![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 59. Go back in thread:
Posted by fallsfall on February 5, 2004, at 22:09:17
In reply to I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 14:11:40
I can see in your description how she is trying to maintain her boundaries. That, I think, is a good thing.
Sharing her attraction with you, however, does put you in a position of continuing to hope for more - and that could be a bad thing.
Have you ever talked with someone whose therapist DID violate these kinds of boundaries? I think that it might be helpful for you to know what they thought about it at the time and what they think about it now. I have not had this experience, or I would share it with you. If you were interested, you could post an email address for them to write to you - it might be something they don't want to put on a public board.
I understand your longing (believe me - I've had the longing in a maternal sense with my old therapist). I understand the intensity. I understand why you wouldn't want to give it up. I also worry about you.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 5, 2004, at 22:14:29
In reply to I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 14:11:40
I'm wondering if maybe you are feeling a little depressed because you unconsciously know that she may have crossed a boundary that you may have told yourself that you wanted her to cross, but know unconsciously that that boundary should stay in tact? Does this make sense? While it is flattering to know she finds you attractive, maybe subconsciously you know that the most helpful realtionship for you is one of "Dr. and Patients" as it were. Perhaps you could feel somewhat betrayed by her admission? Am I making any sense, I feel I am not.
ANother thing I've been thinking about and I could be completely out of line: Maybe you are feeling depressed because the thrill of the chase may be over by her admission. Was it exciting to you to maybe think that you could get a heterosexual woman to admit her attraction to you? And now that she has admitted her attraction, is the chase over? So many times the fantasy is much more wonderful than the reality. Sometimes I think that there is no way a person could be 100% gay, just like I think it is rare to be 100% heterosexual. I have sometimes tried to convince a gay man, who I think has some attraction for women, to at least admit a desire sometimes for women. I will admit that there are times when I feel desire for a woman, although that is not my dominant proclivity. I just wonder if getting her to admit a possibility of "batting for the other team" as it were was a challenge to you, and now that you have been successful, you feel somewhat let down.
Just my awful psychology. Any thoughts?
Posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 22:22:50
In reply to Re: I got my wish » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on February 5, 2004, at 22:09:17
You know, it's weird, but I feel less hopeful that we may have a relationship than I did before, if anything. I guess I've never really had a realistic hope for it. But I think that's why I'm so depressed, because it keeps sinking in that I can never have her. I think the only way she might be able to take my hope away would have been to tell me she's not the least bit attracted to me and never could be, but that would be so mean, I can't imagine why on earth she would do that. And that would cause other problems, I would think (i.e., contribute to low self-esteem). So, I really don't think she's fueled my hopes by telling me that (the truth is, I already sensed it, anyway -- she just confirmed what I knew in my gut).I guess the problem with it is that it feels all the more tantalizing. I want her, she wants me, the only thing keeping us from being lovers is the therapeutic relationship (oh, and her husband and kid maybe also). So maybe that's contributing to my depression. But it was tantalizing anyway. Now I just know it for sure.
Thank you for worrying about me. It's really sweet. I'm worried about me, too.
And if anyone wants to email me about this, it would be great. You can use petitsnickers@yahoo.com. I don't always check that address often, but I'll try to remember to check it in the next few days or so.
> I can see in your description how she is trying to maintain her boundaries. That, I think, is a good thing.
>
> Sharing her attraction with you, however, does put you in a position of continuing to hope for more - and that could be a bad thing.
>
> Have you ever talked with someone whose therapist DID violate these kinds of boundaries? I think that it might be helpful for you to know what they thought about it at the time and what they think about it now. I have not had this experience, or I would share it with you. If you were interested, you could post an email address for them to write to you - it might be something they don't want to put on a public board.
>
> I understand your longing (believe me - I've had the longing in a maternal sense with my old therapist). I understand the intensity. I understand why you wouldn't want to give it up. I also worry about you.
Posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 22:32:33
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 5, 2004, at 22:14:29
Well, Miss Honey, I definitely think you're wrong about Number 2. First of all, I never assumed she was straight. She could be bi. We never discussed her orientation. And I have "recruited" plenty of "straight" women in my life so that's no longer a big thrill for me. Also, I'm totally thrilled, if I really let it sink in, that she's attracted to me. There's no let-down there (except the one when I realize we can't act on it). I'm thrilled because she's my ideal woman, and she's so cool, and beautiful, and successful, and older, and she's attracted to ME. I don't take that for granted. It's very exciting. (Even though I just sounded all full of myself for recruiting straight women so this sounds like a contradiction. But she's really SPECIAL.) There's also an even bigger challenge here: getting her to actually sleep with me. So if there's any thrill of the chase going on here, the chase is far from over. When I actually bed her, THEN maybe I will be depressed about that. (Just kidding. Sort of.)
As for your Theory Number One, it doesn't strike me as true, but I don't rule it out. I don't think so, though, no. I don't feel betrayed. How is that a betrayal? It's honesty, which I appreciate very much. I usually think it can only help.
> I'm wondering if maybe you are feeling a little depressed because you unconsciously know that she may have crossed a boundary that you may have told yourself that you wanted her to cross, but know unconsciously that that boundary should stay in tact? Does this make sense? While it is flattering to know she finds you attractive, maybe subconsciously you know that the most helpful realtionship for you is one of "Dr. and Patients" as it were. Perhaps you could feel somewhat betrayed by her admission? Am I making any sense, I feel I am not.
>
> ANother thing I've been thinking about and I could be completely out of line: Maybe you are feeling depressed because the thrill of the chase may be over by her admission. Was it exciting to you to maybe think that you could get a heterosexual woman to admit her attraction to you? And now that she has admitted her attraction, is the chase over? So many times the fantasy is much more wonderful than the reality. Sometimes I think that there is no way a person could be 100% gay, just like I think it is rare to be 100% heterosexual. I have sometimes tried to convince a gay man, who I think has some attraction for women, to at least admit a desire sometimes for women. I will admit that there are times when I feel desire for a woman, although that is not my dominant proclivity. I just wonder if getting her to admit a possibility of "batting for the other team" as it were was a challenge to you, and now that you have been successful, you feel somewhat let down.
>
> Just my awful psychology. Any thoughts?
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 5, 2004, at 22:41:26
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 22:32:33
I just wonder if your unconscious may view it as a betrayal, something your waking mind may not grasp yet. Unconsciously, you may really feel that a strict boundary, play by the rules, patient/therapist relationship is what is really best for you in the long run.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound flip about the issue of "recruiting." I just know it would be a big ego boost for me if a gay man said he wanted to sleep with me or found me sexually attractive. I didn't mean to sound like a smart a$$.
Posted by lookdownfish on February 6, 2004, at 3:48:49
In reply to Re: I got my wish (long), posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 17:31:26
Hi Crushed
I actually think she has acted entirely properly. She may have admitted her attraction for you, but she has in no way acted on it or given you any hope of things going further. Depressing though that is for you, I think she has handled it well. It sounds like she realised that giving the mixed messages before was a mistake, so it's good that she's been honest and it's out in the open in black and white. Yes, she's attracted to you, and No, nothing can happen between you. I know its hard as the impossibility of a relationship is now starker than ever. That is probably why you are still feeling so depressed. But hopefully you will feel less alone with it. I hope you're feeling better today.
ldf
Posted by alexandra_k on February 6, 2004, at 6:57:25
In reply to I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 14:11:40
Hello again. I know I put my foot in it last time, but I shall have another go.....
I think that maybe you are depressed because while she admitted feeling an attraction to you she also made it clear that that would not be acted upon.
Now back to the issue of supervision......
She did admit that she perhaps didn't act so wisely in a few respects. Now to acknowledge this shows insight, but will she do it again????? Therein lies hope..... and supervision would cull that hope. No longer would these feelings of attraction be private and exclusive between the two of you (and all of us on this forum) but an objective therapists opinion would be brought to bear on the situation. That would probably be the last bit of hope destroyed. I know that it is painful, but I wonder whether this might be best for the long term. In the sense of you getting better so as to have fulfilling and reciprocal relationships with peers and in the sense that your relationship with your T may well be strengthened (and she will become a better T too which is surely good for her career).
