![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lonelygirl on March 22, 2004, at 18:52:16
As I've probably repeated in almost every post, my story is that I got in trouble at school and was forced to go to counseling against my will, but then I finished the mandatory number of sessions and ended up "in love" with the psychologist and I keep going back.
The problem is that I am feeling more and more attached to him, and I hate it, but the only way to stop it is to stop seeing him, which I also can't do because I am so attached to him in the first place. On the one hand, I hate the attachment, but on the other hand, I hate the thought of not being able to see him any more.
I had decided, before the last mandatory session, that I was not going to come back any more. I told him this, and he said that he liked working with me and would miss my sense of humor and he wanted me to know his door was always open (well, as long as I called in advance to make an appointment!), but you know you can never REALLY tell (it's not like he could just say, "Yes! Thank God it's over and I'll never have to see your fat, ugly face again!"). Then he said that "some of [his] clients" make a follow-up appointment 2 or 3 weeks later, but it's up to me. I'm not sure what that meant -- he didn't come right out and directly suggest it for me -- did he feel an obligation to give me that option even though he didn't want to, or was he trying to put the option out there gently without pushing too hard? (I have many more thoughts and indications on that, which I would be happy to elaborate on if I thought anyone wanted to know, but I am already straying way too far from my point...) I agreed to that and made the appointment, which would have been my last, but then I had another "crisis" come up and decided to come back AGAIN, and what do you know, I am still going.
Anyway, I like him because he is so nice to me, and that is the reason for the attachment. I don't have any real relationships (neither platonic nor romantic, and I don't even have very close relationships with my family, who live hundreds of miles away right now), and it is simply addicting to have someone be so nice to me. The one hour a week I converse with him is probably more than the total time I converse with everyone else in the world (not counting online, ha ha).
One thing I have considered is, in a way, sabotaging my relationship with him by getting him to say something that makes me dislike him so that I can stop seeing him without missing him. I had 2 ideas for doing this:
1. Explain my dilemma (that I am getting too addicted to him being nice to me) and ask him to be mean to me so that I can break the attachment and not feel compelled to come back. The problems with this approach are that he may be unwilling to do it, and that if he does, it would hurt a lot (but then again, that's what I want).
2. There is a certain political issue that I feel very strongly about, and I am highly involved in this issue. He knows this. I strongly suspect that he disagrees with me on the issue, because when I mentioned that I was involved with it, he did not comment. Then he said that I appeared to be "withdrawing" and he wanted to know what "happened." I said that it is a controversial issue and I don't know how he feels about it, so there is some tension in bringing it up. He still did not say whether or not he agreed with me; he basically changed the subject to my "withdrawing." There are some other clues that he probably disagrees with me about the issue, which I am generally pretty good at picking up, since I deal with this issue a lot. So, my point about this is that I could ask him, point blank, what he thinks about the issue. As I said, I feel very strongly about it, and when I find out that someone is on the opposite side, I automatically view that person differently. For example, I would never marry someone who disagreed with me on the issue, and I might not even be willing to date someone who disagreed (although beggars can't be choosers!). So although I would not get angry with him or argue about it, if he said he disagreed on that issue, I would feel a lot less attached. The problems with this are, again, he might refuse to tell me (although I think I could get him to say if I persisted enough), and also that it could actually backfire if he surprises me by saying that he DOES agree.
I do want to break the attachment, because I could swear that my mental health is worse from seeing him, but I don't know if I will be able to go through with any of these, for the exact same reason I couldn't go through with just quitting. There should be a 12-step program for quitting therapy!
Anyway, just wondering what you all think about this... Thanks in advance for any advice!
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 22, 2004, at 19:08:26
In reply to Therapist Attachment - Help, posted by lonelygirl on March 22, 2004, at 18:52:16
Hey Lonelygirl I am not so great at long posts as I have the attention span of a gnat :) but I would say he tossed that deal on seeing him every now and then ..say 2-3 weeks because he KNOWS you and knows if he insisted on one way or another you may pick it to pieces so by leaving it to YOU he shows much respect for your nature really.
On his agreeing and disagreeing on political issues and so on that is really not germane to the issue of therapy and HIS relationship with YOU. He may wisely see you want to use it as a way to distance yourself from him by either agreeing (you may think he faked it) or disagreeing (the nitwit lol) so he is very wise to stay neutral. IMO, HE WANTS TO SEE YOU but repects you enough to allow you to decide what you want to do. Attachments are GOOD all in all and one DOES grow from them I so hope and pray you read the book I reccomended to you on this subject....Attachments by Dr Tim ClintonHope this helps some
Posted by underthecs on March 22, 2004, at 21:30:56
In reply to Therapist Attachment - Help, posted by lonelygirl on March 22, 2004, at 18:52:16
> The problem is that I am feeling more and more attached to him, and I hate it, but the only way to stop it is to stop seeing him
> One thing I have considered is, in a way, sabotaging my relationship with him by getting him to say something that makes me dislike him so that I can stop seeing him without missing him.
