![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 68. Go back in thread:
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:55
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 5, 2006, at 5:44:49
Actually, as a physician, I feel quite strongly that health care is definitely NOT a "basic human right".
Do you need water to survive? Can you live long without it? How does it feel to die of thirst?
Well, is water a "basic human right?"
What about food? Do YOU need to eat to live?
Is YOUR food free? Well, it should be, should it not? After all, if you need it to live, shouldn't it be a "basic human right" and be free?
What about shelter? Can you live out doors with not even a vinyl tent to shelter you from the elements? Who knows where I can go to live for free? After all, I could easily freeze to death, or be mugged, or die of heat exhaustion without shelter. It should be a "basic human right."
In many parts of my country, people consider air conditioning necessary for survival. The ability to refridgerate, store, and cook food is quite necessary for survival in the modern day. Therefore, electricity should be a "basic human right" and should be free.
In fact, take the ability to travel from say, the grocery store back to the house. How can you mangage without some form of transportation these days? Is your transportation free? Could you live without it? Next time you take a cab, decline to pay the driver; this is your right. See how well that goes over.
Do you have a bicycle? Unless you stole it, it was not free. A horse? How much does his feed cost? It shouldn't cost a dime.
When you go to the store next to buy sundries like soap and bread and milk, try telling the check out girl that what is in your cart is necessary, and therefore, as a "basic human right" should be free, so you will not be paying for your purchases. See how well that goes over.
I wonder if she will call the manager. I wonder if he'll call the police. I wonder if you will be able to take your "basic human rights" home with you?
Oh, and next time your toilets overflow and you call the plumber, let him fix your toilets so that raw sewage is not flowing into your bedroom, and then tell him that since it is definitely a threat to your health and survival, good plumbing is a "basic human right" and you shall not be writing him a check for his services. Do you think he will simply nod, and agree with you, and be on his way with a smile?
And when your car breaks down, make sure to let the garage mechanic know how you absolutely need your car to operate properly in order to drive to work, because without that paycheck, you do not know how you will survive.
Otherwise, he may expect you to pay for his services; he may not realize that a properly functioning automobile is, for you, a "basic human right"
When you fill up at the service station, don't worry about the price of gas; why should you?
You need that gas; it is another "basic human right".
The government pays for health care in the UK and in Canada, and in most countries, things like police, fire, and military protection are services that are paid by the government. The government also manages things like our roads and passes laws to protect the environment, in fact , the government itself, designed to manage society and to protect it, is paid for by taxes. I suppose the government, and all of the various beaurocracies that arise from it are considered to be "basic human rights".
"Well", you might respond, "that is what tax is for; to provide for the things to all people that are necessary for survival and safety of the people; and that in the UK and in Canada, the health care system is paid for out of taxes for this very reason".
Well, then, why don't we just let the government handle all of those other things that I mentioned above? Food, water, clothing, shelter, electricity, transportation, sanitation, plumbing, electrical, mechanical and carpenter services relating to all of the above?
Every little nagging thing that comes up, and in some way, if not taken care of, could jeapardize our health, our safety, or our lives should be of little or no cost to a person. Let the government manage all these necesseties since they are all "basic human rights" and we should not have to worry our little heads about these things; they should be forthcoming automatically with little or no effort (and certainly, no worry or concern) on our parts.
And so, if something is a "basic human right" because it is necessary for survival, then I certainly feel that food, water, shelter and clothing would come BEFORE health care. Sanitation would come before health care as well. These items are MUCH MUCH more important for survival on a DAY to DAY basis (and it would follow, therefore, that they would qualify over and above health care as "basic human rights") It should, therefore, by the same reasoning, all be paid for by the government (out of taxes, which the people pay to the government).
So, we should all just turn over our whole paychecks to the government so that they could take care of the costs of things that are necessary for survival, these "basic human rights".
Perhaps we could keep a small percentage of the money left over for luxury items, like pillows and chocolate.
And for all those folks who do not work because of some "disability" (which has come to include such awful, undeserved, unavoidable and irreparable maladies such as laziness, sloth, selfishness, and drug addiction; as well as, come to think of it, hypochondriasis, malingering, conning, liars, losers, and fakers, etc, etc) Don't worry! You will eventually get all you need to live comfortably (food, water, shelter, clothing, electricity, sanitation, etc) for free, or the government will issue you free money to pay for these things. Be patient ( I know it must be awfully hard, having to wait and all) But just keep going back to the SSI office with your forms and your lawyers (that are free since you don't pay until he gets your government check for you). Eventually, you won't EVER have to work again for ANY of these things! It will all be free, and the burden for these services will be carried forever on the backs of those who are too stupid to realize that they don't HAVE to work to get all the things necessary for survival. As "basic human rights", these things are completely free, provided by the government, whether you or I or anybody else works or doesn't work.
Would it not be cruel to deny anyone these things? What kind of society allows its people to go without the necessities of life?
Able bodied folks should not HAVE to work; life is precious! Any life! If a person wants to sit back and play video games, eat, sleep, have sex (and make babies), all day, every day, for the rest of their lives, it should be their choice. But DON'T deny them the things that they need to live! They need food, water, shelter, electricity (kind of hard to play video games without that), and, yes, eventually, even health care to live. These are all "basic human rights" that no one should EVER be denied for ANY reason!
Many of you are probably getting steamed. "What about someone who gets cancer, and can't afford surgery or chemotherapy? What about all the AIDs patients?