I am sorry if this sounds cold. I really do sympathise with you and I too get that little thrill of 'but then what did she say, what did she say next, will my next p-doc do this with me do you think?????'. Just an objective (and probably completely wrong) opinion... ak.
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 12:42:20
In reply to Re: I got my wish » Miss Honeychurch, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:10:19
Crushed for what it is worth I think I KNOW exactly how you feel on this. I would like my T to feel attracted to me also because it gives me HOPE in my hopeless world..that someone..maybe not him but someone like him even, would find value in me. My T gives me mixed messages and I think he does but I am a coward and cannot ask. I am happy for you in a way cause now you know it's not JUST you in this. I have had it for my T WELL over a year and he has crossed lines some would say but you know..I dont care and won't sit around defending him so I never post or talk about him but inside he keeps me alive in more ways than one. ENJOY the fact she has feelings it means you have a shot with someone GOOD like her someday.
>
> I think I'm mostly just flattered. I *always* hope that a romantic relationship could start (not hoping it leaves me with no hope at all, if that makes any sense), but I know realistically that is not possible. Her boundaries on this have always been clear, and she reiterated them today.
>
> I think those boundaries are what's making me feel depressed. I want her so bad.
>
> But I think her telling me she's been attracted to me just makes me feel a lot less alone and pathetic for having had this crush on her all this time (it's been over a freakin' year). And it makes me feel good about myself, like maybe someone like her really could want me someday. (Too bad I only want her and not someone "like" her. :( )
>
>
> > Crushedout,
> >
> > I am wondering about your frame of mind as a result of this. Do you think that a romantic relationship could start or are you just flattered, knowing that a relationship couldn't be possible?
>
>
Posted by shortelise on February 6, 2004, at 12:47:39
In reply to I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 14:11:40
As I'm new here and don't know you, I hesitate to write, but h*ll, if I want people to write to me, I should answer posts that I feel I have something to say about.
What I see most clearly in this debate is that you seem to be validated by her physical attraction to you. You're an attractive woman, lots of people are attracted to you. I mean, it's east to, um, well, find people to have sex with, right? It's the rest of it that's hard, the love part. She said she was attracted to you (which if my therapist ever said to me would negate much of the trust I feel for him) but what exactly is that worth?
Feel free to tell me to piss off.
Shorte
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 12:51:40
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by shortelise on February 6, 2004, at 12:47:39
Oh and I wanted to add though it may be dim. I think there is still a tiny bit of hope even with her..maybe. Don't give up on it , give it time, work the therapy part of it and keep your eyes and heart open to other loving people
Posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 12:52:25
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by shortelise on February 6, 2004, at 12:47:39
no need to p*ss off, but i don't understand your question, if there was one. want to try again?you're right, it does validate me a lot. did you already answer your own question?
> As I'm new here and don't know you, I hesitate to write, but h*ll, if I want people to write to me, I should answer posts that I feel I have something to say about.
>
> What I see most clearly in this debate is that you seem to be validated by her physical attraction to you. You're an attractive woman, lots of people are attracted to you. I mean, it's east to, um, well, find people to have sex with, right? It's the rest of it that's hard, the love part. She said she was attracted to you (which if my therapist ever said to me would negate much of the trust I feel for him) but what exactly is that worth?
>
> Feel free to tell me to piss off.
>
> Shorte
Posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 13:01:19
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 12:51:40
Thank you so much, Fallen, for saying this. In the way that you did. Of course, there is always that tiny hope, because nothing is impossible, right? Anything can happen in this crazy world. And it's not even impossible that if it did happen, it wouldn't be a disaster. Although these are very unlikely outcomes, so you're right that I need to stay open to other things, and not let that hope override everything else. But if it keeps me going, why give it up entirely? I see no point. Even if she *says* it can never happen, that doesn't mean it can't. Someday, a long way down the road. If we both still want it at that point.
