![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by Tovah on December 13, 2003, at 17:50:54
In reply to I do this every Christmas....., posted by judy1 on December 13, 2003, at 11:21:58
...but I would re-examine the church you were born into before making a decision against it. The Catholic church has matured over the last few years, and become much more friendly and inclusive. You might be pleasantly surprised.
A warning: don't go to a "nondenominational" church thinking that it is truly "nondenominational." The nondenominational church is made up of a mixutre of protestant denominations, but is generally conservative and fundamantalistic. If you are more comfortable with that, that is great, but the name itself is somewhat of a misnomer.
Good luck to you! (PS you might also want to try the link I put in "try this" on the post above)
Posted by judy1 on December 14, 2003, at 23:54:31
In reply to This is my POV only.... , posted by Tovah on December 13, 2003, at 17:50:54
thank you so much- I'll probably speak to the local priest. btw, I appreciate the link you had posted, and was really surprised to see how closely I scored to reform Judiasm. lots to think about. take care, judy
Posted by Dog on December 15, 2003, at 10:35:11
In reply to I do this every Christmas....., posted by judy1 on December 13, 2003, at 11:21:58
Judy, i used to be licensed local pastor for the United Methodist Church and went to a pretty good seminary which was "Evangelical Free" denomination but had 80% of its students from other denominations or non-denominations. They were conservative in theology and the United Methodists have a more liberal kind of theology, esp. with their leaders, so i think i have probably been exposed to more different kinds of theological backgrounds than most: both liberal and conservation.
Roman Catholics are a "High Church" sort of faith, that is they are really into the ceremonial, priestly, ritualistic kind of thing... nothing against them: they're cool, but you might want to try a more relational type church, a "Low Church" kind of thing...there's this guy in the Chicago area named Bill Hybels who is a former Presbyterian...He did this tremendous study with a poll to try and determine why people didn't go to church or what they did or didn't like about it... with those results, he designed "Willow Creek Community Church", which is Orthodox in its beliefs, but is eclectic and very relational in its design... its all a part of the evangelical movement... most excellent and highly recommended and its "clones" can be found almost everywhere now in the US... look in your yellow pages for churches under "Community Churches" and give them a call...
i am still United Methodist... they are a "mixed bag" in that there are some high and some low church ideas, but most are not moving as fast as the Hybels constructs...Hybels type churches are much more open to ministering to the whole family, which is what it sounds like you might need.
sounds like you might have had some sad unfortunate things happen in your family... "Community" churches utilize a lot of support groups also... i grew up in an alcoholic family and was profoundly affected by it... Community Churches encourage Al-Anon, ACOA, AA, NA, SA, OA, and other similar type groups...very open and helpful...if there was one closer to me, i'd be going to it...
Blessings, Dog> Every year at this time I yearn to feel a strong faith. I was raised Catholic, but with so many negatives present in my life as a child, I never got the comfort I needed from the Church. Of course I was never honest about what was happening at home, so it wasn't anyone's fault but my own. I would love to give my children a foundation in faith, I feel it's important and so does my therp and pdoc. It doesn't have to be a particular denomination, just whatever it takes to believe and be comforted. Any suggestions on how to get started? thanks- judy
Posted by judy1 on December 15, 2003, at 10:44:38
In reply to Re: I do this every Christmas..... » judy1, posted by Dog on December 15, 2003, at 10:35:11
I really liked the liberal and family values of your church. I'm not very familiar with different Protestant denominations, so your post was a great help. I'll definitely look up the closest church and speak to the pastor.
thanks again, judy
Posted by Dog on December 15, 2003, at 10:57:32
In reply to thank you » Dog, posted by judy1 on December 15, 2003, at 10:44:38
Judy,
"Community" Churches, aren't for the most part liberal. However, they're very loving, open and modern and i think you'll feel very at home there.
i just didn't want to be misunderstood when i was writing about liberal and conservative. i don't really like those terms anyway.
#1 is going to a Bible-based church, i think, but also if you feel ministered to by the pastor, and if you like the people, and feel yourself growing closer to God and both as individuals and a family, you can't go wrong...
there's been recent scholarly studies that show that people who regularly attend church are healthier, happier, and live longer than those who don't...
your therapists et al are right, you should make it a priority..
Dog> I really liked the liberal and family values of your church. I'm not very familiar with different Protestant denominations, so your post was a great help. I'll definitely look up the closest church and speak to the pastor.
