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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Pandabear on February 25, 2004, at 22:51:00
In reply to Re: At the risk of a PBC » Pandabear, posted by Elle2021 on February 25, 2004, at 22:38:20
Thank you for telling me you are ok with my posts..Im not leaving for good..I just need to back off for a while..I dont want there to be any negative feelings towards me..because Im not trying to upset or hurt anyone...I too am really thankful for the advice and help that I get on this site even if I dont express it...I think it should be a given to everyone that we are all thankful for the advice that we are receiving whether or not we express it..you know? We may not agree with some of what is said but all the advice and comments I have been receiving have been of help..so YES, Im greatful. I will be back soon...:) I will probably start posting on friday..
Posted by Elle2021 on February 25, 2004, at 22:58:53
In reply to Re: At the risk of a PBC » Elle2021, posted by Pandabear on February 25, 2004, at 22:51:00
> I will be back soon...:) I will probably start posting on friday..
I look forward to then. :)
Elle
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 26, 2004, at 1:08:48
In reply to Re: At the risk of a PBC » Pandabear, posted by underthecs on February 25, 2004, at 21:16:52
> you dismiss it so cavalierly... Maybe it's the feeling I get that you're more interested in passively enjoying your status as Officially Lacking In Responsibility Due To Mental Disease Or Defect, than you are in doing anything at all about it.
>
> Racer> i think racer's post was out of line and is creating a hostile environment. please don't quit posting becuz of one person's insensitive remarks.
>
> underthecsKeeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, could you two please rephrase the above?
If you have any questions about this or comments about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways to express yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by gardenergirl on February 26, 2004, at 6:53:33
In reply to Re: At the risk of a PBC » Pandabear, posted by Elle2021 on February 25, 2004, at 22:38:20
I'm with Elle on this. I also don't always have the time or mental/emotional energy to respond to every post I would like, particulary to do individual thank you's like some are so good at. I try (sigh) but not always able. I certainly hope that would not drive someone away or offend someone.
We all have good days and bad days, and perhaps Racer needs some support as well. We all do.
So, hugs and support to all en masse.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Racer » underthecs, posted by Dr. Bob on February 26, 2004, at 1:08:48
I wrote that at a bad time, and I should have thought more before posting it. The views expressed were largely based on my own frustrations in the moment, and it was thoughtless to present them as I did.
Let me try that again, and see if I can get out what I meant a little better:
For everyone who really just wants comfort, and feels as if it's not OK to ask for comfort alone -- it is OK to ask for it. You never have to try to justify it, you never have to try to make it make sense. It's perfectly OK to say, "I don't know why it hurts so much, but I need someone to comfort me." That was actually a big part of what I was hoping to convey, which obviously got lost in my post.
The second thing, and this is partially an excuse or rationalization because of my own little dramas, is that any sort of disordered eating post is a major trigger for me. When I read one, I think of all the pain I've gone though over many long years, and how much I struggle with it now. I'm often unable to read those posts without loading them with my own baggage, and probably read more into them than they actually contain. I'm pretty sure I can't express what I wanted to express any better than I did above, but I will try.
Body image is such a vital part of all of us. It informs so much of our lives, and yet it's often quite distorted. Eating habits influence cognition and mood. Even someone who does not meet the diagnostic criteria for An Official Eating Disorder should still try to be aware of how much disordered eating habits affect your psychological state. If you suspect a problem, NOW is the time to talk about it, because it won't get better, and it won't stay the same. These things are self-replicating, and can take over your life -- often without your being aware of it.
I'm also a big believer in asking your therapist why he/she brought something like that up. Maybe it's me being suspicious, maybe it's good sense, maybe I don't know a thing about it, but a lot of times we don't recognize our own behavior and patterns as well as others do. We can learn a lot from what others tell us, but sometimes we have to ask, and sometimes we have to suspend disbelief when they try to answer.
Two final things I'd like to say, one about my own frustrations, the other just a general plea to any women on this board.
