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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 21:36:26
In yesterday's session. I wonder why some of the deepest sessions have Babble inspiration?
Maybe it's easier to discuss tough topics by bringing them up in third person then slipping into the personal aspect.
At any rate, the main thrust of the session was about clients wanting to feel special to their therapists, about me wanting to feel special to him. He actually brought up that exact topic from some things I had said. He said that most clients want to feel special to their therapists, and that in some ways of course they are. But in other ways they aren't.
At which point I interrupted him and told him I didn't think I'd like where this was leading. And I got soooo anxious of what he was about to say, yet so sure that it was probably something I needed to hear, that I deliberately left the room, so to speak. The emotional self that usually attends therapy focused on going up and up and up into the rational self that doesn't think much of therapy, and wouldn't be hurt by what he was about to say.
After a bit of small talk, he asked why I had left, so to speak, and if it had had anything to do with talking about wanting to be special. He said something fairly innocuous about all clients having to make appointments, and having to pay, and technical details like that. Things that had nothing to do with feeling special really, and that I don't think were what he was about to say when he saw me get upset and zone out.
Welllll....
Rational me said a lot of things that emotional me never ever would say (at least not in the same way), and overdisclosed all sorts of things along the lines of what we've been talking about lately on Babble.
I told him how important he was to me, rather graphically. I never wanted to say that quite so bluntly. I've said it many times of course, but it felt different and more shameful coming from my rational side.
I asked if he knew that little girls flirted with their Daddies, and when he said he didn't really because he had a step-daughter, I explained it with the probable evolutionary reasons. Then told him that I flirt with him that way all the time, in an attempt to gain positive regard and emotional investment, just like a little girl does with her Daddy. I never really wanted him to know that. At least not using the word "flirt". Thank God he clearly understood perfectly that I didn't mean man/woman or sexual flirting. And that I thought it was a very bad thing, because I didn't allow myself to get angry with him or show him my bad side. He thought the two things were different. That it was ok to flirt like a little girl does with her Daddy, but then it was ok to get mad and yell and know that the relationship could stand it.
He did seem a bit disconcerted.
Then he said he'd been eager for a chance to ask why I constantly put him down when talking to myself. And I answered him honestly that it was a safety issue. I was afraid he'd hurt me and that I constantly wanted to remind myself of all the reasons I shouldn't trust him because then I wouldn't be surprised at least. I claimed that we were out of time when he asked me to be more specific than I was, but I was pretty blunt I guess, because he seemed to have problems writing out the receipt. He stopped and restarted several times while writing, including while writing his own signature.
So now I'm afraid of course. But I can't call for reassurance, because the last thing I said to him on my way out was that I'd probably call him for reassurance. And I don't want to prove myself right about *anything* I said after becoming my rational self.
It's just too too humiliating. I would have never said the things I said in the way I said them if I weren't in superrational mode.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 21:53:58
In reply to I used Babble a whole lot, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 21:36:26
how happy I was if I got him to laugh. And that I was more invested in that than I was in the more difficult things I ought to be tackling.
Now he'll probably quit laughing. :(
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 21:56:22
In reply to I also told him, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 21:53:58
I'm *really* not very nice in superrational mode. Not nice to or about him and not nice to or about myself.
I guess he probably already knows that and won't hold it against me, right?
Posted by muffled on December 12, 2005, at 22:07:29
In reply to Sigh, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 21:56:22
Posted by sleepygirl on December 12, 2005, at 22:16:18
In reply to I used Babble a whole lot, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 21:36:26
I'm sorry, just trying to understand...were you angry when you explained it "bluntly" as you say or just sort of removed in a "super-rational" way because the topic is sensitive? Do you feel like you said too much? that it was understood?
are you embarrassed? are these too many questions :-)?
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:20:04
In reply to Re: I used Babble a whole lot » Dinah, posted by sleepygirl on December 12, 2005, at 22:16:18
I think I was rude and overly blunt, both to myself and to him. I know I said too much, and I knew it at the time. Superrational me doesn't care too much for therapy and thinks rather poorly of him and doesn't make much of a secret about it.
I'm sure I've posted here extremely uncomplimentary things from time to time that seem out of character for how I usually think of my therapist? Or maybe I've been relatively careful not to...
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:22:06
In reply to RIGHT!!! (nm) » Dinah, posted by muffled on December 12, 2005, at 22:07:29
I hope so. I mean he did ask specifically knowing I was in superrational mode.
