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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Medusa on April 21, 2004, at 15:45:50
I have a theory that in order to get consistent, attentive, striving-for-the-best treatment from therapists, one has to keep a figurative rope around their necks. One end tied to something stable, then wrapped around their neck, and the other end in your hand.
Apparently I haven't kept the rope tight enough. Maybe I was counting on her observation team to do that. Oops. And maybe she got a little cocky - I've had some great successes so far in this therapy - and didn't prepare or something, because she wasted a good part of the first half of the session on an analogy that turned out to be not what she meant anyway. I told her this was really frustrating and that this was part of what I'd meant by the power imbalance - I trust her to know what she's talking about, and I play along when I don't understand the point of an exercise or series of questions, and I expect bloody well that it go somewhere sensible.
She tried another angle, and that was something we'd clarified in the previous session. (I'm on a two-week spacing.) I flipped back in my notes and said, yep, we already worked that out.
Then when she asked what I wanted to work on, I said what (part of my homework), and she started on a different part of my homework. So I really let her have it. She said she was sorry I'd 'misunderstood' (huh?) but then we worked on what I wanted to, and her voice seemed a little shaky but we got some good stuff done.
At the end, she asked me how I felt, and I said I was frustrated with the time wasting, and would like to know how we could avoid that in the future. She said she could ask at the beginning what I wanted to work on. Good. And the faulty analogies that aren't what she meant to say? She said I should say when an image doesn't work for me. Well, I *had* said! Then she'd taken a long break to discuss this with the observation team, and come back and given a long explanation for why I was right. (???!) She said, well, that was her fault for not explaining properly. So I asked how we could avoid that. She repeated that we could work out at the beginning what I wanted to spend time on. HUH?! So I said, great, I'm glad we have that straight, but I want to know about how to avoid wasting time on analogies that aren't really what she means to say and I wasn't yet happy with her answers about that. She said she'd go over that in supervision.
I also told her that I have a long, not-cheap commute to get to the therapy sessions, and that it's going to be more expensive from now on because I'm moving and the new train connection costs a lot more. And that I work really hard on the homework, and do my best to put it in the best grammar/syntax possible (not my native language) and that I understand that she just wants to complete her training, but that I expect to benefit from this, too.
I guess I kind of scared myself by letting her have it so hard - and it's all on video! I can imagine that it'll be reviewed a few times ... great, we get to see Medusa's snakes writhing!
Posted by shadows721 on April 21, 2004, at 18:04:00
In reply to I yelled at my therapist, posted by Medusa on April 21, 2004, at 15:45:50
Wow, you are experiencing some major resentment issues in your t. It appears to me that you feel this therapy is not benefiting you and is a waste of your time. Your analogy with the rope sounds like major control issues surrounding therapy. Therapy should not go into a power struggle. You should direct the therapy. This therapist seems unexperienced and doesn't know how to allow therapy move in your direction. Therefore, you aren't feeling in control.
I think you are angry, because you feel that she isn't allowing you to direct the therapy. This is a must for you to have any benefit. Also, it looks like you are feeling that your hard work with your homework isn't being recognized.
You are very upset about the lack of direction and the nonvalidation of your work put into this therapy. There is a lot of misunderstandings in this therapy session. I am confused as to what she is really trying to do with you. To put it plainly, you aren't feeling like your needs are being met with this therapist. She may not be able to meet your needs due to her inexperience.
A therapist and the client have to really work together mutally. This therapist may not be the one for you. I went through 3 therapist, before I got one that I could not feel controlled by in sessions.
Posted by pegasus on April 21, 2004, at 18:15:04
In reply to I yelled at my therapist, posted by Medusa on April 21, 2004, at 15:45:50
Medusa, everything that you said sounds so reasonable. I know it can be embarrassing to get angry like that, but maybe it'll be helpful in the long run. At any rate, I think it's really good that you let her know how you were feeling. I love the image of your snakes writhing! I bet when she reviews the video, she'll learn a lot about what not to do in the future! I bet she'll be paying much more attention her own stumbling around than about the way you got mad.
pegasus
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2004, at 23:32:38
In reply to I yelled at my therapist, posted by Medusa on April 21, 2004, at 15:45:50
Drat. I thought I had posted a reply to you. I guess it's lost in cyberspace.