> thanks again, judy
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 15, 2003, at 12:05:57
In reply to I do this every Christmas....., posted by judy1 on December 13, 2003, at 11:21:58
Judy, one of the main reasons I embrace Catholocism (I was raised Catholic as well) is its emphasis on the Virgin Mary. Catholocism seems to be the only Christian denomination with such an important female figure. It seems the Protestant denominations don't put as much emphasis on her. I really like the fact that there is a female figurehead. Granted, she is an impossible ideal to live up to (both VIRGIN and MOTHER).
I find her quite comforting.
Posted by Dena on December 15, 2003, at 15:01:43
In reply to Re: I do this every Christmas....., posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 15, 2003, at 12:05:57
Miss Honeychurch -
I like what you said about Mary. I grew up Protestant (various denominations, as well as "nondenominations", being a military brat), & you're right, Mary is downplayed with them. They go overboard to present her as "just a normal sinful human". Sadly, so much of our rich church history was lost with the Reformation.
I'm no longer Protestant (though I treasure much of what I've received from them) - I'm an independent Catholic (not Roman), & also Orthodox (though not formally Eastern Orthodox). I embrace all that the One Church (prior to any splits) held as truth for the first thousand years.
I had to overcome my previously taught biases against Mary (& all things liturgical), in order to see her (& them) for the blessings that they are. I'm still learning about Mary. I'd like to know more about a relationship with her, & the comfort she brings. I especially like how she always points the way to her Son.
When I was having a hard time understanding the importance of her role, & why she should be venerated (not worshipped - venerated - they're different), someone shared an illustration with me that really helped.
In the Old Testament, we read of the Ark of the Covenant, which held symbols of God inside. It was so highly revered that people were killed for touching it wrongly. It's been lost for a long time now.
What if it were re-discovered? What if it went "on tour" - people of all faiths would flock to view it, & those who understood it's meaning would revere it with holy awe, because of the preciousness of the symbols of God within it.
Mary was another type of "ark", of the New Covenant. While she was pregnant with Jesus, she was carrying within her, not the symbols of God, but God Himself! How can we rightly NOT revere her?
I had to repent of my arrogance of dismissing her as just an ordinary woman. I've had my eyes opened to the role she plays in salvation. I had to learn how the early church, who knew her personally, revered her.
I no longer want to miss out on anything that God has for me in His Church - whether or not my mind can comprehend it.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 15, 2003, at 15:55:05
In reply to I do this every Christmas....., posted by judy1 on December 13, 2003, at 11:21:58
Dena,
Orthodoxy intrigues me as well, but I've always been a little hesitant about its labels (as in Russian, Greek). I guess I just wonder how much of a cultural fit it would be for me. Is there any such thing as a plain Catholic Orthodox church with no regional label on it? I feel Catholocism has become very "protestantized", mainly due to Vatican II. I was born after Vatican II, but grew up with Latin Mass and a lot of the old rituals which are no longer allowed. I miss it.
Posted by Dog on December 15, 2003, at 15:55:51
In reply to Re: I do this every Christmas..... » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Dena on December 15, 2003, at 15:01:43
i am a protestant, that is i look at Martin Luther's writings and the Reformation as a very meaningful, significant event(s) in Church History and i mean the whole Universal Church of Jesus Christ, not just a particular denomination, The Universal Church, which is "Catholic" but not Roman Catholic.. although there are members of the Roman Catholic Church who do belong to the Universal Catholic Church, there are some, i am sure, that do not...
having your name on some piece of paper means nothing unless there is committment and faith..i consider myself to belong to the Universal Catholic Church (like what the Apostles Creed says) because i have, to Jesus Christ, and to others, admitted i am a sinner, asked to receive Christ into my life, repented of my sins, and am growing every day in His Word, Love, and Spirit... i have been born again as a result of these and i highly recommend it to anyone...
as a Protestant, i resent it that someone would say that as a Protestant i view Mary as "just a normal sinful human", and/or "go overboard" to present her as so, in that the Bible clearly says she has had a very special place in Gods plan and to say that is wrong... however, i do not and will not pray to Mary because she cannot hear me and if i do, i am not honoring Christ because it is He who died for me and is my Lord and not Mary... this whole thing of who Mary is makes it very difficult for Protestants because there are some Roman Catholics who are trying to cause trouble and dissension by always accusing us of not being grateful for what she did...she is most honorable among women and to call her a "normal sinful human" is not of God... i have never ever heard anyone before now say that, that Protestants consider her in that way, and i think it is not of God and i demand that you take it back and apologize immediately! by saying this about protestants, that protestants say this, you are attempting to develop further schisms in the church... this is not of God, but of the devil...