But I'll bet it's difficult to reconcile hearing things out of my mouth and understanding that at least part of me doesn't believe them at all.
Posted by sleepygirl on December 12, 2005, at 22:25:09
In reply to Re: I used Babble a whole lot » sleepygirl, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:20:04
did you think you were trying to distance yourself from him and/or your feelings about not feeling special? I'm just curious, you don't have to tell me of course
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:28:26
In reply to Re: I used Babble a whole lot » Dinah, posted by sleepygirl on December 12, 2005, at 22:25:09
I was definitely bracing myself for what he was about to say, but apparently decided not to say. I don't think I was trying to divert him from saying it.
I should have said nothing and let him continue without thinking. Then I would have known what it was he was going to say about how clients weren't special.
I'm usually very careful to stay in emotional mode in therapy, partly because that's the part of me that enjoys going, but partly because I'm afraid what I'll say if I am in rational mode. :(
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:31:56
In reply to Re: I used Babble a whole lot » sleepygirl, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:28:26
Aside from my embarassment at what I told him, I was scared to post this for fear of not making any sense at all. I know I don't usually talk this way. And I know it's confusing.
Posted by sleepygirl on December 12, 2005, at 22:35:36
In reply to Oh, I know I'm making no sense, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:31:56
It's OK...you don't have to make too much sense, and it could be me ya know :-)
but you were embarrassed? now there's a feeling I relate to alright
Posted by annierose on December 12, 2005, at 22:37:07
In reply to Oh, I know I'm making no sense, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:31:56
I think I'm following this ...
And I don't think you should feel embarassed. You shared honest feelings; if anything it may bring you closer together (as if that is possible). I'm just sad that you mentioned you might not see him for 2 weeks after next. Another long break after just re-establishing some regular appointments.
And I think I know that feeling of over-exposing one's self. It's so raw. It's like being caught naked ... YIKES!
I think you should call. It might ease your mind wanderings. So what if you're right! You know yourself better than anyone.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:45:27
In reply to Re: Oh, I know I'm making no sense » Dinah, posted by annierose on December 12, 2005, at 22:37:07
In this case it feels more like my rational self exposed my emotional self, and hurt everyone in the process.
I'm afraid that by validating one thing I said (by calling him) I'd be validating the other things I said. And I don't really want to do that. Because maybe some of the facts were correct (and maybe some of them weren't), but the spin on the facts really wasn't correct, and I don't want my therapist to think it was. :(
Fortunately he's got a rotten memory and will have hopefully forgotten all of this, or not have taken it as seriously as I did.
It was kind of weird seeing him having trouble concentrating writing the receipt. It made me feel like it was every bit as bad as I thought it was.
But it probably wasn't. He really does have a bad memory.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:47:33
In reply to Re: Oh, I know I'm making no sense » Dinah, posted by sleepygirl on December 12, 2005, at 22:35:36
I was humiliated.
In some ways it wasn't anything he doesn't already know. It's just that the words were so very different and so it sounded way different than how I usually think of it, and how I hope he usually thinks of it.
Posted by sleepygirl on December 12, 2005, at 22:50:58
In reply to Re: Oh, I know I'm making no sense » sleepygirl, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:47:33
well I hope you'll talk to him about it some more...now when's the next time?..a while from now?
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:53:31
In reply to Re: Oh, I know I'm making no sense » Dinah, posted by sleepygirl on December 12, 2005, at 22:50:58
Thursday.
Yeah, I'm going to start by checking to see how much he remembers. Then denying anything he does remember. I think I can honestly deny believing just about everything I said.
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:56:59
In reply to Re: Oh, I know I'm making no sense » sleepygirl, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:53:31
It's an area that I usually avoid visiting on Babble. And I'm sure it's confusing to everyone.
Let's all just pretend I continued to use the good sense of not talking about it here?
Posted by sleepygirl on December 12, 2005, at 23:02:19
In reply to Re: Oh, I know I'm making no sense » sleepygirl, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:53:31
I hope it goes well then, "take the 5th" if you need to, but perhaps there may evolve an interesting discussion
Posted by sleepygirl on December 12, 2005, at 23:04:16
In reply to I shouldn't have said any of this, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 22:56:59
OK I didn't read a word of it!! but I'm not shocked a bit, only wishing I could communicate some things of this quality to my T
Posted by daisym on December 13, 2005, at 0:13:19
In reply to I used Babble a whole lot, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 21:36:26
I think you make complete sense. I've been using the Board myself a lot lately to start discussions. And I've trashed therapy, so to speak, when I'm in that place of total adult independence.