That is why you endear yourself to your community by putting forth an effort, by working hard and being a good person, by helping others in their time of need, by having a loving family who rally around for their sick and their weak in times of trouble.
In the old days, in the rural parts of the country, folks stuck together for the good of the group. It was a fair and efficient way to run a community.
When a new couple got married, all the able and nearly able-bodied men got together to build them their house and their barn. Everyone chipped in.
The women cooked and tended the children.
Labor was divided and conquered by the group as a whole.
When the storm came and destroyed old Farmer Joe's barn, the young groom would join all the other men and help old Joe rebuild his farm. The women of the community would come from miles away on foot or on horse back with their children and their baked goods to donate to the family in crisis.
When the old widow became to old and feeble to tend to her home, she would be cared for by the community. The women and young girls would take turns looking after her needs, at her own house, and sometimes, she would be taken in.
The old doctor in the community was supported by the community for the good of the community, much in the same way the preachers were.
Paying what you could pay, or providing needed services for to return for his medical services.
No one would think of blaming the doctor if the youngest son in the family took diptheria and died, because everyone knew the heart of the doctor was a good heart, and he had a good mind, and he did all he could do.
Quacks were eventually run out of town, I am sure.
But ever person in the community did their part.
Personal responsibilty is a fading and nearly extinct civilized human quality these days.
The truly ill were cared for.
The lazy, the loafers, the thieves and the otherwise self-centered losers were not tolerated, and they certainly were not supported by, the community.
I believe that if a person has lived a good and productive and generally honest and kind life up to the time that they take ill, the community that they live in will rally around, and they will be cared for, (and so will the doctor who cares for them during their illness).
But a person that has lived a selfish life, has not contributed to the community but has, in fact, taken advantage of and undermined the community, should be abandoned in their time of need. They have lived a life in which they cared for no one, so now, no one shall care for them.
It is biblical. It is right. It is fair.
The innocent and the righteous will not be abandoned by their family, their community, their society.
The guilty ones shall be, and should be.
If they have shown kindness to even one person, that will be enough. That person will step in to return the favor of kindness and do what he can for the ailing undeserving.
If not one person has experienced a drop of kindness from this person, what else should he expect from the world he so despised?What about Christian beliefs, that we should be as Jesus was and love the least of us?
This world does not have an infinite amount of resources to constantly supply and support a society that becomes dysfunctional to the point our society has because of this type of thinking.
Eventually, there will be a final straw. And the whole society will fall beneath the burden of the wicked that expected (and got) a free ride.It's reality, folks. Wake up and smell the coffee. This ride will end. We have stuck our collective heads in the sand on this issue for too long now. This type of thinking has GOT to end, for the good of the whole of society.
Just tell me this: when the balance of those on the dole becomes greater than those paying for the dole, what will happen then? What will become of all these "rights?" What will become of all these fuzzy and warm ways of operating a society?
Think about it for just half a second before you reply.
And don't say "that will never happen"
I didn't used to, but now, I think about kicking back and taking it easy for the rest of my life myself every now and then. Why shouldn't I?
What keeps me from doing it? I am not sure.
Morals maybe? Ethics maybe? A sense of personal responsibilty, maybe?
What about you? Are you getting what you need to live? Are you working for it? Or, are you "disabled"? Does your MENTAL ILLNESS really mean that you absolutely can do NOTHING to earn your keep? Or are you struggling and soldiering on, as am I? As are all of us who get up early everday, put one foot in front of the other, go out the front door, and go to work?
We have all heard stories about blind folks working and living independantly. We have heard about people with serious debilitating illness making a living. Folks with Down's syndrome working in some way and paying for some, if not all, of their own basic needs.
Why? They would ALL qualify for the dole!
Because something good inside them drives them.
Something right in their souls drives them to do what they can to contribute to their community.
But, if these truly disabled folks wanted to (and it would be within their rights to do so), they could give up. They could sit back and watch the sun rise and the sun set on their back porch with their iced tea every day for the rest of their lives, and no one, not even I, would have a thing to say against it.But, they don't. Why not?
In fact, why are we all not taking it easy in life? Why are we all not finding a way to "waste away again in Margaritaville"?
Why don't we all just sit back and expect all the "basic human rights" to be made available to us forever after, with absolutely no indebtedness to the community on our part?
I am a person that has worked hard all my life. As a little girl, I went to school. I did not skip class. I never cheated. I studied hard. I didn't commit crimes. When I was 11, I started babysitting to pay for my little extras because I knew I did not DESERVE a coke or a candy bar or to go to the movies. But, if I worked for it, I would have earned the right to indulge in that way. As I reached my teens, I worked after school and on weekends. I didn't do drugs or smoke. I stayed in school. I paid my own way. Later on, I paid my childrens' ways. I never got on the "dole". And, after 23 years of intense education, single parenthood, and sometimes what seemed like impossible work, I finally have realized, all I ever needed to do to have food, water, shelter, etc. was, by golly, take two or three years, perhaps in my late teens, and apply for disability for, oh, I don't know, DEPRESSION?
Oh, and don't worry, I have accumulated over the years more diagnoses if I need them; and if I hadn't, I sure know how to get them, now! If only I had known 23 years ago!!
Maybe, just maybe, I would not even BE depressed anymore!! I wouldn't NEED to come up with hundreds of dollars every month! I would probably have no worries, no stress, and NO DEPRESSION if all my needs were taken care of by others, without question!
