![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on August 16, 2005, at 16:39:40
In reply to Terrible Session, posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 15:10:41
((((Cricket))))
Glad to see your post. I have been wondering / worrying about you...I think it is amazing that you told him about your dream :-) I'm far too chicken to talk about stuff like that...
I don't know much about dream interpretation... But I reckon the principle of charity probably applies there too, ESPECIALLY when someone is offering an interpretation that the dreamer isn't so sure about...I think... Kids are scaired. And vulnerable. But she reached out to him and he was speaking a different language and rather than just being there and being kind he said one of the most hurtful things anyone could say:
> Today we are going to talk about the time of the child. From the beginning, we should understand that the child is stupid:-(
> So my therapist's interpretation:
> I think he is stupid. (from his words the child is stupid in the dream)???
Not sure how he got to that... I would have thought that it shows that you are scaired that he will think that you are stupid...
> I don't think he is genuine. He puts up some officious front like a social secretary and that's all I get. (From when the alter did get through, she got some sort of assistant who manages his affairs and the only part of him she got was a lecture).Hmm. Did you tell him that?
> My therapist was very upset. He said there are things revealed by this dream which it is hard to discuss in any context. I was bracing to hear them but then he ended the session.
> I think what he wanted to say was I'm really not capable of doing this work. He edged toward them by saying "You think you are hopeless. You think therapy is the stupidest thing in the world. You wonder why the h*** you are here." He said all this with such coldness that it felt as if he had put "I" in the place of the yous.Sounds to me like he is feeling scaired and undervalued. So maybe I'm projecting... But it does sound more about him than you...
> This doesn't feel like something we can recover from. I don't think he is stupid, and I can tell him that, but he won't believe me. He did say, "You think I'm stupid to think you might be something other than stupid," which is true. I can't deny that.Smart people can say stupid things sometimes ;-)
> I just hope it's over next week. I just hope he terminates me quickly. He did say, "You want a mercy killing, don't you. Just kill you and get it over with." So maybe it will be swift.Hopefully he is more interested in giving you what will be helpful to you rather than giving you what you want.
I read something somewhere...
About how the nature of the therapy relationship is that it is time limited.
That it brings up the memories of trauma.
They will leave.
They will do that which traumatised us the most.
We are the helpless victims from the start
And they are damned if they do this
And damned if they don't
Not a very nice place to be
But there is still no excuse for lashing out.
The interpretation of dreams isn't hard
Because the ego has split
It is all there open to view in the alters.
You don't have to dig quite the same
The apparant complexity of that
Means all lies open to view
Embarrasingly...
I don't think...
That with this disorder...
You are supposed to dig
Because all lies open to view.>I tried to think about what I wanted him to say. I wanted him to say, "I'm sorry she couldn't reach me. I'm sorry I wasn't there for her. Tell her not to be so nervous about talking to me."
I don't understand why thats too much to ask...
>Instead, he said, "I think she had better learn how to dial a telephone," and "If she wants to talk to me it had better be before 2:30 because that's the last time I am available" In the dream the note told her to call by 2:30 and 2:30 is the end of our session.
:-(
>Our relationship had been going okay, I thought. Although I haven't felt particularly close to him, we haven't been fighting.
>Will we talk about it in our next session? I don't know. I don't think he gets over things so easily. So he will probably bring it up. I will just retreat into my shell of silence until he terminates me.
:-( I don't know what to say... I think you should try and tell him. Even if you have to write it down and give it to him. About what you would have liked him to say. About what you think the dream means (maybe focus on the nice bits). About how what he said hurt you.
That you want to keep working with him (if you still do)
Maybe he will learn to change...
I don't know.
I'm sorry :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on August 16, 2005, at 18:31:48
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » cricket, posted by alexandra_k on August 16, 2005, at 16:39:40
There is something... Apparant coping?? Maybe thats it... I can't remember... It is when people appear to be cool calm collected competent and together (shame that didn't start with 'c') when on the inside they feel like they are falling apart.
Maybe your t isn't getting how vulnerable you feel.
Especially if you guys have been fighting and / or having mostly intellectual discussions...
But then... You are hardly going to risk the vulnerable parts if it happens that when you take a risk (like you did with the dream) that he will stomp on them :-(
I don't think all is lost...
I remember that you have been talking for a while about an urge to run away.
And I really don't think that that would be best.
Sounds like you get on mostly - it is just that things are hard sometimes and there can be miscommunications.Please try to sort it out.
