Posted by kylenn on August 5, 2006, at 16:54:05 [reposted on August 8, 2006, at 10:06:55 | original URL]
In reply to Re: cost of drugs, posted by Meri-Tuuli on August 5, 2006, at 5:44:49
Actually, as a physician, I feel quite strongly that health care is definitely NOT a "basic human right".
Do you need water to survive? Can you live long without it? How does it feel to die of thirst?
Well, is water a "basic human right?"
What about food? Do YOU need to eat to live?
Is YOUR food free? Well, it should be, should it not? After all, if you need it to live, shouldn't it be a "basic human right" and be free?
What about shelter? Can you live out doors with not even a vinyl tent to shelter you from the elements? Who knows where I can go to live for free? After all, I could easily freeze to death, or be mugged, or die of heat exhaustion without shelter. It should be a "basic human right."
In many parts of my country, people consider air conditioning necessary for survival. The ability to refridgerate, store, and cook food is quite necessary for survival in the modern day. Therefore, electricity should be a "basic human right" and should be free.
In fact, take the ability to travel from say, the grocery store back to the house. How can you mangage without some form of transportation these days? Is your transportation free? Could you live without it? Next time you take a cab, decline to pay the driver; this is your right. See how well that goes over.
Do you have a bicycle? Unless you stole it, it was not free. A horse? How much does his feed cost? It shouldn't cost a dime.
When you go to the store next to buy sundries like soap and bread and milk, try telling the check out girl that what is in your cart is necessary, and therefore, as a "basic human right" should be free, so you will not be paying for your purchases. See how well that goes over.
I wonder if she will call the manager. I wonder if he'll call the police. I wonder if you will be able to take your "basic human rights" home with you?
Oh, and next time your toilets overflow and you call the plumber, let him fix your toilets so that raw sewage is not flowing into your bedroom, and then tell him that since it is definitely a threat to your health and survival, good plumbing is a "basic human right" and you shall not be writing him a check for his services. Do you think he will simply nod, and agree with you, and be on his way with a smile?
And when your car breaks down, make sure to let the garage mechanic know how you absolutely need your car to operate properly in order to drive to work, because without that paycheck, you do not know how you will survive.
Otherwise, he may expect you to pay for his services; he may not realize that a properly functioning automobile is, for you, a "basic human right"
When you fill up at the service station, don't worry about the price of gas; why should you?
You need that gas; it is another "basic human right".
The government pays for health care in the UK and in Canada, and in most countries, things like police, fire, and military protection are services that are paid by the government. The government also manages things like our roads and passes laws to protect the environment, in fact , the government itself, designed to manage society and to protect it, is paid for by taxes. I suppose the government, and all of the various beaurocracies that arise from it are considered to be "basic human rights".
"Well", you might respond, "that is what tax is for; to provide for the things to all people that are necessary for survival and safety of the people; and that in the UK and in Canada, the health care system is paid for out of taxes for this very reason".
Well, then, why don't we just let the government handle all of those other things that I mentioned above? Food, water, clothing, shelter, electricity, transportation, sanitation, plumbing, electrical, mechanical and carpenter services relating to all of the above?
Every little nagging thing that comes up, and in some way, if not taken care of, could jeapardize our health, our safety, or our lives should be of little or no cost to a person. Let the government manage all these necesseties since they are all "basic human rights" and we should not have to worry our little heads about these things; they should be forthcoming automatically with little or no effort (and certainly, no worry or concern) on our parts.
And so, if something is a "basic human right" because it is necessary for survival, then I certainly feel that food, water, shelter and clothing would come BEFORE health care. Sanitation would come before health care as well. These items are MUCH MUCH more important for survival on a DAY to DAY basis (and it would follow, therefore, that they would qualify over and above health care as "basic human rights") It should, therefore, by the same reasoning, all be paid for by the government (out of taxes, which the people pay to the government).
So, we should all just turn over our whole paychecks to the government so that they could take care of the costs of things that are necessary for survival, these "basic human rights".
Perhaps we could keep a small percentage of the money left over for luxury items, like pillows and chocolate.