I've got a problem with anything I perceive as passive acceptance of anything, mostly on my own part, but it does trigger things for me when I hear about others doing what I perceive as passively accepting something. I also have a great fear of becoming my diagnosis, and when I read anything that sounds like, "I can't help [x], because I'm [dx]" to me, I overreact. That's apparently what I did in this case. I offer apologies to everyone I offended.
Last, for women, about weight and beauty. I was weaned on fine art, by an artist, who would point out to me the beauty in many human forms around us. Who here remembers Xena, Warrior Princess? The quite voluptous looking Lucy Lawless was at an event I attended during the run of that show. The beautiful, rounded curves so apparent on TV were nowhere to be seen. She was slender, a very lovely woman, but all those curves were the result of that old "the camera puts on ten pounds" effect. Beauty comes from a sense of confidence, in many cases, rather than bone structure alone. Thin is not beautiful, and plump can be beautiful. The only absolute I've found to date is this: women are beautiful when they live comfortably within their own skin.
The other absolute I've gleaned over the years is that the quest for thinness is harmful to many, many women. Not only those who are suffering from any sort of eating disorder, but even those lucky women who are in perfect mental health, but still worry about those few pounds they think would make them "better." It makes me both sad and angry to see that, knowing that some of them are so much more beautiful than they'll ever really know, and still suffer over something as ridiculous as a few pounds that actually make them *more* beautiful.
When I hear about young women doing anything that I perceive as falling into the trap of trying to reach unrealistic physical appearance, or eating only at night to keep their weight down, I over react. I feel a great need to step in and offer what I have learned about nutrition, healthy weight loss without overdoing, etc. I get very frustrated when I perceive that to have been dismissed, probably because it was so hard learned on my part.
So, yes, my feelings were hurt. It felt like a slap in the face. Those are my feelings, and I won't stuff them down. I am sorry that I wrote before thinking, and I am sorry that I offended so many people. I will try to go forth and sin no more.
Posted by Pandabear on February 26, 2004, at 11:35:57
In reply to At the risk of a PBC » Pandabear, posted by Racer on February 25, 2004, at 20:08:49
Racer, I just wanted to tell you that I am doing the best that I have been doing in two years. And, no I am not trying to enjoy my sickness. I dont enjoy it at all. I do want to get better, and I have been improving every day. Im the best I have been in a really long time. I dont know what your status is, but I want you to know that I hope you are getting wonderful support from your friends and this site that I have been. If my posts are annoying you then please stop reading them...I dont want to upset or offend anyone. But this issue is over with..I dont want to dwell on this anymore, and since I tend to obsess over things, Im NOT going to obsess over this, so thanks for your concern..and I hope you take care.
<><
Posted by Medusa on February 26, 2004, at 11:40:03
In reply to Therapist mentioned binge eating..., posted by Pandabear on February 24, 2004, at 20:46:19
> I have always been one that eats until I cannot eat anymore..rather than stopping when I feel full..
>Panda, what's important is self-care. "Food issues" are never about food per se ... it's about feeding yourself, taking care of You. Sometimes food is the appropriate (or best match) comfort, and that's A-OK.
If you'd like info about specific resources (a discussion list for example) based on the it's-not-about-food approach, feel free to get my e-mail address from Dinah. (sorry, I haven't set up a babble addy yet.)
Posted by Pandabear on February 26, 2004, at 11:51:52
In reply to whether it's binge eating or not ... » Pandabear, posted by Medusa on February 26, 2004, at 11:40:03
Thank you so much...You know, Im not sure at all that i have an eating disorder...Im pretty sure I dont..but, I hate saying that i do or dont because I dont know what it looks like..I have gotten many thoughts about it though from different posts..and from whats being described..I dont think I have it..Im going to ask my therapist a bout it next wednesday though...to see what she has to say...And, yes..Im having to learn how to take care of myself and to depend on myself rather than others..so its hard but Im trying my best to take care of me...:) thanks...:)
PB
Posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 14:44:31
In reply to Re: At the risk of a PBC » Racer, posted by Pandabear on February 26, 2004, at 11:35:57
I guess I'm just not communicating well these days. I had hoped that I'd expressed an apology in my last post, albeit with excuses for myself. Let me try again:
I'm sorry I offended you. My feelings are my problem, and I'm sorry that I expressed them without thinking about their possible effect on you. Good luck with your program for recovery.