Tell him what you think the dream meant to you...
Even if you are wrong (and I don't reckon that you are)
Its important what you think it means because its in light of that that what he said about it hurts so much.I'm sorry that things are hard at the moment.
Posted by jadah on August 16, 2005, at 18:43:55
In reply to Terrible Session, posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 15:10:41
i think this is worth pursueing further. Im wondering if you are self sabatoging? Are you trying to push him away or are you trying to put your T in a situation where he would have to make such a decision? Never make assumptions as to what we think our T is thinking but not saying.... check it out with them b/c quite often what we think/feel/fear is far worsed than the truth.
Posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 20:40:50
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » cricket, posted by alexandra_k on August 16, 2005, at 16:39:40
>
> I think it is amazing that you told him about your dream :-) I'm far too chicken to talk about stuff like that...Hi Alex. Yes, I guess it was brave and not exactly wise. Sometimes kids are like that too.
>
>
> I think... Kids are scaired. And vulnerable. But she reached out to him and he was speaking a different language and rather than just being there and being kind he said one of the most hurtful things anyone could say:
>
> > Today we are going to talk about the time of the child. From the beginning, we should understand that the child is stupid
>
> :-(
>
> > So my therapist's interpretation:
>
> > I think he is stupid. (from his words the child is stupid in the dream)
>
> ???
> Not sure how he got to that... I would have thought that it shows that you are scaired that he will think that you are stupid...I think he was probably interpreting the dream in a Jungian way (he talks about Jung a lot), as compensation for a conscious attitude. Jung once said he dreamed of one of his patients and she was way up high and he had to bend his neck backwards to look up at her so Jung knew that in reality he was looking down on this woman and that was part of the problem he was having with the analysis. So if in my dream my therapist was saying I (or a part of me) am stupid, in reality I was saying he is stupid.
>
> > I don't think he is genuine. He puts up some officious front like a social secretary and that's all I get. (From when the alter did get through, she got some sort of assistant who manages his affairs and the only part of him she got was a lecture).
>
> Hmm. Did you tell him that?
No, he kept on probing. Well what was the person like who answered the phone finally? At this point, I knew he was upset about the dream so I was shut down already and just said I don't know it just wasn't you. Which is really all that little girl wanted was to hear his voice and not someone else's.Of course, I think I have called him officious here on Babble at some point. It seems highly unlikely he would ever be at a place like this though.
>
> > My therapist was very upset. He said there are things revealed by this dream which it is hard to discuss in any context. I was bracing to hear them but then he ended the session.
>
> > I think what he wanted to say was I'm really not capable of doing this work. He edged toward them by saying "You think you are hopeless. You think therapy is the stupidest thing in the world. You wonder why the h*** you are here." He said all this with such coldness that it felt as if he had put "I" in the place of the yous.
>
> Sounds to me like he is feeling scaired and undervalued. So maybe I'm projecting... But it does sound more about him than you...
>
He also said it was a very negative transference. Maybe, I don't give him a lot of positive feedback and I certainly don't make much progress. I did notice when I came in that his eyes were all red. I immediately thought he had a cold, but he didn't seem sniffly so I thought that he was upset about something. I actually was stupid enough to think that maybe the dream might cheer him a bit. Let him know that somebody really wanted to talk to him.
> Hopefully he is more interested in giving you what will be helpful to you rather than giving you what you want.
>
> I read something somewhere...
>
> About how the nature of the therapy relationship is that it is time limited.
> That it brings up the memories of trauma.
> They will leave.
> They will do that which traumatised us the most.
> We are the helpless victims from the start
> And they are damned if they do this
> And damned if they don't
> Not a very nice place to be
> But there is still no excuse for lashing out.
> The interpretation of dreams isn't hard
> Because the ego has split
> It is all there open to view in the alters.
> You don't have to dig quite the same
> The apparant complexity of that
> Means all lies open to view
> Embarrasingly...
> I don't think...
> That with this disorder...
> You are supposed to dig
> Because all lies open to view.
>
Maybe that's it. Sometimes, as I think I've said before, I'm not sure he has all that many actual miles logged dealing with people like me. He has a private practice probably in one of the most affluent zip codes in the United States.
> :-( I don't know what to say... I think you should try and tell him. Even if you have to write it down and give it to him. About what you would have liked him to say. About what you think the dream means (maybe focus on the nice bits). About how what he said hurt you.