And for all those folks who do not work because of some "disability" (which has come to include such awful, undeserved, unavoidable and irreparable maladies such as laziness, sloth, selfishness, and drug addiction; as well as, come to think of it, hypochondriasis, malingering, conning, liars, losers, and fakers, etc, etc) Don't worry! You will eventually get all you need to live comfortably (food, water, shelter, clothing, electricity, sanitation, etc) for free, or the government will issue you free money to pay for these things. Be patient ( I know it must be awfully hard, having to wait and all) But just keep going back to the SSI office with your forms and your lawyers (that are free since you don't pay until he gets your government check for you). Eventually, you won't EVER have to work again for ANY of these things! It will all be free, and the burden for these services will be carried forever on the backs of those who are too stupid to realize that they don't HAVE to work to get all the things necessary for survival. As "basic human rights", these things are completely free, provided by the government, whether you or I or anybody else works or doesn't work.
Would it not be cruel to deny anyone these things? What kind of society allows its people to go without the necessities of life?
Able bodied folks should not HAVE to work; life is precious! Any life! If a person wants to sit back and play video games, eat, sleep, have sex (and make babies), all day, every day, for the rest of their lives, it should be their choice. But DON'T deny them the things that they need to live! They need food, water, shelter, electricity (kind of hard to play video games without that), and, yes, eventually, even health care to live. These are all "basic human rights" that no one should EVER be denied for ANY reason!
Many of you are probably getting steamed. "What about someone who gets cancer, and can't afford surgery or chemotherapy? What about all the AIDs patients?
That is why you endear yourself to your community by putting forth an effort, by working hard and being a good person, by helping others in their time of need, by having a loving family who rally around for their sick and their weak in times of trouble.
In the old days, in the rural parts of the country, folks stuck together for the good of the group. It was a fair and efficient way to run a community.
When a new couple got married, all the able and nearly able-bodied men got together to build them their house and their barn. Everyone chipped in.
The women cooked and tended the children.
Labor was divided and conquered by the group as a whole.
When the storm came and destroyed old Farmer Joe's barn, the young groom would join all the other men and help old Joe rebuild his farm. The women of the community would come from miles away on foot or on horse back with their children and their baked goods to donate to the family in crisis.
When the old widow became to old and feeble to tend to her home, she would be cared for by the community. The women and young girls would take turns looking after her needs, at her own house, and sometimes, she would be taken in.
The old doctor in the community was supported by the community for the good of the community, much in the same way the preachers were.
Paying what you could pay, or providing needed services for to return for his medical services.
No one would think of blaming the doctor if the youngest son in the family took diptheria and died, because everyone knew the heart of the doctor was a good heart, and he had a good mind, and he did all he could do.
Quacks were eventually run out of town, I am sure.
But ever person in the community did their part.
Personal responsibilty is a fading and nearly extinct civilized human quality these days.
The truly ill were cared for.
The lazy, the loafers, the thieves and the otherwise self-centered losers were not tolerated, and they certainly were not supported by, the community.
I believe that if a person has lived a good and productive and generally honest and kind life up to the time that they take ill, the community that they live in will rally around, and they will be cared for, (and so will the doctor who cares for them during their illness).
But a person that has lived a selfish life, has not contributed to the community but has, in fact, taken advantage of and undermined the community, should be abandoned in their time of need. They have lived a life in which they cared for no one, so now, no one shall care for them.
It is biblical. It is right. It is fair.
The innocent and the righteous will not be abandoned by their family, their community, their society.
The guilty ones shall be, and should be.
If they have shown kindness to even one person, that will be enough. That person will step in to return the favor of kindness and do what he can for the ailing undeserving.
If not one person has experienced a drop of kindness from this person, what else should he expect from the world he so despised?What about Christian beliefs, that we should be as Jesus was and love the least of us?
This world does not have an infinite amount of resources to constantly supply and support a society that becomes dysfunctional to the point our society has because of this type of thinking.
Eventually, there will be a final straw. And the whole society will fall beneath the burden of the wicked that expected (and got) a free ride.It's reality, folks. Wake up and smell the coffee. This ride will end. We have stuck our collective heads in the sand on this issue for too long now. This type of thinking has GOT to end, for the good of the whole of society.
Just tell me this: when the balance of those on the dole becomes greater than those paying for the dole, what will happen then? What will become of all these "rights?" What will become of all these fuzzy and warm ways of operating a society?
Think about it for just half a second before you reply.
