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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:41
In reply to whoops, that's God not Goddess (nm), posted by Gabbi~G on July 21, 2006, at 14:03:31
Tks Gabbi~G for explaination there.
You totally understood what I'd meant in saying 'being destroyed'.
Wish I'd taken theology (I wanted to.) before I married him and married hIm and met Him and married hiM and met h_im.
"Angel huddle, group hug, move in" (Talking to myself and gesturing)(?)
HeatDeranged, cf
Posted by Jost on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:41
In reply to What I feel sums up the Mid East situation, posted by Jay on July 20, 2006, at 8:48:11
I'd like to respond to a line of commentary in the thread "What I feel sums up the Mid East"
First, Jay says ' I am shocked beyond belief at the *DEATH* in Lebanon, Iraq, and Afghanastan (sic), especially of the innocent civillians by "soldiers"'
To this, I ask:
I assume you are also shocked by the deaths of Israeli civilians, at the hands of suicide bombers, as they sit in cafes, markets, weddings?
The suicide bombers do not just decide one day to put on a vest of bombs and go to Israel. They are chosen, trained, and armed, and instructed where to go, by Hizbollah and Hamas.
There is, to this day, continuous shelling of Israeli towns near the Lebanese border, and the flying of unmanned drones, programmed to make as loud a noise as possible over towns in Israel to create as great a feeling of ongoing horror and dread (as specifically claimed by Nasrullah), by Hizbollah.
I'm going to assume Jay and all of you care about all innocents in any society. Yet when I read a sentence that excludes Israelis, I wonder: does Jay consider Israeli civilians, who, in case you've forgotten have offered peace agreements that have been rejected, to be less innocent than citizens of these other countries?
Then,
Jay refers to the God Shiva (pronounced "shee-vah") and destruction. The situation in the middle east reminds him of a passage from the Bhagavad-Gita.
Then there are a series of comments that I at first found mystifying. Phillipa says:
--->>"Sitting Shiva in the Jewish religion means destruction of the human I assume. So who is to blame over there?"
>>>Corafree says:
--->>"In my 'Webster's' shiv means knife. I guess that is a sword to the left of the sitting Shiva.
I guess it's what you believe 'being destroyed' means.
Nothing good can come from hate. But I don't like definition of meek (spiritless) either.
The people caught in the crossfire must feel so deserted and confused.
It's hard(?) to turn away. It's frightening to go with a long shot.
I'll pray to my God."
>>>
Gabbi-G pointed out that the God Shiva, and the phrase "sitting shiv'a" have nothing to do with one another.Dinah also offered an explanation of the phrase "sitting Shiv'a."
Thanks to both of you, for clarifying what happened in this thread and for making that distinction.
I can only infer that it was an assocation that, while perfectly possible in one's mind, is not possible etymologically. An innocent mistake, I'm sure.
I'd like to reiterate that there has been some sort of mistake in making any identification of the God Shiva (pronounced "shee-vah") with the custom of mourning, "sitting shiv'a" (pronounced "shiv-a"), in the Jewish Religion.
----There is No Connection Whatever, of Any Sort, between these two ideas.----
Sitting shiv'a has nothing to do with destruction of the human, or destruction in any form, or knives; the Jewish religion has nothing to do with destruction of the human, in any form, and the Jewish people not happy to be engaged in this conflict.
As a side point: Hizbollah stores their arms and builds their command centers in population centers, making it impossible for there not to be civilian casualties, in any even defensive campaign.This is called using 'human shields'-- and while I personally am not comfortable with the loss of human life of those who are used in this way-- I also believe that Hizbollah bears the ultimate responsibility for their deaths. Which does not justify anything other than the absolute greatest care and caution in bringing this about, on the part of Israel, it may make it inevitable.
But this is why there are so many civilian casualties in the current situation in Lebanon.
The following, for those who are interested, is the derivation of the Jewish phrase "sitting shiv'a":The word "SHIV-A" is from the Hebrew word for "SEVEN," and it refers to the seven day requirement of a type of mourning ritual after a death. That's all. Shiv'a means Seven. Period.
"Sitting Shiva" is spending SEVEN DAYS in seclusion, for immediate family members (parents, siblings, children) of the deceased person. They remain at home ("sit") because of their loss, and are visited by friends, relatives, and spiritual advisers (rabbi, cantor, other members of their synogogue), to allow them to carry out certain prayers at home, to take over ordinary tasks (such as meal preparation, etc), and to comfort them.