i have studied Theology at the graduate level and am no neophyte when it comes to these things...i have studied the Bible in 4 different languages and preached it in two... i am not bragging...God has given me alot, and i have given nothing to Him in return and would be nothing without Him...I know God in a personal way and speak with Him continually...i have grown up in the Protestant Church (44 years), but have been a Believer for only 24 years, but i have never heard anything like this...I am sure, if you did hear it, that it was very isolated, and maybe only once because i have never ever heard anyone make such a remark!Dog
> Miss Honeychurch -
>
> I like what you said about Mary. I grew up Protestant (various denominations, as well as "nondenominations", being a military brat), & you're right, Mary is downplayed with them. They go overboard to present her as "just a normal sinful human". Sadly, so much of our rich church history was lost with the Reformation.
>
> I'm no longer Protestant (though I treasure much of what I've received from them) - I'm an independent Catholic (not Roman), & also Orthodox (though not formally Eastern Orthodox). I embrace all that the One Church (prior to any splits) held as truth for the first thousand years.
>
> I had to overcome my previously taught biases against Mary (& all things liturgical), in order to see her (& them) for the blessings that they are. I'm still learning about Mary. I'd like to know more about a relationship with her, & the comfort she brings. I especially like how she always points the way to her Son.
>
> When I was having a hard time understanding the importance of her role, & why she should be venerated (not worshipped - venerated - they're different), someone shared an illustration with me that really helped.
>
> In the Old Testament, we read of the Ark of the Covenant, which held symbols of God inside. It was so highly revered that people were killed for touching it wrongly. It's been lost for a long time now.
>
> What if it were re-discovered? What if it went "on tour" - people of all faiths would flock to view it, & those who understood it's meaning would revere it with holy awe, because of the preciousness of the symbols of God within it.
>
> Mary was another type of "ark", of the New Covenant. While she was pregnant with Jesus, she was carrying within her, not the symbols of God, but God Himself! How can we rightly NOT revere her?
>
> I had to repent of my arrogance of dismissing her as just an ordinary woman. I've had my eyes opened to the role she plays in salvation. I had to learn how the early church, who knew her personally, revered her.
>
> I no longer want to miss out on anything that God has for me in His Church - whether or not my mind can comprehend it.
>
> Shalom, Dena
Posted by zenhussy on December 15, 2003, at 16:49:46
In reply to Blasphemy and Accusatory Snide Remarks! » Dena, posted by Dog on December 15, 2003, at 15:55:51
Dog,
I'll post what is at the top of the faith board:
~~~~~
The idea here is support, so please don't pressure others to adopt your beliefs or put them down for having theirs. Sorry, but this may mean not posting some aspects of some beliefs. In particular, agnostic and atheistic views are now considered not to be supportive of religious faith. Since these issues first came up(http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20010718/msgs/1854.html), there's been discussion of possible exceptions (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7871.html) and specific examples(http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7889.html), and these guidelines may still be in a state of some flux. It's a challenge to foster this kind of discussion.
~~~~~
If you choose to say:"...and i think it is not of God and i demand that you take it back and apologize immediately! by saying this about protestants, that protestants say this, you are attempting to develop further schisms in the church... this is not of God, but of the devil..."
then your post is in violation of the guidelines of civility (Please don't...post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down...)as well as not following the ideas set forth at the top of the Faith page by Dr. Bob.
This board asks you have the same respect for others which "may mean not posting some aspects of some beliefs."
zenhussy
Some more civility guidelines from the FAQ: (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil)It's fine to give others feedback as long as its constructive. It tends to be more constructive if you put things in terms of what the other person might do better rather than what they did "wrong". And it tends to be more conducive to harmony to talk about how you feel than what someone else did, for example, to use an I-statement like "I feel put down by what you said" instead of a you-statement like "you're so arrogant". But don't just word the latter as the former, as in "I feel Dr. Bob has gone overboard". :-)
Posted by Tovah on December 15, 2003, at 17:37:34
In reply to Re: I do this every Christmas..... » judy1, posted by Dog on December 15, 2003, at 10:35:11
My cousin attends there and there was just a huge article about it in US News and World Report. I won't say anything pro or con but needed to make one small correction to what you said. ...Willow Creek IS "orthodox" in its beliefs (as in small-o orthodox, mainstream Christian), however it is not "Orthodox" in its beliefs (big-O, as in Eastern Orthodoxy). The two can be quite different and people tend to confuse them. Thank you.
