![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by zeugma on August 24, 2004, at 19:13:31
I have a closet that I haven't gone near in about five years, because I noticed paint was disintegrating and leaving a dust over evrerything. A friend I spoke to at the time told me I should tell the super of my building, but at the time I was too dysfunctional to want anyone in my apt. And as thinking about the problem made me nervous, I just avoided it.
Now I'm becoming a little more functional, and am trying to keep up maintainance of my apt. I also need a certain document which I think is in there. Should I be concerned about inhaling paint dust if I use a hand vacuum? I need feedback because I am always afraid of inhaling toxins but I really need that document.
Thanks,
z
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2004, at 8:57:37
In reply to Q about paint dust, posted by zeugma on August 24, 2004, at 19:13:31
> I have a closet that I haven't gone near in about five years, because I noticed paint was disintegrating and leaving a dust over evrerything. A friend I spoke to at the time told me I should tell the super of my building, but at the time I was too dysfunctional to want anyone in my apt. And as thinking about the problem made me nervous, I just avoided it.
>
> Now I'm becoming a little more functional, and am trying to keep up maintainance of my apt. I also need a certain document which I think is in there. Should I be concerned about inhaling paint dust if I use a hand vacuum? I need feedback because I am always afraid of inhaling toxins but I really need that document.
>
> Thanks,
>
> zIf there enough dust that you can see it when you disturb something, I'd say there's a risk. It's not so much about toxins as it is about inhaling fine particles. Really, if this is a maintenance issue, can you not take it up with your landlord?
Paint is made up of three components. One is an emulsion (latex) or a resin (oil paint) that will bind the pigments when the paint dries. Another is the pigment, the part that makes the paint opaque (tinting is another subcomponent, but there's really very little tint). The third is the solvent, whatever it is that dries out of the paint to leave the film behind. That's water in latex paints, and organic solvent in oil paints.
OK, what you have there is really really cheap latex paint. The most expensive component of paint is the binder. Cheap paint skimps on binders (you get what you pay for), and the paint never hardens properly, making it prone to chalking. That's nothing more than free pigment. Household latex paint uses titanium dioxide as the pigment. It's really quite inert, from a toxicological perspective. The problem is how fine the dust is. You don't want to breathe it in, because it can get deep into your lungs, and it might give you some trouble getting your lungs clear again (that's what mucus is for, but there's no point overloading the normal dust-removal process).
To do it right, you need a proper dust mask (not those paper cones), and a vacuum with HEPA filter capability. That's maybe something you can rent, but I think the landlord should be dealing with this, not you? If you use your hand-held vac, and it has a cloth bag, dampen it before you start. It will probably clog (listen for the motor tone to increase in pitch), but cleaning the filter a few times is less hassle than clearing your lungs. Either way, get a proper mask.
Lar
Posted by zeugma on August 25, 2004, at 9:55:09
In reply to Re: Q about paint dust » zeugma, posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2004, at 8:57:37
thank you so much Larry. My vacuum has a HEPA filter. I am going to get a proper mask this week and clean it out.
-z
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 26, 2004, at 11:13:25
In reply to Re: Q about paint dust » Larry Hoover, posted by zeugma on August 25, 2004, at 9:55:09
> thank you so much Larry. My vacuum has a HEPA filter. I am going to get a proper mask this week and clean it out.
>
> -zGreat! You're welcome.
Lar
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on August 31, 2004, at 2:08:13
In reply to Re: Q about paint dust » zeugma, posted by Larry Hoover on August 26, 2004, at 11:13:25
I am helping paint a house that is about 65 years old at least. The parts inside are well over 100. Anyway, there is real paneling in it and the imitation paneling in it. There were smokers in the house as renters. They literally turned the ceilings and walls an ugly brown, so I primed the walls and ceilings tiles with Kilz. Due to the paneling situation, I have literally had to paint the walls about 4 times with Kilz colored paint. The walls just drink up the paint. My question is that everytime I am in the house I sneeze a lot. I don't know if it's the painting or just dust. What do you think Lar?
This house doesn't have insulation behind the paneling. It has (get this) boxes from a parachute factory.
The house has asbestos siding, but I have done my reading and their is less than 1% asbestos in siding on this house. My grandparents never had a health problems from it. They lived well into their 80's. The guy next door is 100! I am just rolling with a one coat Kilz paint on the house. It looks brand new.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 31, 2004, at 8:09:45
In reply to Re: Q about paint, posted by Shadowplayers721 on August 31, 2004, at 2:08:13
> I am helping paint a house that is about 65 years old at least. The parts inside are well over 100. Anyway, there is real paneling in it and the imitation paneling in it. There were smokers in the house as renters. They literally turned the ceilings and walls an ugly brown, so I primed the walls and ceilings tiles with Kilz. Due to the paneling situation, I have literally had to paint the walls about 4 times with Kilz colored paint. The walls just drink up the paint. My question is that everytime I am in the house I sneeze a lot. I don't know if it's the painting or just dust. What do you think Lar?
