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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by LG04 on February 18, 2005, at 2:41:52
In reply to Emotional Abandonment, posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:45:03
Daisy, i too am a survivor of csa and more. my abandonment issues are huge. i hope that what i tell you will give you reason to feel hopeful and to believe that you can work thru this issue. like just about everything else, i think it's something that begins to heal over time, with a safe therapist.
i coped with my fears by asking for constant reassurance. i don't know if it's the best way for everyone, but for me, i needed to hear not 10 or 20 but 500 times or more that my therapist could "handle" me and wasn't going to leave. and i needed to see if her actions matched her words.
i have asked my therapist endlessly in the past two and a half years, "are you sure you aren't going to leave? how do you know FOR SURE?" and "what if you change your mind or your feelings change or i get too needy or i tell you something that is too much to take?" and i ask her a lot, "are you with me on this? are we still partners in this? (i.e. you're not going to emotionally abandon me, are you?) I've probably thought of every way in the world to ask this same essential question. and then i'm sure it's happened and i call her crying and tell her what i think she is thinking and feeling about me and she tells me that i'm simply and completely wrong. (you know how it is, one moment of silence in a certain place or a weird sound in her voice and that's it, i know she is leaving, no other explanation).
and calling her just to check that she's still here and going ballistic when she goes on vacation (emotional AND physical abandonment) and being furious yet so relieved when she actually returns, and freaking out when i can't get a hold of her and i think it's because she's avoiding (i.e. abandoning) me and then she explains to me exactly what happened and i see that it had nothing to do with me. and asking her if she still loves me, over and over and over again...oh i could go on forever.
and with every new, horrifying detail of the abuse, feeling certain that this time for sure, it was too much. that she couldn't take it. that she now thinks differently about me (after every detail-revealing session i'd ask, "do you feel differently about me now? do you think i am gross? bad?") I've asked her adult to adult how she deals with hearing this stuff so i could understand how she manages to stay present. one time she really screwed up (emotionally) and that was very hard for me but she came right back again. she's not as perfect as your therapist sounds, but she's very real and able to go with me to places that i'm afraid would scare off even my closest friends. and she has proven time and time again that she's incredibly committed to our relationship. i don't know why but she is.
that's how i coped. and still cope. i check out every single insecurity i have with her.
and so, what i can tell you is how much better and easier it has gotten. i don't need her reassurances as much as i used to. and when i do, sometimes i ask but sometimes now it's enough just to hear her prior responses in my head. Her consistency, her willingness to answer my same insecure questions over and over again, her dependability and solidness...at some point, mostly just from the passing of time and seeing that she is true to her word, i started to believe that she isn't going to leave. (even after i moved away several months ago, b/c we still talk on the phone twice a week).a few weeks ago i told her something that i was SURE would change her emotional availability towards me. but it didn't. it was very very intense and she acknowledged that she needed time to process it but she reassured me how normal it was for what happened to me and that nothing between us had changed. i was amazed.
and then the miraculous happened. she went on vacation this week and though i was upset about it for various reasons, one thing i do know for sure was that she will come back and that her feelings for me won't have changed during the vacation and everything will be the same when i talk to her on sunday. and that she hasn't emotionally abandoned me just b/c she is on vacation and inaccessible for a week.
THIS IS HUGE. she was absolutely amazed when i told her how secure i felt leading up to her vacation. and so was i. it's a huge psychological shift for me. i always feel intense emotional abandonment when she is gone but this time, i'm really fine. and this is after two years of hanging by my fingernails counting the minutes until she'd come back from a vacation and crying so much while she was away and feeling furious that she wasn't available and that she was rejecting me and so on.
i have learned: she's not going to leave, emotionally or physically. if the relationship ends, it will be my choice, not hers. she has told me this countless times. she's simply not going to abandon me. and i can feel this carrying over into my other relationships as well. lately i trust my friends more. i have been telling them more details of the abuse. i have let myself break down in front of them. and guess what? they haven't left. if anything, they've been more emotionally available than ever.the truth is, most people are not like our parents, thank G-d.
your therapist sounds like he's willing to reassure you as many times as you need to hear it. so i encourage you to ask for it. for me, this was most important. sometimes embarassing, yes. but i needed to be that little girl who could ask for reassurance a million times, and she let me.
your therapist sounds consistent. he sounds emotionally available and healthy and responsible. i can tell from what you have written that he isn't going to abandon you. he will be right there with you, for the entire journey, with every detail. he's simply not going to leave.
and i truly believe, from my own brand new experience, that in time you will know this too.