Posted by Tovah on December 15, 2003, at 17:43:36
In reply to Re: I do this every Christmas....., posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 15, 2003, at 12:05:57
Yes, in Orthodox (big-O Orthodox, not little-o) Christianity she is venerated as well; she is known as Theotokos or The Mother of God. There is a heavy emphasis on her role in the redemption of mankind because she said "yes" to bearing Christ. It is true that she is less of a figurehead in Protestantism than in either Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. I like that she plays such a major role in O and in RC.
Posted by Tovah on December 15, 2003, at 17:53:25
In reply to Re: I do this every Christmas (Dena), posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 15, 2003, at 15:55:05
I am a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy (specifically the Syrian jurisdiction, but I am an American Caucasian as is my husband, who is a priest). I am a former Methodost (childhood)/Lutheran (adulthood). I can understand why the ethnic denominations (Greek, Russian, etc.) are a little unsettling. That is, IMHO, the biggest problem with Orthodoxy and why it's not really growing in this country. The good news is that many O. churches, like my husband's, are largely made up of American converts. And the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) developed from the Russians but is wholly American. If you're interested in knowing more, don't let the ethnic divides stop you. Read "The Orthodox Way" by Bishop Kallistos Ware.
Posted by Tovah on December 15, 2003, at 17:59:28
In reply to Blasphemy and Accusatory Snide Remarks! » Dena, posted by Dog on December 15, 2003, at 15:55:51
Whoa! I think feelings ran a little hot here. I am a former Protestant (I was Methodist as a child and Lutheran as an adult). I am a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy (the church that goes way back BEFORE the Reformation). And I must say that I know what Dena is referring to re. Mary because I have read some Protestant writings that essentially put her down. It is one thing to not "worship" her (BTW, she is venerated in our faith, not "worshipped"), but SOME (perhaps not you or people you know, but SOME) Protestants do go a little bit too far in the other direction. Please don't say these attitudes don't exist anywhere in Protestantism; you may not have expereinced it or read it yourself, but Dena and I have. However anything we post has to do with our own experiences and not YOU or YOUR faith per se. Hope that helps.
Posted by judy1 on December 15, 2003, at 18:54:43
In reply to Regarding Orthodoxy :) :) :), posted by Tovah on December 15, 2003, at 17:53:25
you've certainly been on an interesting spiritual journey. my husband was raised in the Russian Orthodox Church, I went to a 3 hour Easter mass with him and despite my background that includes masses in Latin, it was a little too much ritual for me. do you have the same sort of experiences? BTW, Mary was always an important part of my life also.
Posted by Tovah on December 15, 2003, at 20:43:17
In reply to Re: Regarding Orthodoxy :) :) :) » Tovah, posted by judy1 on December 15, 2003, at 18:54:43
I'd be lying if I said I've never been bored during a service. But of course I got bored sometimes in other services too. My husband's church has somewhat shorter services - 1.5 to 2 hours. I've gotten very used to them!
Actually, when I met my husband I was seriously looking at Quakerism! Talk about a wide spectrum! Actually, once you strip away the outer polish, there are some similarities.
Posted by Dena on December 15, 2003, at 21:54:24
In reply to Blasphemy and Accusatory Snide Remarks! » Dena, posted by Dog on December 15, 2003, at 15:55:51
I'm not quite sure where to begin in all of this. I certainly never imagined that on my first day "back" I'd be stirring up a controversy! Causing division, offending others, stirring up such anger -- believe me, this is the very last thing I was trying to do with my post about Mary.
For the record, I was speaking about myself, my experiences, my understanding, my own journey of faith. Nothing was intended against any person, any denomination, any ideaology. But because I apparently have offended, I ask the forgiveness of anyone I have harmed in any way through my words. It was an "unknown" sin, but if I have sinned, then I trust the Lord, as well as the individuals sinned against, will forgive me. That's all I can do. I ask forgiveness, not because it was demanded of me, but because the peace of the Body of Christ is precious to me.
