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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by babybear on January 16, 2006, at 22:29:45
OK, this may seem like a strange question, but I'm brand-new here and it's the first time I've found a community of people who would understand and be able to tell me if it's the same for them, and I really want to know.
I was diagnosed five years ago with depression and PTSD. I'm on 225mg of Effexor XR. I absolutely HAVE to get about 12 hours of sleep, either all at once or through naps, or I have no coping skills whatsoever and quickly go to pieces over any little thing. I hate sleeping my life away, but if I don't get the sleep I just don't have any life at all.
Is this just how depression is? It's just so hard to accept.
Can anyone share their situation with me?
Posted by sleepygirl on January 17, 2006, at 0:06:22
In reply to Is my need for sleep normal or a problem?, posted by babybear on January 16, 2006, at 22:29:45
I didn't mean to chuckle when I saw your post, but you see my name right?
I am also on 225mgs of effexor XR. I'm not sure if the effexor has anything to do with the sleepiness. What was your sleep pattern before it? If you post on the "psychobabble" meds board others may have some input on what sleepiness the effexor may cause. I've heard a lot of people say that somnolence is a side effect of effexor for them.I think I have always been a sort of "erratic" sleeper. I do need a lot of sleep I think in comparison to others. I don't know what your issues might be regarding the sleep thing, but I'll tell you mine since it is one of my "things".
Lately, this is my opinion on the matter: I am used to feeling totally overstimulated in certain situations, by virtue of my anxiety/mood.
Sleep is something that can offer some respite from the stressors of life, so it can seem quite precious, an escape, and a good opportunity to attain some freakin' equillibrium again since things seem to really freak me out.
If I sleep "too much" I tend to get more depressed.
If I haven't slept enough I tend to get irritable, even agitated.Is this getting in your way a lot?
-sleepygirl
Posted by babybear on January 17, 2006, at 14:40:31
In reply to Re: Is my need for sleep normal or a problem? » babybear, posted by sleepygirl on January 17, 2006, at 0:06:22
Sleepygirl,
Oh my gosh, I just had to giggle when I saw your response and checked out your name. I could have picked the same name!
Then, I just about cried when I read the rest of your post, because it was the first time that I saw someone else express what I feel. It's amazing what an impact that has.
I, too, have always had an erratic sleep pattern, and I've always seemed to need more sleep than everyone else. Then, when I started having real serious problems several years ago, the need for sleep was absolutely overwhelming. I was being treated for depression and PTSD and panic attacks and my therapist was explaining how I was "hyper-aware" all the time. It seemed that I needed to have lots of sleep to balance out everything else, but that always seemed hard to accept, even though I was, and am, living it. I keep thinking that I should be able to now cut back to 8 hours of sleep like "normal" people. But, if I do, it's just a matter of a day or so and I'm just an emotional mess. Then, I can crawl into bed for several hours of napping and wake up a new person.
I can be really, really tired at night, and yet not be able to fall asleep. My 'best' sleep is from 6 am to noon or so. My previous pdoc had me on Seroquel every night to help me sleep, but I had horrible nightmares and/or flashbacks almost every night and was twitching and thrashing. Once I got off of it I thought maybe I'd be able to sleep better at night on my own, which I do seem to do, but I still need the daytime naps to maintain my ability to cope.
I guess I should be grateful that I can feel OK as long as I get plenty of sleep, but it's hard not to resent the loss of time. There are so many things I'd like to do, but can't, because I need to sleep so much. I feel like I'm sleeping my life away, yet if I don't get the sleep, I really don't have a life.
I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Not feeling like "the only one" is very comforting. Sorry if I've been babbling.
Posted by sleepygirl on January 17, 2006, at 17:43:26
In reply to Re: Is my need for sleep normal or a problem?, posted by babybear on January 17, 2006, at 14:40:31
You're not babbling.......sleep is a totally valid concern which affects sooo much of your life.
I take seroquel (25mgs for anxiety) which knocks me out at night. Sometimes I have found that those late night hours feel "safer" some how - it's quiter for one, and there's no demands to "get up and go" like there are in the day. The problem though with sleeping later into the day is that nagging sense that one is missing life/not accomplishing stuff.
