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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ed_uk on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:47
Amphetamine derivatives could be useful in treating Parkinson’s disease symptoms
Amphetamine-type drugs may be beneficial for treating symptoms of Parkinson’s disease, according to new data from the US.
Researchers developed mouse models of Parkinson’s disease that were unable to produce or recycle dopamine. As expected, the Parkinson’s symptoms were reversed by the administration of dopamine agonists and the dopamine precursor levodopa. However, a number of amphetamine derivatives were also found to reduce the akinesia and rigidity of the mice, via a mechanism not thought to involve dopamine. One drug, 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), the chemical entity found in ecstasy, was found to be especially effective in restoring movement control in a dose-dependent manner, giving the mice enough mobility to move forwards.
The researchers also found that low doses of amphetamines helped to potentiate the action of levodopa.
Raul Gainetdinov, assistant research professor in the team from Duke University Medical Centre, North Carolina, said: “Amphetamines are controversial drugs, and there is no reason to suggest that amphetamines themselves should be used to treat Parkinson’s. However, the chemical structure of amphetamines may lead to new, amphetamine-like drugs that might provoke a more lasting and beneficial alternative to levodopa in the treatment of Parkinson’s disease.” (PLoS 2005;3:e271).
Posted by linkadge on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:48
In reply to Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by ed_uk on August 12, 2005, at 14:47:11
How to amphetamines affect the course of the illness? Specifically, I am wondering how amphetamines affect the integrity dopamine receptors ?
Linkadge
Posted by xbunny on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:48
In reply to Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by ed_uk on August 12, 2005, at 14:47:11
> Amphetamine derivatives could be useful in treating Parkinson’s disease symptoms
>One drug, 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), the chemical entity found in ecstasy, was found to be especially effective in restoring movement control in a dose-dependent manner, giving the mice enough mobility to move forwards.
I remember this documentary about a guy with Parkinson's who took ecstacy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/ecstasyagony.shtml
I think of interest was that the medical team scanned the guys brain whilst he was on ecstacy and found dopamine wasnt involved.
Buns
Posted by ed_uk on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:48
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by linkadge on August 12, 2005, at 15:23:42
Hi Link,
I was thinking they might be detrimental in the long run..... could a low dose of amphetamine be neurotoxic for a person with PD?
~Ed
Posted by ed_uk on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:48
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by xbunny on August 12, 2005, at 15:24:29
Hi Buns!
I watched it too :-)
~Ed
Posted by lizabent on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:48
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's? » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on August 12, 2005, at 15:34:35
Hi y'all,
I'm new, but I hope you don't mind if I throw in my $.02 US...There are several different theories of the etiology of Parkinson's Disease. What this means in science, normally, is that there are indeed probably many different etiologies! Irreversible symptoms of PD can be brought on instantly by dopaminergic neurotoxins, such as the infamous MPTP cases in San Jose, California, USA. There are also the early-onset cases of PD that onset during the early 40's, which researchers now tend to think are mainly genetic in origin. Then you have the prototypical cases wherein a person starts to show symptoms in their 50's or 60's.
What this means is that no one treatment for PD is going to be great for everyone (as with cancer, depression, you name it) because many cases will have different causes. In some cases, it is due to the disintegration of dopamine-producing cells, in others it is due to defects in receptor proliferation, and in others, it has to do with defects in the streams that transmit dopamine-encoded information.
It isn't like PD is caused by a bacteria that, if killed, will disappear. So it is good that they are trying amphetamines with these people, to try to find ways to treat the different sorts. After all, if your dopaminergic neurons are already dead, it probably can't hurt to try something to stimulate the postsynaptic neurons or they will die off too, since they need input to survive (use it or lose it prevails in neuroscience).
BTW, I was really interested in the studies that showed that smokers had decreased prevalence of PD. Food (and cigarettes...) for thought.