Two major concepts. 1. A house that old has lead-based paint. Now they use titanium for the opaque quality of paint. Before, they used lead. If you sand any old surface, you *must* use a dust respirator, and a properly filtered vacuum. Flaking old paint should be thought of as hazardous waste. 2. Sneezing makes me think of mold. Damp basements. Individual sensitivity to mold spores varies dramatically, but some are proven to be neurotoxic. If you're planning on living there, or re-renting the property, an electrostatic precipitator might be a good idea. If heat is via hot water/radiators, then they don't work very well. However, the latter actually promotes mold, as air is more stagnant within the house.
> This house doesn't have insulation behind the paneling. It has (get this) boxes from a parachute factory.
Then it also does not have a vapour barrier. That also is a factor in mold growth.
> The house has asbestos siding, but I have done my reading and their is less than 1% asbestos in siding on this house. My grandparents never had a health problems from it. They lived well into their 80's. The guy next door is 100! I am just rolling with a one coat Kilz paint on the house. It looks brand new.
>
>Asbestos siding is safe, so long as it is not falling apart. You're quite wise to keep it painted.
Lar
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on August 31, 2004, at 18:01:23
In reply to Re: Q about paint » Shadowplayers721, posted by Larry Hoover on August 31, 2004, at 8:09:45
Most of the windows on the outside are chiping. Yes, I totally agree with you that I need protection. Are these respirators available in hard ware stores? As far as the inside windows, I am just painting over the paint. It's not chipped. It's just stained. By the way, the house is raised, and there is sand under it. I never thought about the mold. I am highly allergic to mold. There is one room that makes me really sneeze and I don't know why yet. But, it is the room that I have painted the most on. Wait, I just remember it is next to the bathroom. That may be where the mold is. My grandfather made a shower stall. The previous renters allowed the water to go ever where. I bet there is mold in the bathroom behind the paneling.
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 2, 2004, at 6:28:21
In reply to Re: Q about paint, posted by Shadowplayers721 on August 31, 2004, at 18:01:23
> Most of the windows on the outside are chiping. Yes, I totally agree with you that I need protection. Are these respirators available in hard ware stores?
Home Depot, I would think.
> As far as the inside windows, I am just painting over the paint. It's not chipped. It's just stained. By the way, the house is raised, and there is sand under it.
You mean the sand is in a crawl space? That can be a serious source of moisture.
> I never thought about the mold. I am highly allergic to mold. There is one room that makes me really sneeze and I don't know why yet. But, it is the room that I have painted the most on. Wait, I just remember it is next to the bathroom. That may be where the mold is. My grandfather made a shower stall. The previous renters allowed the water to go ever where. I bet there is mold in the bathroom behind the paneling.
I think you have solved the mystery, Holmes.
Lar
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on September 2, 2004, at 20:21:32
In reply to Re: Q about paint » Shadowplayers721, posted by Larry Hoover on September 2, 2004, at 6:28:21
"You mean the sand is in a crawl space? That can be a serious source of moisture."
It's a mix of mud and sand under the raised house. Someone said there is a rat snake under it, but it is my friend. I said, "OOOOOkay" I never cared for snakes, but this one is my friend. There are those mole animals around the place too. This house is in the country. I saw a possium (sp?) literally pick up the 100 y/o neighbor's shovel and move it with his little hands. Yikes!! You can tell I am from the city. All I know is if I see a rattlesnake, it better be a dead one. Whew!!!
Back to the house...I see weird frogs with horns on their heads living under it and plants keep trying to grow under it too. Must be some fertile ground under that house.
One day, I was walking under the porch for some reason I felt something was looking at me. I don't know what it was, but it buried itself in a hole real fast after it saw me turn my head. I was like, "What the devil was that?" Ugh! Also, there were a swarm of lady bugs in the house flying around. Gees. I felt one with nature for sure. Once I was in the bathroom and something pushed up the floor board. "What the??" I have never use a gun, but I do get an urge to have a rifle when living up there. I keep thinking, I might shoot my own shadow though. Hmmmm
Posted by gromit on October 25, 2004, at 6:44:25
In reply to Re: Q about paint dust » zeugma, posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2004, at 8:57:37
Hi,
Well I guess this question is for Larry since he is the toxic stuff expert. Do you know anything about exposure to isocyanates? I worked in the auto body business for 10 yrs. or so and breathed alot of paint, primer and other nasty things. All of the stuff had labels warning about isocyanates but I was young, dumb and full of mostly pizza and THC.
