Shown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 13:12:33
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 12:15:28
To me it sounds like chronic unhappiness.
What used to be called 'neurasthenia'.Squiggles
Posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 13:57:36
In reply to Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 10:15:01
> Is CFS what is referred to as "the Yuppie Flu"
I do not think "the Yuppie Flu" is a fair or nice way to refer to CFS. There are people here with CFS
so I think their feelings should be considered.You can question the existance of something without
resorting to dismissive terms.
Posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 14:01:23
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 13:12:33
a patient must satisfy two criteria:
1. Have severe chronic fatigue of six months or longer duration with other known medical conditions excluded by clinical diagnosis; and
2. Concurrently have four or more of the following symptoms: substantial impairment in short-term memory or concentration; sore throat; tender lymph nodes; muscle pain; multi-joint pain without swelling or redness; headaches of a new type, pattern or severity; unrefreshing sleep; and post-exertional malaise lasting more than 24 hours.
Posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 14:09:42
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 14:01:23
I think neurasthenia is a really cool diagnosis.
The problem with modern diagnoses is just one of lack of style.
Involutional melancholia has a nice ring to it too.
Posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 14:18:02
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 14:09:42
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurasthenia
The modern view holds that the main problem of neurasthenia was that it attempted to group together a wide variety of cases. In recent years, Richard M. Fogoros has posited that perhaps neurasthenia was a word that could include some psychiatric conditions, but more importantly, many physiological conditions marginally more understood by the medical community, such as fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, and various forms of dysautonomia, among others. He emphasizes that the majority of patients who would have once been diagnosed with neurasthenia have conditions that are "real, honest-to-goodness physiologic (as opposed to psychologic) disorders... and while they can make anybody crazy, they are not caused by craziness."
Posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 14:28:00
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 13:57:36
> > Is CFS what is referred to as "the Yuppie Flu"
>
>
> I do not think "the Yuppie Flu" is a fair or nice way to refer to CFS. There are people here with CFS
> so I think their feelings should be considered.
>
> You can question the existance of something without
> resorting to dismissive terms.
>
That's not what I called it. I called it
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. But the press has
referred to it as "Yuppie Flu". So, don't
blame me for that euphesism - it's not mine. And
futhermore, I am not sure if that is what they meant by "yuppie flu" -- that is why I asked.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 15:32:06
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 14:01:23
> a patient must satisfy two criteria:
>
> 1. Have severe chronic fatigue of six months or longer duration with other known medical conditions excluded by clinical diagnosis; and
>
>
>
> 2. Concurrently have four or more of the following symptoms: substantial impairment in short-term memory or concentration; sore throat; tender lymph nodes; muscle pain; multi-joint pain without swelling or redness; headaches of a new type, pattern or severity; unrefreshing sleep; and post-exertional malaise lasting more than 24 hours.
>
I know someone who has the symptoms. But if there were an attempt at diagnosis, it would take a lot of work to do the blood and neuro tests (exaggerating a bit, after seeing the Wikipedia article).Squiggles
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 4, 2007, at 17:12:23
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 15:32:06
> I know someone who has the symptoms. But if there were an attempt at diagnosis, it would take a lot of work to do the blood and neuro tests (exaggerating a bit, after seeing the Wikipedia article).
>
> SquigglesAs it currently is diagnosed, all possible alternative explanations must be ruled out. Although I suppose it makes sense to test for some of these serious morbidities, there is no reason someone might not jump straight into treatment. The link I earlier provided has treatment strategies summarized on the main page. http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/Faculty/pall/pall_main.htm
Lar
Posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 17:26:04
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by notfred on March 4, 2007, at 14:18:02
If I remember correctly Vivien Eliot, wife of TS, got a diagnosis of 'moral insanity', not (as far as I am aware) from her eccentric and disruptive behaviour (later), but from the fact that she had really irregular menstrual bleeding.
She was treated with ether and opiates.
It did sound a bit odd.
Posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 18:11:57
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real? » notfred, posted by Declan on March 4, 2007, at 17:26:04
> If I remember correctly Vivien Eliot, wife of TS, got a diagnosis of 'moral insanity', not (as far as I am aware) from her eccentric and disruptive behaviour (later), but from the fact that she had really irregular menstrual bleeding.