And I wouldn't have to worry about my children, because they would already be on their way to "independence" by getting SSI checks, government housing, free health care and meds,
etc, of their own!When I was very small, I was taught a couple of lessons that have stayed with me all of these years; as a small child, I took these lessons to heart.
The first was the story of the pilgrims during the early days of this country. Many, many people came over and had to make their way in the rugged and wild new world. They had to work together in order to survive. Even small amoutns of chaos and just a few folks indulging in sloth would result in complete annihilation and death of each and every person in the community.
They had to plant seeds, tend to livestock, build shelters, manage the children, tend to the ill, cook the food, repair things, defend the group, etc, every day, all day long, for decades and decades on end. These people were industrious, and they knew that everyone should pitch in. In fact, the welfare of the whole group was jeapardized if they did not ALL work together. It was expected that every able bodied (and many feeble-bodied) folks should all pitch in.
But one man just sat all day in the shade of a tree, napping or otherwise goofing off, as the others worked around him all day long. He did not budge when he saw a man struggling with a heavy load. He did not whistle when an unwary man was in danger, because he too busy daydreaming, or perhaps the sun was in his eyes, so he had turned his back to rest more comfortably. So, when it came time to sit down for supper, this man was unpleasantly surprised to find there was no seat at the table for him! The rest of the group would not stand for his lazy and selfish behavior. Each man was expected to work if he wished to eat. This was not negotiable, and the others did not find his selfishness amusing or endearing in anyway. It simply increased the burden of the others, and put every man, woman, and child at risk for their lives. The rest of the folk had NO intention of allowing the lazy man to claim food, water, shelter, or anything else as something he DESERVED as a "basic human right" that he did NOT HAVE TO WORK FOR!!!.The lazy man quickly learned that to eat, to get along, and yes, to SURVIVE, he had to PULL HIS OWN WEIGHT!! This realization actually changed this man, and he became a productive, positive, and more well-liked member of the community.
The other lesson I learned as a child was similar, and I know many children were read the "STORY OF THE LITTLE RED HEN"; the book is still available, and I assume, read to children to this day.
But why should we continue to read this story in this day and age? Today, the lesson learned by the fox, the cat, and the dog does not ring true. In the ending of the tale if it was written to reflect today's society, the fox, the cat, and the dog should enjoy a hearty meal of fresh-baked bread, even though they did not lift a finger to help the little red hen till the soil, plant the seed, tend to the seed, harvest the wheat, beat the wheat into flour, or bake the flour into bread. Even when the little red hen asked for help at each step along the way, the cat, the fox and the dog (or whatever, maybe it was a mouse) just laughed and played, even mocked the little red hen as she toiled, and they did not lift a finger to help her.
But since we know that food is necessary for survival, and in today's society, anything necessary for survival is considered a "basic human right" and to deny food to the hungry, no matter how lazy and selfish, is considered "inhumane".
So, today, the story seems rather ridiculous.
The little red hen should be ashamed of herself.
Even though she worked for weeks to bring the bread home to her children, and even though she was tired and worn out from the task, she should readily hand over enough bread to those that mocked her as she worked, even if it means she and her children will get less, and she should be ashamed of herself if she thinks otherwise.
She would be considered "inhumane" in today's world.Well, I disagree with the ideas put forth today in this regard.
I learned those early lessons, and even as a girl of 4 or 5 years old, it seemed only fair, in my tender years, that hard work should be rewarded and sloth should be punished (at the very LEAST, sloth should NOT BE REWARDED as it is today)In today's society, you do not have to work to live. In fact, if you work today, you support all those lazy men, all those incorrigible animals who mock you as you toil. When you eat, they eat. When you work, they relax. When you cry from exhaustion, they sigh from pleasure and peace.
In fact, in today's world, the HARDER you work, the MORE you support the lazy. Today's society punishes ambition. It punishes hard work. It punishes dependability. A man who works over time ends up taking a much smaller check home than he would if he was not paying for all those men sitting under the shade tree.
The man that struggles with the heavy load must also carry the weight of the sloth who naps in his cool apartment all day. The man who works all day and tries to get some rest at night, better catch 40 winks while the selfish party all night long, because he has to pay for that party, and he has to pay every night for the rest of his working life.I went to school for a long, long time.
I struggled to make ends meet, and still do.
I have stood in line behind many a overweight woman with a cart full of food that I cannot afford, and watched in silence as food stamps paid the bill. (As I paid her bill for the food in her cart that I could not afford to pay for with the cash in my purse which was all that was left after I paid taxes on the money I earned. My tax money, of course, paid for her steaks and her brand name juice while I was only able to get the cheapest hamburger meat, off brand hamburger helper, and no juice at all.)
I saw her get into a late model, shiny cadillac while my broken down car that limped along was long ago old.
This is not a unique story; it really happened, and it happened to me in various forms over the last 30 odd years.
I was a resident in Alabama, and I was in the ER at 3 a.m. taking care of a young woman who had presented at that time of the morning with a headache. She seemed completely comfortable as I examined her; even cheerful. I, on the other hand, was beat. I had been up all day, all night, and I had another full day ahead of me.
When I began taking the social history of this young lady, I inquired, as I was taught to do, about her livlihood. Quite unashamed, actually, she announced, "Oh, I don't work."
"Why?" I queried, "do you go to school?"