Lately I have endeavored to take the seroquel earlier, go to sleep, and wake up earlier even if I don't have to go somewhere just for this reason. I have heard from others though with PTSD about the nightmare issue with seroquel. I have more wacky and less scary dreams on it.
My own hyper-arousal likely stems from some very early trauma complicated by a chaotic life that always had me hypervigilant - this sort of stuff just builds and build upon itself though. Conditioned anxiety - avoidance - super-sensitive nervous system - all that, etc.
I am at the moment unemployed (laid off last few weeks), but even though my external stress is less because of it, my head can really start to race with all the many things I should or could do. What I'm hoping to do since I have the opportunity is to put some routines in place that sort of help to ease me into stimulation - exercise, seeing friends, doing work, but while trying to remain comfortable. This is no small task. I have some klonopin prn. It's hard not to overwhelm oneself, and it can be quite exhausting.
Don't be too hard on yourself, it'll only put you back. Be gentle with yourself. Be well.
-sleepygirl
Posted by babybear on January 18, 2006, at 17:38:48
In reply to Re: Is my need for sleep normal or a problem? » babybear, posted by sleepygirl on January 17, 2006, at 17:43:26
Sleepygirl,
Thank you so much for sharing some of your story, and for the good wishes. Can I ask some additional questions (you can always tell me to buzz off).
Do you find that you have to almost 'bank' the sleep? Like if you don't get enough for a couple of days that you have to sleep extra to make up for it? Or that if you have an extra-anxious day that you require additional sleep time because of it?
In reviewing my own situation, it does seem that I use the sleep as an escape or a regeneration or something like that after having a stressful time. My t has said that I tend to disassociate as a coping mechanism, and I guess maybe sleep is a form of disassociation.
I wish I could sleep at night, but I seem to be my most 'alert' at night, probably because of my past trauma history, so I tend to lay awake half the night and then finally get exhausted enough to sleep when the sun comes up.
I liked being on the Seroquel from the prospective of regulating the sleeping time, but the nightmares were just too much for me to take. Well, and too much for my husband to take too, since I'd often be "defending myself" during them, which resulted in punching and kicking him on quite a number of occasions. Poor guy. I probably gave him some permanent sleep phobias of his own. ;-)
I sometimes take Ambien when I can't get to sleep at night and know that my sleep-bank is overdrawn, but I don't want to take it very often, so I really limit it. It seems so odd to need sleep so badly, and then not be able to sleep at night, but that's how it is.
Thanks again for sharing, it has really meant the world to me.
Posted by sleepygirl on January 19, 2006, at 14:50:55
In reply to Re: Is my need for sleep normal or a problem?, posted by babybear on January 18, 2006, at 17:38:48
> Sleepygirl,
>
> Thank you so much for sharing some of your story, and for the good wishes. Can I ask some additional questions (you can always tell me to buzz off).You don't have to buzz off, now would I be on this crazy site if I minded reading and responding to posts? :-)
answer: uh-uh no way> Do you find that you have to almost 'bank' the sleep? Like if you don't get enough for a couple of days that you have to sleep extra to make up for it? Or that if you have an extra-anxious day that you require additional sleep time because of it?
yes, I absolutely have to make up for it.
If I have an extra anxious day it takes a while to wind down enough to sleep, so then I lose sleep and must sleep more later
>
> In reviewing my own situation, it does seem that I use the sleep as an escape or a regeneration or something like that after having a stressful time. My t has said that I tend to disassociate as a coping mechanism, and I guess maybe sleep is a form of disassociation.yeah I guess I've used it a lot to. I've had this lovely ability to "space out"
>
> I wish I could sleep at night, but I seem to be my most 'alert' at night, probably because of my past trauma history, so I tend to lay awake half the night and then finally get exhausted enough to sleep when the sun comes up.
>
> I liked being on the Seroquel from the prospective of regulating the sleeping time, but the nightmares were just too much for me to take. Well, and too much for my husband to take too, since I'd often be "defending myself" during them, which resulted in punching and kicking him on quite a number of occasions. Poor guy. I probably gave him some permanent sleep phobias of his own. ;-)I seem to yell at people in my sleep, it's so strange to wake up that way!
>
> I sometimes take Ambien when I can't get to sleep at night and know that my sleep-bank is overdrawn, but I don't want to take it very often, so I really limit it. It seems so odd to need sleep so badly, and then not be able to sleep at night, but that's how it is.That flight/fight response sounds like it's got you in it's clutches- like you're stuck in the trauma response. I know I've got a lot of this myself, but I can really appreciate it in you.