Like I said, this is getting far-fetched, but the point is it's not impossible. Anyway, thanks. It's good not to lose hope, as long as it's kept in perspective.
> Oh and I wanted to add though it may be dim. I think there is still a tiny bit of hope even with her..maybe. Don't give up on it , give it time, work the therapy part of it and keep your eyes and heart open to other loving people
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 13:11:11
In reply to Re: I got my wish » Fallen4myT, posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 13:01:19
Anytime, and I really mean it. I may be crusified by others for my view on it but hey, you didn't ever think she would say she was attracted I bet..and she was soooo :) hope is there and we both know there HAS to be a net so we know to look and be open for others but hey I love that hope and need it too :) And for what it's worth I have written off things only to have them come true. BEST to stay safe in its a dim hope as we said but come on...there IS hope and I for one and happy for you..Wish I could ASK my T and get that answer in words not just deeds
> Thank you so much, Fallen, for saying this. In the way that you did. Of course, there is always that tiny hope, because nothing is impossible, right? Anything can happen in this crazy world. And it's not even impossible that if it did happen, it wouldn't be a disaster. Although these are very unlikely outcomes, so you're right that I need to stay open to other things, and not let that hope override everything else. But if it keeps me going, why give it up entirely? I see no point. Even if she *says* it can never happen, that doesn't mean it can't. Someday, a long way down the road. If we both still want it at that point.
>
> Like I said, this is getting far-fetched, but the point is it's not impossible. Anyway, thanks. It's good not to lose hope, as long as it's kept in perspective.
>
>
> > Oh and I wanted to add though it may be dim. I think there is still a tiny bit of hope even with her..maybe. Don't give up on it , give it time, work the therapy part of it and keep your eyes and heart open to other loving people
>
>
Posted by terrics on February 6, 2004, at 16:00:23
In reply to disclaimer re judging her, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 17:40:31
Hi, I think you both seem to be handling this attraction well. Nobody jumped into anyone's lap; or did they? It is really difficult to be in such an intimate relationship with someone you are attracted to. A really wonderful part of therapy is the intimacy, the feeling of trust and security. Try not to lose that, as in my opinion it is MUCH MORE important than the sexual part. I have been through something similar, but am settled into a non-sexual but very intimate relationship with my T. [I have a personal question which of course you do not have to answer.] Are you both female? p.s. I think the intimacy lasts and the sex fades over time. terrics
Posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 16:06:18
In reply to Re: disclaimer re judging her » crushedout, posted by terrics on February 6, 2004, at 16:00:23
nope, nobody jumped into laps. yep, we're both female. she's married to a man.
> Hi, I think you both seem to be handling this attraction well. Nobody jumped into anyone's lap; or did they? It is really difficult to be in such an intimate relationship with someone you are attracted to. A really wonderful part of therapy is the intimacy, the feeling of trust and security. Try not to lose that, as in my opinion it is MUCH MORE important than the sexual part. I have been through something similar, but am settled into a non-sexual but very intimate relationship with my T. [I have a personal question which of course you do not have to answer.] Are you both female? p.s. I think the intimacy lasts and the sex fades over time. terrics
Posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 16:57:35
In reply to Re: I got my wish » crushedout, posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 13:11:11
This made me feel so much better. I worry that it means I'll keep hoping and keep getting depressed when my hopes get dashed (by things she says). I have to be careful.
One of the things I'm hoping her admission will help me with is opening up to her even more than I already have. Like about my fantasies about her, etc., to begin with. So, here's my question: Do I share with her this dim hope that we actually can be lovers maybe possibly one day? I dunno. I think it will be hard for me to do, because I'll want to protect one last little shred of my fantasy from being destroyed, but maybe that's the very reason I should do it. But then that kind of means we're wrong, Fallen, to want to hang onto this hope. I dunno. I need it so bad. It keeps me alive.