Posted by vwoolf on February 18, 2005, at 5:36:29
In reply to Emotional Abandonment, posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:45:03
The other day I experienced an awful feeling of abandonment similar to what the book describes. My husband and I were quarrelling very violently - he shouts and becomes verbally (and physically) abusive - and I was trying desperately to get as far away from him as possible, moving from room to room. I finally reached our bedroom and closed the door. When I saw the door handle start to turn, I backed up into the far corner between a chest of drawers and the wall, and crouched on the floor in a foetal position, clutching my knees. I don't know why I did it, evidently I was responding to some terrible primitive memory. And all I could think was: "I wish my T was here, why isn't my T here, I wish I could call her but I know she'll be busy." My heart was beating madly, and I was trembling all over.
I told my T about the episode yesterday, and she said I was evidently reliving my mother's abandonment - that she never was there to chase my father away, and I must have wished and prayed for her to come and save me. And she never supported or helped me afterwards either, so it never went away. As you say, I encapsulated this feeling of abandonment for most of my life, and it came out when I relived a moment of sheer terror like I'd had as a child.
Luckily my husband stopped when he saw me curled up like that. I know I mustn't do it again - next time he might not stop and I would be very vulnerable in that position. I have told my T and the couple's T we are seeing (in front of him) that I am really physically afraid of my husband now. He is under so much strain that he just seems to snap. I sort of feel that I should move out until things calm down, but they tell me it is not a good time to leave. I trust them, but I feel very scared.
Posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 9:33:57
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment - might trigger, posted by vwoolf on February 18, 2005, at 5:36:29
why do men do that to women?
Posted by Susan47 on February 18, 2005, at 10:26:35
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment - might trigger » vwoolf, posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 9:33:57
Who for? Who is it not a good time to leave for? If it's you, then don't leave but if it's him, and you feel you need to stay for him, then for god's sake have an escape plan if it should get to him hitting you again. Because rage can make violence uncontrollable. You know that.
Posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 11:02:34
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment - might trigger, posted by Susan47 on February 18, 2005, at 10:26:35
is he receiving any anger management therapy while you are being asked to remain "for now"?!?!
A relationship takes two people working on it. If he's not, PLEASE protect yourself.
Posted by Susan47 on February 18, 2005, at 12:31:39
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment - might trigger, posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 11:02:34
Listen up to Sunny, there, hear, hear. We worry about you, sweetie.
Posted by vwoolf on February 18, 2005, at 13:02:36
In reply to VWoolf, posted by Susan47 on February 18, 2005, at 12:31:39
Thanks Susan and Sunny, I don't know why men do this to us. I know that I have spent a large part of my life pampering his every need (you have no idea to what extent - it seems impossible when I look at it objectively, but I won't go into detail), and now that I am beginning to try and find a small space for myself he is totally enraged and violent. We saw our couple's T yesterday, and after I spoke about what is happening she said she wants to see just him in therapy without me. I never really understand what T's are thinking, but she evidently thinks we are not even beginning to function as a couple. I feel very relieved that he will now be in therapy, and that his T knows my fears.
My T said that now would be a bad time to leave unless it gets really dangerous, because she feels we are still very enmeshed. Whatever that means. I trust her (also because I don't understand what is going on) and have to take her advice. She said that I started therapy not because I wanted a divorce but because I wanted to sort myself out. If it ends in divorce that's ok, but she wants to help me sort myself out first. Otherwise I will drag this one on and on, or go into another relationship and do the same. Which sort of makes sense, so I am doing what she says. But it's hard and scary.
Posted by Shortelise on February 18, 2005, at 13:22:21
In reply to Emotional Abandonment, posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:45:03
This seems to be a thread that runs through many of us, this feeling of being abandoned / fear of being abandoned.My mother dismissed my feelings from day one, rejected anything she herself didn't feel, couldn't bear for anyone other than herself to get attention, couldn't bear to compliment in any way but an undermining way. She made it clear that I was not entitled to feel, that my feelings were wrong. My sister said to me recently "I was such a weird little kid: I thought crying was bad." to which I replied, "You learned that, sister, you didn't invent it."
