![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by lil' jimi on August 22, 2003, at 10:55:48
In reply to Re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 20, 2003, at 16:45:47
dear sweet habster,
i have been (in between other things) writing a reply to you for more than a day now (?) .... (!)
but i needed to let you know that
1) you are in my thoughts
2) your contributions here, to this thread, are extremely positive, mutually beneficial (well, i hope they are at least partly as beneficial to you are they are to me), and thought-provokingly inspirational ...
... please, please, please, do not feel unwanted ...
3) thank you for adoring me ... i adore you too ... and i hope that you are adoring you at least as much as i adore you ... ... (i already adore me too much ... ... ask sylvia ... HA!)
4) to warn you that i value this conversation so much i may try to keep it going longer than you can stand ... so you may end up having to tell me when to quit ... but please don't ... ... HA!
5) and to let me give you these things so they can stop buzzing around in my head and let me try to concentrate on my reply i'm writing you ... ... now, i hope ... ... !i feel like as we delve into your perspective on these faith issues, we are discover / uncovering important and valuable features to our individual belief systems and epistemologies.
i am finding this process ... moving ... and significant ....
... ... i also find it very supportive and encouraging ... the more impressively so in that it would seem to me to be supportive and encouraging of differing spiritual values simultaneously ... no mean feat ...it is not possible for me to express how very much i appreciate you putting up with me and letting me play like this ... ... though i hurt for your suffering, you are giving me great joy ... ... so it helps that you adore me anyway, thanks!
you are teaching me things ... ... things i just Think i know
... ... hang in there ...
... ... i'll try to get that post out to you soon ...take care,
~ jimp.s.
on a personal note
(When Are WE Ever not On A Personal Note, Jim? ... ... HA!),
folks here are having our department-retirement "party", for me and three of my colleagues today
... i have worked for the state of texas for 32 years ... dorathea, 35 ... gene, 25 ... ... and miss liz has worked for our general libraries for 50 years ... i am so proud of liz!
.. . .. . .. next friday will be my last day working here ..... ... .. anyway, i am confident that you will understand that i have been preoccupied by things ...
. ... ... but soon i'll be right back at you ...( . ... ... they call it a "party" .. ... ... from 11 to 3 ... (!) ... more like public torture ... just as soon they took me out and shot me ... .. ... rather be put to hard labor cracking rocks from 11 to 3, for gripes' sakes! ... ... i'm exhausted thinking about it and i'm not even among the army of co-workers and companions who are now slaving away to get everything just right ... ... pressures that i do not need, please ... ... ... they all mean well .... very well ... especially my boss .... .... so one must perform for the masses ... .... after all this isn't for us .. ... ... it is for them ... ... ... and it will be really nice .. ... .. once it starts ... and is over with! .... .... just right now it is nerve wracking ... ... and trying (say 'trying' in a falsely lilting tone) to wear out my buddhism .. ... .. if you knon what i mean! HA! )
... ... then i need to post back to Dinah too ... and then .. .. ...
..
~ j
Posted by habbyshabit on August 22, 2003, at 17:17:52
In reply to Appeal to Dr. Bob, posted by habbyshabit on August 21, 2003, at 14:31:24
Dr Bob did reply by email, as I emailed him about the post as suggested elswhere in this site. There was not much he had to offer. I just wanted you to know he did not ignore my post.
Hab
Posted by habbyshabit on August 22, 2003, at 23:47:01
In reply to Re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » habbyshabit, posted by lil' jimi on August 22, 2003, at 10:55:48
Hey Jim,
Congratulations on retiring! We're retired now since last Oct. It's a new day. Is your wife a Buddhist? Do you have month long retreats on your retirement schedule?
You honored me with your last post, deeply. Here I was thinking my thinking (writing) was obtuse and whining.
Bill Maher, Real Time on HBO tonight said that he thought Religion was a neurologic disorder! He wasn't joking! While he didn't elaborate, It was interesting to see someone who's intellect ( and political persuasion) I admire, kind of validate my thoughts. Not that I think all religious folks, or spiritual folks are disordered, not at all.
It seems, now, at this juncture in my process, to be some function of the central nervous system to alight one's mind with a pathway that allows one comfort in the midst of what is surely chaos on this planet. Could it be an evolutionary advantage? Fear is dis-advantages. Faith makes for boldness and fearlessness. Just ask the suicide bombers.
I was lying in a darkened room yesterday, quite distressed with all this when suddenly I was just empty of thoughts about it or anything else. Shunyata! Could I have stumbled across a secret of Buddhism? Emptyness? I've meditated to the point of quiet - not emptiness. Could all this be some cerebral Koan that has no answer and leads, Zen like, to emptiness.
I have to admit I have felt better since. Not that I have answers or faith or am a born again Buddhist. It was a curious thing. One minute tears, fear, dispair. Then next minute, emptiness. No fear, pain, processing, thinking. T'was very wierd.
Has my central nervous system shifted gears into normal, everyday conciousness? Or worse, am I escalating into a hypo-mania? Two years ago, I never had to ask these questions. My cycles were years long and normalcy and spirituality live side by side in relative peace.
It is an interesting topic - eh? - spiritual experience and faith and it neurological underpinnings. Hard to believe I never looked at it before. Oh, I've heard the near death experiences of moving into a tunnel with light at the end is just the firing of a dying neurology, but I never gave it much thought, or credence. That too I wanted to believe in. Life after death. You know, dying faith, takes that with it, the belief in an after or before death. And I'm a channel for God's sake. I don't even want to go into just now what these thoughts have done with that avocation!!! Arlon!!! In that darkened room yesterday, I couldn't even turn to them for answers.
Oh, Jim, I'm so glad this conversation inspires you. While I bless your joy. It gives me great hope that maybe shunyata is really the only answer there is. Can you live in emptiness? Buddhism is so full of ritual, mantra and color that emptiness always seems so, well, empty! A contradiction.