I sprayed a ton of this stuff without a respirator. Not to mention rubbing compound etc which also had alot of warnings. I'm wondering if this could be a partial cause of my problems.
Thanks
Rick
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 25, 2004, at 9:12:45
In reply to Re: Q about paint dust » Larry Hoover, posted by gromit on October 25, 2004, at 6:44:25
> Hi,
>
> Well I guess this question is for Larry since he is the toxic stuff expert. Do you know anything about exposure to isocyanates?Not specifically, but I'd understand fully anything that I found in toxicity references.
> I worked in the auto body business for 10 yrs. or so and breathed alot of paint, primer and other nasty things. All of the stuff had labels warning about isocyanates but I was young, dumb and full of mostly pizza and THC.
Ya. I drove chemical tankers. Nasty fumes, sometimes.
> I sprayed a ton of this stuff without a respirator. Not to mention rubbing compound etc which also had alot of warnings. I'm wondering if this could be a partial cause of my problems.
>
>
> Thanks
> RickWell, I don't know just what your problems are, so it might be hard to link them, eh?
First off, there are isocyanates and then there are isocyanates. Very broad chemical category, but they are very reactive chemicals. Bhopal India/Union Carbide was an isocyanate exposure incident.
The most likely damage is respiratory. Some of that damage is permanent, I'm afraid. Expect problems with diminished capacity for oxygen uptake, via various mechanisms. If you are a smoker (of anything), quit.
There's a lot of other nasty stuff floating around paint shops. Solvent exposure (all quick-drying paints are quick-drying because of the volatility of the carrier solvent) is linked to permanent cognitive impairment and memory difficulties. However, new information about brain plasticity does suggest that you can restore some brain function by working your brain. Just as with muscle, use it.
I'm not going to get into too many details of my own history, but let it be said that I ought not to have a functional brain right now, given what I exposed it to.
Work that brain, dude. Mental pushups.
Lar
Posted by gromit on October 26, 2004, at 3:00:50
In reply to Re: Q about paint dust » gromit, posted by Larry Hoover on October 25, 2004, at 9:12:45
> Well, I don't know just what your problems are, so it might be hard to link them, eh?
Well what you said below, cognitive impairment, memory loss. That is the part I was wondering about I guess. Also social anxiety, depression, what my doctor called Excessive Daytime Sleepiness.
> First off, there are isocyanates and then there are isocyanates. Very broad chemical category, but they are very reactive chemicals. Bhopal India/Union Carbide was an isocyanate exposure incident.
>
> The most likely damage is respiratory. Some of that damage is permanent, I'm afraid. Expect problems with diminished capacity for oxygen uptake, via various mechanisms. If you are a smoker (of anything), quit.Yes I quit smoking everything but cigarettes right when I quit the auto body business. Quit the smokes about 5 years ago. Could my constant tiredness and brain fog be a lack of oxygen?
> There's a lot of other nasty stuff floating around paint shops. Solvent exposure (all quick-drying paints are quick-drying because of the volatility of the carrier solvent) is linked to permanent cognitive impairment and memory difficulties. However, new information about brain plasticity does suggest that you can restore some brain function by working your brain. Just as with muscle, use it.
Yeah, I even used to clean my hands after work with lacquer thinner and a scotch brite pad :< not to mention the stuff in the air.
> I'm not going to get into too many details of my own history, but let it be said that I ought not to have a functional brain right now, given what I exposed it to.
Well you wouldn't know it by reading your posts.
> Work that brain, dude. Mental pushups.
I just realized why your posts are so easy to understand, at least the reason for me. White space is your friend.
Thanks
Rick
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2004, at 9:02:14
In reply to Re: Q about paint dust » Larry Hoover, posted by gromit on October 26, 2004, at 3:00:50
> > Well, I don't know just what your problems are, so it might be hard to link them, eh?
>
> Well what you said below, cognitive impairment, memory loss. That is the part I was wondering about I guess. Also social anxiety, depression, what my doctor called Excessive Daytime Sleepiness.Perhaps you're working under a less appropriate model for what ails you? It seems that chronic fatigue syndrome might be a useful symptom cluster to consider.
I think in terms of symptom clusters, not diagnoses per se. The reason is that many of my symptoms covary. As one in the cluster worsens, the whole group worsens, and vice versa. My symptoms do not fall nicely into the little symbolic box called major depression.
Non-restorative sleep is a key issue to resolve. I suspect that what you're calling daytime sleepiness is nothing more than sleep failing to do its job of permitting you to wake fully rested.