"no," laughed the girl of maybe 19,
"Well, how do you get by?" I asked, rather incredulously (and naively)
"Oh, I am disabled," she answered, matter-of-factly,
"Oh?" I said, puzzled that this young, healthy appearing, robust, and articulate girl had some awful, although not evident, disability.
"Why are you disabled?" I asked, with concern.
"Oh," she chatted, smiling, "I am depressed."
Shocked (as I had been depressed my whole life)
I thought, "well, she sure doesn't seem that depressed to me, but what do I know..."
"Well, what, " I asked, "did they give you?"
thinking it would be some sort of partial disability that would not pay the bills,
"100%" she announced, proudly.
I sat there, just astounded, and not quite believing, what she had just said,
"Oh, look," she said, "here comes my boyfriend!"
I turned to see a very tall, very muscular, well-dressed and handsome young man striding towards us.
"He's 100% disabled, too," she said, unqueried,
"Neither one of us can work!" she added, as if it made all the sense in the world to me!
Still, wanting to believe there was some method to this madness, I asked her, with sympathy in my heart, "When was his last seizure?" fully expecting her to say, "Oh, my God, he has them daily! Grand mal seizures! It is horrible!"
But no, God would not grant my tired mind this one small wish.
She did not answer with anything that made it all seem fair.
"Oh, I don't know," she began, "Um, I think it was back when he was about 5 years old."
Now, defeated, but just numb, I asked her, for my own education as a young doctor,
"What medicine is he on?"
"Oh, he hasn't been on meds since he was a little boy. They don't think he needs them anymore. They think he has outgrown them."Now, here were two young, healthy, ABLE BODIED,
people, not working, and living off the backs of other people, and at the ages of 19 and 20, would more than likely be burdening the community for another collective 120 years. and that is if they don't have children.
And that is just one couple.They, of course, did not have to pay for the girl's "emergency" headache that night in the ER,
that was completely free, paid for by medicaid, paid for by taxes. The headache, for which I prescribed over the counter exedrin, probably ended up costing the public over $1000. But, no sweat, and don't even mention the chipper moods of the 100% disabled young couple at 3 a.m.
For them, it was probably supper time. If they sleep till noon, which if I asked, I am sure they would have proudly said that they did (probably after a long night of wild, passionate, disabled sex) then 3 a.m. would be to them what 8 or 9 p.m. is to me.
Again, one tiny little drop of water in a gigantic ocean of abuse heaped on the backs of the gentle people that endorse the coddling of the lazy and the selfish. If I had lingered longer with those two, I am sure they would have mocked me as I worked, as the fox, the cat, and the dog (or whatever) mocked the little red hen. And who could blame them? They have it all figured out.So, no, I do not feel that health care, or any of the other necessities of life, is a basic human right given free of charge to any one who steps up and asks (or rather, demands it).
Just like any other necessity, it needs to be paid for, one way or another.You don't go to Wal-Mart, fill up your buggy, and leave without paying. You would be arrested.
You would be evicted from your home if you did not pay rent, morgtage, or even, property taxes.
If you refused to pay the plumber, the cab driver, or the waste management service, my God, I just cannot even IMAGINE what would happen!
Do you have a pet?
When was the last time your pet went to the vet for free? In case you haven't noticed or are unaware, you do not get your animal back until you pay the bill, in full, unless you are a reliable customer that they trust implicitly.The lights get turned off in your house if you don't pay your bill. So does the water.
If you get evicted from your home, and go through trash cans looking for food, and drink water out of the ditch, if you survive all of that, and you are sleeping on the grass in a park, you could be arrested. Oh, hallelujah!
What joy!
Shelter, food, and water, finally! And for free!
Even lights, air conditioning, my word, even CABLE TV!
And, don't forget, health care!No, my dear, we do not live in a perfect world where no one has to work; everyone eats well and lives comfortably, and if anyone should ever become ill in this perfect world, (which, by definition, should not happen), all will be taken care of by some benevolent force. Hey, sounds like Heaven! (My point exactly)
There is no such thing as a "free lunch", and well there should not be.
Nothing is free in this world.
And when we start handing out things that we need to survive as free simply because they are considered to be "basic human rights" and believe or tell ourselves we would be a cruel society to deny anyone these things, we are truly forgetting the lessons learned long, long ago, by people apparantly much wiser than we are now.
Our whole society will, eventually suffer, and perhaps even fail, if we do not somehow expect people to take personal responsibility for their own well-being (as well as their actions, but that's another lecture) unless they are ABSOLUTELY, OBVIOUSLY, UNEQUIVOCALLY, and UNDENIABLY, BY ALL THE WORKING AND FAIR-MINDED PEOPLE WHO WILL HAVE TO PICK UP THE SLACK CAUSED BY THE SLACKER, deemed incapable (look it up)
of doing so.
Otherwise, get off your A** and pull your own weight, and expect it of your fellow man, or we shall all perish!