Hope your party was more fun than the anticipation.
With deep respect,
Hab
Posted by lil' jimi on August 23, 2003, at 22:14:52
In reply to Re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion ? » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 20, 2003, at 16:45:47
dear Habby,
> Jim, you know I adore you.
as i adore you
> I also am in this state of mind that wants to argue that it's not spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion but both at the same time. >
excellent ... ... i have to agree ...
> It's called a divine revelation when it's a culturally accepted and seemingly insightful, useful in the 'real' world phenomenon and a delusion when no one else can relate to it. >
yes.
> At any rate it is very real to the one experiencing it, just ask my husband.
i understand.
> This isn't the place to dissect my husband's experience in that it's the faith board, about religion and spirituality - not about psychological dysfunction. >
as you wish ... ... i’m here because of my psychological dysfunction ... ... your husband offers us an illustrative case-in-point for an example in our discussion ... ... he has my deepest respects and sympathies
> I brought him up as I was writing because I realized living with his experience is what lead me down this slippery slope into questioning faith and the nature of the psycho-neurologic basis of spiritual experience. >we can see how his issues have had an adverse impact on your confidence in your faith ... ... an excellent reason for you and i to be here, i’d say.
... ... ... for my part, i continue to pursue this because of my interest in “the nature of the psycho-neurologic basis of spiritual experience” ....> I read a very scholarly article that convincingly painted jesus as a manic depressive!
could you find us a title and author? ... ... sounds fascinating. .. .. ... could make for an interesting discussion here ...
> What is this thing called faith and how does our brain conspire with our minds to give us just the spiritual experience that matches our religious beliefs. In my days of moving into Buddhism - I had a beautiful experience of feeling like the female body of Buddha. If I had been equally enamored with Christianity instead, might it not have been interpreted as the female body of Christ? You see - which comes first - the belief or the spiritual experience. >
speaking strictly from my personal experience, i would have never had spiritual experience(s) if i had had to have believed in spirituality first ... ... my first several spiritual experiences were in the face of my then hard-bitten deliberately anti-supernatural belief system ... ... ... and, to me, these anti-validating aspects of my experiences are what has persuaded me of their spiritual significance ... ... ... in general, we should expect that one of the hallmarks of spiritual or religious experiences should be their power to transform our lives ... this should be expected to be rather more than just validating one’s status quo ... ..
> My spiritual experiences still color my view of the world. So do my husbands experiences. And believe me, he is very functional in the everyday world. I'm very confused, I agree. But your arguments are chicken/egg theories to me, based on the cultural consensus of the day and the milieu you find yourself in. Talk Dakini's to a Islamic fundamentalist and they'll think your as nutty as I think my husband's ideas are. ( I think - I know very little about Islamic fundamentalism, what with all those virgins and everything ) >
there is no argument that the cultural milieu and religious context can and does interact with spiritual experience ... ... and this mutual interaction can be formative of religions ... ... ... for instance, buddhism continues to hunt for its cultural legs here in the united states ... ... but it is not necessarily invalidating of spiritual experiences ... ... we should expect the benign celestial forces to try to transmit their blessings in the vernacular of the culture of their beneficiaries
> My thoughts are not those of a scholar. I am talking off the top of my head and out of the pain in my heart. >
i’m no scholar neither! ... ... “buddhologist” is used as a term of disparagement among the devout .... .... i offer my respects for you in your suffering ...
> I'd love to go back to believing. I guess I'll eventually have to leave this board, having become irrelevant to the nature of the discussions here. Boy that's a drag. But I love you guys for taking up this conversation with me. >i have offered you my denial of these assertions that this discussion would be seen as inappropriate here ... ... i find it highly appropriate .... .... may the powers that be agree.
> Still working it out,
> Habme too, but i’m not in your pain level ... so i want to help ...
there’s lively debate about the metaphysical underpinnings of neuroscience ... ... including theories of consciousness ... ...
... our factors we are considering include :
... ... social/cultural/religious
... ... neurotransmitters
... ... spiritual experience... the eliminativists argue that all forms of consciousness are illusory
... physicialists argue only materiality is “real” ... ... these two constitute the main materialists’ attempts at monism ... dualism being avoided ...
... and there are proponents from the other side making their immaterialist counter-arguments ...... this is your chicken-and-the-egg debate ...
... which is casually primary? ...
... socialization?
... belief system?
... consciousness?
... neurotransmitters?i admire the natural scientific view ... ... the big bang ... stellar and planetary evolution ... biological evolution ...
... this is a standard view: we evolved neurotransmitters to promote our survival and procreation ... ... this lead to consciousness ... intelligence ... spiritual experience ... ... ... all of which is just stacking up the factors by going from least conscious to most conscious ...... ... at this level of conventional experience, it makes intuitive sense to accept that states of consciousness are caused by neurotransmitters’ dynamics ... i don’t bother to deny this ... how else would antidepressants work? ... or any of the psychotropic drugs work? ... ... ... yet, if even the highest forms of spiritual experiences are the consequence neurotransmitters, should we feel spirituality is thus degraded?
the first noble truth explicates the primacy of suffering
... ... ... my own interpretation of this truth is to view our universe as being composed of discrete quanta of agony
... ... ... we have evolved serotonin levels to protect us from feeling this agony on its universal scale
... ... ... so we are each in peril should our serotonin levels fall too low for any reason ... the cosmic pain can crush our ability to endure and drive even the strongest of us to self-destruction ... only this thin veil of serotonin stands between us and this unutterable risk ... ...there are alternatives to those conventional views ... ... there is the effect that consciousness can have on our neurotransmitters ... ... meditative practices have been shown to increase serotonin levels ... ... and the consciousness of stress and trauma have impact on neurotransmitters’ levels ... hypnotism can effect neurotransmitter levels ...
in light of the eternal values, all existent things arise from mutually interdependent co-origination ... arising simultaneously as a vast woven fabric of a mutually reinforcing web of “causes” and “effects” ... ... this view does not deny the view from conventional duality of cause and effect, it includes it ... ... but this non-dual view can defy these chicken and egg arguments ... ...