Note, to corafree: There is no "the" in the phrase "sitting shiv'a"-- one "sits shiv'a"-- or "is sitting shiv'a"--
I have two final questions:1. Is there anyone here who does not believe that Israel has the right to exist?
2. Is there anyone who believes that the Israelis, whatever their mistakes--and they have made some tragic ones-- are not, as a society--and of course, with exceptions, as there are in all societies-- as humane, enlightened, cultivated, and thoughtful as members of the other societies in the region, who also have made tragic mistakes that have brought us to this situation?
If so, I'd consider it very civil of you to tell me so, because I would rather know that I'm in the company of people who think so.
Jost
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation-Jay, Phillipa, Coraf, and, posted by Jost on July 22, 2006, at 16:42:26
>
> Note, to corafree: There is no "the" in the phrase "sitting shiv'a"-- one "sits shiv'a"-- or "is sitting shiv'a"--
>
>Thanks for that, I made that mistake too.
I also discovered that there are many theories about the origin of the slang "shiv"> If so, I'd consider it very civil of you to tell me so, because I would rather know that I'm in the company of people who think so.
>
> JostAbsolutely!
I didn't mention anything about the politics.I find the information, and perspectives
on any international political situation overwhelming, and don't trust that I can get an accurate picture from any source.
I can't fathom feeling confident making a definitive statement on anything besides my horror at the deaths of so many, and disgust with the manipulation of language used political propaganda.
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Jost, posted by Gabbi~G on July 22, 2006, at 17:12:26
I feel attacked.
cf
Posted by Jost on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Jost, posted by Gabbi~G on July 22, 2006, at 17:12:26
Thanks, Gabbi-G. I agree completely with what you said. I wish I did have a deeper, or more encompassing, understanding what was happening and why.
I looked up the etymology of "shiv" also and found some very interesting information about the Romany (or Romani) language of European gypsies, which I didn't know about. Fascinating.
Jost
Posted by Jost on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Gabbi~G, posted by corafree on July 22, 2006, at 18:10:37
> I feel attacked.
>
> cfI'm sorry you feel attacked, Corafree.
I'm not attacking you. My only intention was to clear up what seemed like a misunderstanding.
That's why I said that I thought there was an innocent set of associations. It's not your fault that you made the association. That kind of thing happens-- because language is such a tricky and complex thing.
I wanted to make sure that it was clear what the meaning of the phrase "sitting shiv'a" was.
I also wanted to say that that there is too much suffering on all sides in the situation, but I don't want us to forget that Israelis are suffering also.
Jost
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Gabbi~G, posted by corafree on July 22, 2006, at 18:10:37
Oh no! I'm so sorry if I made you feel that way, I was actually thinkng a few minutes ago that I should respond to your post I wantéd too! I could really relate to the "HIM!" and I was wondering if I should start a new thread about that alone so I was just mulling it over.
there was no animosity in my post whatsoever!
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » corafree, posted by Jost on July 22, 2006, at 18:35:07
<I wanted to make sure that it was clear what the meaning of the phrase "sitting shiv'a" was.>
You made sure. Your reaction felt like a response to offense. I am ignorant and was trying to understand something. I had no intent to offend at all.
As far as my beliefs about 'a knife' ... I believe in rebirth, so maybe it will come down to knives. I can't even recall what you said about the word, shiv, right now.
I know now you're very involved here, on a level I don't know, and probably can't know unless it was explained in great detail to me. I don't belong to an organized religion. I'm not a historian or theologion.
Remember there are some like me. Just a girl who grew up, married, raised children, made some mistakes.
Maybe I shouldn't have interacted here.
Honestly, do you think 'I should become involved.'? ... or, do you think 'Those that are not currently on this/that side, should stay neutral.'? I'm not asking you to educate me, but would appreciate it if you would share a gentle opinion.
I'm asking you if you think I should get off the fence in the midst of a crisis on both sides of me of which I no too little about, or stay where I am.
This has made me wonder what I should be doing.
<I also wanted to say that that there is too much suffering on all sides in the situation, but I don't want us to forget that Israelis are suffering also.>
I already would have agreed with you.
plsoverlookgrammerverbiage, cf
Posted by Phillipa on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Jost, posted by corafree on July 22, 2006, at 20:43:39
Wow the topic has changed from the initial thread. But thanks gg for explaining sitting shiva. Love Phillipa
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Gabbi~G, posted by Jost on July 22, 2006, at 18:18:07
> Thanks, Gabbi-G. I agree completely with what you said. I wish I did have a deeper, or more encompassing, understanding what was happening and why.