I stand by what I said, as it is what I've experienced -- that many Protestants have spoken, written & taught against Mary. I myself did so for many years, out of my own ignorance of what the early Church, including the very Apostles of Jesus, taught about Mary. She was beloved. She was venerated by those who knew Jesus best. She was recognized to have been set apart by God for the unique task of bearing the Messiah. She was blessed among women. She was born for the very purpose of being the Theotokos - the God-bearer.
I do pray to Mary; to pray is to "speak to". Do I recognize her as diety? No. She's not a fourth member of the Trinity. She's not divine. But she's a member of the Church Triumphant - those who have gone on before & are in the presence of God. She's the mother of the Church, in that she was the mother of the Savior, & she holds a highly exalted place among the Body. So, I talk with her. Just as I could ask any other member of His Body here on earth to pray for me, so I can ask Mary & all of the Saints in heaven, to pray for me. I covet their prayers even more than those of my earthly brothers & sisters because Mary & the saints are in the very presence of God! Their eyes have been opened - they see clearly, while we still see through a dim mirror. Who do you think knows better how to pray for me?
As a Protestant, I was deprived of understanding the communion of Saints - some Protestants embrace the belief, & others do not. I was taught to consider asking the saints to pray as blasphemy. I had to repent of that belief, along with many other anti-catholic, anti-orthodox beliefs.
I share your frustration, Dog, with the many divisions within the Body of Christ. But the truth is, the spirit of division can be found within any denomination of the Church, whether it be Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant. It is a disgrace & a curse that we must all, as Christians, take responsibility for. The enemy sows seeds of division, but it can only take root where pride, ignorance & blindness already exist. The divisions are so deep, so firmly entrenched, that only the power of God can unite His Body together again. It's my fervent prayer to see this in my life time; and if not, then I can only pray to be part of the unity, not part of further division.
I left Protestantism because of it's many divisions (over 20,000 separate denominations, & still counting) - with each division claiming to have a corner on the Truth. For myself, I found the purest source of that Truth by going back to the roots - back to the Church Jesus established with His Apostles, & to the early Church Fathers who were discipled by the Apostles. What I've learned from those great sources is far different than what I was taught in the many various Protestant denominations.
I do have gratitude for the Protestant churches I was a part of. I learned more about a personal relationship with Jesus from them. I learned about fellowship & close friendships with other believers. I learned about accountability. I learned about the gifts of the Spirit. I learned how to spontaneously worship. I learned about & received healing. I learned how to evangelize. I learned the importance of personally reading & studying the Bible. I learned how to fall in love with Jesus.
But once I discovered all the good that had been thrown out with the bad during the Reformation, I knew I couldn't go back to "church as usual" (my own definition for what I experienced - not meant to reflect upon the experiences of any others!). I knew that I had been deprived of 1500 years of a rich Church heritage, whereas I'd been taught that the Church was "dead" until the 1500's.
I feel blessed to be in a congregation, & a denomination, that embraces all of the blessings we learned from Protestantism, combined with all the blessings we're re-discovering from the early Church. I love being part of a Church that's fully evangelical, fully liturgical, & fully charismatic -- isn't that what the early Church looked like?
My entire family of origin is Protestant. My inlaws are Jewish on one side, & Greek-Orthodox on the other. I love all of them. I celebrate all of their beliefs. I see Jesus in all of their faces, & in all of their lives. I hope they can see Him in me.
I'm grateful for this board - where I can interact with people from all sorts of spiritual backgrounds, on all sorts of spiritual journeys. I pray for all of those I interact with, leaving all of them in God's most capable hands. I know He loves each one, & desires an intimate relationship with them, as He does with all of us. I pray that we will each find our way there, regardless of the obstacles, regardless of the expectations, regardless of how we may have been hurt "in the name of God" in the past.
I hope this thread will be a blessing to us all.
Shalom, Dena
P.S. Dog: if you go back into the archives & read my previous posts, particularly the ones which got me blocked, I think you may find that you have very little to disagree with me about.
Posted by Tovah on December 15, 2003, at 22:39:56
In reply to Re: Blasphemy and Accusatory Snide Remarks!, posted by Dena on December 15, 2003, at 21:54:24
Amen Dena!
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 16, 2003, at 8:23:36
In reply to Regarding Orthodoxy :) :) :), posted by Tovah on December 15, 2003, at 17:53:25
Thank you, I will most definitely read that book!
