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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Pfinstegg on January 26, 2005, at 18:04:56
All this time, I have been working hard in therapy, always trying to say whatever came to mind- no matter how embarrassing. But I wasn't really aware that I never said anything that I didn't know about beforehand- until the last few months. Suddenly, I am saying things I had no idea I was going to say, even a split-second beforehand. Things that simply stunned me! Things that amaze me even months afterward. It's happening more and more often, and my analyst gently pointed out to me that this IS my unconscious speaking! I, too, actually HAVE one! A lot of the things which come out- well, probably all- are implicit memories of childhood abuse and all the painful feelings associated with it. These memories haven't yet become part of my collection of regular memories, and perhaps they never will. They are from a different part of me, which the adult me has had to struggle to accept and listen to. They're implicit, rather than explicit. But, as I'm doing this, I'm starting to feel a lot better-freer, less anxious, more confident, not depressed. The art therapy is a huge help with this process, as one can easily express these implicit memories in a drawing- they just seem to be ready to pour out onto the paper- which seems a safe place for them. When I speak about them, I have to keep saying that , even though they're coming to mind, I'm not sure they are really true. With art therapy, you can just let it happen.
I just thought I'd say that I never really knew that I had an *unconscious*, myself, until now, even though I've read about it a LOT. I was sort of like a person still insisting that the earth was flat, even after all the evidence was in!
Posted by Dinah on January 26, 2005, at 18:13:54
In reply to Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind!, posted by Pfinstegg on January 26, 2005, at 18:04:56
Congratulations!!
I am really and truly impressed. I'm dreadful at saying things I haven't talked about first, if only to myself. I managed to do it yesterday, disbelieved the content of what I said, and promptly became incapacitated for hours from the stress of the whole experience.
I'm not sure I'm ready to try it again soon.
That you can do it on a regular basis is a real testament to the groundwork you've laid.
Posted by 64bowtie on January 26, 2005, at 19:16:24
In reply to Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind!, posted by Pfinstegg on January 26, 2005, at 18:04:56
I need to dust off my article, "Concert of the Mind" which argues that, "If the mind is our source of thought, when was the last time you remember your 'unconscious mind' having an 'unconscious thought'? ...and how did you recognize it?"
Because Freud didn't have the benefit of this new-fangled Neuroanatomy and Neurophysiology to fall back onto, he did the best he could, I guess. We have four extra senses that have cortical centers in the brain that provide unique images to our big picture of us and our life around us. These always operate in the background, impacting our total picture, moving us this way and that, and are very powerful in their delivery, leaving Freud guessing, in his time, at their phantom nature.
Today, our picture is much clearer. We have nine active senses, not just the five our grammar school teachers taught us about. With internal permission to update your information base, perhaps you can see this background awareness as 'sub-conscious', but never 'unconscious'! 'Unconscious' means no consciousness, background or foreground, means dead, according to to a big new half of the consciousness contoversy! Guess which side I'm on.....?.!
Rod
Posted by fallsfall on January 26, 2005, at 20:10:43
In reply to Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind!, posted by Pfinstegg on January 26, 2005, at 18:04:56
Until a short time ago (6 months?) I "believed" in the concept of the unconscious and understood the theory of how it worked. But somehow I also believed that *I* had no unconscious motivations. Everyone else in the world did, but not me. When I think back on it, it is kind of hard to see how I could have believed that, but I honestly did.
I don't think I am at the point of my unconscious speaking (I'm barely recognizing when it is acting...), so I'm very impressed with you!
I guess we are more complex than we realize.
I loved your subject line!!!
Posted by Pfinstegg on January 27, 2005, at 0:00:49
In reply to Re: Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind! » Pfinstegg, posted by fallsfall on January 26, 2005, at 20:10:43
I didn't mean to give the impression that it happens all the time- omly sometimes- and always when I least expect it. I find it very exhausting and scary, too, Dinah. It feels as though I'm just releasing a little steam from a pressure cooker, and that there's an awful lot left. The art therapy, which I had today, helps a LOT with this process, because you can draw without any planning, just seeing what takes shape on the paper. It's as though all ones' fears, nightmares and traumas find their way right onto the paper, I am in awe, now, at what comes from my mind, and how little I really know about myself; before, I thought I "knew it all". It's been 12 hours since the art therapy was over, and I still am so exhausted that I can't seem to make it into the bathroom to wash my face and brush my teeth!
Falls, it sounds like we are on the same journey, but Bowtie, we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree...
Posted by 64bowtie on January 27, 2005, at 12:50:03
In reply to Re: Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind!, posted by Pfinstegg on January 27, 2005, at 0:00:49
> I find it very exhausting and scary, too,
>and
> It's been 12 hours since the art therapy was over, and I still am so exhausted that I can't seem to make it into the bathroom to wash my face and brush my teeth!
><<< The unknown can be very scary... and internal conflicts telling your mind that you are always wrong and 'someone' else is always right, except there are many other 'someones'... can all be very exhausting since you are running as fast as you can to keep up......! I know! I've been there!
> The art therapy, which I had today, helps a LOT with this process, because you can draw without any planning, just seeing what takes shape on the paper. It's as though all ones' fears, nightmares and traumas find their way right onto the paper, I am in awe, now, at what comes from my mind, and how little I really know about myself; before, I thought I "knew it all".
><<< Then, if this is true, that something deep inside you is trying to come out, why dismiss my new information I have gathered and am passing on freely, by saying we must disagree? I agree fully with what you are saying.
Sometimes things that defy explanation arrive at awareness. In your art-work, something from inside you arrives at your awareness, and ends up as your work of art. All I add is, "Yep! That's the collection of input from all your senses being manifest as one work of art, today. Tomorrow it will be all different, maybe, sorta, or doesn't have to be! We haven't been in tomorrow yet."
