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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TomV on October 6, 2004, at 14:35:57
I lost my father, suddenly, right in front of my eyes, when I was 7 years old. He died of a sudden heart attack. I was extremely stoic, holding everything back, never cried once, didn't attend the funeral. So what's hard to believe?
I developed depersonalization disorder at age 11. I had moderate bouts of depression throughout my life. I also developed several anxiety disorders during the course of my life. What's hard to believe is that I didn't get help for any of this until I was 30 years old. Through in-sighted therapy I had a crashing breakthrough, followed by a crushing grief and severe depression after discovering I never grieved for dear old dad.
What else has occurred during this period? My DD trickled away, which has been replaced by severe PTSD. Strong flashbacks to my childhood. I also dream constantly, all about my childhood. I'm quite certain I have more dreams than the most shellshocked war veteran. And none of it is related to drugs, because I dream a ton on meds and off them. I'm still very depressed and have no feeling at all most of the time (a numb feeling)
What might surprise you is that I had a wonderful childhood, in spite of all the disorders I developed. I truly believed I would heal on my own some day, but it just doesn't seem to be happening, at least not naturally. It's been 8 years since the breakthrough.
Anyway, has anyone ever had a delayed reaction like my own? I've don't remember anyone else on the boards having the same experience as my own. My doctors and therapists have been of very little help, except at the very beginning of treatment. I'm kind of at a loss to explain things to my family and friends. Can anyone relate?
Tom
Posted by Jai Narayan on October 6, 2004, at 20:37:28
In reply to This story might be hard to believe..., posted by TomV on October 6, 2004, at 14:35:57
EMDR can deal with the flash backs and the PTSD...it did for me. I am a new person since I was liberated from the trauma flash backs. Nothing else ever worked for me.
What you described happened to me as well but I was 39 years old when it all came back to me.
My trauma happened when I was a baby.
Posted by TomV on October 7, 2004, at 11:15:55
In reply to Re: This story might be hard to believe..., posted by Jai Narayan on October 6, 2004, at 20:37:28
> EMDR can deal with the flash backs and the PTSD...it did for me. I am a new person since I was liberated from the trauma flash backs. Nothing else ever worked for me.
> What you described happened to me as well but I was 39 years old when it all came back to me.
> My trauma happened when I was a baby.
>
>What exactly is EMDR? My Pdoc tried something he called EMDR by using a piece of mechanical equipment with flashing lights and sounds. Didn't really help.
Is this the same thing you used with success?
Tom
Posted by carriejane on October 7, 2004, at 12:11:33
In reply to Re: This story might be hard to believe... » Jai Narayan, posted by TomV on October 7, 2004, at 11:15:55
Hi, i just noticed your post after entering mine. I dont think i had flash backs , i would scare the other kids by saying my mum was in the room, maybe after dreaming about her. I always hoped it was her visiting me but was too young to remember,
I think my grieving is coming out now bit by bit and it hurts so much, i just have continual tears in my eyes. As you said i never cried, i never cried if i was hit, i would just look defiantly at anyone that harmed me.Was never helped with this nope!
Crap isnt it when u have to grow up alone inside?
Carrie
Posted by Jai Narayan on October 7, 2004, at 15:06:03
In reply to Re: This story might be hard to believe... » Jai Narayan, posted by TomV on October 7, 2004, at 11:15:55
My therapist uses EMDR: tones, that I put on earphones to hear.
Plus there are right and left sensual vibrating tiny plastic things I hold in my hands. I use them both because it's a deeper imprint. I love the results. My T is very well trained in EMDR.
You can look up EMDR on the web.
Jai
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 4, 2004, at 6:43:32
In reply to Re: This story might be hard to believe..., posted by Jai Narayan on October 7, 2004, at 15:06:03
We had training in EMDR in my study (I'm a clinical psychologist), but since it isn't in my field of work I can't really say I'm anywhere near an expert in it... what I DO know, is that it is accepted as one of the most effective way of healing PTSD flashbacks. It's a simple, but very good principle.
I though I'd might try explaining it a bit :-) Feel free to correct me, I have had a certain amount of training in it, but any therapy requires a lot of practizing before you can say that you really "know" it. I will explain it the way I understood it from my studies, there might be many of you in here knowing a lot more about it than me, please feel free to correct me.
When you have flashbacks as a part of your PTSD (post traumatic stress disorer, a late reaction to a trauma), those flashbacks is almost like being back at the moment when the trauma happened. Your life gets an ever circle of entering the same hell over and over again. It's like a dream where you fall off the mountain, and instead of waking up at the moment you fall, you just fall over and over again.