> > First off, there are isocyanates and then there are isocyanates. Very broad chemical category, but they are very reactive chemicals. Bhopal India/Union Carbide was an isocyanate exposure incident.
> >
> > The most likely damage is respiratory. Some of that damage is permanent, I'm afraid. Expect problems with diminished capacity for oxygen uptake, via various mechanisms. If you are a smoker (of anything), quit.
>
> Yes I quit smoking everything but cigarettes right when I quit the auto body business. Quit the smokes about 5 years ago. Could my constant tiredness and brain fog be a lack of oxygen?Only if you're weasing, feeling a struggle to breathe. Emphysema, for example, or asthma that doesn't respond to meds.
> > There's a lot of other nasty stuff floating around paint shops. Solvent exposure (all quick-drying paints are quick-drying because of the volatility of the carrier solvent) is linked to permanent cognitive impairment and memory difficulties. However, new information about brain plasticity does suggest that you can restore some brain function by working your brain. Just as with muscle, use it.
>
> Yeah, I even used to clean my hands after work with lacquer thinner and a scotch brite pad :< not to mention the stuff in the air.Yes, not to mention the stuff in the air. You become used to the daily exposure, hardly noticing the smell. Yet, someone comes into the shop for the first time, and it's overwhelming.
Also, skin contact permits direct trans-cutaneous exposure. Skin is remarkably porous, especially to organic solvents, as they dissolve into the skin.
> > I'm not going to get into too many details of my own history, but let it be said that I ought not to have a functional brain right now, given what I exposed it to.
>
> Well you wouldn't know it by reading your posts.Well, you see, I am speaking from experience. All is not lost.
I suppose I got a fairly decent helping of intelligence, way back when, but for many years, I just about did my utmost to destroy that all. Have you ever seen the anti-drug commercial where they represent a brain as a bunch of coiled wires, and drugs are like wire cutters, breaking connections? Sparks flying, smoke in the air? I was using bolt cutters, and hey, I came out the other side. One example....I purposely overdosed on PCP every day for over a year. Me and the boys, we were playing overdose chicken. First guy to come to, was a wuss.
> > Work that brain, dude. Mental pushups.
>
> I just realized why your posts are so easy to understand, at least the reason for me. White space is your friend.Thank you. I am a gifted public speaker. I try to write like I speak.
>
>
> Thanks
> Rick
>I don't know where your "geek threshold" is, but a guy by the name of Pall has developed a unifying theory for chronic fatigue, PTSD, and multiple chemical sensitivity (your solvent exposure may have been the triggering stimulus). Here's a link to a full-text article. The intervention is antioxidant supplementation, and increased intake of the substances which are damaged by oxidative stress. More, anon.
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content-nw/full/16/11/1407There are hotlinks in the references. Make sure you click on reference #28.
Lar
Posted by gromit on October 27, 2004, at 1:48:47
In reply to Re: Q about paint dust » gromit, posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2004, at 9:02:14
> Perhaps you're working under a less appropriate model for what ails you? It seems that chronic fatigue syndrome might be a useful symptom cluster to consider.
>
> I think in terms of symptom clusters, not diagnoses per se. The reason is that many of my symptoms covary. As one in the cluster worsens, the whole group worsens, and vice versa. My symptoms do not fall nicely into the little symbolic box called major depression.
>
> Non-restorative sleep is a key issue to resolve. I suspect that what you're calling daytime sleepiness is nothing more than sleep failing to do its job of permitting you to wake fully rested.That is what my doctor called it, not me. I think he is a quack which is why I'm searching for a new and improved pdoc. I don't know, I sleep like the dead when I finally fall asleep, but actually I do better with very little sleep over the short term, eventually it catches up to me. I agree a diagnosis is a means to an end and I don't understand why doctors are so hung up on it. I mean I understand the whole scientific method thing, but it seems to me that is important on the research end of things not the business end.
> Only if you're weasing, feeling a struggle to breathe. Emphysema, for example, or asthma that doesn't respond to meds.No, those days are behind me since quiting smoking and breathing toxins 10 hrs a day.
> Yes, not to mention the stuff in the air. You become used to the daily exposure, hardly noticing the smell. Yet, someone comes into the shop for the first time, and it's overwhelming.This made me laugh out loud, I used to really enjoy the suits walking in and watching them go all rubber chicken. I guess the joke was on me though.
> Also, skin contact permits direct trans-cutaneous exposure. Skin is remarkably porous, especially to organic solvents, as they dissolve into the skin.Yeah, and I used to help it by spraying thinner on my hands thru a spray gun.