>
> That you want to keep working with him (if you still do)
>
> Maybe he will learn to change...
> I don't know.
> I'm sorry :-(
>
>
>
Thanks Alex. I don't know either. Maybe he does realize he needs to change. Maybe the way he jumped to such a defensive posture is perhaps a bit of guilt on his part that my parts can't often access him and he does present as officious and formal much of the time.Since he's been throwing Jung at me. I actually went and looked for that part about Jung's dream. It's in his autobiography "Memories, Dreams, Reflections". I also found this
"...in any thoroughgoing analysis the whole personality of both patient and doctor is called into play. There are many cases which the doctor cannot cure without committing himself. When important matters are at stake, it makes all the difference whether the doctor sees himself as part of the drama, or cloaks himself in his authority."
And this, "The doctor is effective only when he himself is affected. Only the wounded physician heals. But when the doctor wears his personality like a coat of armor, he has no effect...It often happens that the patient is exactly the right plaster for the doctor's sore spot. Because this is so, difficult situtations can arise for the doctor too - or rather, especially for the doctor."
So maybe he is having a bit of his own crisis. Maybe this is all too much for him and he knows that deep inside I know it too.
Posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 20:43:49
In reply to Re: Terrible Session, posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 20:40:50
Posted by Poet on August 16, 2005, at 20:45:35
In reply to Terrible Session, posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 15:10:41
Hi Cricket,
It's adult me that looks back and sees child me as stupid. I don't see how in your dream you are calling your therapist stupid. It sounds like he is projecting his own fear of looking stupid onto your little girl alter.
<< I think what he wanted to say was I'm really not capable of doing this work. He edged toward them by saying "You think you are hopeless. You think therapy is the stupidest thing in the world. You wonder why the h*** you are here." He said all this with such coldness that it felt as if he had put "I" in the place of the yous.
I think this was rude and unprofessional. Again, it's like he's projecting. Maybe you should find a different therapist? All of you deserve to feel cared for and not afraid to talk about waking or sleep states.
Safe cyber hugs.
Poet
Posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 20:54:44
In reply to Re: Terrible Session, posted by jadah on August 16, 2005, at 18:43:55
I do plenty of self sabotaging so that's always a possibility. But I think that I was hearing him clearly this afternoon.
Are you trying to push him away or are you trying to put your T in a situation where he would have to make such a decision?
No, I was trying to say a part desperately was trying to connect with him. On the other hand, if he has any hesitation at all about working with me, I want him to terminate me. This is costing me every cent I have and quite a few that I don't so if he is conflicted, at least he should spare me financial ruin.
Posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 20:57:34
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » cricket, posted by Poet on August 16, 2005, at 20:45:35
Thanks Poet. I need the hugs.
Yeah, he's no cauldron of warmth even on his best days but today he was off even for him.
Let's both tell our kids that they're super smart :-)
Posted by Dinah on August 16, 2005, at 21:05:06
In reply to Terrible Session, posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 15:10:41
He sounds more defensive than critical, Cricket. They're human too, and sometimes it shows.
He's been pretty good about responding to you when you bring things to his attention. He might surprise you if you express hurt at his reaction by being pretty decent about it. Especially if you tell him no criticism was implied.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 16, 2005, at 21:27:41
In reply to Re: Terrible Session, posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 20:40:50
> Hi Alex. Yes, I guess it was brave and not exactly wise. Sometimes kids are like that too.
Yes, it was brave. I know he hurt you :-( But some good could come of it yet.
The Jung stuff sounds like reverse psychology LOL! I dunno... Sure, in some cases... But in this case I think he missed the mark.I think it does come back to the point that he doesn't have to plumb the depths of your unconscious. Your unconscious is there in your alters. You aren't so vulnerable and scaired - but one of your alters is. Its right there open to view. I don't think there is any more to it than that.
Maybe it was about superficial and latent content (I really don't know as much about all this stuff as I would like...) Something about how typically the superficial content (the 'easy' reading of dreams etc) is supposed to mask the latent content which is just too hard for the person to bear. Typically you have to do a lot of digging to unearth the latent content from the superficial content.
But in DID the latent content is delegated out to the alters. So communication with alters gives you that latent content. No digging required.
I would guess... That you aren't so very scaired of him... But that part of you is. And that there isn't really so very much more to it than that.