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 16, 2003, at 8:52:16
In reply to Regarding Orthodoxy :) :) :), posted by Tovah on December 15, 2003, at 17:53:25
> If you're interested in knowing more, don't let the ethnic divides stop you. Read "The Orthodox Way" by Bishop Kallistos Ware.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Dog on December 16, 2003, at 8:53:15
In reply to Re: Blasphemy and Accusatory Snide Remarks!, posted by Tovah on December 15, 2003, at 17:59:28
feelings will run hot in the case of anything about the mother of Jesus, who is my Lord. the cult of Mary is very strong. she is, as i said before, most blessed among women, but she cannot hear your prayers... only the Lord Jesus Christ, who is a jealous God, is worthy... i am not a great theologian, but i do believe the only authoritative writings are the Holy Scripture which are the 39 books of the Old Testament, and the 27 books of the New... in these books, all point to Christ and there are no "buts": its not "worship God and serve Him only..."but" also pray to Mary and listen to her and venerate her and make a statue of her and put it in your church and kneel down and pray to her" or even anything like that or anything that can be interpreted that way... there is nothing i have ever seen in the Protestant church that "essentially puts her down"... if you can show me something that most Protestants accept that "puts her down", i would stand corrected, but i know, as God is my God, i have never, ever seen anything that remotely "puts her down"...i would also ask you to qualify what "puts her down" means... perhaps you've taken something personally against yourselves, as Mary-worshippers, that someone said Mary is not God, which she isn't, or someone said something against the practice of kneeling down before a statue of Mary or something... the cult of Mary worship is also strikingly similar to many fertility cults who worship a female deity as a central figure in their religeon...Praying to Mary and having her as the central figure in your faith is not Biblical Christianity...
i'm glad you have experience in different "flavors" of the Christian Faith...Lutheran, Methodist, Roman Catholic, etc., but essentially there is only ONE Christian Faith, and that is Faith in Jesus Christ, which is the God of the Bible...in Jesus we are saved...it is by His work on that Cross that we are saved from our sins and it is nothing else...
i love what Mary did and I love her... i believe she lives, but her bones are on earth... she will be resurrected some day as will we all...every knee shall bow before Jesus Christ someday, even Mary's knee will bow before Him...until then we are to "vernerate", worship, pray to, serve, love Jesus Christ only, and no one else...Jesus is the central figure in Christianity and there is no one else...He did not say "I am the way, the truth, and the life", and then say "but my mother Mary is also"... it was Jesus Himself saying "I, I, I" and there is no one else...> Whoa! I think feelings ran a little hot here. I am a former Protestant (I was Methodist as a child and Lutheran as an adult). I am a convert to Eastern Orthodoxy (the church that goes way back BEFORE the Reformation). And I must say that I know what Dena is referring to re. Mary because I have read some Protestant writings that essentially put her down. It is one thing to not "worship" her (BTW, she is venerated in our faith, not "worshipped"), but SOME (perhaps not you or people you know, but SOME) Protestants do go a little bit too far in the other direction. Please don't say these attitudes don't exist anywhere in Protestantism; you may not have expereinced it or read it yourself, but Dena and I have. However anything we post has to do with our own experiences and not YOU or YOUR faith per se. Hope that helps.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 16, 2003, at 9:00:07
In reply to Re: Blasphemy and Accusatory Snide Remarks! » Tovah, posted by Dog on December 16, 2003, at 8:53:15
> she is, as i said before, most blessed among women, but she cannot hear your prayers... only the Lord Jesus Christ, who is a jealous God, is worthy... i am not a great theologian, but i do believe the only authoritative writings are the Holy Scripture which are the 39 books of the Old Testament, and the 27 books of the New...
The idea here is support, so please don't put down the beliefs of others. Sorry, but this may mean not posting some aspects of some beliefs. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dena on December 16, 2003, at 10:46:12
In reply to Re: Blasphemy and Accusatory Snide Remarks! » Tovah, posted by Dog on December 16, 2003, at 8:53:15
Dear Dog -
I appreciate your perspective, & I understand it. I once shared your perspective, because it was what I had been taught.
I was taught by my previous spiritual mentors that the Catholic & Orthodox churches were full of empty, ritualistic, religious practices, & that they weren't "true believers", with few exceptions. I was taught that the Church was dead & cold from the time the Apostles died until the Reformation, with few exceptions. I believed all of this, because I'd been taught by people I trusted. I believed it in the way a small child believes whatever their parents tell them, without questioning it. But, if a child believes as an adult, just because their parents said so, without exploring why they believe, they will never make it their own beliefs. In the same way, if a person believes what they've been told without exploring why, they're just parroting what they've been told.