EMDR is trying to break this circle by changing your consciousness when these flashbacks are entering you, it teaches you to take control over your memories, to let them be what they are... memories! It is based on the fact that these memories are firing off the same neurons in your head that was active when you first experienced the trauma. Investigations using brainscanning has found out that when someone diagnosed as PTSD has flashbacks, these flashbacks trigger the same areas in the brain that would be triggered in the real event, also in the visual field! This is a kind of bad functioning neurological "circle", and the crucial is to break that circle, which in fact is a very easy principle. So easy that manye people don't believe in it, or are fooled by the easyness in it. No matter how easy, it still needs a skilled trainer for someone with PTSD. Flashbacks can sometimes happen in therapy with people who are not necessarily PTSD, and then some simple tricks according to the neurological principle might help. Since these are the tricks that I know most about (my field is forensic psychology and prisoners, if I were working more with PTSD I would learn more about it-interesting subject).
I'll repaet the principle: break the bad "neurological circle" (it's not called that, but I call it that to make it more understandable, thereby the "), and you can help the patient get rid of the flashbacks. One way to do it is make the person give explain what he sees in the flashbacks, and during his telling you are making him focus on something that is moving, for example two of your fingers in front of his eyes. The present movement will break the circle from something he doesn't really see, and thereby bring him back to "here and now". Another technique is to break off the persons story on a regular basis during the story by saying something like this: "remember, this is a while ago. Today, you sit in my office, and in my chair. Please put your hands on the chair and feel that you are sitting here. Look around you, notice that you are not at the place where all these awful things happened to you. Now continue on your story"
Now please note, this is nothing you should do without really knowing a lot about PTSD and how to treat it. I only use it when it is emergent, since I am not experienced in this field. It sounds simple, but you still have to be able to really break that circle if you mak ethe person talk about his trauma. A person with PTSD will often get worse when talking about the trauma unless that circle is broken, which is contrary to most other problems, so it is important that only trained and experienced professionals do things like this... unless it is an emergency where it can be excused.
I hope that clarifyed it a tiny bit, and as I said, feel free to correct me.
Posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 4, 2004, at 6:49:54
In reply to EMDR, posted by Crazy_Charlie on November 4, 2004, at 6:43:32
You can also read about the subject on this page:
http://www.emdr.com/
Posted by Elroy on February 11, 2005, at 15:55:48
In reply to Re: This story might be hard to believe..., posted by Jai Narayan on October 7, 2004, at 15:06:03
Any major difference between the audio EMDR, visual EMDR and tapping type of EMDR? I hope to start up that type of therapy next month with my regular therapist (I recently found out that she is highly certified in EMDR).
BTW, a "Toby" used to post a lot of very interesting info concerning EMDR on this forum. Does Toby still post on EMDR?
Elroy
> My therapist uses EMDR: tones, that I put on earphones to hear.
> Plus there are right and left sensual vibrating tiny plastic things I hold in my hands. I use them both because it's a deeper imprint. I love the results. My T is very well trained in EMDR.
> You can look up EMDR on the web.
> Jai
Posted by Elroy on June 3, 2005, at 18:09:48
In reply to This story might be hard to believe..., posted by TomV on October 6, 2004, at 14:35:57
Tom,
Did you ever get a chance to look into the specifics of the EMDR treatment and if there are any trained EMDR therapists in your area?
I have have been working with the EMDR therapy for only a few weeks and have found it quite amazing. I have some biological problems also (i.e., very highly elevated cortisol problems) that seem to be holding back EMDR from being - at this early stage - a complete "breakthrough": treatment for me, but I would still rate its progress as amazing!
Would definitely look into it.....
Elroy
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> I lost my father, suddenly, right in front of my eyes, when I was 7 years old. He died of a sudden heart attack. I was extremely stoic, holding everything back, never cried once, didn't attend the funeral. So what's hard to believe?
>
> I developed depersonalization disorder at age 11. I had moderate bouts of depression throughout my life. I also developed several anxiety disorders during the course of my life. What's hard to believe is that I didn't get help for any of this until I was 30 years old. Through in-sighted therapy I had a crashing breakthrough, followed by a crushing grief and severe depression after discovering I never grieved for dear old dad.
>
> What else has occurred during this period? My DD trickled away, which has been replaced by severe PTSD. Strong flashbacks to my childhood. I also dream constantly, all about my childhood. I'm quite certain I have more dreams than the most shellshocked war veteran. And none of it is related to drugs, because I dream a ton on meds and off them. I'm still very depressed and have no feeling at all most of the time (a numb feeling)
>
> What might surprise you is that I had a wonderful childhood, in spite of all the disorders I developed. I truly believed I would heal on my own some day, but it just doesn't seem to be happening, at least not naturally. It's been 8 years since the breakthrough.
