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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by KaraS on July 5, 2004, at 13:31:19
How important is it to take vitamins/supplements with water as opposed to juice or even a smoothie or milkshake in terms of absorption? What about sparkling water?
Posted by Cass on July 5, 2004, at 13:57:25
In reply to water with supplements, posted by KaraS on July 5, 2004, at 13:31:19
I've never even thought about that issue before. It's an interesting question, and I hope someone knows the answer. I believe that food digests best if you don't consume fluids at the same time, but obviously you have to swallow a pill with some kind of fluid unless it's chewable.
I'm not against supplements, but I avoid them because I think that ideally a proper diet can supply all the nutrients one needs, and the vitamins in food are much more absorbable than in pills.
Posted by KaraS on July 5, 2004, at 15:23:45
In reply to Re: water with supplements » KaraS, posted by Cass on July 5, 2004, at 13:57:25
>
> I've never even thought about that issue before. It's an interesting question, and I hope someone knows the answer. I believe that food digests best if you don't consume fluids at the same time, but obviously you have to swallow a pill with some kind of fluid unless it's chewable.
> I'm not against supplements, but I avoid them because I think that ideally a proper diet can supply all the nutrients one needs, and the vitamins in food are much more absorbable than in pills.I feel the opposite way. From what I've read, the foods we eat today have far less nutrients in them than they used to (because of insufficient crop rotation). I think it's very important to eat a healthy diet but I think it's also important to take vitamins and other supplements.
Posted by Racer on July 6, 2004, at 1:35:20
In reply to Re: water with supplements, posted by KaraS on July 5, 2004, at 15:23:45
I'm in the middle between you two: I take a multivitamin, and glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM for my joints (after reading the veterinary research on them -- sometimes the vet info is better than the people info, you know), but otherwise try to make sure I'm getting the rest of what I need through food. (Better living through chemistry/better eating through FOOD!)
Years back, my doctor said to take vitamins with either a light meal or with juice, because they were absorbed better when the stomach was working on digesting something. So, with either juice or water when you're taking them with food, or with juice (or a smoothie) if you're taking them alone.
Sparkling water is just carbonated water. Doesn't do anything more than plain water does, except tickle your nose and maybe make you gassy. Most of what I've read on the subject recommends against it for hydration, if that makes a difference.
Hope that helps.
Posted by KaraS on July 6, 2004, at 2:50:56
In reply to Re: water with supplements, posted by Racer on July 6, 2004, at 1:35:20
Thanks for the info. Now I won't feel guilty taking my meds and supplements with juice. Too bad about the sparkling water because I prefer it and hardly ever drink plain water.
Glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM is a good idea. I only take MSM now but when my budget allows, I'm going to add in the other two. Hopefully I'll still be ambulatory by then!
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 6, 2004, at 9:14:08
In reply to Re: water with supplements » KaraS, posted by Cass on July 5, 2004, at 13:57:25
>
> I've never even thought about that issue before. It's an interesting question, and I hope someone knows the answer. I believe that food digests best if you don't consume fluids at the same time, but obviously you have to swallow a pill with some kind of fluid unless it's chewable.Actually, reasonable amounts of fluid intake during a meal have no effect whatsoever on digestion. Stomach acid is far too concentrated to be affected by, for example, two glasses of water taken with the food. This has been confirmed by placing pH meters in the stomachs of volunteers, and monitoring changes throughout digestion.
> I'm not against supplements, but I avoid them because I think that ideally a proper diet can supply all the nutrients one needs, and the vitamins in food are much more absorbable than in pills.
I really don't want to be a crusher of someone else's beliefs, but it is a modern myth that diet alone can provide adequate nutrient intake, let alone the amount the body actually needs.
After studying the USDA nutrient database, and relevant literature such as the NHANES (National Health and Examination Survey) focus on nutrient availability and intake, I realized that we are being lied to. A more detailed examination of the medical literature confirmed my suspicions. It is impossible to meet the RDA of all nutrients for which RDAs have been established from diet alone. (And what of the nutrients which we know less about, for which RDAs have not yet been established?)
I posted a challenge on sci.med.nutrition, open to anyone, to propose a diet (even for a single day) which meets RDAs. It cannot be done. Even when fortified foods are considered. It cannot be done....without grossly exceeding calorie limits, which was part of the challenge. (One challenger proposed a diet that included something like eleven kilograms of head lettuce per day (to meet folate levels), so I added the concept of practical, as well). No takers. The challenger mentioned above had entered the USDA database into a spreadsheet, and was selecting the richest known sources of 18 nutrients. Even though there are RDAs established for nutrients not yet in the USDA database, I let that pass. It can't be done, without exceeding healthy calorie thresholds, by at least 1,000 calories a day.
That quite sidesteps the concept of RDA itself. It is set at the intake level where one person in every forty "normal healthy" individuals exhibits "overt deficiency symptoms". Nota bene, that does not take into allowance what is meant by normal and healthy, nor did is it make allowance for increased demands in those who are ill. Nor does it eliminate deficiency symptoms. It merely reduces them to a statistically small proportion of the population.