Hi... just wanted to let you know that I've done what you're thinking of doing (a lot!), but let me tell you... it doesn't help! It may help in the short run (keeps you pissed off and gives you a reason not to go to therapy), but eventually that anger wears off and, well, you'll still probably miss him. Even more at that point. I don't really have any answers for you, as I'm going through it too... but I've been told that the only way to the other side is "through" not "around"...
Posted by Dinah on March 22, 2004, at 22:43:11
In reply to Therapist Attachment - Help, posted by lonelygirl on March 22, 2004, at 18:52:16
I used to read bad therapist stories all the time to avoid attachment. :)
But I suppose the real question is this. What do you hope to get from therapy? If you don't want anything from it, those ideas *might* work.
But if you want to learn and grow and get the most from the time you spend with your therapist, the only way to do that is with honesty.
Tell him you're afraid of being attached. Very afraid. And tell him why.
Posted by toomuchpain on March 23, 2004, at 8:40:19
In reply to Re: Therapist Attachment - Help » lonelygirl, posted by Dinah on March 22, 2004, at 22:43:11
i was very attached to my former t and he knew that and there was alot of other things involed with him and i but he terminted me due to different circumstances and it is killing me cus i was sos os sososososososososososososososo attached to him it has been like since december and all the pain is still here and i still miss him like crazy!!!!
Posted by lonelygirl on March 23, 2004, at 8:45:48
In reply to Re: Therapist Attachment - Help, posted by toomuchpain on March 23, 2004, at 8:40:19
I'm sorry :-(
That's what I am afraid of... To complicate matters, I am moving out of state in May, so no matter what, it will end then anyway. Sometimes, I cry just thinking about that, how I will NEVER see him again after May.
How come he terminated?
Posted by lonelygirl on March 23, 2004, at 9:44:49
In reply to Re: Therapist Attachment - Help » lonelygirl, posted by Fallen4myT on March 22, 2004, at 19:08:26
Well thanks, but it is more complicated than that... I have gotten a lot of conflicting indications as to how he really feels, which I am constantly trying to analyze, but what I think in the end is that he wants me to believe that he cares about me and whatnot, because that's his job, so the indications to that side are his professional side talking, while the indications that he hates me are his personal feelings inadvertently seeping through...
Also, by the way, I am seeing him once a week. The 2-3 weeks after my last mandatory session was just supposed to be a "follow-up" session, but then I started going once a week again after that.
Regarding the book you mentioned, "Attachments", I looked it up on Amazon.com and I couldn't tell if there was very much information about patient-therapist attachment. Is there? Problem is, my school's library doesn't seem to have it. I am already reading "In Session" and "Distancing", which the library does have (I am kind of disappointed in the latter, though, especially the advice directed at the patient!).
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 23, 2004, at 10:43:43
In reply to Re: Therapist Attachment - Help » Fallen4myT, posted by lonelygirl on March 23, 2004, at 9:44:49
lonelygirl I didn't suggest the other books...In SESSION WAS GREAT BTW...I suggested the one I did *because* it talks about the 4 styles of attatchment and really delves deep into each. I think its a harder book than the two you are reading..to read BUT it covers how and why one attatches the way we do. This includes pushing people away.
It is not your T's job as you said to *like* you. It IS his job to help you over unhealthy patterns. Really beg borrow or almost steal the book I think it will help you long past May. Also your T will maybe offer phone sessions, email etc... you know, till you tell him about your quandry he will not be able to show you that he JUST MIGHT CARE FOR ..YOU...You are likeable,,heck I like you. Tell him you are having problems with ending the sessions and must cause of the move and see what happens...I think I got my book at B&N but read it even if you have the library interloan it. The book makes sessions look lame because it goes more into how you as a person would find themself feeling attactched and NOT attacthed to others...Now I must go fox up..see ya on here later :)
Posted by Raindancer on March 23, 2004, at 13:52:40
In reply to Therapist Attachment - Help, posted by lonelygirl on March 22, 2004, at 18:52:16
Hello. I wanted to say that I like you and I see no reason why your T shouldn't either. He has told you things he likes about you and that he would miss your sessions - he doesn't have to say that and a good therapist wouldn't say something he doesn't mean. To be honest - to himself and to you - is part of his job. I can say this to you because I've been in a similar position myself. I suspect that a lot of the feelings you think he has about you may actually be your own feelings about yourself and not a lot to do with him. You talk more to him than you do to others and he is getting to know and appreciate the person you really are. I wonder if you dare not accept the warmth he offers you because you would then have to change some of the feelings you have about yourself and also because you fear the attachment will be too much. If you can come to trust him I feel you will both gain a great deal.
