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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by caraher on July 22, 2006, at 19:46:34
In reply to What I feel sums up the Mid East situation, posted by Jay on July 20, 2006, at 8:48:11
> Many number of scientists disowned their field, never practising science again for the rest of their lives because of this.
Could you name a few? I don't think this is the case at all. The scientists I'm aware of who were shaken by "the bomb" increased their political activity and/or changed their area of study, but in no way ceased to be scientists. Quite the contrary - they hoped to use what authority they did have as scientists to work against future use of such weapons!
Posted by Phillipa on July 22, 2006, at 19:46:34
In reply to Re: What I feel sums up the Mid East situation » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2006, at 15:48:12
Thanks Dinah I know a great many Jewish People but I always thought they buried the dead within 24hours after death and then mourned for seven days. Had no idea of the customs. Thanks, Love Phillipa
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 22, 2006, at 19:46:34
In reply to Re: What I feel sums up the Mid East situation, posted by caraher on July 20, 2006, at 17:53:34
bernard Porter did become disgusted with his proffession and and turned to writing poetry and painting.
I don't think he was a direct part of the Manhattan project but was a nuclear physicist who's expertise was used to develop the Atomic Bomb.
Three other scientists (who's names I can't recall) from the Manhattan project had their careers destroyed by the government not long after Hiroshima/NagasakiOppenheimer himself, did remain a scientist and consistantly protested the development and testing of more destructive weapons.
I don't know how many that leaves, from the Manhattan project anyway.
Posted by corafree on July 22, 2006, at 19:46:34
In reply to What I feel sums up the Mid East situation, posted by Jay on July 20, 2006, at 8:48:11
In my 'Webster's' shiv means knife. I guess that is a sword to the left of the sitting Shiva.
I guess it's what you believe 'being destroyed' means.
Nothing good can come from hate. But I don't like definition of meek (spiritless) either.
The people caught in the crossfire must feel so deserted and confused.
It's hard(?) to turn away. It's frightening to go with a long shot.
I'll pray to my God.
cf
Posted by Jost on July 26, 2006, at 23:20:40
In reply to Re: What I feel sums up the Mid East situation » Jay, posted by corafree on July 21, 2006, at 2:47:24
> In my 'Webster's' shiv means knife. I guess that is a sword to the left of the sitting Shiva.
>
> I guess it's what you believe 'being destroyed' means.
>
> Nothing good can come from hate. But I don't like definition of meek (spiritless) either.
>
> The people caught in the crossfire must feel so deserted and confused.
>
> It's hard(?) to turn away. It's frightening to go with a long shot.
>
> I'll pray to my God.
>
> cfHi. I don't understand exactly what you mean by that. How is a "shiv" related to or "to the left of" "sitting shiva"?
thanks, Jost
Posted by AuntieMel on July 26, 2006, at 23:20:40
In reply to Re: What I feel sums up the Mid East situation, posted by Gabbi~G on July 20, 2006, at 19:15:00
Years ago (the '70') I bought a book the library was selling in an old book sale.
It was years old when I bought it. It was written not too long after atomics weapons were invented.
It's called "Atoms for Peace" about other technologies and uses for this 'new' atomic knowledge.
I wonder where that book went.....
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 26, 2006, at 23:20:40
In reply to Re: That reminds me » Gabbi~G, posted by AuntieMel on July 21, 2006, at 10:03:29
*sigh*
It was spirited away to the mythical land of books we wish we still had.
I have moved so many times, and tried to be careful with my precious books.
Somehow I've been left with a pile of John Grisham type paperbacks that usually belonged to my former roomates, or were accidentally taken from the waiting room at the Doctor's office when I left in a hurry.
It's true.
I don't know how that happens, but I'm sure I'm not alone, it must be some sort of Murphy's law.
Posted by Declan on July 26, 2006, at 23:20:40
In reply to Re: That reminds me » Gabbi~G, posted by AuntieMel on July 21, 2006, at 10:03:29
I can remember "Atoms for Peace".
For some reason it reminds me of "None dare call it Treason".
My father was very interested in US politics and came back from the States with a bottle of Goldwater.