What do you think? Should I talk to her about it, or just cherish it?
> Anytime, and I really mean it. I may be crusified by others for my view on it but hey, you didn't ever think she would say she was attracted I bet..and she was soooo :) hope is there and we both know there HAS to be a net so we know to look and be open for others but hey I love that hope and need it too :) And for what it's worth I have written off things only to have them come true. BEST to stay safe in its a dim hope as we said but come on...there IS hope and I for one and happy for you..Wish I could ASK my T and get that answer in words not just deeds
>
> > Thank you so much, Fallen, for saying this. In the way that you did. Of course, there is always that tiny hope, because nothing is impossible, right? Anything can happen in this crazy world. And it's not even impossible that if it did happen, it wouldn't be a disaster. Although these are very unlikely outcomes, so you're right that I need to stay open to other things, and not let that hope override everything else. But if it keeps me going, why give it up entirely? I see no point. Even if she *says* it can never happen, that doesn't mean it can't. Someday, a long way down the road. If we both still want it at that point.
> >
> > Like I said, this is getting far-fetched, but the point is it's not impossible. Anyway, thanks. It's good not to lose hope, as long as it's kept in perspective.
> >
> >
> > > Oh and I wanted to add though it may be dim. I think there is still a tiny bit of hope even with her..maybe. Don't give up on it , give it time, work the therapy part of it and keep your eyes and heart open to other loving people
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 17:13:37
In reply to question » Fallen4myT, posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 16:57:35
Yo Crushed,
My opinion is to keep it inside..not cause it might not come true but you MAY spook her as it is too soon and she is working on her own issues on this..like her looking at what she feels. Being she is married she may be scared INSIDE hey she IS human T or not on the female attraction deal...so why tip her off while shes looking inside herself? I say lay in wait. For instance, I am married and have been before if the one woman I had an affair with had pushed me I would have ran...but she was smart and held back cause she was gay and must have known I was scared of my own feelings...so years went by as friends WITH attraction and then wham it all happened and was GOOD so give her time...Also its not JUST the girl thing its her job and so much..she needs time. Hope rocks and you got it but must have patience and respect her space..I MEAN she admitted she is attracted to you that was a huge step one :)
Posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 17:21:19
In reply to Re: question, posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 17:13:37
Hmm, I definitely don't think the whole lesbian thing scares her at all. The married thing and therapist thing, yes, I could see that. She wouldn't want to even think about any possibility that could screw those up right now maybe, so yeah, it could scare her.But it scares me to keep this hope inside, too. For my therapy. So I dunno. It's more important that I get better than that I keep her interested in me for some dim possibility way down the line, ya know? I guess maybe I'm answering my own question but I'm really undecided. I kind of see it from both angles. I'm just wondering if the two angles are a devil on one shoulder (no offense, but that would kind of be you -- don't get me wrong: i LOVE this devil!) and an angel on the other.
> Yo Crushed,
> My opinion is to keep it inside..not cause it might not come true but you MAY spook her as it is too soon and she is working on her own issues on this..like her looking at what she feels. Being she is married she may be scared INSIDE hey she IS human T or not on the female attraction deal...so why tip her off while shes looking inside herself? I say lay in wait. For instance, I am married and have been before if the one woman I had an affair with had pushed me I would have ran...but she was smart and held back cause she was gay and must have known I was scared of my own feelings...so years went by as friends WITH attraction and then wham it all happened and was GOOD so give her time...Also its not JUST the girl thing its her job and so much..she needs time. Hope rocks and you got it but must have patience and respect her space..I MEAN she admitted she is attracted to you that was a huge step one :)
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 17:39:39
In reply to Re: question » Fallen4myT, posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 17:21:19
HAHAH no offense on the devil deal :) I am not like a lot of people in that I want what I want when I want it and at all cost. So to me THIS IS JUST ON ME ..If my T ever made a move..I would go for it and seek another therapist and not regret or be damaged by it cause I see T's as very very human.