All the very best. I enjoy your posts and getting to know you. R
Posted by lonelygirl on March 23, 2004, at 15:48:49
In reply to Re: Therapist Attachment - Help » lonelygirl, posted by Fallen4myT on March 23, 2004, at 10:43:43
Ah, sorry -- I didn't mean to imply that you recommended the other two books. I was just mentioning that I was already reading a couple of books... I am about halfway through "In Session". It's pretty good, and I keep thinking, "Exactly!!!" The only problem (though maybe she will get to this in the second half) is that it just makes me even more frustrated! There are all these catch-22s.
Anyway, I was asking about "Attachments" because I wanted to know how worthwhile it would be for me, and if it's really applicable to my situation. I can always buy it from Amazon.com, but I don't usually like to buy books (if I'm only going to read it once or twice anyway, it's a much better deal to check it out from the library), so I wanted to make sure it's good before I commit to it. "Distancing" looked really good from what I saw on the Amazon.com web site, but I was pretty disappointed in it... Good thing I got it at the library instead of wasting $50 on it.
I highly doubt he would be willing to do phone sessions or e-mail. He is at the university health center, so he doesn't have that much control. He gets a certain number of clients assigned to him, and his schedule is determined to a large extent by the health center, not him. He also doesn't collect directly from the clients; he just gets a salary. Also, the health center says, "it is [our] policy not to use E-mail for communication of any kind with clients." So I am not sure if he would even be ALLOWED to do that (although that may not be completely true, because he mentioned that he gets a lot of e-mail). Finally, when I graduate in May, I will no longer be eligible to use the health center because I am not a student.
So, do you have an appointment today? Good luck... I know this is a weird request, and I hope you're not mad that I ask, but I was wondering if you would mind sending me a pic of your therapist... For some reason, I just wonder what he looks like. But I understand if you don't want to do that.
Posted by Raindancer on March 23, 2004, at 18:51:34
In reply to Re: Therapist Attachment - Help » Fallen4myT, posted by lonelygirl on March 23, 2004, at 15:48:49
Posted by gardenergirl on March 24, 2004, at 5:49:28
In reply to Re: Therapist Attachment - Help » Fallen4myT, posted by lonelygirl on March 23, 2004, at 15:48:49
Attachment is really scary and inviting at the same time, isn't it. My T just brought up the idea of termination the other day. I don't think he was suggesting it was appropriate, although I have been doing much better lately. He just wanted to know my expectations and plans for summer and for next year. I suppose I could terminate if I wanted to. But when he brought it up, of course I started to cry (and I was just on the verge of another cry-free session!) So, I feel good about feeling good and strong, but scared about leaving this relationship as it feels too important to my strength and well-being right now. Over Christmas, when I was out of town for three weeks, I got more depressed. I wonder if it was because I was not having sessions.
I am fortunate in that I can see my T over the summer and through next year if I want to and need to. After that, I will no longer be a student, so I would have to transfer or terminate. I know that the longer I go, the harder termination will be, but right now it feels right to keep going. Seems like there is more to work on.
Please take care of yourself while dealing with your own feelings. Therapy and the therapeutic relationship can be really rewarding and really difficult at the same time. Which, of course, just adds complexity!
Regards,
gg
Posted by fallsfall on March 24, 2004, at 7:45:50
In reply to Therapist Attachment - Help, posted by lonelygirl on March 22, 2004, at 18:52:16
I think that you would learn a lot if you could talk to him about how much attachment you feel, and how it scares you. It sounds like you haven't felt many attachments in your life, so it would be natural for this to feel confusing and scary. Trying to manipulate him or yourself into being angry to lessen the attachment is probably avoiding the work that you should be doing in therapy. Both of you know that therapy will end in May. I think that between now and then if you could explore with him how you do feel (and what you believe he thinks of you), and how to go through the termination phase so that you can end on a positive note, that would be incredibly important. This therapy is the one place where you can really talk about how you are feeling, and get some real feedback as well. I'm hoping you can use this time to learn about how attachments can help and can hurt and how to handle goodbyes. It is such important stuff.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 24, 2004, at 11:25:44
In reply to Re: Therapist Attachment - Help » Fallen4myT, posted by lonelygirl on March 23, 2004, at 15:48:49
Hey Lonelygirl I am just catching up and saw this..I know about the books but please borrow..somehow the one I did suggest...(I need to learn to link them ugh lol( ands a GREAT book and just because it doesnt always mention client T relationships does not make it applicable to your situation..trust me...its a good read and VERY helpful ...Now on the T pic...it's not odd at all and rather sweet you ask..I wish I could share it BUT I would feel like I was betraying him somehow and am not comfortable doing that. I guess I feel he deserves his privacy or something.