> > > I don't think he is genuine. He puts up some officious front like a social secretary and that's all I get. (From when the alter did get through, she got some sort of assistant who manages his affairs and the only part of him she got was a lecture).I think... Your seeing him in that way may have been upsetting to him. It sounds like he was fairly upset to think that you think he is stupid. That wouldn't be so nice for anyone :-( But it does sound like he took that fairly personally. Which means he has issues there...
> He also said it was a very negative transference. Maybe, I don't give him a lot of positive feedback and I certainly don't make much progress. I did notice when I came in that his eyes were all red. I immediately thought he had a cold, but he didn't seem sniffly so I thought that he was upset about something. I actually was stupid enough to think that maybe the dream might cheer him a bit. Let him know that somebody really wanted to talk to him.
Hmm.
I would say... That some positive feedback about now might be nice. Maybe if you tell him about how you saw the dream. What you would have liked him to say. That you are afraid that he will think your kids are stupid. How that makes you feel. It also sounds like he is a bit emotionally distant which you are finding really hard. Maybe he is distancing himself because he thinks that you think he is stupid ;-) Sounds like a bit of a miscommunication. But you could sort that out by taking another risk (I know its hard) and showing him that you really do care what he thinks and it sounds like you are both afraid of the same things in some respects.
> Maybe that's it. Sometimes, as I think I've said before, I'm not sure he has all that many actual miles logged dealing with people like me.I dunno if that is a pro or a con... I sometimes think that the 'experts' are more rigid and non-responsive because they are so coloured by past clients and the way things *should* be. I dunno. The best clinician I ever had was in her intern year. Wisest is she who knows (and is prepared to admit) to what she does not know...
> Maybe the way he jumped to such a defensive posture is perhaps a bit of guilt on his part that my parts can't often access him and he does present as officious and formal much of the time.
Thats worth talking about.
(But I'd be a bit careful at this point)
> "...in any thoroughgoing analysis the whole personality of both patient and doctor is called into play. There are many cases which the doctor cannot cure without committing himself. When important matters are at stake, it makes all the difference whether the doctor sees himself as part of the drama, or cloaks himself in his authority."> And this, "The doctor is effective only when he himself is affected. Only the wounded physician heals. But when the doctor wears his personality like a coat of armor, he has no effect...It often happens that the patient is exactly the right plaster for the doctor's sore spot. Because this is so, difficult situtations can arise for the doctor too - or rather, especially for the doctor."
Yes... To a point. But then too much involvement can lead to clouded judgement and unhelpful counter-transference... There has to be a balance.
> Maybe this is all too much for him and he knows that deep inside I know it too.Maybe thats what both of you are afraid of.
I think thats whats hard about me too.
Because sometimes I have this real urge / need to *touch* people, or to *move* them.
I need that.
And its a sort of connection that I try to dig out of them sometimes.
And its not the sort of thing that is terribly consistent with an officious or competent or immovable facade.
I guess I'm pretty emotionally intense.
So there is a fine line between giving me freedom to express
And retaining ones own sanity
:-(
Which is why people tend to burn out
:-(
I really don't know what to say.
Except...
That it sounds like you have been through a lot together.
That it sounds like he really does care about you and about helping you (or he wouldn't be upset)
That it sounds like you ARE making progress (because you want to run)
That there is some kind of miscommunication.I dunno...
And maybe this is just me talking from my history here...
But I would say that its time for some repairing relationship kind of stuff.
So that he knows you do appreciate him
And that you do want to keep working with him
And that you do like him (I reckon its okay to think that some of what he says is stupid 'cause nobody is perfect)
And that your little kids are scaired because they need to be nurtured
Not treated harshly.
Posted by Shortelise on August 17, 2005, at 0:29:46
In reply to Terrible Session, posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 15:10:41
I just want to hug you cricket. I want to pick you up and wrap these, plump motherly arms around you and hold you in a warm, safe way.
There are a couple of things I'm not sure of here, and that's what you are hearing and what your T is actually saying.
In your place, I'd go back to him next time and tell him what it sounded like he said to you, what it was that you heard. And how you felt.
(((cricket)))
ShortE
Posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 6:51:30
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » cricket, posted by Dinah on August 16, 2005, at 21:05:06
> He sounds more defensive than critical, Cricket. They're human too, and sometimes it shows.