Declan
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:41
In reply to Re: What I feel sums up the Mid East situation, posted by Jost on July 21, 2006, at 5:00:06
I dunno' ... seems like there is a sword/stake or knife-like instrument in the right hand, our left. Sorry, cf
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:41
In reply to Re: What I feel sums up the Mid East situation » Jay, posted by corafree on July 21, 2006, at 2:47:24
> In my 'Webster's' shiv means knife. I guess that is a sword to the left of the sitting Shiva.
>Actually the Sitting Shiva is the Jewish mourning period after a death. The orignal word is Shiv'ah. It's not related to the Hindu Goddess Shiva who has the sword. I think you're right about where the slang term "shiv" comes from.
> I guess it's what you believe 'being destroyed' means.
>Yeah, I think if Oppenheimer said that he hadn't quite studied far enough.
Shiva is a destroyer of both and evil sorrow, and as the detroyer of worlds, the destruction is seen as positive, giving birth to new life.Some compare the symbolism to the Christian death and rebirth of Christ, or the great flood.
I hope I don't sound snotty, I just find the topic fascinating.> Nothing good can come from hate. But I don't like definition of meek (spiritless) either.
>
> The people caught in the crossfire must feel so deserted and confused.
>
> It's hard(?) to turn away. It's frightening to go with a long shot.
>
> I'll pray to my God.
>
> cf
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:41
In reply to Re: What I feel sums up the Mid East situation » Jost, posted by corafree on July 21, 2006, at 13:57:38
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:41
In reply to whoops, that's God not Goddess (nm), posted by Gabbi~G on July 21, 2006, at 14:03:31
Tks Gabbi~G for explaination there.
You totally understood what I'd meant in saying 'being destroyed'.
Wish I'd taken theology (I wanted to.) before I married him and married hIm and met Him and married hiM and met h_im.
"Angel huddle, group hug, move in" (Talking to myself and gesturing)(?)
HeatDeranged, cf
Posted by Jost on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:41
In reply to What I feel sums up the Mid East situation, posted by Jay on July 20, 2006, at 8:48:11
I'd like to respond to a line of commentary in the thread "What I feel sums up the Mid East"
First, Jay says ' I am shocked beyond belief at the *DEATH* in Lebanon, Iraq, and Afghanastan (sic), especially of the innocent civillians by "soldiers"'
To this, I ask:
I assume you are also shocked by the deaths of Israeli civilians, at the hands of suicide bombers, as they sit in cafes, markets, weddings?
The suicide bombers do not just decide one day to put on a vest of bombs and go to Israel. They are chosen, trained, and armed, and instructed where to go, by Hizbollah and Hamas.
There is, to this day, continuous shelling of Israeli towns near the Lebanese border, and the flying of unmanned drones, programmed to make as loud a noise as possible over towns in Israel to create as great a feeling of ongoing horror and dread (as specifically claimed by Nasrullah), by Hizbollah.
I'm going to assume Jay and all of you care about all innocents in any society. Yet when I read a sentence that excludes Israelis, I wonder: does Jay consider Israeli civilians, who, in case you've forgotten have offered peace agreements that have been rejected, to be less innocent than citizens of these other countries?
Then,
Jay refers to the God Shiva (pronounced "shee-vah") and destruction. The situation in the middle east reminds him of a passage from the Bhagavad-Gita.
Then there are a series of comments that I at first found mystifying. Phillipa says:
--->>"Sitting Shiva in the Jewish religion means destruction of the human I assume. So who is to blame over there?"
>>>Corafree says:
--->>"In my 'Webster's' shiv means knife. I guess that is a sword to the left of the sitting Shiva.
I guess it's what you believe 'being destroyed' means.
Nothing good can come from hate. But I don't like definition of meek (spiritless) either.
The people caught in the crossfire must feel so deserted and confused.
It's hard(?) to turn away. It's frightening to go with a long shot.
I'll pray to my God."
>>>
Gabbi-G pointed out that the God Shiva, and the phrase "sitting shiv'a" have nothing to do with one another.Dinah also offered an explanation of the phrase "sitting Shiv'a."
Thanks to both of you, for clarifying what happened in this thread and for making that distinction.
I can only infer that it was an assocation that, while perfectly possible in one's mind, is not possible etymologically. An innocent mistake, I'm sure.
I'd like to reiterate that there has been some sort of mistake in making any identification of the God Shiva (pronounced "shee-vah") with the custom of mourning, "sitting shiv'a" (pronounced "shiv-a"), in the Jewish Religion.