... ... yet i accept that despite the validity of the eternal view (and any skepticism we may have about it), your husband has a practical, conventional problem, which should see a conventional treatment ... ... adjusting his neurotransmitters is the obvious approach to relieve non-reality, irrationally based delusions ... ... if only he could be complicit for you ...
i can not guess if this has been helpful for you ... ... you and he are in my prayers
... i thank you for your discourse here from which i continue to benefit ...(today is our 17th wedding anniversary!)
take care!
~ jim
Posted by lil' jimi on August 24, 2003, at 1:01:37
In reply to jim, your post, your retirement, » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 22, 2003, at 23:47:01
> Hey Jim,
hi habby
> Congratulations on retiring!thank you
> We're retired now since last Oct. It's a new day.
congratulations to you !
> Is your wife a Buddhist?
no
> Do you have month long retreats on your retirement schedule?
i wish
.. .... .. no
> You honored me with your last post, deeply. Here I was thinking my thinking (writing) was obtuse and whining. >the honor was mine ... ... your evocative thought-provoking message was a stimulating inspiration for me.
> Bill Maher, Real Time on HBO tonight said that he thought Religion was a neurologic disorder! He wasn't joking! While he didn't elaborate, It was interesting to see someone who's intellect (and political persuasion) I admire, kind of validate my thoughts. Not that I think all religious folks, or spiritual folks are disordered, not at all. >
which serves to reminds of an idea i failed to include in my previous post ... ...
> It seems, now, at this juncture in my process, to be some function of the central nervous system to alight one's mind with a pathway that allows one comfort in the midst of what is surely chaos on this planet. Could it be an evolutionary advantage? >
i believe so
> Fear is dis-advantages. Faith makes for boldness and fearlessness. Just ask the suicide bombers.
>
> I was lying in a darkened room yesterday, quite distressed with all this when suddenly I was just empty of thoughts about it or anything else. Shunyata! Could I have stumbled across a secret of Buddhism? Emptyness? I've meditated to the point of quiet - not emptiness. Could all this be some cerebral Koan that has no answer and leads, Zen like, to emptiness. >i don't know and i'm not qualified to judge ...
... ... your "to the point of quiet" sounds like samadhi, where this emptiness you felt reminds me more of descriptions of satori ... the surprise ... the suddenness ... painlessness ... the engaged disengagement ... the relief from cerebral discourse
... ... and i believe that the secrets of buddhism are many times stumbled upon ...> I have to admit I have felt better since. Not that I have answers or faith or am a born again Buddhist. It was a curious thing. One minute tears, fear, dispair. Then next minute, emptiness. No fear, pain, processing, thinking. T'was very weird. >
practically a classic description of satori ... especially your reaction
> Has my central nervous system shifted gears into normal, everyday conciousness? Or worse, am I escalating into a hypo-mania? Two years ago, I never had to ask these questions. My cycles were years long and normalcy and spirituality live side by side in relative peace.
>
> It is an interesting topic - eh? - spiritual experience and faith and it neurological underpinnings. Hard to believe I never looked at it before. Oh, I've heard the near death experiences of moving into a tunnel with light at the end is just the firing of a dying neurology, but I never gave it much thought, or credence. That too I wanted to believe in. Life after death. You know, dying faith, takes that with it, the belief in an after or before death. And I'm a channel for God's sake. I don't even want to go into just now what these thoughts have done with that avocation!!! Arlon!!! In that darkened room yesterday, I couldn't even turn to them for answers.
>
> Oh, Jim, I'm so glad this conversation inspires you. While I bless your joy. It gives me great hope that maybe shunyata is really the only answer there is. Can you live in emptiness? Buddhism is so full of ritual, mantra and color that emptiness always seems so, well, empty! A contradiction. >well, now our tibetans can be positively baroque if not rococo ... ... contrasting with the starkness of japanese zen ...
> Hope your party was more fun than the anticipation.
thank you ... ... it was ... of course
>
> With deep respect,
> Hab
>and right back at you with kisses and giggles ... ...
... ... and deepest respects too ...
~ jimp.s. ... the perspective i wanted to offer before:
... we face another challenge when considering neurological dysfunction, spiritual experiences, hallucinatory delusions, consciousness, the social context, et cetera ... especially distinctions made between valid spiritual experiences versus persistent delusion ... ...
.... the challenge is that physical reality, which we do believe in if we are passing for sane, amounts to a cosmic spiritual delusion
... ... its claims to having a substantial permanent self-nature are as empty as any individual's claim to having an autonomous permanent self-nature ... all are empty ...so there is extra work for the experiencer to do when comparing the appropriate consciousness we use everyday, spiritual experiences and neurologically deficient episodes, because they all must take place on the backgound of our larger cosmic illusion ... ... and should we awaken from this dream, then would (will!!) we be truly conscious ...
~ j
Posted by habbyshabit on August 24, 2003, at 12:35:59
In reply to Habbsterini, posted by lil' jimi on August 24, 2003, at 1:01:37
Fair warning: Printed off the internet, this article runs 31 pages. It is not a derogatory view of the man, however, it is also not a view of him as the "Son of God".
Posted by habbyshabit on August 24, 2003, at 13:30:38
In reply to re: spiritual experience OR hallucinatory delusion » habbyshabit, posted by lil' jimi on August 23, 2003, at 22:14:52
WOW!!! Oh my, have those responses given me food for typing! I'm so glad I'm back in the saddle again, energy wise, to do so!
Give me a day or so to chew it over and hopefully clearly respond.