My guess is that your therapist was going to tell you that you ARE special -- and I think that scared you, probably more than hearing you *aren't* -- like you said, you try to keep some distance. What does it mean if he is emotionally invested in you too? All of you - not just emotional you?
Do you know how many clients he is seeing right now?
I think you did just fine. You were honest and blunt. It sounds like a good discussion to continue, not hide from.
I'm sorry you feel so bad.
Daisy
Posted by orchid on December 13, 2005, at 4:50:05
In reply to I used Babble a whole lot, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2005, at 21:36:26
Sounds to me from your post that the worst thing you are afraid of is, to be a sexual human being. More than anything else.But I think, it is time for you to somehow try to accept that. That, it is ok to be a grown woman with appropriate needs.
Whatever happened with your dad or family when you were growing up, I think it is time to move past those issues and accept yourself as a 40 + woman, for whom it is ok to have sexual feelings, and it is ok for people to think you might have sexual feelings about them (your therapist included). What he does about it is his problem. But I think you are extremely scared of coming across as being flirty (in your own words), and it really need not be that much of a shame and guilt producing thing. It rather is expected, and ok for a woman to have those feelings.
I have a feeling that more than anything else you work on therapy, you probably need to focus on this aspect of yours, and it might end up solving all the other issues.
I know you have said in the past that you stubbornly refuse to grow up and be a woman, and you like yourself as a child. But do you really feel it is that dangerous? It may not be so.
(((Dinah)))
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2005, at 7:40:21
In reply to Re: I used Babble a whole lot » Dinah, posted by orchid on December 13, 2005, at 4:50:05
No, that's not it.
I tend to be of the once bitten twice shy school, and one time in the ten plus years I've seen him he's taken something I said and made it ugly and sexual. So I'm always afraid he'll do it again. But I should have known he wouldn't.
It was to do with betraying my own trust that bothered me. That and embarassing me. And being rude.
But I think youi had to have been there to understand. Or at least know a bunch of things I really don't disclose here on Babble.
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2005, at 7:52:08
In reply to Re: I used Babble a whole lot » Dinah, posted by daisym on December 13, 2005, at 0:13:19
I think he wasn't going to tell me I was special. He was relaxed and not guarded and I think he was going to slip up and say something hurtful. Something that didn't necessarily need to be said, but that I probably need to hear. Not about me in particular.
I shouldn't have run away. I should have known what would happen, given what's going on. My rational self is not at all happy that I've decided to try to re-establish the relationship that was weakened by the six weeks without seeing him. My rational self thought I should have used that time to break free, with or without another therapist, it didn't matter. And my rational self is *really* p.o.'d that I would consider my therapist when making the family decision of whether or not to move. And even more about the plans my emotional self is making to try to stop that move. When my rational self doesn't even think my therapist can be relied on to be there. There's a whole lot of anger that came out both directly and in the point of view of the "facts" I was relaying.
My rational self might have been honest, but my rational self's truth doesn't necessarily reflect my emotional self's truth at all. Far from it. And I'm afraid that although he knows intellectually that that is true, he might not know that in his gut. I'm far more eloquent in rational mode. :(
Posted by happyflower on December 13, 2005, at 12:01:26
In reply to Re: I used Babble a whole lot » daisym, posted by Dinah on December 13, 2005, at 7:52:08
I could be off base here, so I appolize if I am . But it seems like you might feel angry for wanting to be special to him. Maybe you really want him to tell you that you are without you "asking" or promting him. I am sure you mean a lot to him, but sometimes we need to hear it I think. But then there is always that self dought, that says why would I even matter, I am just a client to him. Its a circle of emotions.
Posted by Dinah on December 13, 2005, at 18:32:39
In reply to Re: I used Babble a whole lot, posted by happyflower on December 13, 2005, at 12:01:26
Happyflower, thanks for caring enough to respond.
I do know that he cares about me. He's proved that over the last six months or so to my satisfaction. But I also know that his guard was down and he was about to say the sort of thing he would ordinarily screen out of his therapeutic comments to me. Because we weren't talking about our relationship specifically. We were talking about therapy in general.
I had that sort of horrified fascination you might feel at overhearing therapists talk to each other about us. Shudder.
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