>
> She was treated with ether and opiates.
>
>
> It did sound a bit odd.
Dang, I was born too late. :-)Squiggles
Posted by croy32 on March 4, 2007, at 18:12:03
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Phillipa on March 4, 2007, at 10:36:58
Hi squiggles.
I think the medical consensus now is that CFS is real. It's also called Chronic Fatigue Immune Deficiency Syndrome, or CFIDS. There are now tests (testing for antibodies, testing sedimentation rate) that as a group can point to CFIDS.
I think there probably are still people who refer to it as the Yuppie Flu. That's pretty harmful to a lot of genuinely suffering people.
Affecting the brain: "brain fog" or confusion, memory problems, inability to concentrate, etc. is a major symptom people report. When I was tested for CFS the doc said it affects the limbic system. I'm sorry I don't know exactly what that means, but it seems to have neurological implications.
I was told by my doctor that CFS, hypothyroid, and Depression are very closely linked and overlapping in women. So it does seem like there is an endocrine componenet, as you suggested. Lots of doctors think that CFS and Depression are basically the same disease with CFS being having more intense physical symptoms and Depression having more intense mood symptoms.
But I'm not the best person to tell you about this! Here's the info at the Center for Disease Control:
Posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 18:30:45
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by croy32 on March 4, 2007, at 18:12:03
Wow! That there are tests for it, is
impressive. Thanks. I'll study it.Squiggles
Posted by Declan on March 5, 2007, at 1:23:19
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 4, 2007, at 18:11:57
I know exactly how you feel. Advances of medical science indeed. Talk about the whig view of history.
But ether? Maybe it's OK? They used to have ether parties, maybe just my sort of party with everyone out cold, or just about.
Posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 7:23:31
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by croy32 on March 4, 2007, at 18:12:03
I was reading that the diagnosis for
CFS is "exclusive" (and there are many
tests of exclusion). IMHO, they should
have stuck to the nomenclature: Myelitic
encephalopathy (somehting like that, ME);
The name "chronic fatigue syndrome" makes
it sound like you're just tired all the time.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 10:21:36
In reply to Re: Is Chronic Fatigue Syndrome real?, posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 7:23:31
http://www.mja.com.au/public/guides/cfs/cfs2.html
(CLINICAL PRACTICAL GUIDELINES) - how to diagnose CFS:
exerpt:
2.1: What can a person with "fatigue" or "tiredness" be describing?
In most instances the symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome can be distinguished from the closely related phenomena of somnolence, muscle weakness, neuromuscular fatigability, depressed mood or anhedonia.
Person describes:
Interpretation
*
Reduced muscle power at rest
*Difficulty walking or lifting weights
→ Muscle weakness (eg, myopathy; polymyositis)
*
Loss of muscle power over time with activity
→ Neuromuscular fatigability (eg, myasthenia gravis)
*
Physical and mental fatigue at rest
→ Central fatigue (eg, multiple sclerosis)
*
Lack of motivation to commence tasks
*Lack of pleasure from tasks undertaken
→ Anhedonia (eg, major depression)
*
Daytime sleepiness
*Short sleep latency
→ Somnolence (eg, sleep apnoea, narcolepsy)
*
Breathlessness at rest or on exercise
→ Dyspnoea → Weakness (eg, airflow limitation; cardiac failure; anaemia)
*
Muscle pain, joint pain
*Fever, malaise
→ Inflammation (eg, systemic lupus erythematosus) → Infection (eg, influenza)
How should fatigue be evaluated?CFS is distinguished from similar fatigue-related illnesses not only by carefully characterising the fatigue itself, but also by evaluating associated symptoms and signs. People with CFS also report:
*
unrefreshing sleep;
*myalgia:
*arthralgia;
*loss of concentration;
*memory impairment;
*irritable mood, and
*postexertional malaise (may be delayed).
--------------------------------------------------
CATATONIA (with no reference to Dr. Torrey's cats :-))Has anyone looked at this old motor retardation/depression state?