>
Yeah, I agree. Criticism might be easier to take than defensiveness though. Criticism you can fight if you think it's wrong or learn from if it's right. But when someone is defensive it's like dealing with a phantom especially in a stupid therapy relationship where I'll never know what nerve I touched.> He's been pretty good about responding to you when you bring things to his attention. He might surprise you if you express hurt at his reaction by being pretty decent about it. Especially if you tell him no criticism was implied.
We'll see. I feel very shut down. My own armor of "no one can hurt me. No one matters that much to me" is very much in place. He might ask for the little girl though. Then I'm not sure what will happen.
Posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 7:37:30
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » cricket, posted by alexandra_k on August 16, 2005, at 21:27:41
>
>
> I think it does come back to the point that he doesn't have to plumb the depths of your unconscious. Your unconscious is there in your alters. You aren't so vulnerable and scaired - but one of your alters is. Its right there open to view. I don't think there is any more to it than that.
>
> Maybe it was about superficial and latent content (I really don't know as much about all this stuff as I would like...) Something about how typically the superficial content (the 'easy' reading of dreams etc) is supposed to mask the latent content which is just too hard for the person to bear. Typically you have to do a lot of digging to unearth the latent content from the superficial content.
>
> But in DID the latent content is delegated out to the alters. So communication with alters gives you that latent content. No digging required.
>
Yeah, I think you're right. I wish there was some way to tell him this. Now might not be the best time.> I would guess... That you aren't so very scaired of him... But that part of you is. And that there isn't really so very much more to it than that.
>
Yeah, just part. There is another part that wants to curse him out. "Yo, get your head out of your b*tt. I show up each and every f***ing week, no matter what, because I think you're stupid. What kind of half a**ed logic is that."
Okay, maybe I won't let that part out anytime soon ;-)
> > > > I don't think he is genuine. He puts up some officious front like a social secretary and that's all I get. (From when the alter did get through, she got some sort of assistant who manages his affairs and the only part of him she got was a lecture).
>
> I think... Your seeing him in that way may have been upsetting to him. It sounds like he was fairly upset to think that you think he is stupid. That wouldn't be so nice for anyone :-( But it does sound like he took that fairly personally. Which means he has issues there...
>
Yeah, I think it may be a sensitivity to the formality thing even more than the stupidity.> > He also said it was a very negative transference. Maybe, I don't give him a lot of positive feedback and I certainly don't make much progress. I did notice when I came in that his eyes were all red. I immediately thought he had a cold, but he didn't seem sniffly so I thought that he was upset about something. I actually was stupid enough to think that maybe the dream might cheer him a bit. Let him know that somebody really wanted to talk to him.
>
> Hmm.
> I would say... That some positive feedback about now might be nice. Maybe if you tell him about how you saw the dream. What you would have liked him to say. That you are afraid that he will think your kids are stupid. How that makes you feel. It also sounds like he is a bit emotionally distant which you are finding really hard. Maybe he is distancing himself because he thinks that you think he is stupid ;-) Sounds like a bit of a miscommunication. But you could sort that out by taking another risk (I know its hard) and showing him that you really do care what he thinks and it sounds like you are both afraid of the same things in some respects.
>
I hope you are right. I can try... Maybe.
> > Maybe this is all too much for him and he knows that deep inside I know it too.
>
> Maybe thats what both of you are afraid of.
>
> I think thats whats hard about me too.
> Because sometimes I have this real urge / need to *touch* people, or to *move* them.
> I need that.
> And its a sort of connection that I try to dig out of them sometimes.
YES!
> And its not the sort of thing that is terribly consistent with an officious or competent or immovable facade.
> I guess I'm pretty emotionally intense.
> So there is a fine line between giving me freedom to express
> And retaining ones own sanity
> :-(
> Which is why people tend to burn out
> :-(
YES!
> I really don't know what to say.
> Except...
> That it sounds like you have been through a lot together.
Well, I've been through a lot. I'm not so sure about him.
> That it sounds like he really does care about you and about helping you (or he wouldn't be upset)
What you say makes sense. But does he? Or am I just scratching at the facade and he doesn't like it?
> That it sounds like you ARE making progress (because you want to run)
> That there is some kind of miscommunication.
>
> I dunno...
> And maybe this is just me talking from my history here...
> But I would say that its time for some repairing relationship kind of stuff.
> So that he knows you do appreciate him
> And that you do want to keep working with him
> And that you do like him (I reckon its okay to think that some of what he says is stupid 'cause nobody is perfect)
> And that your little kids are scaired because they need to be nurtured
> Not treated harshly.