> I suppose I got a fairly decent helping of intelligence, way back when, but for many years, I just about did my utmost to destroy that all. Have you ever seen the anti-drug commercial where they represent a brain as a bunch of coiled wires, and drugs are like wire cutters, breaking connections? Sparks flying, smoke in the air? I was using bolt cutters, and hey, I came out the other side. One example....I purposely overdosed on PCP every day for over a year. Me and the boys, we were playing overdose chicken. First guy to come to, was a wuss.
Well you don't seem short on intelligence, but that was not your finest hour, I'm not a big religious guy but there was a reason you made it past this and other things.
> Thank you. I am a gifted public speaker. I try to write like I speak.Well I envy you there, I'm more of a private speaker myself although not really too gifted.
> I don't know where your "geek threshold" is, but a guy by the name of Pall has developed a unifying theory for chronic fatigue, PTSD, and multiple chemical sensitivity (your solvent exposure may have been the triggering stimulus). Here's a link to a full-text article. The intervention is antioxidant supplementation, and increased intake of the substances which are damaged by oxidative stress. More, anon.
> http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content-nw/full/16/11/1407
>
> There are hotlinks in the references. Make sure you click on reference #28.Well my geek factor has been reduced considerably as of late, but I did manage to read and mostly understand #28. Arghh, I have been taking arginine for the last month for the purpose of increasing NO. I also take lecithin to try to increase my choline which I though was a good thing, but then I always seem to pick the slowest line at the supermarket too.
Thanks
Rick
Posted by AMD on October 31, 2004, at 17:22:41
In reply to Re: Q about paint dust » gromit, posted by Larry Hoover on October 25, 2004, at 9:12:45
Larry,
I am literally FREAKING OUT about paint fumes I inhaled on Thursday. I was having such a good week, obsession wise. Then I wake up Thursday to the smell of fumes in my apartment. The door faces the outside. Contractors apparently were painting the door, and the fumes must have seeped inside. So immediately I panicked. I opened the windows and the smell began to dissipate, so I went back to bed for a few hours. I couldn't "smell" the fumes so much once I'd gone to bed -- at least they'd gone away a bit.
Anyhow, I got up, showered, but as I left for work I plunged immediately into freaked-out mode. Then at work I had an inability to concentratem feeling yucky with a headache. I'm not sure if any of this was related to the fumes, but now I'm very, very worried that I got permanent mental impairment -- I am still feeling gross a few days later, and still freaking out. The apartment no longer smells of fumes, but the smell was so horrid Thursday that I pictured my brain simply melting away.
So now I sit here and can't concentrate at ALL. Looking up toxic chemicals on the Internet and so forth.
Anyhow, I called the contractors and had them fax me the label of the paint they were using. I don't know what else they used -- probably a paint thinner, etc. I'm positive I have brain damage. :-( :-(
The paint was oil-based as well, those idiots. If they'd only used latex I wouldn't be so scared.
The toxic ingredients were:
mineral spirits
soya alkyd polymer
quartz
calcium carbonate
xylene
ethylbenzeneVOC: 375g/L - 3.13 lb/gal
The paint was "Controls Rust" interior/exterior alkyd gloss enamel. Must be tinted before using.
590 fl oz, ~5 gallons
I didn't have red eyes (maybe a little) or difficult breathing, but I went to the doctor had had an oxygen level of 97/100, which is a bit low...
Anyhow -- was permanent damage done? Even assuming the worst case, indoor painting with lots of fumes and no ventilation, nausea from breathing the fumes, a "drunken" feeling, etc., would there be permanent brain damage in that case?
I can't concentrate so I'm assuming this is related to damage to my frontal cortex.
Does the fetid smell indicate worse brain damage ...
HELP!!!
a
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 18:33:33
In reply to HELP!!! :( :( Freaking out about paint fumes » Larry Hoover, posted by AMD on October 31, 2004, at 17:22:41
> Larry,
>
> I am literally FREAKING OUT about paint fumes I inhaled on Thursday.Yes, you are. If anything hurt you this week, it was the freaking out part. Bear with me.
> I was having such a good week, obsession wise. Then I wake up Thursday to the smell of fumes in my apartment. The door faces the outside. Contractors apparently were painting the door, and the fumes must have seeped inside. So immediately I panicked. I opened the windows and the smell began to dissipate, so I went back to bed for a few hours. I couldn't "smell" the fumes so much once I'd gone to bed -- at least they'd gone away a bit.
Opening the windows was exactly the right thing to do.
> Anyhow, I got up, showered, but as I left for work I plunged immediately into freaked-out mode.
Obsession, right?
> Then at work I had an inability to concentratem feeling yucky with a headache.
From being all wound up?
> I'm not sure if any of this was related to the fumes, but now I'm very, very worried that I got permanent mental impairment -- I am still feeling gross a few days later, and still freaking out.