So I grew up hating myself for my feelings, unable to ask honestly for what I needed because my needs were not valid.
Am I again digressing?
So, as you mention is sometimes the case, it wasn't physical abuse that caused me to feel abandoned, though I did experience some of that too, but not so awful.
When I began to see in my T someone who validated my feelings, who heard them out, who commiserated, whose eyes sometimes filled for me, part of me wanted to clamp onto him limpet-like and never let go. Part of me wanted to high-tail it out of there and hide under my bed and name the dust bunnies. And part of me was frozen, afraid to do anything.
It is absolutely true that the things that happen in therapy between my therapist and me take on a huge signifigance, and can bowl me over. It's like AH-HA, he looked at me like THIS and that means he really doesn't mean anything he says; it means he is LYING! He's going to slaughter me emotionally, I just know it! It's the fight or flight thing, and the part of me that wanted to flee never won out, so, and I pity my poor T, I fought. The part of me that wanted to flee was not as strong as the hopeful part of me, I think, that hidden bit that somehow was able to keep me going back, that on some level trusted him.
And I trust him to guide me through it all.
Daisy, I guess it's a lot to ask of him, and I know I've said this before, it's his chosen profession, it's what he wants to do. It is not you asking it of him, it's him asking it of himself.
Imagine if you were him, watching you go through all of this, facing things, feeling things, thinking about it, and coming out the other side with insight and strength.
Daisy, you amaze me. You are so insightful, and you insights are so helpful to me.
ShortE
Posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 13:45:45
In reply to Re: VWoolf, posted by vwoolf on February 18, 2005, at 13:02:36
okay, Ican see that.... I myself have simply bailed on relationships and wound up right where I started with same guy, different name...
Just be careful. I, too, have "bentover backwards", (and in other directions as well) and for me those things that I can't mention to anyone are those things which have made me feel ashamed of myself.... The fact was that I'd do anything for someone to love me- even though I wasn't even liking myself at the time...
Very scary for me to realize that I had "helped" bad things to happen to me by allowing things that I wouldn't now...
It's possible that you do these things, too. And it is possible that T can help you with them.
BUT I still think that you should ask T about how you can protect yourself WHILE you are learning how not to repeat the past and grow...
I'm thinking of you...
sunny10
Posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 13:48:43
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by Shortelise on February 18, 2005, at 13:22:21
does reading all of this thread help you to know that you are not alone in this?
Plenty of us are plagued by this same issue.
I hope you realize that the tangent your thread has taken is all very much an answer to your first thread...
do you feel a little less alone? At least here on babble?
I hope so,
sunny10
Posted by littleone on February 18, 2005, at 17:59:46
In reply to Emotional Abandonment, posted by daisym on February 17, 2005, at 0:45:03
Daisy, thank you for sharing, gave me some stuff to consider.
Abandonment came up for me for the first time just the other day. I was cranky with my T because in a prior session he had tried to dig into a very upsetting topic for me literally as he was about to stand up and finish the session. I was an absolute wreck when I left.
When this was raised with him at our next session, I was saying "you raised that just as you were about to leave". He talked about this and said how most people would consider that I was the one leaving. He doesn't go anywhere. I get what he's saying, but for me, he's the one leaving. I'd sit in there all day if I could.
Besides that, I haven't really delved into this aspect much. Although I'm sure it is a buried issue for me.
I suspect that I'm so detached with people because I fully expect to be abandoned. I don't know if I have a fear of it as such. It's just something I know will happen so by staying detached I'm protecting myself from the inevitable.
Also, I must say that I am just flabbergastered by how much you remember from your sessions. You could almost do a total playback. I'm flat out remembering the main point discussed. It astounds me.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:12:43
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by messadivoce on February 17, 2005, at 1:31:56
I've been following your saga and I'm truly crushed for you. I wish I knew how to help. I hear what you are saying about not knowing what life will throw at you...God knows I never say anything more, "well, it could be worse..."