>
Yes, I hope I can. Even if we decide not to work together anymore, he certainly did try. For more than three years he tried and that's more than anyone else in the world ever has.
Posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 7:45:31
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » cricket, posted by Shortelise on August 17, 2005, at 0:29:46
> I just want to hug you cricket. I want to pick you up and wrap these, plump motherly arms around you and hold you in a warm, safe way.
>
Oh yes, please. I feel so alone now.
>
> In your place, I'd go back to him next time and tell him what it sounded like he said to you, what it was that you heard. And how you felt.
>
I'm going to try. I hope I can try...
Posted by Dinah on August 17, 2005, at 9:08:37
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » Shortelise, posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 7:45:31
Why don't you print out your post and some of the responses and your responses to the responses. The ones that best summarize what's going on.
Copy them into a word processing program and edit out the Babble identifying information if you like.
I think he took the whole thing differently than you intended and there is a big misunderstanding at play here. You said some nice things about him, and learning to trust him, that maybe he needs to hear.
On the other hand, he does seem rather reactive and not great at keeping up the therapeutic neutrality. But on the other other hand, he does seem to care about you, is able to take constructive criticism, and if I recall, is pretty insightful at times.
Did you say he appeared upset even before you mentioned the dream? Maybe he had had a really bad day. Yeah, they're not supposed to let it affect them. But my therapist does from time to time.
Posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 11:31:21
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » cricket, posted by Dinah on August 17, 2005, at 9:08:37
That's a good idea. I think it all is a misunderstanding.
He did look like a bit of a mess yesterday and I actually thought the dream might cheer him up. Of course I can't actually say, "you looked like you were crying your eyes out."
Sometimes I do hate the boundaries of the therapy relationship. Wouldn't it be so much better if he could just say, "Listen I really had a terrible morning and your dream really pushed my buttons about my own stiff upper class ways (or whatever it was) and I'm sorry and I'm glad to hear that you don't think I'm stupid."
But my therapist never will. He'll go on about attachment theory and negative transference and how this all fits in perfectly (blah, blah, blah). Is this how therapy always is? Or is it my very intensity (as Alex was saying) causing him to layer on the self-protective armor?
I think I am his first appointment of the week. I always wondered if that is deliberate. Get the worst over with first kind of thing.
Not sure why I want to keep on analysing this but maybe there was something to our session that gets to the heart of a lot of our problems working together
Posted by antigua on August 17, 2005, at 11:37:50
In reply to Terrible Session, posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 15:10:41
Sounds like it's really him, not you, and he flipped out over his feelings that he can't help you. I don't think he necessarily can't, but he went overboard on his interpretation and put it back on you. Perhaps he should have spoken with a supervisor or someone before he blurted all that out.
Please have confidence in yourself. I don't think that dream deserved an over the top response (he'd have trouble listening to mine!)
best,
antigua
Posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 12:20:16
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » cricket, posted by antigua on August 17, 2005, at 11:37:50
Thanks Antigua.
I do hope he is talking to a supervisor about this. Maybe it's just burn-out on his end. We'll see what next week brings.
Posted by Dinah on August 17, 2005, at 13:16:11
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » Dinah, posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 11:31:21
That's a good thing though. That your problems crystallized in one session so that you can get a better grip on them.
Not all therapists do therapy that way. My therapist would be likely to tell me that he had had a rotten day. He might not tell me why, or at least not in any depth, but he doesn't try to pretend he's a therapist machine.
Posted by Tamar on August 17, 2005, at 13:41:50
In reply to Terrible Session, posted by cricket on August 16, 2005, at 15:10:41
Hi cricket,
I’m sorry your session was so hard. For what it’s worth, I agree with what others have said: I think your therapist misinterpreted your dream.
I think the little kid was afraid that your therapist thinks she’s stupid. Or she’s afraid that you think she’s stupid. And not just stupid; she also seems to feel incompetent (she can’t call the right number; she doesn’t know whether to hold on and wait to talk to him). And in the dream, the public lecture isn’t addressed to her; your therapist isn’t connecting with her personally because she’s in the audience; and in fact not actually present at the lecture but one step removed, listening over the phone.