I really do not think that you were damaged by the fumes. I would correlate the feeling gross with the freaking out.
> The apartment no longer smells of fumes,
Then they are all gone.
> but the smell was so horrid Thursday that I pictured my brain simply melting away.
Perhaps that was not a realistic picture?
> So now I sit here and can't concentrate at ALL. Looking up toxic chemicals on the Internet and so forth.
That's my field of expertise.
> Anyhow, I called the contractors and had them fax me the label of the paint they were using. I don't know what else they used -- probably a paint thinner, etc. I'm positive I have brain damage. :-( :-(I think you have anxiety as your biggest hurdle.
The thinner has to be the same (or nearly identical) as what was in the paint itself, so we've got that covered.
> The paint was oil-based as well, those idiots. If they'd only used latex I wouldn't be so scared.
>
> The toxic ingredients were:
>
> mineral spirits
> soya alkyd polymer
> quartz
> calcium carbonate
> xylene
> ethylbenzene
>
> VOC: 375g/L - 3.13 lb/galThe VOCs are the mineral spirits, the xylene, and the ethylbenzene. When those evaporate out, the soya alkyd polymer binds the pigmented calcium carbonate, producing that nice smooth paint surface. The quartz is there for durability.
The V in VOC is volatile. When they're gone, they're gone. Your exposure on Thursday morning was temporary, removed from the highest exposure (the hallway), and diluted from the open windows. Those painters are exposed to similar every day, for eight hours.
I used to haul tankers of paint materials. Boiling hot alkyd resins, with solvents already in them. I spent a lot of time in paint factories. I physically handled the equipment, cleaned metal equipment (with more solvents). I don't think I damaged my brain. The treatment for fumes is fresh air.
Your liver looks after this stuff, and does a fine job of it. The treatment for acute exposure to these solvents is fresh air, and you got that. What you inhaled as vapour is just as easily exhaled again. It is just as volatile in leaving your blood as it is to get there.
> The paint was "Controls Rust" interior/exterior alkyd gloss enamel. Must be tinted before using.
>
> 590 fl oz, ~5 gallons
>
> I didn't have red eyes (maybe a little) or difficult breathing, but I went to the doctor had had an oxygen level of 97/100, which is a bit low...Actually, sats of 97 is exactly normal.
> Anyhow -- was permanent damage done?
No. And I'm not just saying that. It was a minor exposure to minor toxicants.
> Even assuming the worst case, indoor painting with lots of fumes and no ventilation, nausea from breathing the fumes, a "drunken" feeling, etc., would there be permanent brain damage in that case?
Almost certainly not. I can't guarantee it, but I consider it to be highly unlikely.
> I can't concentrate so I'm assuming this is related to damage to my frontal cortex.I think that is an effect of adrenal hormones due to perceived stress. You're tired from the extra vigilance.
> Does the fetid smell indicate worse brain damage ...
>
> HELP!!!
>
> aNo. If you look at this thread, you'll see gromit had massive chronic exposure. I'm not saying it did nothing adverse, but....he sounds okay to me, cognitively.
I had years of daily exposure in the trucking, and I worked in laboratories for years, with all sorts of solvents, every day. I'm not saying it's a recommended way to spend your day, exposed to fumes, but it's not very toxic at all. It's annoying more than it is toxic.
Lar
Posted by AMD on October 31, 2004, at 18:56:30
In reply to Re: HELP!!! :( :( Freaking out about paint fumes » AMD, posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 18:33:33
Thanks Larry.
Actually, the door they were painting faced outside -- literally outside. (I'm at one of those extended stay hotels.) I was just worried about having slept while these fumes came into the apartment -- for who knows how long.
But basically what you're saying is that horrid smell or not, that doesn't correlate to damage in your brain. If I had damage it was minute and probably temporary. The fact that I didn't get a headache until after I'd gotten to the office (probably from stress) may indicate my exposure was minor to begin with. And it would take years of daily exposure to see permanent side effects?
The mind is vicious sometimes -- you freak out over something, the freaking out causes loss of concentration, which in turn makes one feel brain damaged, and you point your finger at something that triggered those feelings. And you can't accept the idea that you might be OK. Two weeks ago it was CO. This week paint fumes. The paint fumes freaked me out because of the duration. Probably an hour before the window was opened, and four or so hours after.
Why do they put a warning label then on the paint "Contains solvents which can cause permanent brain and nervous system damage"? -- *sigh*
Anyhow, I posted this first to the main Psycho-Babble board, if that indicates anything. :-)
Do you know of any medicines that might help dissipate these feelings of dread? I'm already on Celexa, Lamictal, and Geodon for the occasional anxiety. These feelings border on psychosis, I'd say.
a
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 22:13:55
In reply to Re: HELP!!! :( :( Freaking out about paint fumes » Larry Hoover, posted by AMD on October 31, 2004, at 18:56:30
> Thanks Larry.