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:55
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 5, 2006, at 5:44:49
I'm sorry about your predicament. But not all on Disability desire to be. I for one still have my RN license and desire to work. But I never would jeporadize my patients cause my illness causes me to be forgetful and I have no concentration. Also my profession requires lifting. And because of discs that are ruptured I physically am not allowed to do it from my doctors. Oh my Depression has gone on for l0years. The antidepressants and the combos I've tried do not relieve it. I have agoraphobia. I didn't ask for these things. I am not happy that my docs put me on full Disability. I try daily to do more. So far no luck. Treatment resistant depression doesn't always respond to meds. Isn't the percentage 50 or so? So what to do? Oh I could not tell the truth work in a hospital as here in the city med techs are used in place of RN's. I've asked at all my docs offices and they don't employ RN's. Cost is the reason they say. And as I said I wouldn't jeporidize a patients care until I'm well enough to function in the capacity I did before. So not all of Depressed folks or other illnesses allow people to work. Of course there are always those who will take advantage of free services. But please respect those of us whose illness doesn't allow us to work. No I didn't need a lawyer. My diagnosis was all that was needed for Disability. I have cried as I want nothing more than to go back to caring for others. I'm trying to the best of my ability. Please don't judge others. Thanks Phillipa
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:55
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Phillipa on August 5, 2006, at 20:13:07
I would not place myself in a position to judge others if I felt that I was not competent to do so. I realize, as I did point out, that there are those who are truly disabled. I pointed out that there are those who truly do need, and at times, deserve, the help of others (through no fault or choice of their own.)
But an intelligent woman who has an RN degree, cannot claim 100% disability, in my JUDGEMENT, just because she is forgetful and cannot lift heavy objects.
It takes no memory at all to live in the moment.
If you can read and write, and if you have an education with any memory of what you have learned (addition, subtraction, division, multiplication, alphabetizing, grammar, spelling, and obviously, the ability to type, as well as the ability to respond to a point of view), then you could be say, a medical editor.
You could be a medical transcriptionist. You could use your intelligence and your training to help patients by auditing charts for medicare, attorneys, or heck, even hospitals and doctors.
You could be a triage nurse for an answering service. You could teach. (in the classroom there are no patients, only students that could benefit from your experience, wisdom and knowledge, and you would not have to lift anything heavier than a textbook.)
And these are all just off the top of my head.
I did not need an attorney; I had unsolicited advice from an attorney friend.
I would also not jeapardize patients by practicing with suboptimal concentration and memory skills. I am detail-oriented to the point of annoying some. And believe me, the State Medical Board made me PROVE that I was competent.
Not many people have to prove that to 10 or 12 people who's JOB is to judge not only capability, but whether or not a person should be allowed the PRIVELEDGE to practice medicine.
I am proud to be able to be involved in the care of patients in need. I am energized by helping others who are less healthy and/or less fortunate.
It invigorates me, and I would hate to have to give up medicine forever.
I, too, by the way, have treatment resistant depression.
I have "double depression" which really means I have dysthymic disorder with occasional bouts of major depression.
The major depression really is, for me, controlled by the medicine, but the dysthymia is my baseline.
I can still concentrate, learn, make decisions, be compassionate, etc, I am just never what I would consider completely happy and worry free.
I have been this way as far back as I can remember. It is probably one of the reasons I am a physician. I think a alot. I identify with sadness and fear. I have known how it feels to have lost hope.
Like I said, there are some unfortunate souls, but in my judgement very few, who are truly unable to do work of any kind. Perhaps they were not blessed with intelligence to begin with, so reading, writing and math are out.
Perhaps they also happen to have PTSD and the slightest stimulation sends them into a psychotic panic state.
Perhaps they have paranoid schizophrenia that is so brittle, they are not safe to be in society.
Perhaps they have had a stroke and can no longer understand language, and have been left paralyzed.
There are some people who, but for an unasked for and genuine illness, would be good and productive citizens. These are the folks that I mentioned when I talked about the folks that would have endeared themselves to their community.
Perhaps you are in that group.
I don't have the full picture.
But, I have seen with my own eyes, way, way too many situations in which that is most definitely NOT the case. Certainly, as a previously practicing health professional, you have seen these things as well.
So, yes, as long as I have a head on my shoulders, I do not care how "politically incorrect" it is. Society is not always right.
I am going to stand my ground and say that I am a person of reasonable intelligence and common sense, and I have been around the block a few times, and when something stinks, I will not pretend that it is a rose.
Posted by SLS on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:55
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 5, 2006, at 21:29:36
> I would not place myself in a position to judge others if I felt that I was not competent to do so.
It must be a wonderful feeling indeed that you should judge yourself to be so.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:55
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by SLS on August 5, 2006, at 21:48:04
Merri that wasn't intended for you. I always forget to change the title. I'm so sorry. Love Jan
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:55
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 5, 2006, at 21:29:36
I'm sorry you're so bitter. Please don't judge others. Thank-you. ps I have had no remission of my major depression from any med in l0 yrs. They only work for around 50 percent of people. Yes I'm intelligent. Hot lines are manned by volunteers. I've called the Nursing Board , the people in Nursing at State level that are supposed to help you get off Disability but no help from them. I love nursing period. I was a secretary before that. And if I could be a medical transcriptionist which I have no training in I could nurse. Do you want me to come and work for you? Where are you I'll be there and help you treat patients to the best of my ability. Two depressed people will make a good team.
Posted by Tomatheus on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:56
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 5, 2006, at 16:54:05
> Many of you are probably getting steamed. "What about someone who gets cancer, and can't afford surgery or chemotherapy? What about all the AIDs patients?
> That is why you endear yourself to your community by putting forth an effort, by working hard and being a good person, by helping others in their time of need, by having a loving family who rally around for their sick and their weak in times of trouble.