Bottom Line: All people who recognize Jesus to be the Messiah, who believe Him to be their Savior & Lord, are Christians. They may describe it in different terms, they may have experienced different types of conversions, but they now belong to the same Body, the same Church, regardless of which church they attend. I am in that Body, Dog. And because you say you are, I believe you are, too. Only God knows the hearts of men - only God knows who truly belongs to Him (which is why we are not to judge). But we're in the same family, Dog, & it is to our shame if we argue against each other from a position of pride.
As in all families, when a disagreement arises, both sides need to be heard fully in order to get a true perspective. So it is within the Church family. As a Protestant, I was taught only one side of church history, only one perspective. I accepted it as truth, because others had said so, & had written so. I read numerous books, listened to numerous teachers, but they were all of the same persuasion, Protestant, so I had a very limited one-sided perspective. Proverbs is clear that a person who listens to & believes only one side of a disagreement is a fool (not my word, but the word of Solomon).
Through a process of God-led steps, I came to understand that I'd been taught only part of the truth. I came to realize that I had to get information from the "other side" (Catholic & Orthodox), from their perspective, in order to get a clearer understanding. I had to let go of many lie-based biases that I'd believed for so long. I had to repent for my pride, my blindness & my presumptions. I had to repent for the hatred I'd held against other members of the very Body of Christ! Once I'd repented, it was as if scales fell from my eyes, & I saw things my pride had hidden from me before. It was as if I had to learn a new language in order to understand what was being taught & practiced in the Catholic & Orthodox churches; without understanding the "language", I had believed things wrongly - they'd been misinterpreted.
I had to go back to the earliest writings of the Church, written by the Apostles & those whom they discipled (this was before the Bible had been canonized, but believe me, Jesus established a Church that was able to stand true, even without written scriptures - He had taught them the Traditions that were intended to uphold Truth -- Traditions which were intended to be revered along with the written scriptures). I couldn't avoid the question: If Protestantism was the whole truth, why were there so many thousands of divisions within Protestantism - with so many of them showing hatred toward the others?
What I learned initially blew me away - it took me out of the carefully-guarded comfort zone that I'd been in in the Protestant churches. I began to understand the importance of Tradition & of spiritual authority - things I'd been taught to disdain. I'd been taught a sort of "revisionist history" of the Church. The true history is so much more rich, deep, mysterious & powerful.
There is truth in the Protestant Church (but not the whole truth) - there is much good there for the whole Body (but not all of the good) - even the Catholic Church recognizes it & encourages it's members to learn from the Protestant emphasis on evangelism, fellowship, knowing Jesus personally, & personal Bible study. In fact, the Catholic Church refers to the Protestants as "separated bretheren" - recognizing them as part of the same family. I've personally heard & read from many Protestants who describe Catholics as "heretics, cultists" & worse -- as well as describing the Catholic Church as the "whore of Babylon" & "the antichrist". Quite a stark contrast of grace versus pride.
I encourage you to go outside of your comfort zone & study some writings about the Catholic Church (& the Orthodox Church) written from the Catholic & Orthodox perspective, rather than limiting yourself only to the Protestant sources. There's really nothing to be afraid of - there's nothing contagious. I especially recommend reading some of Scott Hahn's books (he converted from Protestantism to Catholocism, his web site: http://www.mindspring.com/~darcyj/files/drhahn.html), as well as Peter Gilquist's books (he converted from Protestantism to Orthodoxy. More about Orthodoxy: http://www.orthodoxnet.com/orthodoxy/discover.html). Both of these men were raised Protestant, so you could relate to their understanding & their "language", yet perhaps come to see what they've learned in their journies.
Again, there's nothing to be afraid of. These men love Jesus with their whole hearts. These men are part of your family - you should hear what they have to say.
It troubles me greatly that we, you & I, who are part of the same Body of Christ, should be perceived by the world to be at odds with each other, & even resorting to anger, accusations & name calling. How will they "know we are Christians by our love", if we cannot show each other love? I am deeply ashamed of my own prejudices against members of His Body, of my judgements against the things I do not understand, of my sense of "being better" than others. I desire more humility, more mercy, more grace, more love toward all who call on the name of Jesus.
The Church is supposed to be salt & light in this world. We're supposed to be making a difference in this world. We're supposed to reflect Him.