I've used sonata - it was nice
Well sometimes for me the events of the day and pressing issues go round and round my head when I try to go to sleep. Sleep can be a really difficult thing to come by when you just can't relax. It takes comfortability after all, and the ability to resign yourself to sleep - a bit of a surrender if you will. If things feel at all unsafe or unpredictable or whatever, sleep can be hard. I have had some success with slow deep breathing - it's just ONE good focus instead of a million, and a nice self soothing thing.
Is therapy helping at all?
>
> Thanks again for sharing, it has really meant the world to me.It's not a problem at all. I'm around here quite often. I hope you can tackle some of this stuff. Keep hope alive :-)
-sleepygirl(aka Sharon)
Posted by babybear on January 19, 2006, at 15:31:01
In reply to Re: Is my need for sleep normal or a problem? » babybear, posted by sleepygirl on January 19, 2006, at 14:50:55
Sleepygirl,
Thanks for responding again. It sounds like you know just how I'm feeling.
When you yell at people in your sleep, do you remember the dream clearly when you wake up, or is it just a matter of sort of knowing that's what was heppening? I remember so many of my dreams so vividly that it's almost like I'm more alive in my dreams than I am when I'm awake, if that makes any sense. So many of my dreams are related to re-living past trauma situations that it makes me scared to sleep sometimes.
You're so right about the flight/fight response and how the events of the day and pressing issues go round and round my head when I do try to go to sleep. That is spot on how I feel. Even non-pressing issues spin round and round. Things I should do, or should have done or said or said differently or done differently or ought to do. The "shoulds and oughts" are biggies. Even knowing that things can't be un-done doesn't seem to stop my head from trying to tell me how I should have done them differently.
I've tried a variety of ways to "relax" - but I don't know if I've ever actually felt relaxed in my whole life. I do the best with music, and often set something soothing on a timer when I go to bed. I even have some CD's with subliminal relaxation and sleep messages in them. I have a wonderful CD called Songs for the Inner Child which makes me feel good. It has some lullabye songs on it, which seem nice. I have also been trying to do some progressive body relaxation exercises, but seem to get caught up in whether I'm doing them "correctly" or not and end up over-analyzing them instead of relaxing from them.
I probably sound like a nut case, but believe it or not, therapy has helped me a lot, and continues to. I just got back from a session a little bit ago. In retrospect, I'm way, way better than I was a couple of years ago when I was completely debilitated by the panic and flashbacks. I have a history of childhood abuse, followed by an abusive first marriage, then an abusive situation at my job, and I just cracked one day. It's been a slow process putting the pieces back together, and my current t has been amazing. (My first t was one I wouldn't wish on anyone, and would still like to kick for the horrible excuse for advice they gave me.)
I know this is all a process and that it takes time, but I'm so sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, you know? I just want to wake up feeling good and refreshed, like those women in the TV commercials. LOL! Wake up with a smile on my face, wearing a nice lace nightgown, looking rosy and refreshed and without horrible bed-head. :-) I gave myself the giggles with that picture, because it's so NOT me.
It does remind me of a nice sentiment for you that I can close with (I saw this on a card once): May you always be as healthy and as happy as the people in the beer commercials always seem to be!
babybear
Posted by sleepygirl on January 21, 2006, at 14:18:23
In reply to Re: Is my need for sleep normal or a problem?, posted by babybear on January 19, 2006, at 15:31:01
> Sleepygirl,
>
> Thanks for responding again. It sounds like you know just how I'm feeling.Hello :-)
It's no problem responding. I can't know everything you experience, and it sounds pretty difficult, but I have had my share of anxiety/depression.
>
> When you yell at people in your sleep, do you remember the dream clearly when you wake up, or is it just a matter of sort of knowing that's what was heppening? I remember so many of my dreams so vividly that it's almost like I'm more alive in my dreams than I am when I'm awake, if that makes any sense. So many of my dreams are related to re-living past trauma situations that it makes me scared to sleep sometimes.It's interesting that happens when you're sleeping - of course a classic PTSD symptom, but I wonder if it is in some screwed up way an attempt to integrate the experience in your mind.