Is this the same therapist you usually see? I'm not clear on the team dynamics. Is the face to face therapist always the same?
If so, was this the first session where she was unhelpful? I know my therapist has sessions where I feel like asking for a refund. But I suspect some of my own work days are like that too. :( Fortunately my employer doesn't refuse to pay me. Hopefully they balance off with days when he (and I) more than earn our keep.
If not, can you ask for another team member to be your face to face therapist?
Posted by Medusa on April 21, 2004, at 23:47:23
In reply to Re: I yelled at my therapist, posted by shadows721 on April 21, 2004, at 18:04:00
Posted by Medusa on April 22, 2004, at 0:09:57
In reply to Re: I yelled at my therapist » Medusa, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2004, at 23:32:38
> Drat. I thought I had posted a reply to you. I guess it's lost in cyberspace.
>Bummer.
> Is this the same therapist you usually see?Yeah, the face-to-face therapist is always the same. I could go into the observation room and say hi to the others if I wanted, but I've never felt like it. So maybe one of them works days in the shop where I buy my underwear or something, and I wouldn't know it.
> If so, was this the first session where she was unhelpful?
>No, there have been a couple of others. Once, she gave me a lecture that was pretty much verbatim the stupid broken records playing in my own head. NOT helpful.
>But I suspect some of my own work days are like that too. :(
>This is a little different, I think. Sure, shrinks work for more than just our sessions, but I have one session every two weeks, and I need it to be prime time.
> If not, can you ask for another team member to be your face to face therapist?
>It's a training program, and although I'm sure I could work out a switch, I'm not sure it makes sense. My rope-around-the-neck theory has worked pretty well so far. I really don't think she wants to be yelled at again. Also, the face-to-face therapist wears an earpiece and gets feedback and direction from the team, and this wouldn't change much with a different face.
I suspect that my therapist is just overtaxed by my expectations. For one, she spends a lot more time on my case (supervision, reviewing videos) than in my sessions, but I only hear what she tells me during the session. I don't get the benefit of whatever insights she had in the shower unless she articulates them for me. I can't read her thoughts, and I expect her to state them clearly. Further, I think faster than she does. One technique of this therapy approach is for the therapist to be slower than the patient, to be sure that the patient's change is stable and that the patient is driving the growth. But in a lot of situations, I really do think faster than she does.
A friend's older sister is doing a psych PhD in a program that's geared to this approach, and she said that it sounds like my therapist has already had far more than enough "success" in my case to do a great write-up for her dossier. She (friend's sister) was a management consultant in her first career, and says that therapists who don't have this kind of world-work exposure bring a completely different ("sheltered" was one of her words) perspective to the patient's experiences. I don't think that this therapist is necessarily jealous of me, but good grief, I'm living a very different life than she is living, and she's openly stated that she hasn't had many of the experiences I've had. (Living outside of home country, academic opportunities, social stuff.)
I'm really bothered by the therapist's (and the team's) denial that there's a power imbalance. Until now, they've mostly determined the subject matter. Which I can understand - clearly, my mother issues take priority to my sister-in-law issues, but often I'd have preferred to scream about my SIL. Further, no matter how many field articles and texts I read, I have no idea where some of their questions are going, and I mostly just go along and give it a shot. I know I'm an arrogant snot, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't make any difference to me that I'm out here living and facing new challenges and blazing new paths, and most shrinks I've seen are holed up in their offices in provincial areas, hoping at most to write a book that'll make them stand out in their field and get them invited to present at a conference in the capital city.
Anyway.
Posted by Medusa on April 22, 2004, at 0:14:51
In reply to Re: I yelled at my therapist, posted by pegasus on April 21, 2004, at 18:15:04
> I bet she'll be paying much more attention her own stumbling around than about the way you got mad.
>Pegasus, interesting insight. Thanks for reminding me of the therapist's most probable focus.
It was a huge step to tell her how I felt. I also said that in this therapy, I'd realized that truly only I can set forth and defend my own interests. Meaning that they certainly haven't set my interests as the highest priority. Their approach is highly rigid. I chose it for that - it makes sense to me in fundamental ways. But the general condescension of therapists irks me.