How do you think the world sees us? Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us!
Shalom,
In His Love,
Your sister,
Dena
Posted by Dog on December 16, 2003, at 12:57:00
In reply to Re: Blasphemy and Accusatory Snide Remarks! » Dog, posted by Dena on December 16, 2003, at 10:46:12
Dena,
my sister in the Lord: i think you have been hurt and others have been hurt by some self-righteous individuals who are name-calling... we have to stick to that "bottom line" as you call it...you were, i think, doing some accusing and name-calling and proclaiming things that were not right... maybe you see how easy it is to hurt others feelings, but one shouldn't turn around and hurt someone else's feelings just because you were hurt... Protestants don't as a whole "put down" Mary... any Protestant (or claims to be so) who does is not of my liking...
the Cult of Mary is very strong... again, i love Mary: i believe she did a great thing, one of the greatest things ever done by a human, but only one of the greatest... it all has to take a back seat to Jesus Christ and His work: this is the bottom line...Jesus is the bottom line...
Protestants are grateful for what Mary did, she bore our Lord Jesus...Protestants don't pray to her or kneel before her, though, because that is not what the Bible says ... i have read many of the Church Fathers: Athanasius, Polycarp, Clement of Rome, Clement of Alexandria, et al ... all of the Patristic writings are useful and i highly recommend them but they are not Holy Scripture...
we have to watch that "bottom line" as you call it and stick to essentials... some of which are:-Holy Scripture
-the Virgin Birth
-the Divinity of Christ
-the Trinity or rather, Tri-Unity of God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
-the Resurrection of Christ
-Christ's Atonement for our sins on the Cross
-a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and there are a few others, but mostly the Apostles Creed things.... but as far as kneeling before a statue of Mary, Jesus' mother, that is not "kosher" according to Scripture...you mentioned the "whore of Babylon" which is mentioned in Revelation... i think some have mis-interpreted this and compared it to the Roman Catholic Church because of the worship of Mary, but they were not "putting down" Mary... the argument they profess is that this worship of Mary is not an actual worship of Mary the mother of Jesus at all, but a syncretistic belief.... it is like putting Mary's name and attributes onto a pagan god... the pagans and other religeons in various forms had a fertility godess, and this godess was very popular and some have accused the Roman Church of worshipping that godess and just renaming her Mary...2000 years ago, there used to be temple prostitutes for this godess and one of the ways worshippers paid tribute was by paying money to have sex with the temple prostitutes to worship another god, a godess... however, no Protestant, i don't care how fundamentalist or rabidly anti-RC they are, would say this is in actuality Mary, the mother of Jesus: this would be blasphemy...Mary is in Heaven now... we cannot talk to her... i love Roman Catholics, but if anyone claims they can talk to her, they are sadly mistaken and this isn't just me but according to Scripture, the 66 books of the Bible... they might be sincere and believe with all their heart that she hears them and answers prayer, but they are sincerely wrong... i am not putting anyone's beliefs down and I am not putting Mary down... again i love Mary and what she did and others can believe they want to and i would die for their right to believe as they choose, but this is not Holy Scripture...
Protestant doctrine is, i believe, at least most of the ones that i know, that Mary is a very holy person, and we are all most grateful for what she did, and she is most blessed among women, the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus when she was a virgin and carried our Lord Jesus as an infant...i praise God for her, for His plan that she was a part of...however, Protestants worship only Jesus Christ... they pray only to Jesus Christ...Jesus is our only Lord and God, and there is no other person or name by which one can be saved, not even His mother... Mary is great and did a great thing and she is at least as important as any of the prophets, but Jesus is the one to pray to... everything pales in comparison to Him...praying to anyone or anything else, according to Scripture (the Biblical Canon of 66 Books) is in error...
Posted by Dena on December 16, 2003, at 14:49:43
In reply to Re: Blasphemy and Accusatory Snide Remarks! » Dena, posted by Dog on December 16, 2003, at 12:57:00
Dear Dog -
At this point, I'd like to drop this topic (at least in order to get rid of this particular subject line!).
Yes, we agree on essentials. Yes, we are bretheren. Let's let that be enough.
My entire point, from the beginning, is that I'm glad that, in my own journey, I'm no longer confined to what I believed when I limited to myself to the teachings of the Protestant Church. I have found more Truth - not contradictory Truth, but more. And I can never go back.
I wish you peace.
Shalom, Dena
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