Still, I am hoping busy or not YOUR T will offer you some of those opions on enail and phone..he MAY surprise you :)
> Ah, sorry -- I didn't mean to imply that you recommended the other two books. I was just mentioning that I was already reading a couple of books... I am about halfway through "In Session". It's pretty good, and I keep thinking, "Exactly!!!" The only problem (though maybe she will get to this in the second half) is that it just makes me even more frustrated! There are all these catch-22s.
>
> Anyway, I was asking about "Attachments" because I wanted to know how worthwhile it would be for me, and if it's really applicable to my situation. I can always buy it from Amazon.com, but I don't usually like to buy books (if I'm only going to read it once or twice anyway, it's a much better deal to check it out from the library), so I wanted to make sure it's good before I commit to it. "Distancing" looked really good from what I saw on the Amazon.com web site, but I was pretty disappointed in it... Good thing I got it at the library instead of wasting $50 on it.
>
> I highly doubt he would be willing to do phone sessions or e-mail. He is at the university health center, so he doesn't have that much control. He gets a certain number of clients assigned to him, and his schedule is determined to a large extent by the health center, not him. He also doesn't collect directly from the clients; he just gets a salary. Also, the health center says, "it is [our] policy not to use E-mail for communication of any kind with clients." So I am not sure if he would even be ALLOWED to do that (although that may not be completely true, because he mentioned that he gets a lot of e-mail). Finally, when I graduate in May, I will no longer be eligible to use the health center because I am not a student.
>
> So, do you have an appointment today? Good luck... I know this is a weird request, and I hope you're not mad that I ask, but I was wondering if you would mind sending me a pic of your therapist... For some reason, I just wonder what he looks like. But I understand if you don't want to do that.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 24, 2004, at 11:27:17
In reply to Re: Therapist Attachment - Help » lonelygirl, posted by fallsfall on March 24, 2004, at 7:45:50
Much wisdom in this post :)
Posted by terrics on March 24, 2004, at 16:30:19
In reply to Therapist Attachment - Help, posted by lonelygirl on March 22, 2004, at 18:52:16
I like your sense of humor too. If you find a 12 step program for quitting therapy please let me know.
It is amazing how attached a person can get to their T.[Even if the T. is crazy like mine].
I also think that you are right about mental health being worse after therapy.
Good luck on your decisions and don't forget to share that 12 step info. lol terrics
Posted by lonelygirl on March 24, 2004, at 21:08:54
In reply to Re: Therapist Attachment - Help » lonelygirl, posted by fallsfall on March 24, 2004, at 7:45:50
He has acknowledged that "this must be really scary for you." I couldn't really say anything... I don't know, I don't like saying I am "scared" of anything. I don't really feel like I'm "scared," at least not the way I would be if in imminent physical danger or something. I think it's more like worried or upset or uncomfortable.
I think I have mentioned before that his theoretical orientation is cognitive-behavioral and interpersonal, which seems to be a lot different from some of the therapists other people here have. For example, CBT apparently doesn't really believe in transference per se. It also seems like CBT is usually shorter-term (though I'm not quite sure about this).
Basically, I'm not really sure how he is going to deal with termination, or if he even thinks it is an issue. When we were getting close to the end of my mandatory 6 sessions, he just told me the week before to think about whether I want to continue. At the last mandatory session, he asked me and I said no, and he sort of said his goodbyes, then asked if I wanted to have a follow-up in a couple of weeks, which I agreed to. Then at the follow-up, he asked me if I wanted to continue, and I couldn't really make up my mind. We were going over time and I think he was getting annoyed at my indecision, and he said that I could either make an appointment and then I could always call and cancel later, or I could not make an appointment and call and make one later if I wanted. I took the first option, but for all he knew, I could have been planning to cancel it and then I would be leaving for the last time.
Also, he is at the student health center, and I don't think they really do a lot of long-term counseling. This probably isn't something they deal with a lot. I guess my point is that I don't know how much good it would do to mention this to him, and maybe he would even get freaked out to know that it is such a big issue for me, and act like I'm weird because of it.