Liz
Posted by med_empowered on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:48
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's? » ed_uk, posted by lizabent on August 12, 2005, at 16:20:23
I found this research really interesting for a number of reasons...for one thing, it challenges our whole "say no to drugs" philosophy (in the US at least, this anti-drug thing is making psychiatric treatment less effective and causing a lot of pain management docs to just give up). I mean, if speed and Ecstasy can help people, with (it would appear at this point) a minimum of side-effects, how do we justify continuing on with this ridiculous "no to pot, yes to prozac" campaign? And there are other cases where "bad" drugs can be incredibly useful--opiates for depression, for example, or pot for bipolar disorder and illness/treatment-induced nausea. And...did you notice how the researchers suggested "new drugs" may come to the market some day (presumably, this will take at least 10 years). Well..the research was based on the current crop of meds...meds which are cheap and off-patent. Why should we wait 10, 15 years for Eli Lilly to develop some drug based on Ecstasy that will cost massive $$$ and cause side-effects of its own? I think if medicine was truly *humane*, and truly interested in both helping people NOW and developing better treatments in the future, we could go ahead and do some more widespread investigational treatments with Ecstasy and other amphetamine-derivatives. As for potential downsides of this kind of treatment..I don't think we'll have anything but theories about side-effects/adverse reactions until some really good, really in-depth research is done. Given how quickly "acceptable" drugs--atypical antipsychotics, antidepressants-- are used for "off-label" uses with a minimum of evidence, doesn't it make sense to go ahead and do some hardcore inquiry into the use of the drugs we have now for conditions such as Parkinson's?
Posted by ed_uk on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:48
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by med_empowered on August 12, 2005, at 16:30:58
Hi Med,
You make some great points as usual :-)
>...did you notice how the researchers suggested "new drugs" may come to the market some day (presumably, this will take at least 10 years). Well..the research was based on the current crop of meds...meds which are cheap and off-patent. Why should we wait 10, 15 years for Eli Lilly to develop some drug based on Ecstasy that will cost massive $$$ and cause side-effects of its own?
I stole the article from the UK pharmaceutical journal :-O
>........causing a lot of pain management docs to just give up.............
Don't get me started! The popular "don't prescribe opioids unless the patient is about to die" attitude makes me sick to the stomach.
>Given how quickly "acceptable" drugs--atypical antipsychotics, antidepressants-- are used for "off-label" uses with a minimum of evidence, doesn't it make sense to go ahead and do some hardcore inquiry into the use of the drugs we have now for conditions such as Parkinson's?
Apparantly, docs prefer to prescribe highly toxic drugs (with no 'recreational' value) rather than prescribing much less toxic drugs which can have 'recreational' value. Thumbs down to the 'war on drugs'.
Ed x
Posted by linkadge on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:48
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's? » med_empowered, posted by ed_uk on August 12, 2005, at 16:47:33
I would like to see some research done on the anthocyannin dyes found in blueberries. They release dopamine (albiet to a lesser degree than amphetamines), but they also have interesting effects on GDNF, a growth factor that trophs the dopaminergic system.
Linkadge
Posted by Paulbwell on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:49
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by linkadge on August 12, 2005, at 19:48:58
U.S. medical researchers say they've discovered amphetamines can reverse the symptoms of Parkinson's disease in mice with an acute form of the condition.
The researchers at the Duke University Medical Center cautioned their findings in animals do not suggest Parkinson's disease patients should find relief by taking amphetamines, which are drugs that can be abused and have many dangerous side effects.
Rather, the findings indicate drugs with similar chemical attributes might offer useful alternatives to current therapies, the researchers said.
The study also showed amphetamines -- normally thought to act by increasing dopamine concentrations in the brain -- correct the behavioral abnormalities associated with Parkinson's in mice devoid of the brain messenger.
Parkinson's disease stems from the degeneration of neurons in a brain region that controls movement. That degeneration, in turn, leads to a shortage of the chemical messenger dopamine.
The finding that amphetamines can alter movement independently of dopamine opens new directions in the search for prospective anti-Parkinson's drugs, the researchers said.
The team reports its findings in the August issue of Public Library of Science (PLoS) Biology.
Copyright 2005 by United Press International. All Rights Reserved.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Amphetamines may help Parkinsons
DURHAM, N.C., Aug. 1 (UPI)
Posted by linkadge on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:49
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by Paulbwell on August 13, 2005, at 1:18:25
Wasn't Hitler using amphetamines to treat his parkinson's ?
I just can't see how its a cure really. Stims don't really correct a shortage of dopamine, they simply release what is available. Would a crash be associated with a rebound, or an emergence of even more severe symptoms ?