SO maybe you are thinking in a smarter way to deal with it (intellectual) than a feeling way ..(hehe Devil ). You're in no huge rush on this or is it eating you alive? See I kinda think if you say ANY TINY HOPE she has no option but to say none even if there is or will be some...but maybe that's just me and the way I think.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 6, 2004, at 20:39:21
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 22:32:33
> I'm thrilled because she's my ideal woman, and she's so cool, and beautiful, and successful, and older, and she's attracted to ME. I don't take that for granted. It's very exciting.
Crushed,
I admire you for dealing with something so intense and for so long! I don't have much to add because it looks like you are getting a variety of opinions. It's just that the above line struck a chord in me. If you are into reading about therapy, you might want to read some of Kohut's works, particularly about idealizing transference. This is a phenonenon that makes perfect sense based on developmental needs. It may give you additional insight into your feelings.I wish you the best of luck in dealing with this. I'm sure that whatever direction your therapy goes, it will continue to take courage and honesty, as all therapy does.
Take care,
gg
Posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 10:38:54
In reply to Re: I got my wish » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on February 6, 2004, at 20:39:21
I'm very aware that I idealize her in many ways, but isn't also possible that she's my ideal woman, just in reality? I think that's at least partially the case. She has many of the qualities I've always looked for in a lover.It just makes me feel bad when it all gets chalked up to transference.
> > I'm thrilled because she's my ideal woman, and she's so cool, and beautiful, and successful, and older, and she's attracted to ME. I don't take that for granted. It's very exciting.
>
> Crushed,
> I admire you for dealing with something so intense and for so long! I don't have much to add because it looks like you are getting a variety of opinions. It's just that the above line struck a chord in me. If you are into reading about therapy, you might want to read some of Kohut's works, particularly about idealizing transference. This is a phenonenon that makes perfect sense based on developmental needs. It may give you additional insight into your feelings.
>
> I wish you the best of luck in dealing with this. I'm sure that whatever direction your therapy goes, it will continue to take courage and honesty, as all therapy does.
>
> Take care,
>
> gg
Posted by gardenergirl on February 7, 2004, at 13:01:54
In reply to Re: I got my wish » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 10:38:54
I'm sorry my suggestion made you feel bad, and it is certainly credible that she is your ideal woman. But transference is a real thing. The feelings are real. If, and I'm just saying *if* your feelings are part of a transference, that does not make them any less real or true. It just means that your feelings are useful therapeutically.
Just something to think about. I'm *not* saying this definitely applies to you. It's just another way (of many)to look at your situation. Only you and you T can figure out what is true for you.
Kohut viewed idealizing as one part of a normal human developmental need. Children idealize their parents or some significant adult other out of a need to develop a healthy self-esteem. "Mommy and Daddy are perfect, and they love me, so I must be perfect as well." What needs to happen, and didn't really happen enough for me, I might add, is that the parents provide something called mirroring. This involves the parents reflecting the childs feelings back to him. "Yes dear, I agree that is good. You are good" is the message. The child needs to hear that in order to develop a healthy self-esteem. If the child does not get enough mirroring (similar to validation), then the adult continues to look for idealized objects for self-esteem, because they were not given what they need to feel good about themselves internally (for whatever reason) as a child.
I just wanted to clarify what I meant by an idealizing transference. *If* this is what is going on with you, it does not make your needs and feelings any less real or valid. I just think they *could* be used to tell you more about yourself.
Feel free to tell me to jump in the lake,
gg
Posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 13:11:30
In reply to Re: I got my wish » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on February 7, 2004, at 13:01:54
please don't jump in the lake (at least not unless it's warm out and you feel like taking a swim). that was interesting, and potentially very useful to me.but but but i just want to say: i know transference is real. i just don't think that's all that's going on here. i think part of it is chemistry, and genuine mutual like/love and attraction, that would occur were we to meet anywhere else in the world. that's my point. and for some reason i feel it's very important.
i know there's transference going on also, and i also know that that part is powerful and real and useful to my therapy. i just don't like it getting all chalked up to that. why? that's an interesting question. why does that bother me. i have to think about it.
