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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by URCONFUSED on September 21, 2002, at 16:54:36
After several years of severe refractory depression and multiple medications, Ive broken down and read my first touchy feely, girly therapy book. Called "Feeling Good" its by this guy named Dr. David Burns. Its mostly about something called CBT or "Cognitive Behavioral Therapy." I must admit, I find many of Dr. Burns opinions about depression inflammatory to say the least.
First of all, he refuses to acknowledge the biological basis for severe depression. He wont talk about depression in the same way he talks about "other major mental disorders" such as bipolar or schizophrenia. He claims that ALL and I do mean ALL cases of depression result from "cognitive" distortions or thought distortions. I find this all or nothing, black and white thinking by Dr. Burns repulsive.
There are many, many cases of severe depression induced by drugs, not by negative thoughts. Additionally, many cases of major depression develop after going thru a life trauma such as a nasty divorce. Dr. Burns wont talk about this in his book. Its clear to me that Dr. Burns is personally biased against the idea that severe mental illness is a medical disorder.
Then the most hypocritical thing of all in his drugs section in the second half of the book, Dr. Burns goes onto bragg about the MAOIs. He talks about the MAOIs like they are the best thing since sliced bread. The MAOIs are the most powerful antidepressants!!! Give me a break here.
After reading "Feeling Good" I have this to say about it. While some of the CBT ideas are useful, much of it is very oversimplified particularly with regards to severe depression. Id say this book is most useful to those with mild depressions which dont need medications and are mostly situational or environmental based depressions.
All cases of major depression are NOT due to "cognitive distortions." Some are, but some are not.
URCONFUSED
Posted by Phil on September 21, 2002, at 21:04:19
In reply to Feeling Good book and Dr. Burns....quack?, posted by URCONFUSED on September 21, 2002, at 16:54:36
MAOI's probably are the most powerful AD's. They often work when nothing else will, including ECT.
I guess he named his book that cause he's feeling good making money off of misinformation.
Posted by OddipusRex on September 22, 2002, at 9:19:06
In reply to Feeling Good book and Dr. Burns....quack?, posted by URCONFUSED on September 21, 2002, at 16:54:36
>
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20020702/msgs/538.html
You might like to read a previous thread on this subject
After several years of severe refractory depression and multiple medications, Ive broken down and read my first touchy feely, girly therapy book.
`````Well, I wouldn't call him touchy feely-maybe thoughty actiony?
Called "Feeling Good" its by this guy named Dr. David Burns. Its mostly about something called CBT or "Cognitive Behavioral Therapy." I must admit, I find many of Dr. Burns opinions about depression inflammatory to say the least.
>
> First of all, he refuses to acknowledge the biological basis for severe depression. He wont talk about depression in the same way he talks about "other major mental disorders" such as bipolar or schizophrenia. He claims that ALL and I do mean ALL cases of depression result from "cognitive" distortions or thought distortions.I'm surprised. Could you provide a specific quote on that subject?~~~~~~
I find this all or nothing, black and white thinking by Dr. Burns repulsive.
>
> There are many, many cases of severe depression induced by drugs, not by negative thoughts. Additionally, many cases of major depression develop after going thru a life trauma such as a nasty divorce. Dr. Burns wont talk about this in his book. Its clear to me that Dr. Burns is personally biased against the idea that severe mental illness is a medical disorder.~~~~~~In the feeling Good Handbook Burns states that half of the patients in hic clinic recieve both therapy AND medication. He states that medication is especially appropriate for patients who are too depressed to try and help themselves or participate in therapy.~~~~~~~~
>
> Then the most hypocritical thing of all in his drugs section in the second half of the book, Dr. Burns goes onto bragg about the MAOIs. He talks about the MAOIs like they are the best thing since sliced bread. The MAOIs are the most powerful antidepressants!!! Give me a break here.~~~~~MAOIs are very powerful antidepressants. They aren't used as much because of the side effects.~~
>
> After reading "Feeling Good" I have this to say about it. While some of the CBT ideas are useful, much of it is very oversimplified particularly with regards to severe depression. Id say this book is most useful to those with mild depressions which dont need medications and are mostly situational or environmental based depressions.~~~~~I disagree, medications are often only partially effective or not effective at all. CBT is another option. There has been research that showed that CBT was effective.~~~~~
>
> All cases of major depression are NOT due to "cognitive distortions." Some are, but some are not.
~~~~~~
Maybe not-but major depression almost always has cognitive distortions whether they are the cause or effect of the depression, so why not treat them?
URCONFUSED, I like Burns and have found him straightforward and honest. He is definitely not a quack. I think even most people who do not agree with him would appreciate his ethical standards and his willingness to have his methods submitted to research. ~~~~~~~~
Posted by MattDDS on September 24, 2002, at 14:06:52
In reply to Feeling Good book and Dr. Burns....quack?, posted by URCONFUSED on September 21, 2002, at 16:54:36
Dear URCONFUSED,
Wow, you seem pretty upset about Burns' ideas about depression! What did you find "touchy-feely", as you put it, about his ideas? Why would it be so awful if it were touchy feely? Why did reading it mean you were "breaking down"? I have to admit, I felt somewhat put down by your comments, as you sounded somewhat condescending, in my opinion. You made it sound as if people who can be helped by CBT have depression that is somehow less painful or severe than yours. To me this minimizes other people's suffering.