Hang in there. Thanks for the support.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:15:21
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by partlycloudy on February 17, 2005, at 7:19:43
I hope you have success with rewriting your script. It is hard to hear those old messages over and over again.
The more I read about parental emotional availability, the more I worry about what my own kids might feel later. They seem sort of well adjusted now, but who knows? Espcecially the youngest one. Amazing what our parents did to us, isn't it?
I hope you straighten things out with your therapist soon. I'd be frustrated too.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:18:52
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment, posted by Tabitha on February 17, 2005, at 10:23:24
I hadn't thought of adding a third voice to the dialog. It might be interesting. I can identify my gate keeper when she shows up, mostly because all the "should and shouldn'ts" flood back.
I think I'm still trying to believe that I should soothe the younger parts of me. I think "she" is/was unloveable and I'm not ready to give up this concept yet. I need a reason for all the abuse, even while I know there may not really be one. Does that make sense?
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:23:11
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment, posted by sunny10 on February 17, 2005, at 11:46:29
I'll definitely keep you posted. I hope I learn fast.
At least I feel like I cycle through it faster and like you I can talk to myself about why what I'm feeling is not logical. And I tell my therapist all of it, (well, almost) every scary thought about him leaving, changing, getting sick of this, getting mad...all of it. I just can't seem to keep it to myself anymore. He accepts it all and always tells me he is glad I brought it up because otherwise it is another secret I'm keeping and things get really big when they aren't brought out into the open.
I hope you find someone to work with soon. It is a lonely journey. I'm glad you have us though.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:25:10
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by judy1 on February 17, 2005, at 14:46:28
Thank you for sharing your experiences, Judy. Sounds like a tough road.
It is clear that being terminated is hard and painful. I'm glad you recognize your own resilence and feel so strong. Nice to know there is hope for the rest of us.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:29:59
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by Aphrodite on February 17, 2005, at 14:57:16
I'm glad I'm not the only one who wants to shout
"I shouldn't have said that!!" It is a weird feeling to want to take it all back and declare "nope, that never happened. Sorry, guess I was just hallucinating, or something." I've actually read where people do this.Having someone know so much about you is very scary. My therapist often says that relationships are living things and as such need care and attention. And they change and evolve over time. So right now it might feel scary as we build the relationship, but at a later time it might feel good to have someone know you so well. I hope he is right.
Nice to have friends who completely understand the fears. Thanks for being here.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:43:43
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment (long) » daisym, posted by LG04 on February 18, 2005, at 2:41:52
Thank you for writing all of that for me. I've read it several times and I nod my head and say, "yes, said that. Yup, that too." It felt so good to see myself reflected so completely and to see your positive outcome. I know it took a long while to write it all down but it means a lot to me.
I'm glad you found a therapist who could hold you and go through all of this with you. It is really hard to understand why anyone would allow you to tell them all of the awful details and want to feel the feelings with you, but it feels so essential...and each twist and turn brings new fears and new exposure. I feel just like you described, "is this the thing that will change your mind about me? OR this...or this...?"
I had one of those adult to adult conversation with him on Friday. I said, "isn't it hard to listen to all of this?" He said, "yes, sometimes. But only because I know how much pain you were in and are still in. Isn't it hard for you too?" He went on to say that he works hard to keep his emotional capacity healthy and sometimes that is easier to do with some clients than with others. But if he was closing down, or needed a break, he strongly suspected that I would sense it before he did, given my radar.
I'm not there yet about vacations. I'm so impressed with your ability to not see it as an abandonment and to keep your fears in check as to her returning. I told my therapist that I recognized that he needed vacations to recoup and stay strong for me. But that it still wasn't OK with me that he went away...:)
Thank you for your belief that I will find the peace you have. I get it for a few days at a time now, so perhaps it is coming.
Take good care.
Daisy
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:48:31
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment - might trigger, posted by vwoolf on February 18, 2005, at 5:36:29
(((vwoolf)))
Your situation sounds so frightening. I hope it gets better soon.
I cried for my mother on Thursday. Surprised me a lot. I would not ever wish to talk to her about this, nor do I go to her for emotional comfort much. She is a great lady and a huge problem solver. But, she doesn't "do" feelings nor tears. So I'm sure that this longing for her was very old and very young.