> I'm sorry my suggestion made you feel bad, and it is certainly credible that she is your ideal woman. But transference is a real thing. The feelings are real. If, and I'm just saying *if* your feelings are part of a transference, that does not make them any less real or true. It just means that your feelings are useful therapeutically.
>
> Just something to think about. I'm *not* saying this definitely applies to you. It's just another way (of many)to look at your situation. Only you and you T can figure out what is true for you.
>
> Kohut viewed idealizing as one part of a normal human developmental need. Children idealize their parents or some significant adult other out of a need to develop a healthy self-esteem. "Mommy and Daddy are perfect, and they love me, so I must be perfect as well." What needs to happen, and didn't really happen enough for me, I might add, is that the parents provide something called mirroring. This involves the parents reflecting the childs feelings back to him. "Yes dear, I agree that is good. You are good" is the message. The child needs to hear that in order to develop a healthy self-esteem. If the child does not get enough mirroring (similar to validation), then the adult continues to look for idealized objects for self-esteem, because they were not given what they need to feel good about themselves internally (for whatever reason) as a child.
>
> I just wanted to clarify what I meant by an idealizing transference. *If* this is what is going on with you, it does not make your needs and feelings any less real or valid. I just think they *could* be used to tell you more about yourself.
>
> Feel free to tell me to jump in the lake,
> gg
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 7, 2004, at 13:36:06
In reply to Re: I got my wish » crushedout, posted by gardenergirl on February 6, 2004, at 20:39:21
For what it is worth not ALL therapists and areas in psychology agree on exactly what transferance is and some totally discount it. Ya know, sometimes a cigar is justa cigar and my T has told me straight up just cause youre a client does NOT make it transferance. Time will tell for you I bet its both.
Posted by Rigby on February 7, 2004, at 18:16:24
In reply to Re: I got my wish » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on February 7, 2004, at 10:38:54
I think that whether it's your therapist or the girl next door, when we develop intense crushes for people, or even "fall in love" we're acting *somewhat* upon transference. Don't most of us have huge needs and urges from our past that need filling?
I think the "trap" that I learned about, and this is by being with the woman I idealized (older, gorgeous, brilliant, a well respected M.D.!) is that, yeah, you're in this "state" of arousal around "getting" this person (the chase), then being with them (yummy!!) and then, after a while, years even, you really begin to have a look at what you've "got." Luckily, in my case, the woman I lusted after is wonderful; but it's not like I'm in the same "state" I was before about her. I had to go have sex with another woman to get me there again--and again and again. It's a difficult pattern.
I believe the crushed state is similar to a wonderful, wonderful drug. But once you do "get" the person, in time, it wears off and if you don't go deeper to figure out what's up you'll leave her or maybe go out on her to get that high again.
Love and lust are fabulous things. For me, learning that they can also mask some demons has been difficult. Very difficult.Put another way, if all you can think about is her, pretty much, how getting her is the only thing you can focus on then, how if you can't have her you'll die, etc., well, I'd call that a distraction--a pleasant one but possibly something to examine in terms of running away from some stuff (I plead very guilty as charged on this one.)
I think actually by confronting the "can we ever be lovers" question is a good thing. Because the sooner you know it's out of the question, the sooner you will have to re-focus the therapy onto you--kicking, screaming, whaling, totally ticked off you can't get what you want--but it'll be back on *you.* Whether it be the pain of disappointment or other pain in your life but in either case, the focus goes back to you and not to her and how you can "get" her. This is assuming your therapist is skilled and has some backbone.I've "gotten" most of the women I've wanted. And nearly got my therapist too. But when she caught herself in it she called it off and, I think by doing so, I grew. Not finished growing, by a long shot, but not getting what you want when you almost always do, through tried and true methods is a really, really tough experience but in a lot of ways unbelievably beneficial.
Having said all this, I don't think you can learn much about matters of the heart from batting them around on a message board. The heart wants what it wants. You can only learn by going out there and living and loving--getting your heart broken and feeling it soar.
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