Posted by fallsfall on March 24, 2004, at 22:19:31
In reply to CBT, attachment, and termination » fallsfall, posted by lonelygirl on March 24, 2004, at 21:08:54
I think that all therapy orientations recognize that termination is often a big deal to people. I know that my CBT therapist certainly did.
You are clearly trying hard to understand your attachment, and to understand your feelings about ending sessions with him. If a topic is important to you, then it is good to bring it up in therapy. You could ask if he thinks that stopping in May will be different than stopping would have been after 6 sessions.
>I guess my point is that I don't know how much good it would do to mention this to him, and maybe he would even get freaked out to know that it is such a big issue for me, and act like I'm weird because of it.
When you talk to your therapist about things that are "big issues" for you, often your therapist is able to help you understand *why* it is a big issue for you and what kinds of options you have for dealing with it. I don't think he would get freaked out - actually, I don't think that he would be surprised at all. Have you ever asked him why he thinks that you keep coming? It is certainly not weird to be attached to your therapist. That *is* one of the goals of therapy, to allow us to get attached and have a positive relationship. I think that if you start talking about the attachment with him that you will learn a lot. I also think that he can help make the end easier for you.
I agree that at the student health center he probably has few "long term" patients. But I'm sure that his training included a lot about terminations and endings and goodbyes. These subjects are very difficult for lots and lots and lots of people.
Try talking about it - I promise that it will be interesting.
Posted by lonelygirl on March 25, 2004, at 22:22:33
In reply to CBT, attachment, and termination » fallsfall, posted by lonelygirl on March 24, 2004, at 21:08:54
I wonder to what extent one can fool one's therapist. The reason I am so curious about my diagnosis is that I wonder how much my psychologist has figured out. Sometimes, it almost seems like he can read my mind, but he also tells me how reserved I am.
When I initially went for my mandatory counseling, I intentionally downplayed all of my problems. I did mention that I didn't have any friends, and during the first session (after the initial consultation), he sort of latched onto that. I told him that it doesn't bother me that I don't have any friends, and I like being alone, and after that, he didn't really focus on the issue very much, except for occasions when he told me how he thought I should have an "outlet." So I thought maybe he believed me, but he has also said that he can tell I'm lonely and/or scared.
I feel kind of bad sometimes, because I sort of intentionally try to throw him off the track, because I don't know if I want him to realize how crazy I really am. But at the same time, I sort of hope that he will be able to put together the puzzle. Sometimes I wish I could just sit there and confess all to him and cry, but (1) I don't think that would be particularly productive, and (2) I honestly cannot do it. When I am sitting in that chair, I just sort of chicken out.
One time, I was complaining about something, and before he launched into his "problem-solving mode" speech, he said, "Wow. It sounds like things aren't going very well for you." And I got MAD that he said that! I said, "Yeah, well that's because we only talk about my problems. Of course it sounds like things aren't going very well because that's all we talk about!" Except, it was true! If he had, for example, tried to tell me to "look on the bright side," or that "it can't be all that bad," or something like that, I would have been mad about that too. I guess there's just no pleasing some people! I don't know if I want him to think that I am happy and not depressed or if I want him to know the depth of my despair and loneliness. I am kind of afraid if I really tell him EVERYTHING that he will want to commit me or something. He once made a metaphor about chess, and I think that was pretty accurate. We're both there trying to strategize our next move and we don't know what the other's going to do.
I am never really sure if he has me all figured out, or if he is actually completely clueless and way off. It is probably somewhere in the middle, but it could probably be either extreme, too.
Posted by Dinah on March 25, 2004, at 22:39:56
In reply to Faking Sanity, posted by lonelygirl on March 25, 2004, at 22:22:33
One of the nice things about Babble is that we can find out here that we're not as insane as we always secretly feared we were. Because we find out that other perfectly nice, charming people that we thoroughly enjoy spending time with grapple with the same issues we do. And they obviously aren't insane, so we can't be either, right?
I think you'll find with your therapist, like you'll find with Babble, that you can put away your strategems and open the real you up. And people won't run away screaming. (That's what my therapist always says. That he won't run away screaming.)
From what you've described, you aren't crazy and your therapist won't think you are. He'll just think you're isolated and hurt and angry. I've certainly been there. A lot of people have.
Why don't you try taking a chance and being yourself with your therapist? That's just what therapy is for. I learned to do that with my therapist, and he taught me to do it with others too. (With admittedly mixed results.)
Posted by lonelygirl on March 25, 2004, at 22:45:22
In reply to Re: Faking Sanity » lonelygirl, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2004, at 22:39:56
I am not so sure that I am not crazy. I feel like I am losing my mind and I don't know how much longer I can maintain any sort of illusion that I am sane.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.