My resistance to talking of my husbands "persistant delusion" has changed. Thanks for that.
Is there a difference between shunyata and satori - or is it just two different schools of Bhuddism? Semantics?
Be back soon,
Hab
Posted by lil' jimi on August 24, 2003, at 15:58:50
In reply to re: your two new posts Jimster » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 24, 2003, at 13:30:38
hi habby!
> WOW!!! Oh my, have those responses given me food for typing! I'm so glad I'm back in the saddle again, energy wise, to do so! >
and i am so glad that you are feeling better! (!!)
... in fact i value your feeling better so much that i approach this discusssion with care to not degrade your improvement .... which i am making an issue (before i make an issuse of it) because your recovery (may i call it this?) can be an object of this discussion ... and i would not want your turn around jeopardized ...
... so i'm going to depend on you to tell me when to cool it, if this feels adverse to you .. ... i always do that anyway, but i felt the need to make it explicit ...
> Give me a day or so to chew it over and hopefully clearly respond. >
the value here is great enough that any investment pays off with high interest in return ... ... please be at your leisure ... ... ... all in the fullness of time ...
... i remain as morally opposed to being in a hurry as ever ... ... it's against my religion
> My resistance to talking of my husband's "persistent delusion" has changed. Thanks for that. >you're welcome ... ... with deepest respects and fondest regards for him!
> Is there a difference between shunyata and satori - or is it just two different schools of Bhuddism? Semantics? >i always feel compelled to make extensive disclaimers whenever i am invited to go beyond my level of expertise, Which we just did there ... ... by a long shot i'd have to say!
as empiricists, we claim no knowledge of things we have not experienced for ourselves ... ... so you can get me to say , "i don't know", because i do not ... ...
then
... ... from what i have studied ... i'd say ...satori is a sudden flash-like experience of enlightenment which was defined from within zen, (but which must be a universal element) wherein, classically, the absurd and/or banal of some everyday experience triggers a breakthrough of cosmic insight in which total enlightenment can happen instantaneously .... .... this experience may be of something ineffable ...
sunyata is some _________ ineffable.
i have hesitated to use it in a sentence at all ...
... it is used in order to discuss things in conventional terms so that we may speak about things' "total absence of a substantial permanent autonomous self-nature" ... ... which is equivalent to categorical repudiation of absolutism ...
... the challenge is to have a term for this without it invoking its self-nature (ego) or becoming trasformed into an absolute which it seeks to disavow ... ... "sunyata", emptiness, is the term that was chosen ...
... because our mental categorization mechanisms are always dissecting experience into its dualities, we are weak to fall into expecting sunyayta to be thing-like ... a concept or a precept ... something our mind may objectitfy ... something it may abstract ...... so essentially "sunyata" disqualifies itself as a noun or direct object of a sentence ...
... so, many times, giving up on or the failure of cognitive or intellectual or mental effort is precursor to ... ...
well, to answer your question:
satori can be the experience of sunayta
... in conventional terms that can't be too wrong, i don't believe ...and once the cognitive/intellectual apparatus can get out of the way, it (may) become(s) possible to suddenly see beyond the veil of the cosmoc illusion ...
... and it does strike me that this may have happened to you ...
... which we may feel better about just crediting it to shear spontaneity ...
... or ... may we consider the possibility of your neurological condition as bringing on this ? ... ... this is the consideration i hesistated to speak, least it hurt you ....here for discussions sake we have ...
your emptiness experience ....
your improvement/recovery from your recent malaise....
your neurological condition ...we Could start asigning causes and effects and we may expect what others would assign ...
and in so far as that may benefit you, by invoking conventinal terms and analysis to gain deeper understanding, this is a good thing ...
yet when seen in light of the co-originating of the mutual interdependence of all of these things ... arising together ...
this is in the same way that my relationship with my son not only defines him as our son, but it defines me as his father ... and although it is conventioanlly obvious that, i as his father caused him to be our son, it is just as true that he, by being our son, caused me to be his father ... robeert santiago is 4 and a half and for fun i tell him that he made me a daddy because without him i wouldn't be a daddy ... ... he doesn't believe me because he rejects notions of me as not daddy, bless him ....
all existent things have this relationship and it is this relationship that is sunyata ... because brahma is not sunyata and ishwara is not sunyata since sunyata is not a thing, but the interrelatedness of these things to each other thing ...
the old ontological debates about how many things the world is made of? monism, dualism, the 4 elements, nihilism ... it it one thing or 2 or just these 4 or more ... ... zero things?
what if everything and every single thing were each individually unique?
what if every existent thing was uniquely its own, such that the number of things the world is made of turns out to the the number of things there are ?such totally unique things would have no way to interact or relate because each would be so totally different from everything else
EXCEPT
for their uniqueness ...
... ... what every object would have in "common" would be that they are unique ... and they would relate on the basis of their ... inability to relate ...... i'm depending on the value of the saying that no wise thing can be said without stating it as a paradox here ...
> Be back soon,
> Habtake all the time you like ...
.... .... .... seems like i can hear manjushri laughing at my exposition here ... ... he has a decent sense of humor ... i'm just kidding you, manjushri, man !!hello,
~ jim
Posted by habbyshabit on August 25, 2003, at 10:31:26
In reply to re: satori and sunyata, posted by lil' jimi on August 24, 2003, at 15:58:50
hello Jimi,
Empirically speaking, the word sunyata came to mind as the mind itself began engaging my awareness after that sudden lapse into nothingness. I wasn't sure what it meant myself so I looked it up google wise and without reading much saw that emptiness and shunyata were used together.
I really don't care what it's called, though it does help in describing an experience never quite encountered before, to have a word that has connotations my friend Jimi might recognize. It just popped in the old brain hopper. Perhaps just the mind, as you say, wanting to dissect and catagorize the experience into it's dualities for the purpose of, what, comfort? Ego aggrandizing?