>
> Actually, the door they were painting faced outside -- literally outside. (I'm at one of those extended stay hotels.) I was just worried about having slept while these fumes came into the apartment -- for who knows how long.
>
> But basically what you're saying is that horrid smell or not, that doesn't correlate to damage in your brain. If I had damage it was minute and probably temporary.Right.
> The fact that I didn't get a headache until after I'd gotten to the office (probably from stress) may indicate my exposure was minor to begin with. And it would take years of daily exposure to see permanent side effects?
That's my opinion, yes.
> The mind is vicious sometimes -- you freak out over something, the freaking out causes loss of concentration, which in turn makes one feel brain damaged, and you point your finger at something that triggered those feelings. And you can't accept the idea that you might be OK.
I'm impressed by your ability to see it this way. I go by my gut, and I really hoped that you'd not be offended by my viewpoint. Thank you for trusting me.
> Two weeks ago it was CO. This week paint fumes. The paint fumes freaked me out because of the duration. Probably an hour before the window was opened, and four or so hours after.
There's a link. Smell.
> Why do they put a warning label then on the paint "Contains solvents which can cause permanent brain and nervous system damage"? -- *sigh*
I think that was written to forestall any possible litigation. Like the warning that was on a blowdryer I bought. "Not for use in shower."
> Anyhow, I posted this first to the main Psycho-Babble board, if that indicates anything. :-)I dunno. Does it?
> Do you know of any medicines that might help dissipate these feelings of dread? I'm already on Celexa, Lamictal, and Geodon for the occasional anxiety. These feelings border on psychosis, I'd say.
> a
>I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. More like a phobic reaction, IMHO. Smell is the one sense that is not processed in the cortex of the brain. Smell is processed in the limbic system, the root of emotion. That's why perfume works its seductive magic, or the smell of baking cookies brings such pleaure. Also, an aroma can invoke vivid memories, because the limbic system connects to the hippocampi, and thus, memories.
I wonder if these sharp odors didn't trigger something of a phobic response, which then led to something like a panic reaction. If so, it might help to discuss this with a doctor, to maybe get a fast-acting benzo. That's a thought. Sometimes cognitive therapy can help with phobic obsessions, too. The goal of that is to catch yourself getting all wound up, and to rationally reassess what's triggering you.
I sense that you were reassured by discussing this with me. You can learn how to reassure yourself.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2004, at 7:52:17
In reply to Re: Q about paint dust, posted by gromit on October 27, 2004, at 1:48:47
> > Non-restorative sleep is a key issue to resolve. I suspect that what you're calling daytime sleepiness is nothing more than sleep failing to do its job of permitting you to wake fully rested.
>
> That is what my doctor called it, not me. I think he is a quack which is why I'm searching for a new and improved pdoc. I don't know, I sleep like the dead when I finally fall asleep, but actually I do better with very little sleep over the short term, eventually it catches up to me.Okay, it sounds like a different thing altogether.
> I agree a diagnosis is a means to an end and I don't understand why doctors are so hung up on it. I mean I understand the whole scientific method thing, but it seems to me that is important on the research end of things not the business end.
Unfortunately, doctors are trained to select from presenting symptoms (many are irrelevant to diagnosis), contemplate clusters to get diagnosis (running extra tests as needed), then shaping treatment based on diagnosis. Symbolically, thats sx --> dx --> tx.
It's intellectual laziness, IMHO, to not reinvestigate the symptom relief part. The question ought to be, "Did tx relieve sx?". If not, perhaps dx is flawed. Most doctors treat the dx, not the sx.
> > Only if you're weasingGeez, my spelling is getting really bad.....wheezing.....I used to win spelling bees, teachers came to me for spellings, they called me "Webster" on the playground. I'm getting old.
>>, feeling a struggle to breathe. Emphysema, for example, or asthma that doesn't respond to meds.
>
> No, those days are behind me since quiting smoking and breathing toxins 10 hrs a day.Good to know.
> > Yes, not to mention the stuff in the air. You become used to the daily exposure, hardly noticing the smell. Yet, someone comes into the shop for the first time, and it's overwhelming.
>
> This made me laugh out loud, I used to really enjoy the suits walking in and watching them go all rubber chicken. I guess the joke was on me though.I lived with a guy who did bodywork. His work clothes were toxic waste, but he insisted that he "cleaned up after work" and that I was over-reacting. I had to take meals in another part of the house.