I also was severely depressed as you are, with all the melancholic features (as well as pseudoneurological symptoms). CBT helped me pull out of a major episode. CBT also has lower relapse rates than antidepressant therapy, as has been consistently shown in studies.
Actually, CBT is not quackery at all. CBT is a very well researched treatment modality for depression. If you do some research, you will find new studies that show it is equally effective for all types of depression, including severe depression.
I believe you are creating "straw-men" with your arguments. Burns does not state that depression is "not a biological illness". He does, however, say that there is not a whole lot of evidence to support the "serotonin deficiency" hypothesis. I agree with this, as there is scant evidence to support this. He does say that depression is more likely a "software" problem rather than a "hardware" problem, to borrow the computer analogy. Some studies have shown that similar biochemical changes take place on PET scans when people were treated with either antidepressants or CBT.
Also, did you actually do any of the exercises? Simply reading the book is not supposed to help depression.
I really do wish you the best of luck with getting good treatment! I hope you aren't offended by anything I have said, as that was not my intention. Whatever treatment works for you, I hope you continue with it, even if we disagree on the style.
Matt
Posted by Squiggles on September 27, 2002, at 16:15:50
In reply to Feeling Good book and Dr. Burns....quack?, posted by URCONFUSED on September 21, 2002, at 16:54:36
Thanks,
I rather suspected it would be a fluffy
book. I suppose they do no harm; frankly,
it was the author's name that peaked my
interest. It sounds familiar.Anyway, there are many books of this type
and I suppose they do no harm (that may
say more than can be said of some doctors).Squiggles
many doctors
Posted by FredPotter on October 10, 2002, at 21:58:47
In reply to Re: Feeling Good book and Dr. Burns....quack? » URCONFUSED, posted by Squiggles on September 27, 2002, at 16:15:50
. . . like Cheri Huber's "The Fear Book" and "The Depression Book". Something about the titles shows she thinks what she is writing is the last word. And so it is. The last word in Self-Help rubbish. I recommend the study and practice of Zen but not in this form
Posted by Squiggles on October 11, 2002, at 8:12:55
In reply to Re: Feeling Good book and Dr. Burns....quack? » Squiggles, posted by FredPotter on October 10, 2002, at 21:58:47
thanks,
i just didn't want to judge a book by its cover;
but the author and reviewer rang a bell.Squiggles
Posted by nevergiveup on November 21, 2007, at 12:11:44
In reply to Re: Feeling Good book and Dr. Burns....quack? » FredPotter, posted by Squiggles on October 11, 2002, at 8:12:55
My Dr. recommended this book. It is quite a good book, extremely practical and helpful. I do notice the tendency away from a chemical imbalance theory, which, to me, is actually empowering to those who are depressed. If we think we can do nothing without meds, then we might never approach problems/ways of thinking that are at least somewhat contributing to our depression. He clearly states that uses meds on his patients when therapy is just not working alone or if patients desire it. He just cites his own experience with meds and CBT and its definitely a refreshing view point. Overall, its a very encouraging, practical, no non-sense book. Its definitely worth picking up. I was very glad my Dr. suggested it. It is the best book i have read thus far, though I have only read a sampling.
Posted by Squiggles on November 21, 2007, at 12:32:21
In reply to Re: Feeling Good book and Dr. Burns....quack? No, posted by nevergiveup on November 21, 2007, at 12:11:44
I am pretty sure i have read this one long ago;
i may be confusing Dr. Burns with another book
"Moodswings" but i doubt it, as the latter is
mostly on lithium. This one used to have a yellow cover with cute cartoons. It was very common-sense.I am certainly not against such popular books for
coping with depression and life crises. However,
once put on a medication, these books are soft
therapy, and you dr. will not take you off your meds once you have read and understood the book.Still, they are helpful, and i have quite a few.
When i rave about drug therapy, i am referring to
the very psychotic states, where you are wasting
your words on the person in another mental state-- best to medicate, stabilize and then talk.The mystery is, whether you can take the person off the meds after and get to a pre-medicated, pre-depression, pre-schizophrenic, or pre-psychotic state. I think our medical overloaded health care system, just doesn't have the time or resources to do that.
Squiggles
Posted by FredPotter on November 22, 2007, at 14:21:48
In reply to Re: Feeling Good book and Dr. Burns....quack? No » nevergiveup, posted by Squiggles on November 21, 2007, at 12:32:21
The physical brain changes linked to depression are said to be paucity of glial cells in the pre-frontal cortex and an atrophied hypothalamus (or is it hippocampus?). It's not clear to me whether the depression comes first, or the physical changes do, or whether they both proceed together. It's discussed in "Against Depression" by Peter Kramer. Not a self-help book thank goodness
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