What I do know, from an empirical standpoint, is that this whole discussion of faith dying died in my mind after that. It doesn't seem to matter what the grey matter is doing. The mind (not physical in this sense ) seems for now content to not have an answer, to wander the earth with out a God or religion or supernatural friend/mentor/teacher.
Will this last? Is this just the exhaustion of excessive neurologic firing? Is it the bipolar in some sort of limbo? Is it satori? Is it all of the above - the co-origination and mutual interdependance of all things arising simultaneously. I'd vote for the latter.
Please, Jimi, don't tread lightly around my bipolar neurology. I've been living with it for over 30 years and get testy when treated like I'm some fragil thing with eggshells scattered around my feet.
Yes, my neurology played some role in that experience of nothingness. Maybe it was a marker of the "switch" manic-depressive wise, although gradual progress was happening already. Maybe I "stumbled" onto a Buddhist-like experience because of the mental strain of trying to make sense of all things in my mind - no faith, delusional husband, a changing bipolar condition, etc. and all of the above arising simultaneously in a interdependant relationship!
(Manjushri - bring wisdom to my words, make me sound smart!!!)
Speaking of arising simultaneously... what a lucky boy, your four year old is, to have a retired daddy! Congratulations also on 17 years married to an angel. You must have lived a very good life!
I really appreciate all the words you have written in response to my experience and they have helped steady the rocking boat. It's seems this short post gives short shrift to all you have had to say. Please know that every single word, interdependantly arising (I tease now you know), has left it's mark on my consciousness.
I may be back with more - the topic of brain vs mind is a loaded one.
Hab
Posted by lil' jimi on August 25, 2003, at 16:17:32
In reply to re: satori and sunyata » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 25, 2003, at 10:31:26
hi Habby,
excellent!
just to know you're not suffering as you were, is enough for me ...... our experiences can be precious to us and my trepidation was to not make us feel like i was degrading any experience(s) ... mutually co-originated ... ... HA!
... ... i was not (though i would have) giving you the kid glove treatment ... i just wanted to reassure myself that i was being respectful of your 'emptiness experience' ... ... which i still feel could be a contender for satori ... ...
... i am just so grateful that you feel better, that i'd hate to deflate you ... ... but you have straightened me out there ... ... ... i'll just try to give you h*ck! .... okay ? ... ... ... HA!
take care,
~ jim
Posted by habbyshabit on August 26, 2003, at 13:48:34
In reply to Habbsterini, posted by lil' jimi on August 24, 2003, at 1:01:37
Sweet Jim,
Sorry if there was some testyness in my last post. I obviously mis-understood just what it was you were being careful about in my "recovery". It would appear that the Bipolar thing is a hot button issue at times. And it is when I feel people treat me differently once they have the knowledge of my diagnosis so few do. Often people do change when they do have that information about me.
That you were being delicate with the satori-like experience was not my interpretation, of course. I'm blinded by my own prejudices I guess.
I no longer suffer in the ways this thread began. Yeah me! Even my husbands illness has taken on a new light and my responses to him have changed.
There is so much to be said and responded to in the posts of yours prior to my last. I have been re-reading them and copying juicy little bits to my word processor to answer more directly.
I too have benefited much from our conversation. I would be nice to have others jump in again, but with out Jesus as the king-pin to the intellectual sparring, I think we lost a few interested ones. Ah well, ya never know who's reading.
Yours truly,
Habsterini
Posted by Dena on August 26, 2003, at 14:15:23
In reply to Re: Jesus and Manic Depression Article, posted by habbyshabit on August 24, 2003, at 12:35:59
I knew I shouldn't have read this article.
It really hurt to read such a view of the One I worship & love.
If anyone doesn't also worship & love Him, then they should at least not try to destroy the faith of those who do.
I suspect that if I'd referenced an article on Buddha being schizophrenic, I would have been banned.
It would seem that religious tolerance is a "do what I say, not as I do" phenomenon.
I'm reminded of what Jesus Himself said, just before He died, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Shalom, Dena
Posted by lil' jimi on August 26, 2003, at 15:26:40
In reply to lil'jimi rimpoche » lil' jimi, posted by habbyshabit on August 26, 2003, at 13:48:34
Hi Habby!
> Sweet Jim,
>
> Sorry if there was some testyness in my last post. I obviously mis-understood just what it was you were being careful about in my "recovery". It would appear that the Bipolar thing is a hot button issue at times. And it is when I feel people treat me differently once they have the knowledge of my diagnosis so few do. Often people do change when they do have that information about me.
>
> That you were being delicate with the satori-like experience was not my interpretation, of course. I'm blinded by my own prejudices I guess.
>
> I no longer suffer in the ways this thread began. Yeah me! Even my husbands illness has taken on a new light and my responses to him have changed.
>
> There is so much to be said and responded to in the posts of yours prior to my last. I have been re-reading them and copying juicy little bits to my word processor to answer more directly.
>
> I too have benefited much from our conversation. I would be nice to have others jump in again, but with out Jesus as the king-pin to the intellectual sparring, I think we lost a few interested ones. Ah well, ya never know who's reading.
>
> Yours truly,
> Habsterini... ... this is a wonderful message ... ... thank you!
... ... you are sounding much better ... ... this brings me great joy ...
... ... the audience is as it ever was ...
... ... i can hear them breathing ....
... ... our jumper in-ers shall jump at their own ... jumpiosity .... (HA!)
... ... my best to your husband ... ... go husbands!
... ... yes, i feel a special respect for your satori ... .. ... still do ...... ... glad you're enjoying my ol' posts ... ... hope they are not .... troublesome ....
peace truly for you and yours,
~ jim
Posted by habbyshabit on August 26, 2003, at 16:48:21
In reply to Re: Jesus and Manic Depression Article, posted by Dena on August 26, 2003, at 14:15:23
Dena Dear,
I hesitate to respond to your response to that article. Indeed, I had you in mind when I prefaced the link with the 'fair warning' that these scholars depict Jesus as a man not the Son of God. Personally, aside from essentially giving him the lable of mentally ill, it's a very honorable portrait of a man with beautiful ideas living in a time when such psychological states as Manic Depression were little understood.
