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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tabitha on February 18, 2004, at 0:06:01
I'm really upset after my group session. I thought I had settled into the group, I thought I was accepted, I felt like it was finally a safe place to be. Tonight I learned a couple of people are still pretty bothered by something I told people like 10 weeks ago, that I thought my therapist had encouraged me to say, so I thought it was OK to say it. And my therapist decided to bring this up and explore it *after* I had shared some very personal stuff about my mom and my brother, so it felt really awful that after that vulnerability, the main feedback I get is that some people are still upset about something I shared 10 weeks ago. So I'm thinking that feeling accepted and safe was just my illusion.
It's sort of the same issue as in my individual therapy. My therapist keeps encouraging (pressuring actually) me to share my hurt or angry feelings with people. I don't find that this generally draws people closer. In fact it seems to create discomfort that never gets cleared up. OK I admit it's necessary to process with your significant other or your close family members, when you're committed to the relationship, but she pressures me to do this with friends that aren't really all that close. My experience of taking her advice and doing this has made relationships worse, or ended them.
Since joining the therapy group I've seen that sharing your 'bad' feelings can work, when everyone is trained to hear such sharing as a bid for intimacy rather than a complaint or criticism. But even in that setting it can backfire. All these weeks ago I shared that I was feeling some irritation with some of the group processing style. People were asking a lot of questions, and sort of leading the conversation with questions, and I don't like that. (I actually thought people would pipe up and say they'd noticed that too, and we'd all discuss other ways to interact.) Instead everyone said they hadn't noticed this at all, three people didn't have much negative reaction to what I said, but two of them were pretty offended.
So this is just more evidence to me that sharing your irritation/hurt/anger is risky. It might improve the relationship, and it might damage it. Even in group therapy, which is supposed to be relationshop utopia where everything gets talked about and worked out.
Besides feeling disillusioned and rejected, I'm so angry at my therapist over all this. It seems like she set me up to fail, then didn't support me. When this came up she encouraged the 2 people to share how they felt about me, then didn't go into my reaction at all. It's like she's trying to teach me a lesson that I did something wrong.. to see how what I said drove people away.. but I didn't even want to air my irritation in the first place-- she encouraged me to do it. It's just maddening.
I'm so sick of the whole cr*p therapy process. Sometimes you come out of the session feeling better, sometimes you come out feeling worse, meanwhile your bank account continues to drain, and it's all based on the dangling carrot of some supposed future benefit. I feel really awful.
Posted by lookdownfish on February 18, 2004, at 4:17:06
In reply to Not a good session, posted by tabitha on February 18, 2004, at 0:06:01
Tabitha
Sorry you're feeling like this. Are you sure people are still bothered about what you said? It sounds ridiculous to still be offended by something so inoffensive that was said all that time ago. Who actually said they were bothered? From what you say its the therapist that brought up the issue not the people in the group. So maybe they are not really bothered in a hostile sense, but just shared how they felt at her prompting. There's a big difference. I don't understand why she would bring it up. Was it relevant at that point? And besides, I totally agree with you about leading a conversation with questions. It tends to close off areas for discussion rather than keep things open and spontaneous. Saying something like that in the context of group therapy should be totally acceptable not risky.
Sorry, hope things improve. Give your therapist a rocket for not supporting you.
Posted by fallsfall on February 18, 2004, at 8:17:45
In reply to Not a good session, posted by tabitha on February 18, 2004, at 0:06:01
Argh! I feel your frustration. It sounds like you were trying a new behavior that was encouraged by your therapist. And now that behavior is not as popular as would be liked, and your therapist is telling you that it was a bad thing to do? I hate that feeling - that you didn't want to do something to start with, and now you are in trouble for doing it!!!
I would definately talk about this in miniscule detail with your therapist. This CAN'T be the message that she is intending to send to you (Do what I suggest and then I'll punish you for it). So either you heard something that she didn't say, or she said something that she didn't mean. At least, I hope so. Since she's been working with you on this area, it would be best to be really sure that you understand what she is trying to say (or that she understands why what she is trying to say is rediculous...)
Good luck. Don't give up. Keep talking. It will be worth it.
Posted by KindGirl on February 18, 2004, at 8:49:07
In reply to Re: Not a good session » tabitha, posted by lookdownfish on February 18, 2004, at 4:17:06
Tabitha,
This sucks so bad!!!! Yeah it sounds like you were egged on...set up...and I can see how you would be mad at your t. the one supposed to protect you and all. :( Bummer.
I think we all feel so scared just walking in the door to the t's office every week (I do). She lures us out, we take off our clothes and expose ourselves, which is extremely shaming as it is...and then we stand there and wait.
I hate it when I feel like she encourages me to come out more, to reveal more, and then my time us up. DING DING! NEXT!...and I leave with my clothes in my arms, naked, thinking, What the hell was that?