Sometimes old medical observations may deceive us. Once the
word has disappeared, the idea has disappeared.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catatonia
Squiggles
Posted by Declan on March 5, 2007, at 14:04:58
In reply to Catatonia, posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 10:21:36
In the early 70s catatonia was something that had happened very recently.
Posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 14:15:49
In reply to Waxy flexibility, posted by Declan on March 5, 2007, at 14:04:58
> In the early 70s catatonia was something that had happened very recently.
What do you mean by "recently"? I bet medications are a big cause recently, in comparison to organic brain diseases, and emotional shock that they saw before (just as examples).
Take a look at this site. The condition has more
causes that CFS; infact there is some debate (Max Fink) that it may be a sub-type of Catatonia.http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic708.htm
Squiggles
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 5, 2007, at 15:04:36
In reply to Re: Waxy flexibility, posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 14:15:49
> Take a look at this site. The condition has more
> causes that CFS; infact there is some debate (Max Fink) that it may be a sub-type of Catatonia.
>
> http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic708.htm
>
> SquigglesThe paper barely mentions Fink. Does he argue somewhere that CFS?? is a subtype of catatonia? (Your semantics are unclear.) Not in this paper, he doesn't. Nor can I imagine anyone making a cogent argument for such a comparison.
Max Fink never met a patient he wouldn't administer ECT upon. He ECTs Parkinson's and Alzheimer's patients, and autistic children.
And what on Earth has any of this to do with CFS/ME?
Lar
Posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 15:57:01
In reply to Re: Waxy flexibility » Squiggles, posted by Larry Hoover on March 5, 2007, at 15:04:36
> > Take a look at this site. The condition has more
> > causes that CFS; infact there is some debate (Max Fink) that it may be a sub-type of Catatonia.
> >
> > http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic708.htm
> >
> > Squiggles
>
> The paper barely mentions Fink. Does he argue somewhere that CFS?? is a subtype of catatonia? (Your semantics are unclear.) Not in this paper, he doesn't. Nor can I imagine anyone making a cogent argument for such a comparison.No, you are right about this paper. The discussion regarding a change in the categorization of "catatonia" is something i saw here:
http://www.ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/search?qbe=ajp;161/6/1136-a&journalcode=ajp&minscore=5000
and here is an excerpt from Fink and Taylor, suggesting that its clinical meaning be removed from the past association exclusively to schizophrenia and replaced by a psychopathological syndrome resulting from a multitude of illnesses, such as neuroleptic malignant syndrome:
"Drs. Taylor and Fink Reply
MICHAEL ALAN TAYLOR, M.D. and MAX FINK, M.D.
Ann Arbor, Mich.To the Editor: Drs. Levin and Martin miss the point of our argument. We did not claim that catatonia is a delirious process but cited the DSM-IV-TR category of delirium (293.0) as an analogy for the location of catatonia. We could also have cited dementia (290.0) as our analogy.
We presented catatonia as a distinct syndrome that is identifiable by its psychopathology, occurs in a wide range of psychiatric disorders, and is responsive to defined interventions. We suggested that catatonia deserves a class of its own in psychiatric classifications, much as delirium and dementia are individually defined. We presented extensive evidence that catatonia is not limited to a subtype of schizophrenia (295.2) or secondary to a medical condition (293.89), as formulated in DSM-IV-TR.
Classifying catatonia as a distinct psychopathological entity encourages its diagnosis, application of its unique treatments, and its research study. The textbook formulation of catatonia based on the DSM classification is no longer useful in psychiatric practice."
Of course, it is a matter of controversy. I am sorry that I mentioned Fink and CFS together. I still say that it *is* imaginable that the symptoms of CFS have much in common with catatonia (and it does come in degrees and sometimes disappears) in light of the article
i posted:http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic708.htm
>> Max Fink never met a patient he wouldn't administer ECT upon.
Ah, I'm sure that is a hyperbole or perhaps an indication of your esteem of Dr. Fink.
He ECTs Parkinson's and Alzheimer's patients, and autistic children.
So does Healy; I haven't heard too many criticisms against him.
>
> And what on Earth has any of this to do with CFS/ME?I don't know what you mean.