Posted by antigua on February 26, 2004, at 15:08:45
In reply to You're right, and I apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
Hello Racer, pardon me for butting in here, but I was wondering if you were speaking from experience or offering your opinion of eating disorders? You seem to be knowledgeable about nutrition.
antigua
Posted by Crooked Heart on February 26, 2004, at 15:37:29
In reply to Re: At the risk of a PBC » Pandabear, posted by Elle2021 on February 25, 2004, at 22:58:53
> > I will be back soon...:) I will probably start posting on friday..
>
> I look forward to then. :)
> ElleYeah, I was worried you were going to stop, too.
All the best, CH
Posted by Crooked Heart on February 26, 2004, at 15:50:38
In reply to You're right, and I apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
women are beautiful when they live comfortably within their own skin.
>
>It makes me both sad and angry to see that, knowing that some of them are so much more beautiful than they'll ever really know, and still suffer over something as ridiculous as a few pounds that actually make them *more* beautiful.
>
> When I hear about young women doing anything that I perceive as falling into the trap of trying to reach unrealistic physical appearance, or eating only at night to keep their weight down, I over react.I wish I could write as well as you. But what you say there pushes *my* buttons. It makes me so angry especially when it's not just young women, it's nine-year-olds. Which was the almighty authority that said only size 10 is beautiful?
Posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 16:47:17
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » Racer, posted by antigua on February 26, 2004, at 15:08:45
Unfortunately, I am speaking (well, typing) from experience. I've battled with my weight issues for most of my life, and, while I've gained a lot of intellectual understanding of them, I can't say I've won the war. The rational part of that is all well and good, but at this point I have to try to learn to move past that, into the more visceral understanding of it all. That's the hardest part for me.
As for understanding nutrition, I have a certain knowledge in that area, largely from working with animals. With animals, it's a whole lot easier to see the effects of dietary changes. There's not so much existential angst involved, so it's a little purer view of the whole picture. I've extrapolated what I've seen in animals and paid attention -- as best I could -- to similar changes in myself. As a statistical model, that's worthless, of course. Sample sizes of one don't count. On the other hand, I wish someone had been able to use the knowledge I now have in such a way that it could have helped me twenty five years ago. That frustration, that what I now know seems so natural and so glaring and yet no one ever seemed to see it, is probably why eating and weight topics are so powerful for me.
Anyway, I'm always happy to pass on anything I know on the subject, so if you think it could help you in any way, please feel free to ask. It's something I feel strongly about -- obviously -- and while it's definitely of limited value, it's yours for the asking.
Posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 17:01:12
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » Racer, posted by Crooked Heart on February 26, 2004, at 15:50:38
If I go into all of what I have to say on this subject, it make this whole post unsuitable for the Psychology board, but here's a little tiny bite for you, because you're absolutely right. It isn't just young women, it is 9 year olds, and it is middle aged women and it is senior aged women. The size 10 model as the proper size in any meaningful way is wrong. Did you know that clothing companies have changed their definitions of size, by the way? During periods when big breasts are in style, the bra companies make smaller cups so that women can feel happier about buying more bras. Clothing manufacturers make the size ten about the same dimensions now as the size 16 to 18 back when the standards were first put in place. (That's why, if you sew, you'll be using about four sizes larger in a pattern than you buy off the rack.) When a woman gets to buy a size 10 instead of a size 12, she feels good and buys more. It's a conditioned response thing, and the manufacturers and retails know how to play the game.
And at the same time, you've got the corporate welfare programs that produce more corn than we can ever use, leading to corn syrup in everything, the obesity epidemic, *and* a "thin is the only acceptable body type" construct.
The bottom line is this: we are being told that what we are isn't good enough. It happens with men, too, although it's usually in other arenas, so we can't say it's just women who suffer from it. On the other hand, it *is* a major issue for many women, and it's hardly ever addressed in truly constructive ways. Instead, we're seeing pressure on small children -- who really need that nutrition and whose eating habits are being shaped for the rest of their lives -- to conform to an unreasonable standard.