>
> Anyway, has anyone ever had a delayed reaction like my own? I've don't remember anyone else on the boards having the same experience as my own. My doctors and therapists have been of very little help, except at the very beginning of treatment. I'm kind of at a loss to explain things to my family and friends. Can anyone relate?
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by happyflower on July 23, 2005, at 20:56:54
In reply to Re: This story might be hard to believe... » TomV, posted by Elroy on June 3, 2005, at 18:09:48
EMDR changed my life. I have only done it once so far, but the results are unbelieveable. My T plans on doing more of this, even though it is hard, I am looking forward to freeing myself of my bad memories of the past. You search for a qualified EMDR specialist by searching EMDR. com. My T is even listed there.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 15, 2005, at 23:57:47
In reply to EMDR, posted by happyflower on July 23, 2005, at 20:56:54
> EMDR changed my life. I have only done it once so far, but the results are unbelieveable. My T plans on doing more of this, even though it is hard, I am looking forward to freeing myself of my bad memories of the past. You search for a qualified EMDR specialist by searching EMDR. com. My T is even listed there.
I wish I had a video of my EMDR sessions. I think I could learn even more from them. Very effective therapy.
Lar
Posted by tomv on January 29, 2006, at 21:20:17
In reply to Re: This story might be hard to believe... » TomV, posted by Elroy on June 3, 2005, at 18:09:48
> Tom,
>
> Did you ever get a chance to look into the specifics of the EMDR treatment and if there are any trained EMDR therapists in your area?
>
> I have have been working with the EMDR therapy for only a few weeks and have found it quite amazing. I have some biological problems also (i.e., very highly elevated cortisol problems) that seem to be holding back EMDR from being - at this early stage - a complete "breakthrough": treatment for me, but I would still rate its progress as amazing!
>
> Would definitely look into it.....
>
> Elroy
> X
> X
> X
> X
>
>
Elroy,No, I've never attempted to find a therapist who specializes in EMDR. I'm seeing a therapist, but we're not practicing anything like this. I might ask him about this at our next session.
I noticed you mentioned something about elevated cortisol levels. How did you find this out? Are you treating this specifically?
Tom
Posted by Elroy on January 30, 2006, at 11:44:43
In reply to Re: This story might be hard to believe... » Elroy, posted by tomv on January 29, 2006, at 21:20:17
> No, I've never attempted to find a therapist who specializes in EMDR. I'm seeing a therapist, but we're not practicing anything like this. I might ask him about this at our next session.
>
> I noticed you mentioned something about elevated cortisol levels. How did you find this out? Are you treating this specifically?
>
> Tom
>Tom,
The only really accurate method of measuring your daily cortisol levels is to perform a 24-hr UFC (Urinary Free Cortisol) test. You basically collect your urine over a 24-hr time period in a specially provided plastic jug (and you have to keep it refrigerated between collections).
Ideally your doctor would have you do two of those over the course of a week. That is done because cortisol secretion is done on a cyclical basis - both daily and during the course of a day - and you can have a non normal day here and there. If your levels come back elevated on either test, then you want to do preliminary testing to see if you might have Cushing's Disease (versus hypercortisolism that is based on a psychological disorder - which is technically known as Pseudo Cushing's). That should be done by repeating the two 24-hr UFC tests while doing a "Late Night Salivary Cortisol Test" on each of the two nights that you do 24-hr UFCs. You simply collect saliva in provided test tubes and mail them in. These salivary tests are not designed to determine total cortisol levels, but simply to give a picture of what your cortisol levels are between 11 PM and Midnight. If you have Cushing's, your cortisol levels will be elevated on those tests.
If you have very mildly elevated levels of cortisol or "high normal levels", then there's a number of OTC supplements that work at varying degrees to reduce cortisol. The better OTC supps in that regard include Phosphatidylserine, Holy Basil Extract, Magnolia Bark Extract (main ingredient in Relora), Epimedium Extract, Rhodiola Rosea Extract, and Ashwagandha Extract. Also 2 grams of glutamine daily combined with 1/2 gram of NAC (amino acids).
Unfortunately if you have highly elevated cortisol levels or elevated levels that are due to a dysfunctional HPA Axis, then the OTC supplements are simply not going to be very effective at reducing cortisol levels - and levels will boucne right back up when you cease supplementing.