It really sounds to me as if she wants to connect with him but she’s very afraid he won’t hear her and that he’ll talk past her or over her. Which is, in a way, exactly what seems to have happened…
It seems to me that all the things he said to you come from somewhere else… his own frustration perhaps. I think there is some reverse psychology in all this, but it’s his problem rather than yours. It sounds as if he’s feeling less than confident about being able to help you (hence the ‘you want a mercy killing’ remark). And I suspect he made a big deal out of saying you think he’s stupid because he didn’t want to face the possibility that you might think he’s officious.
However, the thing I think is very hopeful is that the dream therapist speaks the little girl’s language. He doesn’t speak the same Spanish, but he does speak a kind of Spanish that she understands. So it *is* possible for him to understand her, and for her to connect with him. She just has to get him off his podium…
I hope you’re able to sort it all out with him in your next session. It’s unpleasant and painful, but I do think it’s possible.
Tamar
Posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 15:46:38
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » cricket, posted by Dinah on August 17, 2005, at 13:16:11
That's funny.
Because that's what I was thinking - Dinah's T would have said he was having a bad day. :-)
Posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 16:10:07
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » cricket, posted by Tamar on August 17, 2005, at 13:41:50
Thanks Tamar. You made me feel a lot better.
You got the little kid exactly right. I wish he would.
And hey you're right. It wasn't exactly her language but she could understand him fine. So that's a hopeful point. Maybe I could start with that next week.
Yeah, get him off the podium... LOL. He is such a born and bred intellectual and she's such a street urchin.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 17, 2005, at 18:13:55
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » alexandra_k, posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 7:37:30
Okay... So... I get a bit worried about some of the things I say sometimes. Not sure whether I am helping or harming.
Sometimes I really don't know what I'm talking about. For example... That stuff about not needing to dig. That all lies open to view. I really have no idea where on earth I read that. I have no idea how reputable the source was, what their rationale for saying it was, whether there is consensus on that issue or not, whether there is a better rationale for an opposing pov. All I know is that it sounds reasonable to me, but then all I really know is that digging HURTS. And I do have a tendancy to rationalise...
So I don't know...
> Yeah, just part. There is another part that wants to curse him out. "Yo, get your head out of your b*tt. I show up each and every f***ing week, no matter what, because I think you're stupid. What kind of half a**ed logic is that."
> Okay, maybe I won't let that part out anytime soon ;-)Yeah. Thats hard. Contraries, opposing view points. If there is a part that is afraid he will think her stupid... Then it may well be that there is another part that thinks he bloody well is stupid. Because parts tend to exemplify polar views. So maybe the Jung stuff is on to something after all... But teasing out the parts can be hard... And it can be hard if you just end up with a muddle of all kinds of opposing views. So very hard to make sense of it all...
I rationalise. My main defence. And my form of escape is to go away and rationalise something. The trouble is that I'm pretty good at it (if I do say so myself) and mostly manage to convince myself that I'm right. But its poorly motivated :-( I worry about that some. That my writing on DID isn't as objective as it should be for an academic piece because I have an agenda to push. Because I'm personally involved. Because I appreciate some of the consequence of what I'm saying. Because I'm careful to avoid the stuff that hurts.
So... I don't know.
> > > > > I don't think he is genuine. He puts up some officious front like a social secretary and that's all I get.Yeah. Thats hard. I feel like that mostly with p-docs. Hard to know how much to push and how much to respect that 'cause maybe its something they need to do for their sanity... Then I guess there is also the point about how some people want / need to have faith in their clinician. To feel like they are competent and in control and they know what to do and know what they are doing. And how much it is okay for them to say that they don't know. Hard to find the balance...
> Yeah, I think it may be a sensitivity to the formality
Sounds like the formality is an issue.
Have been thinking about this...
Maybe what I want sometimes is for someone to really walk beside me for a while.
And, for me, part of that is them feeling stuff alongside me.
But then most of my feeling states are horrible.
And so thats a big ask.
It has to be draining.
And so they pull back.
And I can't say I blame them.
And how fair is it to ask them to walk beside me anyways
When its such a horrible walk
I don't know
:-(
Sorry... My stuff... Not being very helpful again
<sigh>> am I just scratching at the facade and he doesn't like it?
Maybe. But then I don't think it is supposed to matter so much whether he likes it... It is supposed to be about him helping you to get better.
I don't know what to say.
I think that sometimes I need to be extra nice. To say how much I appreciate them. To do little things to show them. Because I am so hard to work with :-( And its too easy for them to feel disheartened. But its hard.
> Yes, I hope I can. Even if we decide not to work together anymore, he certainly did try. For more than three years he tried and that's more than anyone else in the world ever has.