Heheheh, I know, I know, but it just all came out...
(Oh, yeah, and while the first part -- about sizing -- sounds mostly like the sort of crank conspiracy stuff you hear sometimes, it really isn't. I sew a lot of clothes, and I have a lot of patterns from my mother and grandmother, and I've read about pattern size standards. There really was a standard agreed upon -- although I can't remember which decade, maybe 1940s -- and the patterns are sized according to it, although that's finally starting to change. I sew -- usually -- about a size 12 or 14 for myself. Off the rack, I'm a size 6.)
Posted by obSession on February 26, 2004, at 17:23:14
In reply to Therapist mentioned binge eating..., posted by Pandabear on February 24, 2004, at 20:46:19
HI
A therapist once said that sometimes you keep eating or feel the need regardless of your weight or if u have a disorder to try and fill an emptiness ...which is an emotional thing!
it make sense to me ,maybe it will make sense to u too :)
Posted by gabbix2 on February 26, 2004, at 17:29:13
In reply to You're right, and I apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
> Thin is not beautiful, and plump can be beautiful.
It bothers me when I see *any* body type being disparaged. Thin can be very beautiful.
I know some women who eat a lot and are just naturally tiny. They hurt just the same when they read articles or are told how they look scrawny or anorexic. I don't think equality means having to put someone down in order to raise up another.
Posted by Pandabear on February 26, 2004, at 17:32:49
In reply to Re: Therapist mentioned binge eating..., posted by obSession on February 26, 2004, at 17:23:14
Ok...Thank you to everyone who has been posting things to me but I think this hits it on the head for me...you are right that it is an emotional thing for some people...I dont think that I have an eating disorder..ive been thinking about it for a while now and I do eat a lot more when im anxious and worried and obsessing ..which I have been doing a lot lately. Eating is something that comforts me and its something that is within my reach and that I can control..whereas what i might be worry about at the time or obsessing over isnt..am I making sense? I think Im ok. Thanks!
Pandabear
Posted by Pandabear on February 26, 2004, at 17:39:41
In reply to You're right, and I apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
Racer, I accept your apology...I think that I sent a post to you when you had just sent me yours so it sounded to you like I wasnt accepting? I dont know. Anyway, I thank you for rephrasing things. I understand that buttons can be pushed and that we can say things we might not really mean when that happens..but all is well.
THANK YOU FOR CLEARING THINGS UP! :)
PandaBear
This is all im going to respond to on this topic...I dont want there to be any upheaval from anyone who might think im obsessing over this.(and I could) All is well...and I want to keep it this way..Goodluck with everything. <><
Posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 18:15:58
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » Racer, posted by gabbix2 on February 26, 2004, at 17:29:13
> > Thin is not beautiful, and plump can be beautiful.
>
> It bothers me when I see *any* body type being disparaged. Thin can be very beautiful.
> I know some women who eat a lot and are just naturally tiny. They hurt just the same when they read articles or are told how they look scrawny or anorexic. I don't think equality means having to put someone down in order to raise up another.
Let me try to rephrase that:For:
> > Thin is not beautiful, and plump can be beautiful.
Read:
"Being thin is not synonymous with being beautiful. Thin people and plump people have an equal chance of being beautiful. Beauty has many shapes and forms, each as valuable as all others. Body type is not the sole criteria on which that beauty rests, and any body type can be equally beautiful."
I guess I'm just not able to express it. I didn't mean that "Thin people are not beautiful." I meant that people could be beautiful without being thin. I hope that helps.
Posted by gabbix2 on February 26, 2004, at 18:34:05
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » gabbix2, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 18:15:58
aha! that made all the difference. Thanks Racer
This text communication can be so trying :(
Posted by Elle2021 on February 26, 2004, at 20:11:23
In reply to You're right, and I apologize » Dr. Bob, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 11:30:49
Racer,
I'm sorry that this topic is touchy for you. I understand that. But, at the same time, something you said hurt my feelings."Thin is not beautiful, and plump can be beautiful."