For a three month time period I supplemented with the above supplements as well as GH3, Melatonin, Gingko Biloba, and Beta-sitosterol (all of which have lesser anti cortisol effects). Prior to this I had tested cortisol levels of 214. At the end of this cycle I tested at 108 (reference range of 20 - 100). I stayed with this supplementation (quite expensive by the way) for 2 1/2 more months and then stopped it two weeks before next round of testing. My cortisol level was back up to 222.
I also went on a five month cycle of Remeron this last summer. My first test (about six weeks into the cycle) was a 97 (range 20 - 100). The next test (at end of cycle) was a 52 - but range had changed due to enw Lab with range now 4 - 60. So Remeron did bring me down into high normal ranges... but again the levels went right back up as soon as Remeron was stopped (indicating that HPA Axis is still dysfunctional / hyperactive). With Remeron I had extreme sedation (sleeping 16 - 18 hours at 15 - 30 mg, 14 - 16 hours at 45 mg and 12 - 14 hours at 60 mg). In addition, while on Remeron I put on 25 lbs of weight in those five months and cholesterol jumped up 60 points.
Last month I spent two weeks at NIH Hospital in Bethesda, Md, having all kinds of advanced testing done. There bottom line was that I didn't have any form of Cushing's (other than apparent Pseudo Cushing's), that the hypercortisolism - and various physical symptoms that I have with it - seems to be purely the result of the psychological disorder, and that control / correction of the psychological disorder "should" eventually lead to a full-scale reduction in the elevated cortisol. Aside from that, they had NO idea as to what was causing my hypercortisolism "for sure" nor what could be done to address it.
Interstingly, the "team of doctors" at NIH included two psychiatrist. One of them was highly informed about EMDR and recommended continuing that line of treatment. Both suggested (at different times) that perhaps I was under-medicated for my condition (at the time I was taking 1 mg of Xanax XR twice daily, plus Ambien as a sleep aid... they felt this to be a very low dose for anxiety severe enough to cause a hypercortisolism condition).
NOTE: Many doctors will test for cortisol levels by doing a blood test. Do NOT accept a blood test as an accurate picture of what your cortisol levels look like. A blood test simply takes a momentary "snapshot" of what your cotrisol levels in the blood are right at that moment, and since cortisol secretion cycles high and low throughout the day - and the cycle is frequently off kilter with those who have hypercortisolism - so the blood test (or a salivary test) for purposes of determining total daily levels.
Also.... do NOT simply assume that cortisol levels are either high or low. Some forms of depression and at least one form of anxiety (PTSD) are characterized by LOW cortisol levels, so taking anti cortisol supplements or meds would not be advisible (in fact excessively low cortisol levels can led to adrenal shock and even death).
As to the EMDR, would continue to strongly suggest that you explore that option as a talk therapy option. I believe that ultimate control and / or curing of psychological disorders generally requires a combination of both medications (to achieve balances that have gone out of kilter, allow one to function somewhat normally, etc., etc.) while the talk therapy helps one sort through any causation traumas.
The main EMDR site is located at:
The link for finding a certified therapist in your area is at:
http://www.emdr.com/clinic.htm#search
Simply talking to a general therapist who has no experience with EMDR would probably not be very productive.
Elroy
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Posted by Elroy on January 30, 2006, at 11:53:59
In reply to EMDR, posted by happyflower on July 23, 2005, at 20:56:54
> EMDR changed my life. I have only done it once so far, but the results are unbelieveable. My T plans on doing more of this, even though it is hard, I am looking forward to freeing myself of my bad memories of the past. You search for a qualified EMDR specialist by searching EMDR. com. My T is even listed there.
Hello.Just wondered if you have continued with your EMDR therapy and if you have continued to have successes with those sessions.
I have had some successes with my EMDR sessions and also so frsutrations. The frustrations haven't been due to the sessions themselves, but simply at how fragmented the process has been.
We got started on a productive series of sessions (about three) and then therapist had to take two weeks off to go to an advanced certification course. Then we had one session then Thanksgiving hit and she took an extra week off around then for out of state company. Then we had one session - but never did get to employ EMDR - and then I was off to NIH hospital. Then there was one session - but again no EMDR - before the Christmas / New Year's holidays (with more time taken off). We have now had one session since first of the year and no EMDR again as we had to get caught up with all of the particulars from NIH visit.
Hopefully we can get the actual EMDR therapy back on a regular course starting the next visit (next week). As you know, the sessions themselves can be quite traumatic, but I honestly believe that overall they are doing as much (if not more) than the meds in providing a long-term solution.
Elroy
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