:-)
You might want to tell him that.Sounds like its the coolness that you are having a hard time with...
Posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 19:44:44
In reply to Re: Terrible Session, posted by alexandra_k on August 17, 2005, at 18:13:55
> Okay... So... I get a bit worried about some of the things I say sometimes. Not sure whether I am helping or harming.
>
> Sometimes I really don't know what I'm talking about. For example... That stuff about not needing to dig. That all lies open to view. I really have no idea where on earth I read that. I have no idea how reputable the source was, what their rationale for saying it was, whether there is consensus on that issue or not, whether there is a better rationale for an opposing pov. All I know is that it sounds reasonable to me, but then all I really know is that digging HURTS. And I do have a tendancy to rationalise...
>
> So I don't know...
>
Well you helped me feel better and that's what Babble is about :-)
And I always find your opinions very interesting even if you don't remember the exact source of your information. So no fears there. But if you ever do run across anything on dreaming about alters I would love to hear about it.> > Yeah, just part. There is another part that wants to curse him out. "Yo, get your head out of your b*tt. I show up each and every f***ing week, no matter what, because I think you're stupid. What kind of half a**ed logic is that."
> > Okay, maybe I won't let that part out anytime soon ;-)
>
> Yeah. Thats hard. Contraries, opposing view points. If there is a part that is afraid he will think her stupid... Then it may well be that there is another part that thinks he bloody well is stupid. Because parts tend to exemplify polar views. So maybe the Jung stuff is on to something after all... But teasing out the parts can be hard... And it can be hard if you just end up with a muddle of all kinds of opposing views. So very hard to make sense of it all...
>
> I rationalise. My main defence. And my form of escape is to go away and rationalise something. The trouble is that I'm pretty good at it (if I do say so myself) and mostly manage to convince myself that I'm right. But its poorly motivated :-( I worry about that some. That my writing on DID isn't as objective as it should be for an academic piece because I have an agenda to push. Because I'm personally involved. Because I appreciate some of the consequence of what I'm saying. Because I'm careful to avoid the stuff that hurts.
>
I don't know about that Alex. I think you have a perspective and a passion to understand DID that a non-DID person couldn't ever have (call it agenda if you like, but I would think of it as motivation). I think you would be more objective actually. There's so much at stake, right?> Yeah. Thats hard. I feel like that mostly with p-docs. Hard to know how much to push and how much to respect that 'cause maybe its something they need to do for their sanity... Then I guess there is also the point about how some people want / need to have faith in their clinician. To feel like they are competent and in control and they know what to do and know what they are doing. And how much it is okay for them to say that they don't know. Hard to find the balance...
>
That reminded me once a long time ago he said to me, "Sometimes I don't know how to help you." I think he immediately regretting saying it, but it is definitely one of my favorite things he ever said. So I guess I take honest and genuine over competent and in control any day.> > Yeah, I think it may be a sensitivity to the formality
>
> Sounds like the formality is an issue.
>
>
> Have been thinking about this...
> Maybe what I want sometimes is for someone to really walk beside me for a while.Yes!
> And, for me, part of that is them feeling stuff alongside me.
> But then most of my feeling states are horrible.
> And so thats a big ask.
> It has to be draining.
> And so they pull back.
> And I can't say I blame them.
> And how fair is it to ask them to walk beside me anyways
> When its such a horrible walk
> I don't know
> :-(
> Sorry... My stuff... Not being very helpful again
> <sigh>
>
No, my stuff too and I'm feeling the same way.
> I think that sometimes I need to be extra nice. To say how much I appreciate them. To do little things to show them. Because I am so hard to work with :-( And its too easy for them to feel disheartened. But its hard.
>
> > Yes, I hope I can. Even if we decide not to work together anymore, he certainly did try. For more than three years he tried and that's more than anyone else in the world ever has.
>
> :-)
> You might want to tell him that.
>
Yeah, I hope I can.
> Sounds like its the coolness that you are having a hard time with...
>
And the fact that he got so upset (and yeah the hurt was cloaked in a cool lecture on attachment theory and negative transference) about something so unintentional on my part. I don't want to have to walk on eggshells around him. Then neither of us is being genuine.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 17, 2005, at 20:09:44
In reply to Re: Terrible Session » alexandra_k, posted by cricket on August 17, 2005, at 19:44:44
What did he say about attachment?
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