----There is No Connection Whatever, of Any Sort, between these two ideas.----
Sitting shiv'a has nothing to do with destruction of the human, or destruction in any form, or knives; the Jewish religion has nothing to do with destruction of the human, in any form, and the Jewish people not happy to be engaged in this conflict.
As a side point: Hizbollah stores their arms and builds their command centers in population centers, making it impossible for there not to be civilian casualties, in any even defensive campaign.This is called using 'human shields'-- and while I personally am not comfortable with the loss of human life of those who are used in this way-- I also believe that Hizbollah bears the ultimate responsibility for their deaths. Which does not justify anything other than the absolute greatest care and caution in bringing this about, on the part of Israel, it may make it inevitable.
But this is why there are so many civilian casualties in the current situation in Lebanon.
The following, for those who are interested, is the derivation of the Jewish phrase "sitting shiv'a":The word "SHIV-A" is from the Hebrew word for "SEVEN," and it refers to the seven day requirement of a type of mourning ritual after a death. That's all. Shiv'a means Seven. Period.
"Sitting Shiva" is spending SEVEN DAYS in seclusion, for immediate family members (parents, siblings, children) of the deceased person. They remain at home ("sit") because of their loss, and are visited by friends, relatives, and spiritual advisers (rabbi, cantor, other members of their synogogue), to allow them to carry out certain prayers at home, to take over ordinary tasks (such as meal preparation, etc), and to comfort them.
Note, to corafree: There is no "the" in the phrase "sitting shiv'a"-- one "sits shiv'a"-- or "is sitting shiv'a"--
I have two final questions:1. Is there anyone here who does not believe that Israel has the right to exist?
2. Is there anyone who believes that the Israelis, whatever their mistakes--and they have made some tragic ones-- are not, as a society--and of course, with exceptions, as there are in all societies-- as humane, enlightened, cultivated, and thoughtful as members of the other societies in the region, who also have made tragic mistakes that have brought us to this situation?
If so, I'd consider it very civil of you to tell me so, because I would rather know that I'm in the company of people who think so.
Jost
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation-Jay, Phillipa, Coraf, and, posted by Jost on July 22, 2006, at 16:42:26
>
> Note, to corafree: There is no "the" in the phrase "sitting shiv'a"-- one "sits shiv'a"-- or "is sitting shiv'a"--
>
>Thanks for that, I made that mistake too.
I also discovered that there are many theories about the origin of the slang "shiv"> If so, I'd consider it very civil of you to tell me so, because I would rather know that I'm in the company of people who think so.
>
> JostAbsolutely!
I didn't mention anything about the politics.I find the information, and perspectives
on any international political situation overwhelming, and don't trust that I can get an accurate picture from any source.
I can't fathom feeling confident making a definitive statement on anything besides my horror at the deaths of so many, and disgust with the manipulation of language used political propaganda.
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Jost, posted by Gabbi~G on July 22, 2006, at 17:12:26
I feel attacked.
cf
Posted by Jost on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Jost, posted by Gabbi~G on July 22, 2006, at 17:12:26
Thanks, Gabbi-G. I agree completely with what you said. I wish I did have a deeper, or more encompassing, understanding what was happening and why.
I looked up the etymology of "shiv" also and found some very interesting information about the Romany (or Romani) language of European gypsies, which I didn't know about. Fascinating.
Jost
Posted by Jost on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Gabbi~G, posted by corafree on July 22, 2006, at 18:10:37
> I feel attacked.
>
> cfI'm sorry you feel attacked, Corafree.
I'm not attacking you. My only intention was to clear up what seemed like a misunderstanding.
That's why I said that I thought there was an innocent set of associations. It's not your fault that you made the association. That kind of thing happens-- because language is such a tricky and complex thing.
I wanted to make sure that it was clear what the meaning of the phrase "sitting shiv'a" was.
I also wanted to say that that there is too much suffering on all sides in the situation, but I don't want us to forget that Israelis are suffering also.
Jost
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Gabbi~G, posted by corafree on July 22, 2006, at 18:10:37
Oh no! I'm so sorry if I made you feel that way, I was actually thinkng a few minutes ago that I should respond to your post I wantéd too! I could really relate to the "HIM!" and I was wondering if I should start a new thread about that alone so I was just mulling it over.
there was no animosity in my post whatsoever!