Linkadge
Posted by Paulbwell on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:49
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2005, at 2:04:38
> Wasn't Hitler using amphetamines to treat his parkinson's ?
>
>>
>
Hitler was unable to function from 1942 on without Methyamphetamine injections (into nis buttocks) up to 8 times daily by his ever present Doc Morell. this almost certaintly contributed to his psychotic demeanor behaviour. His troops were givwn Perviten (Meth) from around the same time to cause quasi-agression
Posted by Sarah T. on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:49
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2005, at 2:04:38
Hi Linkadge,
I don't know the answer to your question; however, several years ago, I read a few articles about both cocaine and Ecstasy causing Parkinson's Disease and/or Parkinsonism (Parkinson's Disease-like symptoms). In some particularly sensitive, susceptible individuals, a single experience with Ecstasy can cause Parkinson's-like symptoms.
Posted by linkadge on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:49
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's? (nm), posted by linkadge on August 13, 2005, at 15:09:24
Whoops, didn't mean to have no message above.
Anyway, I was just thinking that a stimulant may decrease parkinsonism symptomatically due to the sudden release of dopamine. I just don't know weather a stimulant induced dopamine depletion would occur, and whether there would be a corresponding exacerbation of symptoms at this point.
Interstingly though, coffee and caffiene intake has been inversly correlated to risk of developing parkinsons, as well as cigarette smoking. The mechanisms for their effect may be independant of their stimulant effect. But it is interesting that statistically, they provide more than symptomatic improvement.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:49
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by linkadge on August 13, 2005, at 2:04:38
There was one book I read that argued that Hitler used amphetamine and occasionally cocaine from 1940 or so on, certainly during and after Stalingrad. It convinced me, but the academic consensus is that it is unproven and the evidence unpersuasive. I forget the name of the book, it had 2 authors, I think.
The idea was that the vitamins he took were in fact amphetamine specially manufactured for him. Plus Dr Morrell, who gets a very bad press but who may have had alternative ideas on treatments. (I dunno how this gels with methamphetamine injections, but as it was an affair of state etc).
And right at the end of the war, after Dr Morrell had gone, I think, he needed treatment of his sinuses which involved repeated doses of cocaine.
The methamphetamine could have damaged his dopamine receptors (oxidative stress?) while according him some relief. The treatment relieves and aggravates the condition, well sometimes anyway.Declan
Posted by Paulbwell on August 13, 2005, at 19:22:49
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by Declan on August 13, 2005, at 16:19:00
> There was one book I read that argued that Hitler used amphetamine and occasionally cocaine from 1940 or so on, certainly during and after Stalingrad. It convinced me, but the academic consensus is that it is unproven and the evidence unpersuasive. I forget the name of the book, it had 2 authors, I think.
>
> The idea was that the vitamins he took were in fact amphetamine specially manufactured for him. Plus Dr Morrell, who gets a very bad press but who may have had alternative ideas on treatments. (I dunno how this gels with methamphetamine injections, but as it was an affair of state etc).
>
> And right at the end of the war, after Dr Morrell had gone, I think, he needed treatment of his sinuses which involved repeated doses of cocaine.
>
> The methamphetamine could have damaged his dopamine receptors (oxidative stress?) while according him some relief. The treatment relieves and aggravates the condition, well sometimes anyway.
>
> DeclanIt is well documented that Hitler took huge amounts of Methedrine-liquid methamphetamine,8 or more shots daily, along with MANY other drugs,which no doubt helped to highten his maniacal behaviour and it wouldn't surprise me to hear he took Cocaine. These all no doubt helped to block out the results of what his decisions caused to millions.
Interestingly JFK took (early 1960s) Steriods for Addisions, Amphetamine injections, Ritalin, Tuinal (Barbiturate) methadone, Codeine, and other Opiates.-It was sugested that no president with his finger on the red button had any right taking Speed.
Posted by Declan on August 17, 2005, at 5:12:25
In reply to Re: Amphetamine derivatives for Parkinson's?, posted by Paulbwell on August 13, 2005, at 18:58:38
You're right Paul, about the speed and the finger on the trigger. Interesting now that he seems so reassuring looking back from here.
Nostalgia?
Declan
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