It just sucks. Hang in there. I think she really DOES care about you...there might be a misconception somewhere in there and you know you can always talk to her about it...probably should talk to her how you are feeling otherwise you will walk away from the next appointment very pissed and resentful and REALLY feeling ripped off. Go for it. You are worth it! What can feel worse than you already feel? Just a thought. Thinking of you today....KG
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2004, at 9:39:20
In reply to Not a good session, posted by tabitha on February 18, 2004, at 0:06:01
(((Tabitha)))
I know how hard you're working at this group, and I so admire you for it.
Just a thought, if you think your therapist is pushing you to be assertive about what you don't like, is it possible she's doing the same thing with fellow members? It seems really odd that they would bring something up all that much time later and express strong opinions about it, but less odd if your therapist has been encouraging it.
Maybe she thinks she has a group of people who need to work hard at expressing their frustrations and being more assertive? It seems a bit odd, but...
I have to admit that my therapist sometimes has some odd ideas about relationships. I'm glad I'm not in one with him, other than the therapeutic one. If I followed his marital advice, I'd be divorced. If I was as vulnerable in public as he'd like me to be, I'd just as well stamp "ODD" across my forehead. Or make it bigger, at least.
But before you get too frustrated by the whole thing, it might be a good idea to get her take on why she's done what she's done, both with you individually and by bringing this topic up in group. She might have what seems, to her at least, to be a logical conclusion. And if you think she's all wet, you can use the skills she's taught you to tell her so. Firmly.
Posted by tabitha on February 18, 2004, at 15:42:49
In reply to Re: Not a good session » tabitha, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2004, at 9:39:20
Oh, I'm still so mad. Every bit of me wants to cancel tomorrow's individual session, which I'd have to do in the next half hour to avoid paying the fee..
Thanks everyone for the rational perspective. You all seem to be saying I might have some misconception, but regardless I really need to hash it all out with the therapist. The infuriating thing is I have to go spend the $200 or whatever to tell her how mad I am at her! At times like this it seems it should be free.
I'm going to have to make a list of every aspect of this situation that pissed me off. There's quite a bit of detail. I demand an explanation of the whole issue-- she has kept hinting that people might still hold that session against me. I want to know what the heck she is thinking. I swear she encouraged me to bring it up long ago. And when she asked people to talk about it yesterday, their responses didn't exactly seem rational to me, seemed like distorting what I had said, yet she let them sit. I would expect her to explore with people if their reactions were distorted.
And why on earth does she encourage me to do similar things in other relationships if it doesn't even work in group therapy?
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2004, at 15:48:59
In reply to Re: Not a good session, posted by tabitha on February 18, 2004, at 15:42:49
FWIW, Tabitha. I'm not saying you're having any misconception at all. :) But I do think you've had a long relationship with her, and it's probably worth trying to straighten it out before making any decisions. *Maybe* she's got a reasonable response.
I agree with you about the therapy fees. I always think that when my therapist screws up, and it really is him and not projection on my part, that he ought to waive the fee. But of course, he never does. Nor would he. He'd probably say it was therapeutic to learn to move past difficulties. Sigh.
Posted by tabitha on February 18, 2004, at 16:44:06
In reply to Re: Not a good session » tabitha, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2004, at 15:48:59
> FWIW, Tabitha. I'm not saying you're having any misconception at all. :) But I do think you've had a long relationship with her, and it's probably worth trying to straighten it out before making any decisions. *Maybe* she's got a reasonable response.
Thanks. As you might have noticed, when I get mad at her, I usually come out of the next session convinced it was all just my misperception. There are just so many things that don't add up right now. I want to make a list and go over every one, and insist on an explanation.
Posted by Karen_kay on February 19, 2004, at 12:15:22
In reply to Re: Not a good session » Dinah, posted by tabitha on February 18, 2004, at 16:44:06
I think making a list and going over evrything is the desired goal, isn't it? It sounds lilke a wonderful plan of action. This gives you a chance to tell your therapist exactly what you think and feel about things (ie, telling someone your negative reactions) but in a safe setting.
If that happened to me, you bet your bottom I'd be right there yelling at everyone. And I'd be yelling at my therapist for weeks afterwards.
You sound like you handled yourself well. There is value in telling people things you find irritating, ect. I stsarted doing it with my friend. It doesn't mean they'll change, but it helps to get your anger and disgust out of your own system, you know? Maybe you could start with close friends or relatives, those who love you. I started doing it with my friends and it has improved my relationships with them. They now acknowledge that they aren't always supportive, fun to be around, have a big arse, ect... And when they start to acknowledge what you say, it feels great! You not only feel like you've helped someone to be a better person, you don't harbor the anger anymore. Think of it this way, you're changing the world one step at a time...