As a manic depressive myself, you seem to be one who has little tolerance for the mental illness let alone alternative views of your savior. Is your faith so shakey that another point of view feels like an attack upon it? It would appear so from your response.
Did you give the article a good read or a skim, Picking out words that were distressing? Like manic depression? Am I less lovable for having the diagnosis - should peoples faith in me be destroyed when they discover this about me? ( it does happen, alas )
Dena - no one, including me, or the writers of the article are out to destroy anyones faith in Jesus as the Son of God if that is their belief. It's written there in the first paragraph of the article.
Maybe you were in an overly sensitive mood, what with the loss of your child and your need for succor from that source.
I'm hoping you'll see the fairness in the writer's attempt to create a psychological portrait of a man living in times we can hardly understand from where we live now.
Given Jesus was the son of God, he came here in human form. Perhaps it was the Manic Depression (a very spiritual foilble) that gave him the ability to accomplish the great start of the religion he did! Ya never know... I think you can keep an open mind and your faith, Dena.
With respect,
Hab
Posted by lil' jimi on August 26, 2003, at 17:20:52
In reply to Re: Jesus and Manic Depression Article » Dena, posted by habbyshabit on August 26, 2003, at 16:48:21
Oh Habby Dear,
Please forgive me, but i feel i must admonish you ... ... as gently as possible ... _please_ understand that *i* find no fault with your post ...
However, it is simply inappropriate and not civil to question Dena's faith as "shaky" ... ... it is all too easy to see that this would be hurtful ... ... ... and we do not want to hurt anyone's feelings ... especially Dena's ...
... of course, and i am depending on you to understand me here, i don't want to hurt your feelings either ... i trust you to know that ... ... i am sorry if i am coming to close to that line ...
... actually, despite your excellent disclaimer, i can see Dena's side ... ... she loves Jesus and she feels He has been slandered ... ... such devotion makes it very hard to endure critical analysis ... ... even if we ask for the devout to Not read the article ...
... but interpreted at her worst, we should not cast doubt on Dena's faith ... ... that is not right ... ...
Habby, i hope you understand
... ... i would not want to hurt you
... and it is my fault, because you were discreet before i insisted you share that URL ...... i fear that other's will also see your post as uncivil and that you may suffer sanctions ... ... i am hoping this goes better with you ... since it is coming fom me ...
... maybe?Yours Truly,
~ jim
Posted by habbyshabit on August 26, 2003, at 17:52:43
In reply to re: Manic Depression Article » habbyshabit, posted by lil' jimi on August 26, 2003, at 17:20:52
Point well taken, Jim. My apologies to Dena. I guess I took her response personally. And me, of so little or no faith, should be the last to judge another's, eh?
Did she not attack us? Not you and me, necessarily, but anyone who does not see things as she does. We need forgiven, need we not, for we know not what we do, it would seem, only the faithful of Jesus do. Arrogance, I find irritating.
I apologizing for reacting without tempering my response. I guess this is a very touchy place. I touched a nerve in you for sure Jim, and the article touched Dena very deeply in a negative way.
What happened to freedom of speech. I didn't accuse her of shaky faith - did I? Wasn't it an honest question in light of her response.
I did not mean to attack, although I think both Dena and I did feel attacked for different reasons.
I bow to your faithfulness, Dena. May it uphold you always.
Thanks Jim, for you observances.
Peace to all,
Hab
Posted by Dena on August 26, 2003, at 19:43:21
In reply to re: Manic Depression Article to Jim and Dena, posted by habbyshabit on August 26, 2003, at 17:52:43
I had a long response ready to go, but I lost it somehow - sigh. I'll respond soon - I long for reconciliation with all. Please be patient.
Posted by Dena on August 26, 2003, at 22:06:20
In reply to re: Manic Depression Article to Jim and Dena, posted by habbyshabit on August 26, 2003, at 17:52:43
This is bizarre - I've tried three times to post a response - only to have them "disappear" each time. OK, God, give me your words, because I'm not doing too well on my own!
How to even begin? I'm struck by how easy it is to misinterpret each other when facial expressions, gestures & vocal inflections don't get to play in the communication. When all we have is typed words on a "page", it's so easy to misunderstand.
Perhaps I should back up & proceed chronologically.
I must ask forgiveness for offending anyone with my previous posts, especially those posts which got me blocked. I can't apologize for the content - I truly believe that I expressed absolute truth. However, I deeply regret that I harmed anyone.
I wish you could see my heart, the motives with which I wrote. Perhaps it sounds trite to say my motivation was/is love, but it's true. Not sappy "oh, I just love everybody" emotionalism, but love that comes through me, from God, to others. I don't manufacture this love - it doesn't originate with me.
If, for a moment, you would see this hypothetically with me...
IF there is a Supreme Being, One who created everything & everyone... & IF this Creator designed us to live in perfect union with Him, only we rebelled & became separated from Him... & IF this Creator loved us enough to make a way back to Himself... & IF only His way actually led back to Him... & IF the consequences of trying to find our own ways led instead to destruction... & IF the ones who chose His way were told to take the message of hope to all others as an act of sacrificial love... Then, how loving would those ones be if they remained silent out of seeming respect? How kind would they be to weigh compassion against tolerance & to let tolerance win?
What IF there really were a Day of Judgment, when all people have to give an account as to how they chose - the Creator's way or their own way - & to therefore live forever with the Creator in joy unspeakable, or else to perish in unending destruction? What IF people who must suffer destruction came up to the ones who had chosen the Creator's way & said, "Why did you remain silent? Why didn't you tell me what you knew? Why did you withhold the message?" What sort of kindness would that be?