> In the old days, in the rural parts of the country, folks stuck together for the good of the group. It was a fair and efficient way to run a community.I find it interesting that you chose to write about the virtues of helping others in need and working with others in the community for the good of the group. My question for you is this: What *good* do you think that you've done for the Psycho-Babble community by describing those who cannot realistically hold down a job due to mental illness as "liars," "losers," "fakers," "loafers," or otherwise "lazy" or "selfish" individuals? Seriously, in what way is calling people names helping the individuals in this online community?
Considering the length of your message, you obviously put a good deal of time into writing it. Ask yourself this: Do you think that the time that you put into writing your post was truly well-spent? Were you contributing to the greater good of the Psycho-Babble community by writing what you wrote? Is calling others names an exercise in "personal responsibility" or "being a good person?"
Who's going to "pick up the slack" for any harm that your "lecture" (your word, not mine) might have caused? And yes, I do think that posting a message that describes those with mental disabilities as "self-centered losers," "slackers," et cetera on a board devoted to support and education has great potential to cause harm. But in all likelihood, you'll never see any of the harm that will probably result from your "lecture," much less do anything to help those who might be harmed.
You've definitely demonstrated your ability to lecture others about the virtues of personal responsibility? But based on what you've written, I'm not convinced that you're quite as well-versed when it comes to putting personal responsibility into practice.
Tomatheus
Posted by Tomatheus on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:57
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Tomatheus on August 5, 2006, at 23:11:17
> You've definitely demonstrated your ability to lecture others about the virtues of personal responsibility?
I meant to end that sentence with a period instead of a question mark. I'm not much of a Freudian, but perhaps it was a "Freudian slip" on my part.
Tomatheus
Posted by notfred on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:57
In reply to cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 4, 2006, at 21:26:37
> Family Medicine doctors get paid squat, just to let you know, and I am barely making ends meet. And I live sparsely.
You do not sound like any doc I know.
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:58
In reply to Oops, posted by Tomatheus on August 5, 2006, at 23:19:12
By the way Dr. Bob the moderator of Babble or the deputies do not put up with people being uncivil to others. You might want to mull this over. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:58
In reply to Re Kenlenn » Tomatheus, posted by Phillipa on August 5, 2006, at 23:42:22
Above message for Kylenn only. Sorry I mispelled your name. Must be my lack of concentration . Phillipa
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:58
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 5, 2006, at 16:54:05
Hello kylenn.
I don't really know what to say about your post. I'm sorry I seem to have hit a sore spot with you. We just have differing opinions I guess. I've just been bought up on European values, particulary Scandivian values (in fact I'm moving to Finland in September) which as you may or may not be aware of, have the best welfare states in the world. As such, it is very hard for me to comprehend how it is in America. I am geniunely shocked to find out that you have to pay so much for your meds, or that your healthcare is not free, or that you have to pay $30,000 in college tuition. These things cost next to nothing here in the UK, and in other European countries also.
For instance, it is actually against the law in Finland to charge any amount of money for education, including college - yes thats right, they have no fees for university in Finland including medicine and law, and that applies to foreign students studying there too. But then, we pay alot more tax. So when I hear about college tuition in the states costing, say, $30,000/year, I find it unbelieveable!
I still do think that healthcare is a basic human right and should be free (or at least affordable) to everyone, we'll have to disagree on that one.
Following on from that, you say that therefore food, sheltar, water etc should be free because they are basic human rights too. Well they are basic human rights, at least here in the UK.
Its illegal, for instance, for a water company to cut off a persons water supply, even if they haven't paid their bills. For that matter, I pay about $10/month for water/sewage. We have systems in place here which will guarantee that your rent will be paid, if, for example, you lose your job/are ill/etc. Supermarket food is not so expensive here. It costs maybe $1 for a loaf of bread. If people have problems paying private rent, we have social housing here.
I really don't mind paying tax to support these things because I know that they are there if I ever need them. I don't think we should be so naive to suppose that we will always have a good job, we will always have a roof over our heads. Sometimes really unfortuate things can happen to us through no fault of our own.
I also think its a question of equalness, of trying to, at least, level the playing field for everyone. You give me the impression that all you need to do to succeed in life is to work hard. Okay fair enough. But that doesn't take into account intrinstic factors that are beyond our control. Say, for instance, you are not very bright, pretty low IQ actually. Thats not your fault surely? So you can work your *ss off, say cleaning streets or whatever. You could be doing the very best you can, and still earn pittance.
But its not your fault - so then, who will pay for your expensive healthcare when you get ill? You're obviously earning pittance (you don't have a national minimum wage do you? Here in the UK its set to around $9/hour), so you can't save for unforeseeable things in the future like illness, diasters, or even things like college. But yet, you're working your *ss off, you're providing a valuable service to the community in cleaning the steets. Is that fair then, that you get penalised?
Is it fair that you, kylenn, get penalised with medication costs beyond your means, because you suffer from a condition that is no fault of your own?? Things like free healthcare are about protecting the most vunerable people in society. Its not about the well-off paying taxes. Its about the much less fortunate. Leveling the playing field, so that you have access to the same basic services as the rich.
Do you kinda get what I mean? I don't want to quibble over the finer points of my post. We have totally differing perspectives. I mean, I've grown up not knowing anything different, I've always assumed healthcare and things like that to be free and to have a pretty good welfare state in place. I get the feeling that you don't think its the job of the state to support disadvantaged people, but thats how it is here in the UK/Finland (the two European countries I know they most). I'm not entirely clear on who you think will support disadvantaged people.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, no hard feeling, eh.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:58
In reply to Re: cost of drugs Kylenn » kylenn, posted by Phillipa on August 5, 2006, at 22:50:22
Thanks for the offer and I agree with you on both points.