I'm glad you can tell your therapist what is happening. I'm keeping you in my prayers.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:55:41
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by littleone on February 18, 2005, at 17:59:46
Ah -- the memory thing. I've always been good at visual replay. I think it is why I got such good grades. Sometimes I can't reconstruct sessions, but usually I try to journal them before they get distorted in my brain. For example, he said, "it is OK to rest from all of this on the weekends." Two days later I had it twisted to, "I wish you would give it a rest over the weekend (ie, don't call me)" But, I went back and reread my journal and nope, that is not what he said. It also helps that I go a lot, I think.
I think for a long time I held myself emotinally apart from most people, except maybe my children and my siblings. I didn't even really recognize I did this until I entered therapy. I was available to help them, but I didn't trust anyone with my emotional stuff. I think you got it right, we almost expect to be abandoned at some point.
It is interesting that you describe your therapist as leaving when you are the one who physically leaves his office. It should be an interesting thing to explore.
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 18:59:28
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment, Daisy, posted by sunny10 on February 18, 2005, at 13:48:43
Yes, reading through all of this does help. I wish there was another answer besides time and repeated reassurance. But of course, I've been asking for my therapist to use his magic wand all along, I hate how long it all takes. (darn overachieving personality)
Amazing the spectrum of distress that can be caused by attachment failures, isn't it?
Posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 19:17:17
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by Shortelise on February 18, 2005, at 13:22:21
I could have written what you wrote about crying. How about these lines:
"Crying never solves anything."
"I'll give you something to cry about!"
"Tears are weak and girly. Don't use them to manipulate people into feeling sorry for you."I learned a long time ago not to cry. I think that is why when I cry my therapist doesn't want me to wipe away the tears, he always says "leave them, it's OK for me to see them." We've been talking about tears a lot lately. Like how is it possible for one person to have so many?!
I'm with you on your description of limpet-like behavior and running away. I freeze up too, not doing either thing. I like the flight or fight response analogy. I guess my fight response this time is stronger than my flight. I haven't left yet, at least. I do trust him. I just don't trust myself to keep it altogether and to know when enough is enough. I think I test a lot...I poke and prod and ask and question and read and research and go back to poking again.
After all, isn't this a set up to get hurt? We learn to trust and the goal is to eventually not have this trusted person in our life anymore. I've been left enough, thanks. He completely acknowledges this aspect of therapy but tells me he's available as long as I need him, years and years even. *sigh* I guess I shouldn't think about that part yet.
Mostly it is my fear that my life is so complicated that even the most experienced therapist would say, "geez, what a mess. I don't think I can help you much. You look like you are doing pretty well anyway." My therapist know just how clingy and needy I can get, and so far he has tolerated it just fine.
Thanks for the nice words about insight. Sometimes I think I'm just feeling my way in the dark.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 20, 2005, at 7:09:29
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » daisym, posted by partlycloudy on February 17, 2005, at 7:19:43
Oh golly, PC. Our stories are very similar. It took me a long time and months of therapy to decide I needed to deal with my mom as she is and stop trying to get her to be what she isn't. Of course I still slip now and then when I am needy or stressed.
And I think I have a copy of that tape. :(
I hope your efforts at re-recording it are successful!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 20, 2005, at 7:13:10
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment (long) » daisym, posted by LG04 on February 18, 2005, at 2:41:52
Thanks for sharing that, LG04. It's good to hear you are doing well.
Take care,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 20, 2005, at 7:21:41
In reply to Re: Emotional Abandonment » Shortelise, posted by daisym on February 19, 2005, at 19:17:17
Daisy,
Sorry I am late to this thread. I was thinking about abandonment myself recently. I always have to pull out my Palm and verify that we are scheduled for the next week at the same time. It's always been that day and time...for months, now. He even tells me he is putting it in his schedule through March or something. But I have to check. I used to blame it on faulty memory, but lately I realized that I just needed the reasurrance that he'll be there when I come.Yuck. That's a little worry. I can't imagine the intensity of what you are describing. I'm glad your T is reassuring.
I also think it's interesting what you and someone else on this thread said about sensing stuff based on pauses, comments, etc. I bet you are very good at reading people, due to your experiences. That probably is helpful and difficult at the same time.
Warmly,
gg
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