Because I love, because I care, I am compelled to share the message of hope, before it's too late. I have to be willing to risk anger, rejection, even hatred. Because I don't ever want to hear anyone ask me why I remained silent, why I withheld the message. I don't ever want to be the one who allowed others to perish. It's so critical. It's the most important thing Ii can ever do. It's the greatest gift I can ever give.
I'm so sorry that I've come across as arrogant. I'm NOT better than anyone on this board, nor anyone on this planet! I'm just one of the ones who got told the message by someone who cared enough to risk my becoming offended. I took a leap of faith to believe, & then I saw. That doesn't make me better at all. Anything good in me comes from the One who IS love. Anything bad comes from the parts of me He hasn't changed yet. I never meant to attack, if that was how my words were perceived. I just want to impart hope, joy, a way home.
I feel I must comment on my quote of Jesus, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." This was intended for the writer(s) of the article about Jesus being manic-depressive. If the ones who crucified Jesus knew Who He was, they would have never killed Him. And if the writers of that article knew Who He was, they wouldn't have tried to explain away His actions as those of a manic-depressive, rather than those of the Son of God. My heart broke for them, for missing the point, & my prayer was for their forgiveness.
As for my faith being shakey - yes, it has been, many times. Not so much my faith in God, Himself, but in my own relationship with Him. Through this period of grief, my relationship with Him has grown in intimacy, as I've sensed Him carrying me & comforting me in a way I've never known before.
Habby, I never meant to harm you in any way. I hope you can believe that. I don't see you in a negative light because you have manic-depression; I deal with depression myself. We all have our burdens, though I don't see us as tainted by them. I see you as an amazingly creative person, very initelligent, highly articulate, posessing a wonderful sense of humor, insightful, deep, genuine, giving, & searching. My heart has been moved by your loss of faith, the "nothingness" you've experienced, your struggles with your husband. I wanted to connect with you, that's why I sent you an "introductory" post. I've been praying for you since you began posting, praying that God would bless you with His love, His peace, His joy, His total acceptance of you as His child. I want nothing but good for you. I hope you can forgive me for causing you any harm.
And Jim, thank you for your gentle "interference". You're amazing. Such compassion, such understanding & such warmth comes from you. You have a good heart, Jim. I hope you don't mind that I've taken the liberty to pray for you as well. I've prayed that God would mend all the broken places in your life (I see no evidence of them, but I felt led to pray as such), & that you, your household & your community would be blessed by God.
It's getting late, & I don't want to risk "losing" this post with the other three. If this one gets lost too, I think I'll take it as confirmation that I'm just not supposed to post on this subject. If it gets through, may it lead to reconciliation & peace.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by habbyshabit on August 26, 2003, at 23:26:54
In reply to re: Manic Depression Article to Jim and Dena, posted by Dena on August 26, 2003, at 22:06:20
Dear Dena,
Your post is beautifully written and I'm sure there is reconciliation all around. I'll take all the prayers you care to send. I'll never know for sure the way of this earthly mystery. In kind I send you light and love and peace and a journey full of wonder. This love also seems to come from a place deep within myself that is not of my making or creation. I agree there is a force of love that goes beyond definition and can be "channeled" with an open heart and deep compassion. I may not agree with you the nature of the source.
Now - imagine this - hypothetically speaking:
IF the judgement day comes when all the faithful are called back to God and I am turned away for not believing and choosing him when presented with the facts - well - I'll think fondly of you and of your presence here.
Then IF I'm sent to perish in unending destruction for using the free will he has given me to choose another way - well, that wouldn't be a God whose glory and joy I would want to hang out in everlastingly! Sounds like a controlling kind of supreme being to me - and sadistic at that.
IF Christ's last words to his father as a human were, "forgive them God, for they know not what they do", then this Supreme Being wasn't listening. This hypothetical Divinity is the epitomy of unforgiveness and punishment. I'd rather perish, even in unending destruction.
Hypothetically speaking of course - that's just my opinion, I could be wrong... needless to say.
Again, I don't mean to demean your beliefs, but only show my reaction to such a story line. You can see that I am one of the unfaithful, that has been already established. I hope my hypothetical posturing doesn't sound like a putdown. Just my way of seeing the story. I'd probably be cynical of any story anyone could come up with at this point in time, even one of the Buddha.
So I thinks it's great the way you shared your belief with me/us. It's a wonder to have such a strong belief as to risk ridicule and banishment and such. You are getting better at being a missionary for your faith here at PsychoB-Faith.
I admire you for coming back and giving it another go. I also admire you for giving that article a read, knowing it would trigger such a strong response. It shows you have an open mind, even if you might think you don't.
I admire you for trying so well to put this little misunderstanding and hard feelings to rest - which for my part, you have.
I like to call you friend, even if we walk under different umbrellas of protection.
with all love,
Hab
Posted by Dena on August 27, 2003, at 11:15:04
In reply to re: Manic Depression Article to Jim and Dena » Dena, posted by habbyshabit on August 26, 2003, at 23:26:54
[Note: This post contains my own beliefs. It is not my intention, nor my ability, nor my right, to force my beliefs onto anyone else. I only hope that whatever is true, right & good may positively affect anyone who reads it. I hope that whatever is false, wrong & harmful will be filtered out. May your own conscience be your guide.]
Dear Habby:Thank you for your generous acceptance of my attempt at reconciliation. Yes, I'd dearly love to call you my friend. May I be able to be a worthy friend to you.
I can understand your reaction to my hypothetical hypothesis. I once had the same reaction - how could I love & care about a God who would reject people? It would seem I did a poor job of projecting the nature & love of God. I assure you, He is the very substance of pure love. It was only once I understood the amazing sacrifice of allowing His only Son to be tortured & to die on our behalf, that I realized what He had given us so that we could be with Him forever.I heard an anologous story once... A man was a bridge-keeper on a trestle draw-bridge built for trains. His job was to man the controls for the drawbridge.