>You're very welcome.
I wish I had a deeper understanding too.
It's kind of hard knowing how little you know.
I'm always surprised that people can discuss a situation passionately from what they've heard on the evening news.
I've often been criticized for not being "interested" in politics, it's not that at all, it's just that when someone asks me what I think, except about my personal ethics, I generally answer "How could I possibly know why people do what they do?"
It doesn't mean I'm not passionate about learning all I can, but how could I think I could I comprehend a religion, or belief system that is thousands of years old, from over here?
> I looked up the etymology of "shiv" also and found some very interesting information about the Romany (or Romani) language of European gypsies, which I didn't know about. Fascinating.
>
>That's something I could study forever, it is fascinating. I think I was 18 when I learned that so many of our "bad" words were perfectly acceptable words in other cultures, but when the culture or belief system was overpowered by another, everything about it was made out to be immoral or heretical. That changed the way I look at everything.
and sometimes it gives me a headache :[
It was nice talking to you Jost
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: whoops, that's God not Goddess » Gabbi~G, posted by corafree on July 22, 2006, at 2:26:44
> Tks Gabbi~G for explaination there.
>
> You totally understood what I'd meant in saying 'being destroyed'.
>Yeah exactly, it was cool that you questioned that it may not mean *bad*
I wouldn't have questioned that until after I started actually studying religion on my own.> Wish I'd taken theology (I wanted to.) before I married him and married hIm and met Him and married hiM and met h_im.
>Yeah, I didn't even graduate high school.
I took one fascinating course in college though, and just did my own reading from there.
> "Angel huddle, group hug, move in" (Talking to myself and gesturing)(?)
>
> HeatDeranged, cfOh yeah
Me too..Anyway, not much to do with politics, but I wanted to respond.
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation-Jay, Phillipa, Coraf, and, posted by Jost on July 22, 2006, at 16:42:26
I felt attacked, by you, Jost.
cf
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Jost, posted by Gabbi~G on July 22, 2006, at 17:12:26
I felt attacked, but not by you, Gabbi~G.
I'm sorry.
I wasn't thinking to uncheck the 'add name of previous poster' box (I have made this mistake at least twice now!), or to go back and follow up to Jost's post.
cf
Posted by Jost on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Gabbi~G, posted by corafree on July 23, 2006, at 21:29:19
Corafree, I said yesterday that I was sorry if you felt attacked.
I'm also sorry that my apology didn't help your bad feelings.
I'm not sure what I can do, but if there are specific things, please let me know.
I hope that it did not seem that I attacked anyone. Certainly that wasn't my intention.
Jost
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » corafree, posted by Jost on July 23, 2006, at 22:57:27
I've thought about this since last night(?) and wondered about our interaction. I don't think I was focusing well yesterday and feel I may have acted selfishly.
You're obviously very concerned about this awful war because you are more knowledgeable of this situation and 'can feel' the strife.
I am not accomplished at 'reading between the lines'. I spill my guts all over the place, and forget that many people with just as much to spill, handle it differently.
So I'm sorry also, but I didn't get a post from you after my 'too lengthy' explanation of my ignorance.
Did something go wrong w/ the move from Social to Politics?
I have no relatives, friends, or acquaitances from the Middle East, or that are of these religions. I watched CNN this morning trying to educate myself. I'm surprised at the enormity of power coming from a movement I'd not heard of until a few days ago.
My life has been a stress-mess for at least 10yrs and I've been consumed 'in my world'.
tks, cf
Posted by llrrrpp on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:43
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Jost, posted by corafree on July 24, 2006, at 3:03:26
Now the strife comes home.
On the local news are Arabs and Jews from a nearby community who gathered to protest/support the happenings in the middle east. And I can hear hatred on both sides. These are Americans, living in America, calling for the death of other Americans. Why does the reasoning for their violent retributions sound so juvenile? Am I missing something? What happened to live and let live? Forgiveness?
I don't know what the Jewish & Muslim equivalents of
"An eye for an eye"
and
"Turn the other cheek" are
But surely these great religions have something to say regarding revenge vs. acceptance?
I'm always confused about where religion stops and where politics starts. This conflict perhaps is more confusing to me than others.
Too much suffering. Too much terror. Does it make sense to *anyone?*
Posted by Jost on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:43
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Jost, posted by corafree on July 24, 2006, at 3:03:26
Hi, Cf,
Thanks for your last post.
