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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 4 of 4. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on November 29, 2005, at 8:17:50
The other day my therapist said that it felt like I wanted him to punish me. I was just miserable that day, and completely avoiding whatever it was that I needed to talk about. I couldn't form the ideas in my head - my unconscious was working very hard to make me avoid.
Then I was unable to clean my house for my daughter's Thanksgiving visit. She is allergic to dog hair, and I like to have my house cleaner than average for her benefit. But I stood in the middle of the floor looking at the dog hair, unable to put the vacuum together. And it felt like I wanted HER to punish me.
So I journalled. Why did I want to be punished? What was it that I did wrong? I decided that what I've done wrong is that I've wasted the last 10 years of my life by being depressed. Those years were important to my kids, and I let them down. I have very little patience for not doing things right the first time. I don't allow myself to need to learn things - I should know them to begin with (after all, I'm "smart", right?). So, from my perspective, I have done a terrible thing by being depressed for 10 years. If I can overcome the depression now, why couldn't I do that 10 years ago?
So what does this have to do with cleaning my house? Having my daughter be proud of me may be the most important thing in the world for me. If I can't get my house cleaned, then she will have pity for me ("Poor Mom, she still can't do everyday things"). So *not* allowing myself to do the things I need to do in order for her to be proud of me *is* punishment. This is the way that I am punishing myself.
So what now? Now I need to learn to forgive myself for the last 10 years. Logicially I can understand that I didn't know what to do to get better, that I tried my hardest to figure it out, that I worked hard in therapy. I would be able to tell someone else that they had done what they could. I need to tell this to myself. And (surprisingly) I am allowing myself to tell myself that I should forgive. That I was not "bad" because I couldn't overcome this before. That it is reasonable for me to need to learn things (that is the hardest part for me).
As my therapist said, it is preposterous for me to punish myself for being depressed by being depressed.
So, Racer, this is why *I* can't get anything done.
Posted by one woman cine on November 29, 2005, at 8:57:04
In reply to Punishment and forgiveness, posted by fallsfall on November 29, 2005, at 8:17:50
Insightful & very well said!
"Exactly what are we defending against" or "why are we defending" are entire other topics for me. & punishment, well - that's a whole other topic too. Journalling is a great tool, but so is a good therapist - those eureka moments are so worth the effort in the end.
When your not feeling well, it's not your fault. There are reasons why it happens the way it does.
And, I find I am learning something all the time, it's the way we evolve - after all evrything is just a work in progress.
Thanks again for such a great post!
Posted by one woman cine on November 29, 2005, at 9:50:14
In reply to Punishment and forgiveness, posted by fallsfall on November 29, 2005, at 8:17:50
Oh yeah,
you might find this interesting or helpful - (Stephen Mitchell once wrote about this in his book, "Relational Concepts in Psychoanalysis") - there is a metaphor to the myth of Penelope from Homer's "The Odyssey" -(here's the link....)
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/penelope.htmlbut the gist is of it is, we all have a way of undoing ourselves, in life, in therapy, in relationships...
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 10:22:50
In reply to Punishment and forgiveness, posted by fallsfall on November 29, 2005, at 8:17:50
There have been times when I want to provoke my therapist into a fight so that I can argue with him about *why* I feel like I do and justify things. The acceptance and understanding that is so readily offered does not give me the chance to defend myself and turn him into the person to be angry with.
I see this as sort of similiar to your punishment issue. If we can feel punishment from another person, then we can (sort of, kind of) tell ourselves that we have paid the price, we have "served our time" and we can, sometimes, be mad at the other person for being punishing, instead of being mad at ourselves. It also distracts from the work we need to do -- we look at the punishments, or attitudes, or whatever and tell ourselves, "see -- I am bad -- I deserve this punishment -- otherwise, why would they be wanting to punish me?" And feeling bad about being punished saps our energy for other things. And then not doing these other things, justifies the punishment.
This is only a small part of it, I know. But I'm so impressed that you are seeing it so clearly, noticing your own behavior and what seems to be behind it. And self-forgiveness *is* the key -- but I think it is very hard. It is tremendous that you can entertain the possibility that you deserve to be forgiven.
I could argue that there is nothing to forgive. But I can see how that won't resonate. Seems to me that you have some grieving to do, for the lost time and for the you you were before, and then acceptance of the new you that is blossoming. I know (oh too well) that this isn't a linear process, nor is it a quick one. But you sound so determined to keep going forward, to not let slips push you back and keep you down. And don't forget that I'm always happy to help you get back up when you do slip.
You are my hero.
(((Fallsfall)))
This is the end of the thread.
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