PS. (Like I'm writing a letter..) My therapist is beggining to suggest I start group. For the most part, how's that working for you? What's it like? Do you feel like you've made progress since beginning group? I think he's only suggesting it to keep me as a client, as he says I can be his assistant, but I'm considering it... Any commments would be great..
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 18:04:08
In reply to Re: Not a good session » tabitha, posted by Karen_kay on February 19, 2004, at 12:15:22
If you are going to go into a group that he is running then I would insist on going in as "just another group member". You don't need to feel that you are in any way responsible for the other people in the group. One reason that group works is that everybody is at a peer level.
Group might help you evade things less.
Good luck!
Posted by tabitha on February 19, 2004, at 18:15:53
In reply to Re:Group » Karen_kay, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 18:04:08
I was so mad I called in sick to my session today, but we did a phone session. I went over all the issues, she 'got' how I was seeing it and how I was feeling, then she did her usual magic transformation of it all. I'm too exhausted to explain it all. Some elaborate thing about my anger toward my mom, fear of losing my brother, how I'm filtering all these interactions to match my past experience, how I'm extra vulnerable right now and regressing to old beliefs, yada yada yada. Perfect alternate explanation for every piece of it, plus she coached me on how to process it with the group next week. I need to absorb a bit but I think she's right... again! It's such an ego blow.
I actually did something I'd never done.. besides the calling in sick part-- I held back and didn't tell her the extent of how upset I've been, what with deciding to chuck therapy and the group, sobbing for 2 days. I was quite a wreck.
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 19:07:04
In reply to Re:She worked her usual magic, posted by tabitha on February 19, 2004, at 18:15:53
I'm glad you were able to talk it out. This is why it is important to try to talk things out instead of just chucking therapy (however tempting it might be)! Lots of times, these situations are where we can learn the most from therapy. Painful, but gainful (I just made that up - I think it's pretty cute!).
Good for you.
Will you tell her the next session how upset you were?
Posted by tabitha on February 19, 2004, at 20:11:17
In reply to Re:She worked her usual magic » tabitha, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 19:07:04
painful but gainful. Wow that's a little corny! but cute.
I don't know if I'll tell her how upset I was. I sort of lied about being sick. I don't feel very good, but mostly I was just too mad to be in the same room with her.
I also neglected to tell her one other thing. I think I overheard 2 group members talking about emailing each other on the way out. It's against our contract to have any contact outside the group. Right now I think I want to bring that up in the next group meeting. I hate being a tattletale.. but it really bothered me to hear that.
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 20:16:59
In reply to Re:She worked her usual magic, posted by tabitha on February 19, 2004, at 18:15:53
Tabitha, do you really believe what she said? You make it sound almost too perfect...
I'm a great one for working things out with your therapist, but I just wanted to check with you that you aren't feeling like your perceptions were being, oh I don't know...
I'll think about this and see if I can make some sense of what's in my mind. It's just the way you put things, you know? Like she made you doubt what you saw.
Argh. The old brain isn't working tonight.
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 21:02:31
In reply to Re:She worked her usual magic » fallsfall, posted by tabitha on February 19, 2004, at 20:11:17
You should definately bring up the email issue in the group session. Not fun, but important.
Posted by tabitha on February 19, 2004, at 21:16:54
In reply to Re:She worked her usual magic » tabitha, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 20:16:59
It is almost too perfect, but she really did have a different interpretation of what happened, reasonable reasons for what she did, and she offered to let me check things out with the group next week to clarify whose perception was more correct. I actually did have hazy memories of some parts, where I didn't remember what was said at all. At times I don't look at anyone's faces, while she constantly monitors faces, so I think she really sees more emotional reactions than I do. Plus she is doing therapy with most if not all the others, so she knows them better.
Several times I've checked out my perceptions of people's reactions in the group and been dead wrong. It does blow my mind to find out how much filtering and interpreting I do. Other people do the same. Sometimes we'll all compare impressions of something that was said and it's like the story of the blind men and the elephant.
It would make more sense if I gave examples.. it's just hard to write out all the details. For instance, I had said that I was finding some of the questioning intrusive and off-track, and explained I'm introverted and like some silence in conversations so I can process. One woman said that when she heard that she reacted as if I was making rules for the group, and she's a rules person so she felt she had to follow the rules. Clearly this is a distortion of what I said. I expected the therapist to follow up and sort of make this woman admit she was distorting it. When she didn't do that I felt she was letting people dump on me. So I asked the therapist why she let that remark go, and she said that the way she heard it, the woman was aware that what she was saying was a ridiculous distortion and was her own issue. I also thought the woman was expressing some anger toward me, and the therapist said she didn't hear any. I pretty much expect people to get mad at me if I challenge them, so I can see how I might hear anger that isn't there. I can also look back at the situation and see that my therapist's interpretation could hold, and is a little more reasonable than mine.
