment is so sad you guys. I hope it's not an illusion. But I do think T's keep themselves protected emotionally. They have to. They can't travel down that road with us, more as an interested observer trying to help us along the right path.
I wish you both felt safe. I know that feeling of unsettled stuff getting in the way of therapy.
Posted by Tamar on December 22, 2005, at 19:24:21
In reply to Re: Sigh » fairywings, posted by Voce on December 22, 2005, at 0:39:05
> Nothing will do except his physical presence. I want to see his face, hear his voice, see his expressions and reactions to what I say. I want to feel close to him like I used to, tucked away in a safe place close to his heart.
(((((Voce)))))
It’s hard to learn to believe it, but you will *always* be in a safe place close to his heart. Maybe he can’t tell you how special you are. And maybe he won’t ever admit it out loud. But you must have been special to him. How could you not be? You’re a very special person. And don’t forget, he came to your concert. Of course he cares about you; even if he can’t tell you how much.
> That is unbelieveable corny, but I can't think of any other way to say it.
The thing about corny is… corny is honest. And honestly I am certain that he hasn’t forgotten you.
Posted by Voce on December 23, 2005, at 1:27:24
In reply to Re: Sigh » Voce, posted by jammerlich on December 21, 2005, at 17:20:13
<and it doesn't seem fair that they can give that to us and then unilaterally rip it away. I think I wish I never knew what it felt like to be so seen because now I feel like I'm floundering around in the world, missing a major body part or something.>
This reasonates with me so much. Especially the part about being really *seen* for everything that you are. If I had never experienced it, I never would crave it like I crave it now.
Posted by Voce on December 23, 2005, at 1:28:12
In reply to Re: Sigh, posted by Voce on December 23, 2005, at 1:27:24
Posted by Voce on December 24, 2005, at 2:10:48
In reply to Re: Sigh » Voce, posted by daisym on December 22, 2005, at 2:41:36
You always say such wonderful things, Daisy.
He told me it was going to be hard. He told me that it was okay and normal to miss him, and that he would miss me too. All of that still applies, even though it was so long ago.
Grieving is such hard work.
Thanks for the hugs.
Posted by Voce on December 24, 2005, at 2:11:53
In reply to Re: Sigh, posted by Dinah on December 22, 2005, at 10:29:13
I am sorry Dinah. How terrible to have your T in front of you and not be able to always have the connection.
I hate how things change. I hate that we are often helpless in the wake of change.
Posted by Voce on December 24, 2005, at 2:17:13
In reply to Re: Sigh » Voce, posted by orchid on December 22, 2005, at 2:32:54
Ah, Orchid, you are so reasonable! :-/
<Accepting that it will never be fully closed, sometimes strangely brings closure. Like how we come to accept it when a person dies suddenly. Try to leave it to God and move on.>Oh that is the right thing to do, I know. I honestly do not always believe that God cares much. But what else is there to be done...
<Another thing that would help is to try to substitute other men for him. Try to talk to different men, and you might come to understand that everyone is great in their own way, and that might help you move past this.>
I have never met another man like him. Chances are I never will. He is gone, but I still do look for him in other people. I don't know if that helps me or not.
<But I do agree, that the best thing to happen would be for your T to pick up enough strength and talk to you openly and perhaps admit his mistakes, or at least walk you through over his thoughts, so that you will gain closure. But it takes a strong person with lot of openness and integrity and good will to be able to do that.>
If I were to meet him again, I fear it would only stir up the pain more. At any rate, I don't think he wants to meet with me. That's one sleeping giant I'll let be, at least right now.
Voce
This is the end of the thread.
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