Posted by shadows721 on April 22, 2004, at 7:58:10
In reply to wow, someone to tell me how I feel. thaaaanks (nm) » shadows721, posted by Medusa on April 21, 2004, at 23:47:23
Okay, I know you may not agree with me, but I am going to try one more time. I was trying to validate you in the 1st post and support you. But, I do feel I hit a note, because one of your snakes bit back.
It's all about your defenses. Those snakes are a major defense. It's liken that to a mask. If I read your post totally wrong, then what is behind your anger? What are you so angry about with this t? Are you angry, because she isn't giving you what you need or is it she is treating to fast on your defenses and you think she can't handle those snakes? What is it that you need to feel safe in t? Who is hiding behind the mask of snakes?
Remember, this is for you.
Shadows
Posted by fallsfall on April 22, 2004, at 8:15:15
In reply to I yelled at my therapist, posted by Medusa on April 21, 2004, at 15:45:50
Medusa,
I'm sure that your therapist has made some mistakes - she's in training, right? But I think that you attribute ALL of her mistakes, and EVERYTHING that you don't like about therapy to her inexperience. I'm not sure that is a valid assumption.
Some of the things that you complain about are things that I've complained about with my therapist (who is very good 15+ years experience). Particularly the going on and on in an unhelpful direction. That drives me crazy.
You are obviously very bright. They say that intellegence is an advantage in therapy - but I think there are distinct disadvantages. I, also, want to know why he asks the questions he does. And I read a *lot* and try to figure out his angle. There are times I think faster than he does (though he really is smart - these times are probably just because I've done more prior thinking about the subject matter), and I get impatient.
I am learning (this is my 9th year in therapy, though only my 9th month with this therapist) that the less I think about *how* therapy is being done, and the more I just *experience* it the more I learn. This means *not* preparing long lists of things to talk about. This means *not* rehearsing the entire therapy session. This means that the session can go in directions that I wasn't planning (and am not prepared for) - and sometimes this drives me crazy. Particularly when there are things I REALLY want to talk about. But even when he does this to me, in almost all cases, the direction he wants to go in is at least as important as the one I wanted to go in.
I know that you want her to be "on" for each of your sessions, but this really isn't different than Dinah's situation. Your therapist is human. And there are times when her failures and humanness are the elements of therapy that will teach things to you. (There is a thread on this http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040409/msgs/337151.html)
I find that the magnitude of your anger is really large - and I find that with myself, when my emotions are out of proportion to the situation that I am feeling "old" emotions. That the current situation is bringing up unconscious memories of things that happened long ago. Sometimes it is really hard to connect the present and the past, but I have found it valuable.
I guess that my point is that it might be worth being "open to the possibility" (my therapist's favorite phrase) that your anger may be caused more by your issues than by her inexperience. If it is, then this is a really good opportunity to explore this with her. I'm not asking you to agree with me that this is your issue and not hers - just that you consider that it might be possible.
Good luck.
Posted by shadows721 on April 22, 2004, at 8:16:41
In reply to I yelled at my therapist, posted by Medusa on April 21, 2004, at 15:45:50
Are the ropes representing the snakes too?
Shadows721
Posted by Medusa on April 22, 2004, at 23:33:37
In reply to Re: I yelled at my therapist » Medusa, posted by fallsfall on April 22, 2004, at 8:15:15
> I guess that my point is that it might be worth being "open to the possibility" (my therapist's favorite phrase) that your anger may be caused more by your issues than by her inexperience.
>
>You're 100% right on this. A lot of my fury is about her refusal to deal with the power imbalance openly. And with the baloney excuses she's given me for misunderstandings in the past.
Further, I'm pretty cynical about therapists' motivations for being therapists, and about their motivations for providing a given standard of care. That, in turn, could be about something else. I want to grow to MY personal best, not to a level that's 'great' in comparison to the shrink's average client.
Posted by noa on April 23, 2004, at 11:29:27
In reply to I yelled at my therapist, posted by Medusa on April 21, 2004, at 15:45:50
I wonder if because she is always thinking about the training aspect of things, always aware that she is being observed and critiqued, maybe she is nervous about accomplishing certain things that aren't really about the therapy or you and your needs. Like she isn't fully present with you the way therapists should be, cuz she is always mindful of the people behind the mirror (or closed circuit tv or whatever).
Good for you for being assertive.
This is the end of the thread.
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