Then there was this long argument about whether one group member was listening to me or not. The therapist saw several indications she was listening, which I didn't see. She pointed out I sure have a lot of anger toward that woman, and suggested I'm displacing anger against my mother onto her. Well dang if those kind of suggestions aren't maddening, but it does seem like I have some issue with this woman above and beyond the little group interactions. I can see if thinking about my mother instead of this woman will dissipate some of it.
She told me I can clear it up next week, which I'll probably do, but I'm just sure her interpretation is closer to the truth than mine. To hang onto my own perceptions I'd have to believe people are actually lying to me about themselves.
Every week there are so many little interactions like this. Some of them get processed during the group, but a lot of time is spent hashing things over in my individual sessions. It's exhausting. My therapist has told me I really do seem to distort people and situations, and it's a big issue in my relationships. I trust her enough to believe she's right. It's just so much work to dismantle the process. It's an ego blow, which is what I complain about so much here. I hate the dependency on her to help me sort it out. Eventually though I'll be free of a lot of these negative perceptions, and my relationships will be easier. I can't exactly characterize my filter, but it looks like I generally see more negative feelings than other people actually have toward me, and miss the positive ones. Wouldn't it be nice to shed that filter?
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 21:44:20
In reply to Re:She worked her usual magic » Dinah, posted by tabitha on February 19, 2004, at 21:16:54
Thanks for clarifying, Tabitha. I feel better now that you feel better about the whole thing. Yes that is an admirable therapy goal, and one that would make life a whole lot more pleasant.
Group sounds challenging and yet rewarding. I really admire your courage in doing what it takes to get the most of the situation. I know I couldn't do it. If my therapist doesn't feel safe challenging me, I can only imagine how I'd process group. :)
I hate to see you hurting so much, but I can see where it's for a good cause. Remember that we're always willing to hear you if you need to talk and yell.
Posted by tabitha on February 19, 2004, at 23:56:15
In reply to Re:She worked her usual magic » tabitha, posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 21:44:20
Thank you. I know when I'm upset I make it sound awful, like I'm being brainwashed or something. Sometimes it feels that way. Actually the last few weeks had been pretty easy and uneventful. I don't fully understand why I had such a freakout this time.
Posted by tabitha on February 24, 2004, at 23:22:19
In reply to Re:She worked her usual magic » tabitha, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 21:02:31
Really good group session. I brought up the email incident, and sure enough that didn't actually happen either. They were discussing getting email from a former group member, not emailing to each other. I got SO much positive feedback for bringing it up-- and aired all my feelings and issues about what if they *were* emailing, everyone else told how they'd feel, understood my feeling, etc. Here I was afraid of all kinds of rejection for 'tattling' and got all this validation and support instead.
Posted by lookdownfish on February 25, 2004, at 4:28:21
In reply to Re:Update... now it's REALLY all better.., posted by tabitha on February 24, 2004, at 23:22:19
Posted by fallsfall on February 25, 2004, at 8:33:58
In reply to Re:Update... now it's REALLY all better.., posted by tabitha on February 24, 2004, at 23:22:19
Tabitha,
Thank you SO much for giving us a view into your world with group. The incidents that you bring up and the feelings that you describe ring SO true. I think that you are demonstrating what good therapy CAN be - and how painful it can be for the client (even when it is doing you good).
I'm so glad that you had the courage to bring that up. And I'm even more glad that it turned out the way it did.
What a relief!
(((((Tabitha)))))
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2004, at 10:28:35
In reply to Re:Update... now it's REALLY all better.., posted by tabitha on February 24, 2004, at 23:22:19
Posted by tabitha on February 25, 2004, at 20:43:04
In reply to Re:Update... now it's REALLY all better.. » tabitha, posted by fallsfall on February 25, 2004, at 8:33:58
Thank you falls. It's nice to hear that you find my posts about this to be useful. Sometimes I imagine people must just be sick of hearing about it.
((((Falls))))
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2004, at 10:14:21
In reply to Re:Update... now it's REALLY all better.. » fallsfall, posted by tabitha on February 25, 2004, at 20:43:04
Sick of hearing it? Not on your life! I'm learning all the pros and cons of group without having to participate. You're doing me an immense service by posting about it.
Thank you, Tabitha.
Posted by tabitha on February 26, 2004, at 11:56:12
In reply to Re:Update... now it's REALLY all better.. » tabitha, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2004, at 10:14:21
> Sick of hearing it? Not on your life! I'm learning all the pros and cons of group without having to participate.
Hey, that's my attitude toward watching reality dating shows ;-)
This is the end of the thread.
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