I didn't answer your longer (but not "too long") message yesterday, because I wasn't sure what to say. In rereading it, I realize you asked directly for a response. My not responding wasn't from a wish to further offend you.
I'm glad you watched CNN, even though the situation is bad, because it's worth the effort, at times, to be aware of things in the world. Of course, there are times when one doesn't have the emotional energy, or time, or it's too depressing, and would be worse to know, and not worth it.
I'm sorry to hear that your life has been stressful to such an extent. You seem thoughtful and interesting, and I hope things are and will be getting better over time.
Your opinion, whatever it is, is respected by me, nor should you take any sides you aren't comfortable taking.
Possibly my original message seemed overly intense.
There was an underlying sense in what had been written by one or two people, but not by you, of a possible reaction of less sympathy for some in the Middle East than for others. I hope that it was mostly out of having their attention turned in a certain direction, than any conscious intention.
I was sensitive to certain things and wanted to make some comment.
I'm glad you interacted, even if there were misunderstandings, since that's always part of connecting, and can lead to better understanding in the future.
Jost
Posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:43
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » corafree, posted by Jost on July 24, 2006, at 10:48:58
Hey Jost
Here's my early morning effort to grasp the nettle.
Through various wars and the performance of their leaderships, a people has lost its land, and the bitterness of this influences the politics of the entire region.
How about that?
Declan
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:43
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » corafree, posted by Jost on July 22, 2006, at 18:35:07
<I'm sorry you feel attacked, Corafree.>
My mistake.
Yes you did apologize. Thank you so much.
Now, I also do recall receiving this post. Sorry Dinah, I believe.
bestwishes, cf
Posted by AuntieMel on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:43
In reply to Re: Mid East situation-Jay, Phillipa, Coraf, and, posted by Jost on July 22, 2006, at 16:42:26
I always like to boil "self defense" down to "who fired first.""
Though some would like to take it back a couple of thousand years...
I prefer the "who fired first" rule to be more recent.
Thus - in my mind
Afghanistan - we were attacked first - I supported this one.
Iraq - we weren't attacked - we should have left them aloneAnd the current problem? Israel was invaded and has a right to respond.
My opinion, for what it's worth.
Posted by AuntieMel on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:43
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Jost, posted by Gabbi~G on July 23, 2006, at 14:37:09
And a lot of what we consider polite words were once considered cursing.
Like 'jeepers'
Posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:43
In reply to Re: Mid East situation-Jay, Phillipa, Coraf, and » Jost, posted by AuntieMel on July 25, 2006, at 15:51:39
is a good question. Usually you take it as far back as someone has muscle to make you.
What do you think of the idea that Israel has fallen into Hizbullah's(sp?) trap?
I imagine you saying 'Some trap!'
Is this about Iran's nuclear program? I see Pakistan has a new plutonium reactor, or something.
Declan
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:43
In reply to Re: What I feel sums up the Mid East situation » Jay, posted by Phillipa on July 20, 2006, at 12:08:58
> So who is to blame over there?
Just a reminder, it tends to be more civil if you put things in terms of what others might do better rather than what they did "wrong". And to talk about how you feel rather than what someone else did, in other words, to use I-statements.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:43
In reply to 'How far do you take it back' » AuntieMel, posted by Declan on July 25, 2006, at 17:03:44
But was it a trap?
Or were they remembering that the last few times they did a kidnapping there *was* a trade for prisoners.
There's no way to take it back to the 'beginning' - humans have be waundering the globe and fighting over territory since pre-history.
Take it back a couple of hundred years? Then most americans would have to leave for somewhere.
How 'bout if we just say - hey the music has stopped. Whatever chair you're in is yours.
Posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:43
In reply to Re: 'How far do you take it back' » Declan, posted by AuntieMel on July 26, 2006, at 17:22:38
G'day
I was thinking about this, and often we take it back to our earlest memories. So Hizbullah is really recent for me, came in in the 80s, didn't it?
There was an article reprinted from Ha'rrets(sp??) which claimed it was a trap. Hizbullah is looking long term...this will be going on long after we are both dead, I think. The point for them is to radicalise the islamic world, and have they not been successful in that? But the article was talking geopolitics, with Russia and Iran brokering a ceasefire in return for no contest over Iran's nuclear reactor. Of course it might very well not pan out that way. But the G8 didn't concentrate on Iran, and I wonder if Iran will be able to do it now. Pincer movements all over the place. We shall see what happens. Lebanon is only a small part of it (I think).
Declan
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