Yes, I am bitter and yes, two depressed people would make a good team
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:58
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Tomatheus on August 5, 2006, at 23:11:17
Again, my point has been completely missed. Am I really speaking that far over your head?
Obviously, (and I did not leave this detail out, I just didn't repeat it over and over, hoping stating the obvious once would be enough)
there are those who CANNOT work; I am merely pointing out that there are MANY who can, but prefer to take the easy (and dishonest) way out.
I know this to be true. I don't know the actual percentages, and I am certainly not saying the problem lies only in the community of those with mental illness. Quite the opposite, most of those, in my experience, are NOT claiming a mental illness as the reason for their disability; pain is a much easier thing to embellish, and more socially acceptable.
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:59
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by notfred on August 5, 2006, at 23:37:10
Really? and just how many that you know have divulged their true net worth?
I lived a life that others would have thought luxurious until that house of cards crashed around me.
I lived beyond my means on credit, and, just guessing, but I bet I know more docs than you do.
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:59
In reply to Re Kenlenn » Tomatheus, posted by Phillipa on August 5, 2006, at 23:42:22
Look back at the posts; who is being uncivil?
I am stating an opinion aimed at no one in particular.
The responses, as I expected, are hardly civil, and are pointed DIRECTLY at me.
I guess I touched a nerve.
I knew I would.
I want people to open their eyes.
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:00
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 6, 2006, at 10:50:06
But I believe you did insinuate the mentally ill when you spoke of the girl and her boyfriend in the ER. Looks can be deceiving. My husband says no one call see outwardly that I'm anxious and depressed I've just learned in l0 years to be a good actress. And then I crumple when out of the eyes of others. Phillipa
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:01
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 6, 2006, at 5:20:47
Thanks, the most intelligent reply yet!!!
You make many valid points. Even playing field; I am all for that.
I think the big problem in this country may just be in the way that we are taxed; it creates a weird double standard that can't help but foster bitterness among the most highly taxed, which happens to be the upper middle class (I think)
(Admittedly, not sure, I just feel so victimized and literally everyone I talk to feels the same way if they are in a similar situation.)
Basically, I am against the income tax.
If there were a Federal Sales Tax to replace the income tax, it would truly be a level playing field.
Instead of penalizing earnings, penalize frivolous spending. Food, water, electricity, and medical care would be tax free and perhaps even universally available, but things like second homes, luxury cars (say any car over a certain price, like $25,000), yachts (who needs those?)
extravagant jewelry, Disneyworld tickets, first class air fare, cigarettes, liquor, hopefully you get my point.
And make the rules for qualifying for "free" care be less fuzzy. Normally, I am big into grayness, but not when it comes to free money. The truly needy should be taken care of by the society.
And the truly hardworking should not be unduly burdened by the cost.
Do you realize that in this country there is a HUGE black market economy? It has arisen out of a need since the income tax system is so unfair.
When the income tax was initiated, early in the 20th century, it was meant to be a temporary stop-gap measure to cover a shortage in federal funds. It was never supposed to go over 5%, and it was meant to expire after 5 years.
Well, as usual, good intentions.
The criminal community runs their business tax free. A drug kingpin, all the way down to his street corner pushers, make all the money they make, and it is tax free.
If we could do away with taxing the honest, hard-working people, and tax spending, especially for non-essential items, and a sin tax for booze, tobacco, gambling profits, and while we are at it, prostitution and marijuana should be legaized, regulated, and TAXED. And under a fair tax, they would be taxed more heavily since they are actually detrimental to personal health and well-being, as well as detrimental to families and society.
In my idea, the federal tax system would tax spending in levels:
essentials would be tax-free
non-essentials (anything from potted plants to make-up) would be taxed at 10%
luxuries would be taxed at a higher rate, say 20%
sins would be taxed even higher, say 30%
This would more than make up for doing away with the federal income tax, and it would be way, way more fair.
The only people that would (or should) be opposed to it are the people that would be hit hardest--the very rich and the criminal element.
The very poor should not be affected since essentials would remain tax free.
But, it is the very rich that control the congress. So, unless there is a loud and unified voice from the electorate, things will remain status quo, and unfair.
Then, the workers that currently are paid "under the table" would suddenly not be law-breakers.
And overtime would truly be rewarding financially.
And, yes, things that may be gifts of God would be more lucrative if used properly (studying and working hard).
Incidentally, people like movie stars and pro-football players who have gifts from God or from Aaron Spelling, take your pick, (and that comes from the it's not what you know, it's who you know school of thought and is not meant as a personal slight of Mr. Spelling--disclaimer placed for the benefit of those who need more of an explanation than just me being cute)
would pay more for their mink stoles and presidential suites at the Four Seasons, private jets and top shelf champagne!I know I would be less bitter about my tax dollars going towards the undeserving if I knew that I really was on a level playing field.
Just a thought.
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:01
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Phillipa on August 6, 2006, at 11:22:22
I do not believe that the girl in the ER or her robust and muscular boyfriend would qualify, by even the most lax rules, as 100% disabled.