And don't say "that will never happen"
I didn't used to, but now, I think about kicking back and taking it easy for the rest of my life myself every now and then. Why shouldn't I?
What keeps me from doing it? I am not sure.
Morals maybe? Ethics maybe? A sense of personal responsibilty, maybe?
What about you? Are you getting what you need to live? Are you working for it? Or, are you "disabled"? Does your MENTAL ILLNESS really mean that you absolutely can do NOTHING to earn your keep? Or are you struggling and soldiering on, as am I? As are all of us who get up early everday, put one foot in front of the other, go out the front door, and go to work?
We have all heard stories about blind folks working and living independantly. We have heard about people with serious debilitating illness making a living. Folks with Down's syndrome working in some way and paying for some, if not all, of their own basic needs.
Why? They would ALL qualify for the dole!
Because something good inside them drives them.
Something right in their souls drives them to do what they can to contribute to their community.
But, if these truly disabled folks wanted to (and it would be within their rights to do so), they could give up. They could sit back and watch the sun rise and the sun set on their back porch with their iced tea every day for the rest of their lives, and no one, not even I, would have a thing to say against it.But, they don't. Why not?
In fact, why are we all not taking it easy in life? Why are we all not finding a way to "waste away again in Margaritaville"?
Why don't we all just sit back and expect all the "basic human rights" to be made available to us forever after, with absolutely no indebtedness to the community on our part?
I am a person that has worked hard all my life. As a little girl, I went to school. I did not skip class. I never cheated. I studied hard. I didn't commit crimes. When I was 11, I started babysitting to pay for my little extras because I knew I did not DESERVE a coke or a candy bar or to go to the movies. But, if I worked for it, I would have earned the right to indulge in that way. As I reached my teens, I worked after school and on weekends. I didn't do drugs or smoke. I stayed in school. I paid my own way. Later on, I paid my childrens' ways. I never got on the "dole". And, after 23 years of intense education, single parenthood, and sometimes what seemed like impossible work, I finally have realized, all I ever needed to do to have food, water, shelter, etc. was, by golly, take two or three years, perhaps in my late teens, and apply for disability for, oh, I don't know, DEPRESSION?
Oh, and don't worry, I have accumulated over the years more diagnoses if I need them; and if I hadn't, I sure know how to get them, now! If only I had known 23 years ago!!
Maybe, just maybe, I would not even BE depressed anymore!! I wouldn't NEED to come up with hundreds of dollars every month! I would probably have no worries, no stress, and NO DEPRESSION if all my needs were taken care of by others, without question!
And I wouldn't have to worry about my children, because they would already be on their way to "independence" by getting SSI checks, government housing, free health care and meds,
etc, of their own!When I was very small, I was taught a couple of lessons that have stayed with me all of these years; as a small child, I took these lessons to heart.
The first was the story of the pilgrims during the early days of this country. Many, many people came over and had to make their way in the rugged and wild new world. They had to work together in order to survive. Even small amoutns of chaos and just a few folks indulging in sloth would result in complete annihilation and death of each and every person in the community.
They had to plant seeds, tend to livestock, build shelters, manage the children, tend to the ill, cook the food, repair things, defend the group, etc, every day, all day long, for decades and decades on end. These people were industrious, and they knew that everyone should pitch in. In fact, the welfare of the whole group was jeapardized if they did not ALL work together. It was expected that every able bodied (and many feeble-bodied) folks should all pitch in.
But one man just sat all day in the shade of a tree, napping or otherwise goofing off, as the others worked around him all day long. He did not budge when he saw a man struggling with a heavy load. He did not whistle when an unwary man was in danger, because he too busy daydreaming, or perhaps the sun was in his eyes, so he had turned his back to rest more comfortably. So, when it came time to sit down for supper, this man was unpleasantly surprised to find there was no seat at the table for him! The rest of the group would not stand for his lazy and selfish behavior. Each man was expected to work if he wished to eat. This was not negotiable, and the others did not find his selfishness amusing or endearing in anyway. It simply increased the burden of the others, and put every man, woman, and child at risk for their lives. The rest of the folk had NO intention of allowing the lazy man to claim food, water, shelter, or anything else as something he DESERVED as a "basic human right" that he did NOT HAVE TO WORK FOR!!!.The lazy man quickly learned that to eat, to get along, and yes, to SURVIVE, he had to PULL HIS OWN WEIGHT!! This realization actually changed this man, and he became a productive, positive, and more well-liked member of the community.