I usually don't remember much of the dream when I wake up yelling. It's an effort to recall my dreams and I have to do it right away.
>
> You're so right about the flight/fight response and how the events of the day and pressing issues go round and round my head when I do try to go to sleep. That is spot on how I feel. Even non-pressing issues spin round and round. Things I should do, or should have done or said or said differently or done differently or ought to do. The "shoulds and oughts" are biggies. Even knowing that things can't be un-done doesn't seem to stop my head from trying to tell me how I should have done them differently.
>
> I've tried a variety of ways to "relax" - but I don't know if I've ever actually felt relaxed in my whole life. I do the best with music, and often set something soothing on a timer when I go to bed. I even have some CD's with subliminal relaxation and sleep messages in them. I have a wonderful CD called Songs for the Inner Child which makes me feel good. It has some lullabye songs on it, which seem nice. I have also been trying to do some progressive body relaxation exercises, but seem to get caught up in whether I'm doing them "correctly" or not and end up over-analyzing them instead of relaxing from them.
>
> I probably sound like a nut case, but believe it or not, therapy has helped me a lot, and continues to. I just got back from a session a little bit ago. In retrospect, I'm way, way better than I was a couple of years ago when I was completely debilitated by the panic and flashbacks. I have a history of childhood abuse, followed by an abusive first marriage, then an abusive situation at my job, and I just cracked one day. It's been a slow process putting the pieces back together, and my current t has been amazing. (My first t was one I wouldn't wish on anyone, and would still like to kick for the horrible excuse for advice they gave me.)I certainly don't think you are a 'nutcase', but perhaps someone dealing with the devastatingly real and cumulative effects of traumas.
When you have a bad therapy experience it can be incredibly discouraging, because you're likely to already feel crappy and frustrated.
When you've had so much negative experience it can be hard to deal with all the layers that have built up since the beginning, to remember anything solid and safe and comforting.
>
> I know this is all a process and that it takes time, but I'm so sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, you know? I just want to wake up feeling good and refreshed, like those women in the TV commercials. LOL! Wake up with a smile on my face, wearing a nice lace nightgown, looking rosy and refreshed and without horrible bed-head. :-) I gave myself the giggles with that picture, because it's so NOT me.Things have to get easier, right? and that often times has been one of the only things I've had to cling onto. I've thankfully modified some of the too demanding expectations for myself. I sincerely couldn't say how, just with time, therapy, guidance, patience and acceptance, and a lot of grieving. I'm never "done" though. I am though sincerely grateful for how far I've come. I know it can be hard won. I sincerely appreciate that when I hear about how difficult things were for you a couple of years ago. It can be so difficult to be patient though, but it is really big that you find your T helpful. You deserve the support.
> It does remind me of a nice sentiment for you that I can close with (I saw this on a card once): May you always be as healthy and as happy as the people in the beer commercials always seem to be!
>
> babybearThanks babybear ;-)
>
>
Posted by Karla on February 13, 2006, at 21:19:11
In reply to Is my need for sleep normal or a problem?, posted by babybear on January 16, 2006, at 22:29:45
I was on 300mg of effexor for many years and would sleep 12-15 hrs a day every day. I had to get in naps if I couldn't sleep straight through or I would have a melt down like you. I finally got off of it and went on cymbalta. I am wide awake now! amazing how life can pass a person by.
Posted by babybear on February 13, 2006, at 21:37:22
In reply to Re: Is my need for sleep normal or a problem?, posted by Karla on February 13, 2006, at 21:19:11
> I was on 300mg of effexor for many years and would sleep 12-15 hrs a day every day. I had to get in naps if I couldn't sleep straight through or I would have a melt down like you. I finally got off of it and went on cymbalta. I am wide awake now! amazing how life can pass a person by.
Karla, did you have any problems switching from one to the other on the meds? Did you notice a difference right away? My pdoc seems to think that sleeping all the time is "fine" as long as I'm not crying all the time, but I'm so upset about my life "passing me by" like you said.
Posted by sleepygirl on February 14, 2006, at 0:20:10
In reply to Re: Is my need for sleep normal or a problem?, posted by Karla on February 13, 2006, at 21:19:11
definitely good to know, thanks. It's been so long I don't remember how much sleep I needed before effexor.
This is the end of the thread.
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