Your propriaceptive sense moves your hands over your artwork to where its "muscle memory" says would be best, while your balance (vestibular sense) provides comfort by recognizing the harmony in your art. Your gut (visceral sense) decides approval/disapproval of any changes and appropriateness of the features, while your vagus nerve is monitoring wellness (you don't have the flu, do you?). Your other five known foreground senses also have input to the creative process, your sense of sight being the most powerful and profound of all your senses.
> Bowtie, we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree...
><<< I'm glad you're here... I choose not to disagree with you, so I see the point of agreeing to disagree remaining moot, for me at least.
A good friend passed on to me 19 years ago, "Hard work, pays off!!!" I hope my successes pay honor to his motto!
Rod
Posted by Shortelise on January 27, 2005, at 13:10:55
In reply to Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind!, posted by Pfinstegg on January 26, 2005, at 18:04:56
I know the subject matter is harsh, but your post made me smile. I am just so glad for you - what you describe is so ... cool!
ShortE
Posted by Pfinstegg on January 27, 2005, at 15:00:11
In reply to Re: Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind! » Pfinstegg, posted by Shortelise on January 27, 2005, at 13:10:55
Thank you ShortE! I just love it when the word "cool" gets anywhere near me- it usually doesn't. I think what's happening is that I'm beginning to see the power of psychoanalysis to open up these truly unconscious areas - if one can find a way to keep at it long enough.
Posted by daisym on January 27, 2005, at 21:13:38
In reply to Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind!, posted by Pfinstegg on January 26, 2005, at 18:04:56
I wonder what my anger would look like in art form? I'm just beginning to touch that place where there is outrage and anger. And it scares me. I begin to describe it in therapy and I force myself to be honest and before I know it, I've circled around back to the same spot. My therapist says I talk myself out of being angry. But when I let go, I surprise myself with what comes out. But it is so hard to let go.
I'm reminded often these days of your younger self telling your therapist that she would cut off his penis. Such brutal honesty. I've identified that there is a growing fear in me about being taken advantage of in this hugely vulnerable state, and I've told him, but I can't get concrete with it yet. He wants me to tell him what I imagine could happen but I just can't have that conversation. It is still more an "unconscious" fear...but very real.
You are doing such hard work. I'm so glad you've found the art to be helpful. And it does sound exhausting. Are you still keeping at it 5 times a week? Do you ever wonder how long it is going to take for all of the unconscious unhappiness to dissipate? I need a crystal ball...
Thank you for continuing to share your journey.
Posted by Pfinstegg on January 27, 2005, at 22:33:58
In reply to Re: Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind! » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on January 27, 2005, at 21:13:38
Hi Daisy - always good to hear from you. It's so hard to be honest with these powerful feelings- most of all the fear and rage, but also the sadness of having something so awful happen. I am still going five days a week (entire salary!); he pretty much works just with PTSD and abuse, and really likes to see people every day if it's humanly possible. There is something wonderful about being able to go every day - it really does help me take more chances with being more open and unguarded. No matter how stressful a session is, he's right there the next day, always looking like he's glad to see me, and ready to listen to everything. I'm so dependent, too, as well as being very insecurely attached, so every day is just right!
I've gone just about two years, and really have only begun to notice that I'm getting better in the last few months. He has told me that he expects that I'll probably need to come daily for at least a total of five years, maybe more. Then, I can come whenever I feel I need to. With him, apparently nobody needs to face a permanent termination. I think that's so encouraging; he must have enough experience and confidence in what he does that he knows the time can come when his patients can gradually move out on their own without a lot of stress or loss.
The art therapy is totally amazing- genuinely unconscious things keep getting onto the paper, clay, etc. There are anatomically correct dolls if I want to use them (haven't yet). Yesterday, we spent some time playing Winnicot's "squiggle" game, because she wanted to do something interactive with me- to help me not feel so alone with everything which is coming up. But it's so intense, once every two weeks is about as much as I can handle.
Posted by littleone on January 30, 2005, at 20:48:27
In reply to Re: Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind!, posted by Pfinstegg on January 27, 2005, at 22:33:58
Thank you for sharing Pfinstegg. I love hearing yours and other's experiences.
Isn't it wonderful when the depression tide just starts to turn. That's happened to me lately. I wouldn't say I feel good. More like I don't feel bad. Which doesn't really sound like much, but is a lot when you consider how bad *bad* really is.
Hope things continue to improve for you.
Posted by Pfinstegg on January 30, 2005, at 21:44:09
In reply to Re: Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind! » Pfinstegg, posted by littleone on January 30, 2005, at 20:48:27
It's the same for me, too- not feeling exactly great, but no longer feeling really awful. It's given me a lot of respect for what therapy can accomplish, and also of the power of a good relationship with one's therapist. Thanks so much for your good wishes -I wish the same to you!
Posted by littleone on January 30, 2005, at 22:56:38
In reply to Re: Who me? I don't have an *unconscious* mind! » littleone, posted by Pfinstegg on January 30, 2005, at 21:44:09
> It's given me a lot of respect for what therapy can accomplish, and also of the power of a good relationship with one's therapist.
This bit drives me crazy. I keep wanting to put my finger on the exact moment that things started to turn. What exactly made them turn? Was it when my T said x? Was it from playing cards? I want to know so that if things go downhill again, I'll know exactly what to do to turn it all around.
But of course, there is no exact answer. It's the overall therapy and the overall relationship.
And that kind of makes me think blah. My defenses have worked so hard to keep him barracaded out. And to think that the relationship actually helps drives me crazy. I've spent my life running away from relationships.
This is the end of the thread.
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