The other lesson I learned as a child was similar, and I know many children were read the "STORY OF THE LITTLE RED HEN"; the book is still available, and I assume, read to children to this day.
But why should we continue to read this story in this day and age? Today, the lesson learned by the fox, the cat, and the dog does not ring true. In the ending of the tale if it was written to reflect today's society, the fox, the cat, and the dog should enjoy a hearty meal of fresh-baked bread, even though they did not lift a finger to help the little red hen till the soil, plant the seed, tend to the seed, harvest the wheat, beat the wheat into flour, or bake the flour into bread. Even when the little red hen asked for help at each step along the way, the cat, the fox and the dog (or whatever, maybe it was a mouse) just laughed and played, even mocked the little red hen as she toiled, and they did not lift a finger to help her.
But since we know that food is necessary for survival, and in today's society, anything necessary for survival is considered a "basic human right" and to deny food to the hungry, no matter how lazy and selfish, is considered "inhumane".
So, today, the story seems rather ridiculous.
The little red hen should be ashamed of herself.
Even though she worked for weeks to bring the bread home to her children, and even though she was tired and worn out from the task, she should readily hand over enough bread to those that mocked her as she worked, even if it means she and her children will get less, and she should be ashamed of herself if she thinks otherwise.
She would be considered "inhumane" in today's world.Well, I disagree with the ideas put forth today in this regard.
I learned those early lessons, and even as a girl of 4 or 5 years old, it seemed only fair, in my tender years, that hard work should be rewarded and sloth should be punished (at the very LEAST, sloth should NOT BE REWARDED as it is today)In today's society, you do not have to work to live. In fact, if you work today, you support all those lazy men, all those incorrigible animals who mock you as you toil. When you eat, they eat. When you work, they relax. When you cry from exhaustion, they sigh from pleasure and peace.
In fact, in today's world, the HARDER you work, the MORE you support the lazy. Today's society punishes ambition. It punishes hard work. It punishes dependability. A man who works over time ends up taking a much smaller check home than he would if he was not paying for all those men sitting under the shade tree.
The man that struggles with the heavy load must also carry the weight of the sloth who naps in his cool apartment all day. The man who works all day and tries to get some rest at night, better catch 40 winks while the selfish party all night long, because he has to pay for that party, and he has to pay every night for the rest of his working life.I went to school for a long, long time.
I struggled to make ends meet, and still do.
I have stood in line behind many a overweight woman with a cart full of food that I cannot afford, and watched in silence as food stamps paid the bill. (As I paid her bill for the food in her cart that I could not afford to pay for with the cash in my purse which was all that was left after I paid taxes on the money I earned. My tax money, of course, paid for her steaks and her brand name juice while I was only able to get the cheapest hamburger meat, off brand hamburger helper, and no juice at all.)
I saw her get into a late model, shiny cadillac while my broken down car that limped along was long ago old.
This is not a unique story; it really happened, and it happened to me in various forms over the last 30 odd years.
I was a resident in Alabama, and I was in the ER at 3 a.m. taking care of a young woman who had presented at that time of the morning with a headache. She seemed completely comfortable as I examined her; even cheerful. I, on the other hand, was beat. I had been up all day, all night, and I had another full day ahead of me.
When I began taking the social history of this young lady, I inquired, as I was taught to do, about her livlihood. Quite unashamed, actually, she announced, "Oh, I don't work."
"Why?" I queried, "do you go to school?"
"no," laughed the girl of maybe 19,
"Well, how do you get by?" I asked, rather incredulously (and naively)
"Oh, I am disabled," she answered, matter-of-factly,
"Oh?" I said, puzzled that this young, healthy appearing, robust, and articulate girl had some awful, although not evident, disability.
"Why are you disabled?" I asked, with concern.
"Oh," she chatted, smiling, "I am depressed."
Shocked (as I had been depressed my whole life)
I thought, "well, she sure doesn't seem that depressed to me, but what do I know..."
"Well, what, " I asked, "did they give you?"
thinking it would be some sort of partial disability that would not pay the bills,
"100%" she announced, proudly.