Squiggles
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 5, 2007, at 17:18:48
In reply to Re: Waxy flexibility, posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 15:57:01
> > > Take a look at this site. The condition has more
> > > causes that CFS; infact there is some debate (Max Fink) that it may be a sub-type of Catatonia.
> > >
> > > http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic708.htm
> > >
> > > Squiggles
> >
> > The paper barely mentions Fink. Does he argue somewhere that CFS?? is a subtype of catatonia? (Your semantics are unclear.)> and here is an excerpt from Fink and Taylor, suggesting that its clinical meaning be removed from the past association exclusively to schizophrenia and replaced by a psychopathological syndrome resulting from a multitude of illnesses, such as neuroleptic malignant syndrome
I fail to see the slightest connection to the original theme of this thread.
>
> Of course, it is a matter of controversy. I am sorry that I mentioned Fink and CFS together.The issue was catatonia with CFS, according to what you first said, yet you provide belated evidence of catatonia being arguably a subtype of schizophrenia. Again, what has this to do with CFS?
> I still say that it *is* imaginable that the symptoms of CFS have much in common with catatonia
They could not be more different. Thay are like chalk and cheese. There is not one symptom in common, unless you were to blindly say something like "well, neither one moves much".
> > Max Fink never met a patient he wouldn't administer ECT upon.
>
> Ah, I'm sure that is a hyperbole or perhaps an indication of your esteem of Dr. Fink.He once crowed (in a book he wrote) that he had shocked subjects as young as 3 and as old as 96. He is part owner of a company that makes ECT devices, and receives royalties both from training videos and device sales. ECT has never been approved by the FDA for any purpose, but was grandfathered in, in 1955.
> He ECTs Parkinson's and Alzheimer's patients, and autistic children.
>
> So does Healy; I haven't heard too many criticisms against him.Healy has no connection whatsoever with ECT, as far as I know. But he most certainly knows better than to send sin wave electricity through the brain of a Parkinson's or Alzheimer's patient. Check Pubmed for Fink bragging about shocking 'mentally retarded' (sic) children. According to Fink, the treatment worked.
>
> >
> > And what on Earth has any of this to do with CFS/ME?
>
> I don't know what you mean.
>
> SquigglesThe theme of the thread you started?
Lar
Posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 17:25:17
In reply to Re: Waxy flexibility » Squiggles, posted by Larry Hoover on March 5, 2007, at 17:18:48
I'm sorry, I must have gone from one topic
to another, without paying attention.Thanks for your patience.
Squiggles
Posted by Declan on March 5, 2007, at 18:16:51
In reply to Re: Waxy flexibility, posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 17:25:17
I was just impressed by the words 'waxy flexibility'.
Psychiatry is so lacking in style that you grab hold of every bit you can.
Posted by Squiggles on March 5, 2007, at 19:07:12
In reply to Re: Waxy flexibility, posted by Declan on March 5, 2007, at 18:16:51
> I was just impressed by the words 'waxy flexibility'.
>
> Psychiatry is so lacking in style that you grab hold of every bit you can.I think it's kind of morbid, but then again
language was more poetic in the old days.
If they were to describe something like that
today, i imagine the word phrase would be:
body-tone deficiency (for example).Squiggles
Posted by gardenergirl on March 7, 2007, at 14:44:38
In reply to Re: Waxy flexibility, posted by Declan on March 5, 2007, at 18:16:51
It is a pretty good description, though. It describes how with some folks with catatonia, their limbs can be repositioned by others with ease, but they then assume the new pose with rigidity. It's like forming a "sculpture" in wax and then letting it "set up". It is a bit dehumanizing to describe a person's condition in a way that suggests they are more material than being. But the descriptive term does help to understand just what they are talking about.
namaste
gg
Posted by Declan on March 8, 2007, at 0:58:05
In reply to Re: Waxy flexibility, posted by gardenergirl on March 7, 2007, at 14:44:38
Waxy flexibility is there with Harry Stack Sullivan and Frieda Fromm-Reichmann, involutional melancholia, hysteria (and even ether) and all the other things that fill me with nostalgia.
I never would have expected this, it may be quite normal (Oh dear, I've used the N word) but it's said to be a bad thing (Doris Lessing "The Golden Notebook"?).
This is the end of the thread.
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