I'm sorry, I have come to the sad conclusion that the concepts that have been brainwashed into us, that the Food Pyramid is a good guide, and that diet alone can meet nutritional needs, are patently false. Moreover, the RDA nutrient intake guidelines are literally intended to indicate a statistical reduction in deficiency symptoms. What about a concept like *optimal* intake? Surely, that is a higher level of intake than one that still permits healthy individuals to exhibit deficiency symptoms.
Just consider this one nutrient, zinc. Zinc is supposed to be easy to get from one's diet. And yet, look at how few people get enough. And they even redefined "enough". The table is in terms of *adequate intake*, which is only 77% of the already insufficient RDA (see footnote 1).
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/5/1367S/T4
I fear the emperor has no clothes.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 6, 2004, at 9:17:30
In reply to water with supplements, posted by KaraS on July 5, 2004, at 13:31:19
> How important is it to take vitamins/supplements with water as opposed to juice or even a smoothie or milkshake in terms of absorption? What about sparkling water?
In general terms, vitamin and mineral supplements should be taken with food, the bigger the meal the better. Your body does not anticipate being exposed to nutrients in the absence of food intake, so it does not adequately absorb those nutrients if taken on an empty stomach.
If you're using pure amino acid supplements, they are taken on an empty stomach, but that is to employ them more like a drug than like a food. Your intention, in these cases, is to trick the body by creating atypical blood concentrations.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 6, 2004, at 9:21:46
In reply to Re: water with supplements, posted by Racer on July 6, 2004, at 1:35:20
> Years back, my doctor said to take vitamins with either a light meal or with juice, because they were absorbed better when the stomach was working on digesting something. So, with either juice or water when you're taking them with food, or with juice (or a smoothie) if you're taking them alone.
If I was trying to maximize nutrient uptake from vitamin and mineral supps, I'd take them fifteen or twenty minutes before my biggest meal of the day, with an appetizer, i.e. something that stimulates the stomach, whether liquid or solid.
Lar
Posted by Cass on July 7, 2004, at 17:34:17
In reply to Re: water with supplements » Cass, posted by Larry Hoover on July 6, 2004, at 9:14:08
I agree that the standard american diet (SAD) probably cannot come near to filling all a person's nutritional needs, and I am not an advocate of the "food triangle," but I do suspect that a diet of mostly fresh, organic fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds and sprouts supplemented by "super foods" such as wheatgrass juice, chorella, E3 Live algae or the like can probably keep a person pretty healthy.Where is the sci.med nutrition site you mentioned? I did a web search and didn't find it.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 7, 2004, at 17:50:17
In reply to Re: water with supplements » Larry Hoover, posted by Cass on July 7, 2004, at 17:34:17
>
> I agree that the standard american diet (SAD) probably cannot come near to filling all a person's nutritional needs, and I am not an advocate of the "food triangle," but I do suspect that a diet of mostly fresh, organic fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds and sprouts supplemented by "super foods" such as wheatgrass juice, chorella, E3 Live algae or the like can probably keep a person pretty healthy.For a lot of people, I have no doubt. An individual feeling well is not something about which I would ever quibble. For someone unwell, though, it (diet/nutrition) ought to be a matter of some scrutiny, rather than opting for symptomatic treatments with drugs and so on.
> Where is the sci.med nutrition site you mentioned? I did a web search and didn't find it.
sci.med.nutrition is a Usenet group
Google> groups> advanced group search would be the best way to target a particular thread.
Lar
Posted by Cass on July 7, 2004, at 18:22:38
In reply to Re: water with supplements » Cass, posted by Larry Hoover on July 7, 2004, at 17:50:17
Actually, I have some pretty serious medical problems that have improved significantly with the changes I've made in my diet. I have fewer symptoms and less severe symptoms, although I am not totally cured. Some of my other less serious medical problems have vanished, and that's great because they could have led to much more serious illnesses.
Thanks for telling me how to get to sci.med.nutrition.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 10, 2004, at 8:31:43
In reply to Re: water with supplements » Larry Hoover, posted by Cass on July 7, 2004, at 18:22:38
> Actually, I have some pretty serious medical problems that have improved significantly with the changes I've made in my diet. I have fewer symptoms and less severe symptoms, although I am not totally cured. Some of my other less serious medical problems have vanished, and that's great because they could have led to much more serious illnesses.
That's wonderful. Please understand that I was not intending to be critical of you, through my comments. I think we've all been sold a bill of goods, though.
Taking a good multi-vitamin/mineral supp is so cheap, it just makes good sense to me, no matter how high the quality of the food intake.
> Thanks for telling me how to get to sci.med.nutrition.
That's one route in. Your ISP should have a news-server, and setting up news accounts in e.g. Outlook Express isn't too tough. Google is an archive service (though you *can* post from there). Using a newsreader program gives you much better, and current, access, and easier posting. Just remember to mangle your email address. Spammers and other low-life harvest email addies from Usenet.
Lar
Posted by Cass on July 10, 2004, at 21:40:54
In reply to Re: water with supplements, posted by Larry Hoover on July 10, 2004, at 8:31:43
Hi Larry,
I didn't think you were trying to criticize me.
There's nothing wrong with exchanging opinions and information with an attitude of mutual support, and I can tell you have a constructive attitude :)
Thanks for the tip about news servers too!
This is the end of the thread.
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