I sat there, just astounded, and not quite believing, what she had just said,
"Oh, look," she said, "here comes my boyfriend!"
I turned to see a very tall, very muscular, well-dressed and handsome young man striding towards us.
"He's 100% disabled, too," she said, unqueried,
"Neither one of us can work!" she added, as if it made all the sense in the world to me!
Still, wanting to believe there was some method to this madness, I asked her, with sympathy in my heart, "When was his last seizure?" fully expecting her to say, "Oh, my God, he has them daily! Grand mal seizures! It is horrible!"
But no, God would not grant my tired mind this one small wish.
She did not answer with anything that made it all seem fair.
"Oh, I don't know," she began, "Um, I think it was back when he was about 5 years old."
Now, defeated, but just numb, I asked her, for my own education as a young doctor,
"What medicine is he on?"
"Oh, he hasn't been on meds since he was a little boy. They don't think he needs them anymore. They think he has outgrown them."Now, here were two young, healthy, ABLE BODIED,
people, not working, and living off the backs of other people, and at the ages of 19 and 20, would more than likely be burdening the community for another collective 120 years. and that is if they don't have children.
And that is just one couple.They, of course, did not have to pay for the girl's "emergency" headache that night in the ER,
that was completely free, paid for by medicaid, paid for by taxes. The headache, for which I prescribed over the counter exedrin, probably ended up costing the public over $1000. But, no sweat, and don't even mention the chipper moods of the 100% disabled young couple at 3 a.m.
For them, it was probably supper time. If they sleep till noon, which if I asked, I am sure they would have proudly said that they did (probably after a long night of wild, passionate, disabled sex) then 3 a.m. would be to them what 8 or 9 p.m. is to me.
Again, one tiny little drop of water in a gigantic ocean of abuse heaped on the backs of the gentle people that endorse the coddling of the lazy and the selfish. If I had lingered longer with those two, I am sure they would have mocked me as I worked, as the fox, the cat, and the dog (or whatever) mocked the little red hen. And who could blame them? They have it all figured out.So, no, I do not feel that health care, or any of the other necessities of life, is a basic human right given free of charge to any one who steps up and asks (or rather, demands it).
Just like any other necessity, it needs to be paid for, one way or another.You don't go to Wal-Mart, fill up your buggy, and leave without paying. You would be arrested.
You would be evicted from your home if you did not pay rent, morgtage, or even, property taxes.
If you refused to pay the plumber, the cab driver, or the waste management service, my God, I just cannot even IMAGINE what would happen!
Do you have a pet?
When was the last time your pet went to the vet for free? In case you haven't noticed or are unaware, you do not get your animal back until you pay the bill, in full, unless you are a reliable customer that they trust implicitly.The lights get turned off in your house if you don't pay your bill. So does the water.
If you get evicted from your home, and go through trash cans looking for food, and drink water out of the ditch, if you survive all of that, and you are sleeping on the grass in a park, you could be arrested. Oh, hallelujah!
What joy!
Shelter, food, and water, finally! And for free!
Even lights, air conditioning, my word, even CABLE TV!
And, don't forget, health care!No, my dear, we do not live in a perfect world where no one has to work; everyone eats well and lives comfortably, and if anyone should ever become ill in this perfect world, (which, by definition, should not happen), all will be taken care of by some benevolent force. Hey, sounds like Heaven! (My point exactly)
There is no such thing as a "free lunch", and well there should not be.
Nothing is free in this world.
And when we start handing out things that we need to survive as free simply because they are considered to be "basic human rights" and believe or tell ourselves we would be a cruel society to deny anyone these things, we are truly forgetting the lessons learned long, long ago, by people apparantly much wiser than we are now.
Our whole society will, eventually suffer, and perhaps even fail, if we do not somehow expect people to take personal responsibility for their own well-being (as well as their actions, but that's another lecture) unless they are ABSOLUTELY, OBVIOUSLY, UNEQUIVOCALLY, and UNDENIABLY, BY ALL THE WORKING AND FAIR-MINDED PEOPLE WHO WILL HAVE TO PICK UP THE SLACK CAUSED BY THE SLACKER, deemed incapable (look it up)
of doing so.
Otherwise, get off your A** and pull your own weight, and expect it of your fellow man, or we shall all perish!
poster:kylenn
thread:674781
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20060610/msgs/674782.html