She was completely relaxed and lucid, and being in a hospital, she did not need to act.And by the way,
I consider myself to be an Oscar Quality actress
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:02
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 6, 2006, at 10:52:15
I don't believe in using my credit cards. I live on my diability. Before I was ill my husband and I invested in real estate and are living off the proceeds of that. By investing I mean buying small houses in good locations and when we sold them making a profit. We lived at the beach for two years. A lot I saw was 45,000. Less than a year later someone called us and offered us $95,000. We don't live a life of luxary just necessities. Like food, shelter etc. Why did you as a doc live a life of luxary on credit. I think my youngest Daughter is still paying off her student loan she works as a legal assistant and is 32. It takes a long time to pay off even student loans. And she leaned the hard way that manicures, expensive haircuts she couldn't afford. She no longer does those things. Thankfully she is very healthy both medically and Mental health wise. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:04
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 6, 2006, at 11:26:05
That's a scarey thought to me. I know some docs do abuse drugs and are working overtime. But to think they are that depressed that they are acting is truley scarey to me. Running a code? And with Aids and othe STD's why do you want to legalize it? I know there wouldn't be less crime as rapes are committed by men who they say are not doing it for sexual gratification but anger towards women in general. Phillipa
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:06
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by kylenn on August 6, 2006, at 11:23:41
Hello again.
Yes I understand what you are saying. Although we have completely different tax systems. Wow, people here would long for income tax to be as low as 5%. I'm not too sure of the finer points of our tax system, but here in the UK we get our income taxed at around 25%. Yes the government takes this away before we even see our paychecks. In the Scando countries, its even higher. Sweden, I think, taxes its citizens closer to the 50% mark.
But you know, its made a society (in Finland anyway) whereby you are perfectly safe to walk the streets on your own as a 17 year old girl in a capital city at 11.30pm at night. I'm not sure I could say that of America, certainly not in a down town area or even here in the UK.
We also get *all* of our goods we buy taxed at 17.5%. Actually, they tax booze and cigarettes much higher (and perhaps other things too like luxuary cars), and a few essential items such as bread and milk and childrens apparel, they don't tax at all.
So we have income tax and sales tax. But, its no so bad. To be honest, they are quite strict here on who gets disability etc.
I don't know, its difficult. On the one hand you have America with its 'live free or die' menality and not much in the way of state care, and the other extreme you have the Scando counties with their 50% income tax and whatnot. But the thing is, nothing is free, as we well know, and the Scando counties have alot more free stuff (heatlhcare, childcare, tertiary education etc) but they pay alot of tax. Things in the US ain't free but you pay next to nothing in tax (well, compared to the Scando countries at least).
Its just about how much you want the state to intervene in your life, and 'take care' of you.
I see your point and bitterness about those who aren't really ill/whatever and abuse the system. Yeah we have that too here, and the bitter people. I guess its always going to happen. Personally, I would rather see them use the system, than they become homeless, drug ridden etc. I mean, think about it, a certain amount of sercurity means that they are off the streets making them safer for us folks. Sort of.
People in finland, for example, don't mind paying their high tax, because there is a level playing field. Did you know, that they don't have private schools in Finland? They have the best educational system in the world apparently (according to the Washing Post http://blog.washingtonpost.com/finlanddiary/ ) There is no unfair start to life because your parents have money. So people don't mind.
Anyway, well, yeah. I don't know what the answer is. Set up your own political party??
Yeah and it must be rather infuritating to know that the the US government is wasting billions, if not trillions, of tax money funding the war in Iraq. Certainly we're paying billions of our UK tax money for the war in the middle east, and nobody even wants a war here! Now that is something I am bitter about, not the freeloaders of the system. I bet the war in Iraq is costing much much much more to the tax payer in America than the freeloaders are.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:07
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 6, 2006, at 13:12:01
Hello yet again!
I really urge you to read the Washington Post's full article, here is the direct link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/05/AR2005080502015.html
I think you'll find it interesting and illumitating!!!
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:07
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 6, 2006, at 13:25:57
Meri-Tuuli,
Thanks for the nice article.
Finland does sound lovely.
Little bit creeped out by "groupthink" though!
kylenn
Posted by kylenn on August 8, 2006, at 10:07:08
In reply to Re: cost of drugs » kylenn, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 6, 2006, at 13:12:01
Meri
Hi
Yes, I, too, would end the interference in Iraq if I could. We should stay out of the middle east, I think.
I am not military minded, although I did grow up as the dependant of an Air Force career enlistee.
My first husband spent 4 years in the U.S. Army.I was very scared after 911 for several weeks.
I didn't mean to mislead you about our taxes; currently we are taxed at about 30% on our income by the federal govt.
The initial income tax was 5%. It has grown a bit since then.
I am very attuned to what I see as fairness or unfairness.
I would rather have people in govt housing than foraging on the streets. It just rubs me the wrong way when I know that there are people as capable as I am of getting up and going to work every day, but they don't.
The people who don't work and get free medical care in this country under the Medicaid system are, generally speaking, the worst kind of patient.
Although they truly pay nothing for health care, not even taxes on income or sales taxes etc,
they are almost always the most demanding, the least compliant, the least grateful, and the most likely to sue.
It is tough not to get bitter.
I wish I wasn't bitter, but I am.
Please do not think, though, that I spend every waking moment thinking about and grousing about this type of thing! I don't.
But when the thoughts get triggered by whatever, and if I have a chance to start rambling on about it, well, it is an itch I cannot resist scratching!
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