> > Also, skin contact permits direct trans-cutaneous exposure. Skin is remarkably porous, especially to organic solvents, as they dissolve into the skin.
>
> Yeah, and I used to help it by spraying thinner on my hands thru a spray gun.Oh geez. There is an excrutiatingly painful and treatment-resistant syndrome that develops following exposure to high-pressure hydraulic fluid, as from a small leak in a line. It goes right through the skin.
> > I suppose I got a fairly decent helping of intelligence, way back when, but for many years, I just about did my utmost to destroy that all. Have you ever seen the anti-drug commercial where they represent a brain as a bunch of coiled wires, and drugs are like wire cutters, breaking connections? Sparks flying, smoke in the air? I was using bolt cutters, and hey, I came out the other side. One example....I purposely overdosed on PCP every day for over a year. Me and the boys, we were playing overdose chicken. First guy to come to, was a wuss.
>
> Well you don't seem short on intelligence, but that was not your finest hour, I'm not a big religious guy but there was a reason you made it past this and other things.Thank you.
I waited to answer this post because of this line. It still gives me the tingles. One of my disabilities, growing up in a dysfunctional environment, is not knowing how to take a compliment. I had to be taught, as an adult, that the most appropriate response is the simplest one. I had learned, "Yes, but....".
> > Thank you. I am a gifted public speaker. I try to write like I speak.
>
> Well I envy you there, I'm more of a private speaker myself although not really too gifted.You write well. That's a piece of the puzzle. Toastmasters might be something you'd enjoy.
> > I don't know where your "geek threshold" is, but a guy by the name of Pall has developed a unifying theory for chronic fatigue, PTSD, and multiple chemical sensitivity (your solvent exposure may have been the triggering stimulus). Here's a link to a full-text article. The intervention is antioxidant supplementation, and increased intake of the substances which are damaged by oxidative stress. More, anon.
> > http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content-nw/full/16/11/1407
> >
> > There are hotlinks in the references. Make sure you click on reference #28.
>
> Well my geek factor has been reduced considerably as of late, but I did manage to read and mostly understand #28. Arghh, I have been taking arginine for the last month for the purpose of increasing NO. I also take lecithin to try to increase my choline which I though was a good thing, but then I always seem to pick the slowest line at the supermarket too.Do you want to talk about some specifics, then? If you're taking arginine, can I presume that you might have ED? Having a problem with one aspect of a pathway often perturbs other aspects of it. The peroxynitrite feedback loop is going to mess with anything that involves NO synthase.
> Thanks
> RickYou're welcome.
Lar
Posted by gromit on November 4, 2004, at 19:00:31
In reply to Re: Q about paint dust » gromit, posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2004, at 7:52:17
Doh, lost the first responce, here goes again...
> It's intellectual laziness, IMHO, to not reinvestigate the symptom relief part. The question ought to be, "Did tx relieve sx?". If not, perhaps dx is flawed. Most doctors treat the dx, not the sx.
That has been the case with my pdoc.
> Geez, my spelling is getting really bad.....wheezing.....I used to win spelling bees, teachers came to me for spellings, they called me "Webster" on the playground. I'm getting old.I am forced to use spell check too and I used to be good at spelling.
> I lived with a guy who did bodywork. His work clothes were toxic waste, but he insisted that he "cleaned up after work" and that I was over-reacting. I had to take meals in another part of the house.LOL, if you know one bodyman you know them all.
> I waited to answer this post because of this line. It still gives me the tingles. One of my disabilities, growing up in a dysfunctional environment, is not knowing how to take a compliment. I had to be taught, as an adult, that the most appropriate response is the simplest one. I had learned, "Yes, but....".I once had that problem, not any more. I cheerfully accept any and all compliments. Whatever nice things are said about you around here are well deserved.
> You write well. That's a piece of the puzzle. Toastmasters might be something you'd enjoy.Oh I doubt it, my social anxiety varies between slightly uncomfortable and feeling like I'm wearing a fluorecent clown suit.
> Do you want to talk about some specifics, then? If you're taking arginine, can I presume that you might have ED? Having a problem with one aspect of a pathway often perturbs other aspects of it. The peroxynitrite feedback loop is going to mess with anything that involves NO synthase.
No, no ED here. I've been doing a little weight training again and read that increasing NO might improve the results. That is the reason for the arginine.
I would love to talk specifics but it might be kind of one-sided since I don't really have a clue about most of this. There was a time when I could absorb new stuff rapidly but those days are gone.How is it going with the seleginine? My pdoc wouldn't give it to me. I'd like to give it a shot, stimulants are what help me the most, even helps with the anxiety strangely.
Thanks
Rick
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