I have been thin my whole life. Not due to an eating disorder, simply due to genes. It hurts my feelings when you say thin is not beautiful. I do not think I am ugly.
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on February 26, 2004, at 20:22:11
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » Racer, posted by gabbix2 on February 26, 2004, at 17:29:13
>They hurt just the same when they read articles or are told how they look scrawny or anorexic. I don't think equality means having to put someone down in order to raise up another.
I just wanted to thank you for making that point. I was really thin throughout highschool and it did hurt to have people say those things to me. What Racer said kind of brought all those feelings back.
Elle
Posted by Elle2021 on February 26, 2004, at 20:25:23
In reply to Re: You're right, and I apologize » Racer, posted by Elle2021 on February 26, 2004, at 20:11:23
Sorry Racer, I didn't finish the entire thread before I posted to you. When I posted I hadn't read your clarification on the statement about thin not being beautiful. I'm sorry.
Elle
Posted by antigua on February 26, 2004, at 22:38:34
In reply to Not butting in a-tall » antigua, posted by Racer on February 26, 2004, at 16:47:17
I guess the reason I was asking was because if you were speaking from experience, my experiences are so very different from yours.
For me, the issue has never been about a quest for thinness. Furthermore, my experiences with eating disorders are centered on emotional issues that don't have anything to do with food. It is a coping mechanism I learned at a young age to deal w/my emotional problems, to punish myself for the way I feel about myself.
It has nothing to do w/society's idea of beauty, it has to do with how I feel about myself. It is the symptom and not the cause, and it is important for me to work on the issues that underlie what I do to myself. I don't passively accept that I have this problem; I struggle and work with it every day. I think if it was all about food, I'd be able to handle it better.
I just thought your view was an interesting one that was so very different from my own. I think we're both right, for us, we're just different.
antigua
Posted by Racer on February 27, 2004, at 11:03:41
In reply to Re: Not butting in a-tall » Racer, posted by antigua on February 26, 2004, at 22:38:34
I know that my "issues" aren't about trying to be thin enough to be acceptable. It's one part self-punishment, two parts distorted body image based on my essential sense of failure in every aspect of my life (even those where empirical data proves I succeeded), one part taking on my mother's craziness, two teaspoons of screaming for help, and a dash of trying to disappear from the world.
So, it wasn't about food for me, either, but it did start out as a sort of, "I'm going to do something positive for myself by losing weight and getting in shape." I meant it, thinking that losing weight and getting in shape would improve my self-esteem enough that I could start feeling more successful. The problem with that, was that my weight wasn't the problem. And the real problems, mostly the failure parts, turned out to overwhelm me. See, most of the time my failures are apparent in going too far, rather than giving up. I set unrealistic expectations for myself, then punish myself because I couldn't meet them. So, diet and exercise didn't become the road to a healthy body to house my healthy mind -- it became another way to punish myself for my failures.
Mind you, this was 26 years ago. I'm still fighting it. Three minutes after a depressive episode starts for me, I start to "self-medicate" by trying to lose weight. The only way I can keep any control over those impulses is to keep my weight above a certain magic number. Above that number, I don't go into the cycle; below it, the eating patterns are triggered easily, and the emotional turmoil that I identify with that state start taking over. (Taking over in the sense that starvation does lead to cognitive impairment, at least in my case I know that's true.)
So, eating disorders are very much more complex than food, but it still hurts me to see some of my most beautiful friends, those with bodies I think are so scrumptious, so voluptous, so beautiful, worrying that they don't match up to the Supermodels. Yes, I have had friends who were naturally slender, or even skinny. For that matter, everyone in my family -- except me -- is built tall and lean, and they look very thin. That's one body type, and it's lovely on those who have it naturally. My body type, round and feminine, is often lovely on other people. (I can't say I've ever *liked* my body's appearance nude. But I've seen other women who are said to share my build, and they're lovely.) There's such a wide range of shapes in this world, and it's painful for me to watch beautiful examples of one shape punish themselves for not being another.
Lots of rambling, but I'm trying very hard not to get into another cycle of offending everyone with careless communication. What I'm saying, is that we're not so far off as you might have thought.
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