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » corafree, posted by Jost on July 22, 2006, at 18:35:07
<I wanted to make sure that it was clear what the meaning of the phrase "sitting shiv'a" was.>
You made sure. Your reaction felt like a response to offense. I am ignorant and was trying to understand something. I had no intent to offend at all.
As far as my beliefs about 'a knife' ... I believe in rebirth, so maybe it will come down to knives. I can't even recall what you said about the word, shiv, right now.
I know now you're very involved here, on a level I don't know, and probably can't know unless it was explained in great detail to me. I don't belong to an organized religion. I'm not a historian or theologion.
Remember there are some like me. Just a girl who grew up, married, raised children, made some mistakes.
Maybe I shouldn't have interacted here.
Honestly, do you think 'I should become involved.'? ... or, do you think 'Those that are not currently on this/that side, should stay neutral.'? I'm not asking you to educate me, but would appreciate it if you would share a gentle opinion.
I'm asking you if you think I should get off the fence in the midst of a crisis on both sides of me of which I no too little about, or stay where I am.
This has made me wonder what I should be doing.
<I also wanted to say that that there is too much suffering on all sides in the situation, but I don't want us to forget that Israelis are suffering also.>
I already would have agreed with you.
plsoverlookgrammerverbiage, cf
Posted by Phillipa on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Jost, posted by corafree on July 22, 2006, at 20:43:39
Wow the topic has changed from the initial thread. But thanks gg for explaining sitting shiva. Love Phillipa
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Gabbi~G, posted by Jost on July 22, 2006, at 18:18:07
> Thanks, Gabbi-G. I agree completely with what you said. I wish I did have a deeper, or more encompassing, understanding what was happening and why.
>You're very welcome.
I wish I had a deeper understanding too.
It's kind of hard knowing how little you know.
I'm always surprised that people can discuss a situation passionately from what they've heard on the evening news.
I've often been criticized for not being "interested" in politics, it's not that at all, it's just that when someone asks me what I think, except about my personal ethics, I generally answer "How could I possibly know why people do what they do?"
It doesn't mean I'm not passionate about learning all I can, but how could I think I could I comprehend a religion, or belief system that is thousands of years old, from over here?
> I looked up the etymology of "shiv" also and found some very interesting information about the Romany (or Romani) language of European gypsies, which I didn't know about. Fascinating.
>
>That's something I could study forever, it is fascinating. I think I was 18 when I learned that so many of our "bad" words were perfectly acceptable words in other cultures, but when the culture or belief system was overpowered by another, everything about it was made out to be immoral or heretical. That changed the way I look at everything.
and sometimes it gives me a headache :[
It was nice talking to you Jost
Posted by Gabbi~G on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: whoops, that's God not Goddess » Gabbi~G, posted by corafree on July 22, 2006, at 2:26:44
> Tks Gabbi~G for explaination there.
>
> You totally understood what I'd meant in saying 'being destroyed'.
>Yeah exactly, it was cool that you questioned that it may not mean *bad*
I wouldn't have questioned that until after I started actually studying religion on my own.> Wish I'd taken theology (I wanted to.) before I married him and married hIm and met Him and married hiM and met h_im.
>Yeah, I didn't even graduate high school.
I took one fascinating course in college though, and just did my own reading from there.
> "Angel huddle, group hug, move in" (Talking to myself and gesturing)(?)
>
> HeatDeranged, cfOh yeah
Me too..Anyway, not much to do with politics, but I wanted to respond.
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation-Jay, Phillipa, Coraf, and, posted by Jost on July 22, 2006, at 16:42:26
I felt attacked, by you, Jost.
cf
Posted by corafree on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Jost, posted by Gabbi~G on July 22, 2006, at 17:12:26
I felt attacked, but not by you, Gabbi~G.
I'm sorry.
I wasn't thinking to uncheck the 'add name of previous poster' box (I have made this mistake at least twice now!), or to go back and follow up to Jost's post.
cf
Posted by Jost on July 26, 2006, at 23:23:42
In reply to Re: Mid East situation- » Gabbi~G, posted by corafree on July 23, 2006, at 21:29:19
Corafree, I said yesterday that I was sorry if you felt attacked.
I'm also sorry that my apology didn't help your bad feelings.
I'm not sure what I can do, but if there are specific things, please let me know.
I hope that it did not seem that I attacked anyone. Certainly that wasn't my intention.
Jost
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