This man had one son, the joy of his life. A beautiful, loving, cheerful child. This boy liked nothing better than to spend time with his father while he worked on the bridge. His father taught him how to carefully walk across the bridge, keeping his balance so as not to fall. He learned well, successfully walking across the bridge, jumping into his father's open arms.
One day, as the son was making his usual way across the bridge toward his father, the father heard an unexpected sound... a train, an unscheduled train full of passengers, was rushing headlong toward the bridge. The father realized with a crushing anguish that he had to make a fast & horrible choice: if he raised the drawbridge in order to save his son, all the people on the train would perish. In order to save all of the people on the train, he must sacrifice his son. With a heart torn in two, he averted his gaze & allowed the train to destroy his only son so that all the others might live.
This is only a pale reflection of the sacrifice God made so that we, his people, might live with Him forever. It breaks His heart when we reject His sacrifice, & tell Him that it just wasn't good enough for us, that we prefer to choose our own way. Though He will continue to love us forever, He'll allow us to use our free will to turn against Him & His Son. The consequences are of our own choosing, not of His. His desire is that we might recognize His supreme act of sacrificial love & accept His priceless gift: His Son's life in exchange for ours.
We're not SENT by Him to perish, we choose it for ourselves by rejecting His sacrifice. He grieves when we make such a choice, but He never violates our free will.
There is nothing evil, sadistic or hypocritical about God. Don't attribute human tendencies to Him - He doesn't have any of our vices, & His ways are so far above ours that we can't even comprehend them. He is always loving, always kind, always faithful, always trustworthy, always good, always reaching out to us, even when we repeatedly reject Him.
He loves you, Habby. He considers you to be precious, priceless, and loves you so much that He allowed His own Son to die a horrible death so that you could live with Him forever. He's crazy about you.
I'm so glad you welcome my prayers for you. I by no means feel superior to you - every good thing that I am, & every good thing that I have comes from Him.
I pray that you'll come to His place of complete security, purpose, joy & peace! May His love penetrate your soul!
Shalom, Dena
Posted by habbyshabit on August 27, 2003, at 11:52:07
In reply to re: Manic Depression Article to Jim and Dena » habbyshabit, posted by Dena on August 27, 2003, at 11:15:04
Thank you again, Dena, for your prayers. Maybe it's the Jew in me, but I have no desire to convert you to my way of thinking and will argue no more with your "hypothesis". Save your conversion energies for others who might find them appealing. I trust your faith will guide you in ways forever fulfilling. My cup remaineth empty and for that, I am grateful.
Your friend, Hab
Posted by Dena on August 27, 2003, at 13:10:42
In reply to re: Manic Depression Article to Jim and Dena » Dena, posted by habbyshabit on August 27, 2003, at 11:52:07
Dear Habby:
I hear you loud & clear. I respect your desire to leave the "hypothesis" be.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by temmie on August 27, 2003, at 17:38:21
In reply to what happens when faith dies?, posted by habbyshabit on August 18, 2003, at 13:59:01
Dear Habby,
I've missed conversing with you! As your post follows AFTER August 10th (the last I'm able to access from home), I didn't see or know about this conversation here re. loss of faith ... questioning of reality, etc. etc. etc. I hope things are better now. You've been on the receiving end of many lively and loving replies. I'm not sure what I can add, except to say that I hear you. (And I care.) I must have missed the post about your husband, and hope he is faring well, too. (I ran out of steam half way through the long list of replies.)
Again, here's hoping these days are finding you both feeling better and on the mend .... I sometimes refer to these periods as the "desert" times .... Sometimes we just have to hoof it on our own with little access to the needed Spirit, which othertimes, has carried us aloft.
Wishing you love.
Wishing you peace.
Wishing you joy.Re. the "Jesus and Manic Depression" article ... where did THAT come from? Interesting theory, but I have felt Jesus Christ, and know that He is real.
Thinking about these matters (is Jesus the Son of Man/God? Are spiritual experiences real?, etc.) makes me want to go home and pray. And chant! (Thanks Jimi!). Please know as I do so, I am sending prayers of Love, Life, Light and healing your way.
In the meantime, perhaps this snippet from a prayer I posted earlier will be of help. Take care, friend. Be well. Be blessed. Be loved, beloved soul!
Temmie
* * * * *
I place my hand in Thine with all love and trust and confidence, for Thou art indeed my Lord. From the unreal lead me to the Real, from darkness to Light, from death to Life Eternal. At Thy feet, and in the Light of Thy Holy Presence, I strive to realize what I am. I am not this body which belongs to the world of shadows; I am not the desire which affects it; I am not the thoughts which fill my mind; I am not the mind itself. I am the Diving Flame within my heart, eternal, immortal, ancient, without beginning, without end. More radiant than the sun in all His noonday glory, purer than the snow, untouched, unsullied by the hand of matter; more subtle than the ether is the Spirit within my heart. I and my Father are One.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 27, 2003, at 19:24:44
In reply to re: Manic Depression Article to Jim and Dena » Dena, posted by habbyshabit on August 27, 2003, at 11:52:07
> It really hurt to read such a view of the One I worship & love.
>
> If anyone doesn't also worship & love Him, then they should at least not try to destroy the faith of those who do.
>
> DenaI'm sorry you felt hurt, but I didn't see it as an effort to destroy anyone's faith.
----
> Is your faith so shakey that another point of view feels like an attack upon it? It would appear so from your response.
>
> Maybe you were in an overly sensitive mood> Did she not attack us? ... Arrogance, I find irritating.
>
> What happened to freedom of speech.> IF Christ's last words to his father as a human were, "forgive them God, for they know not what they do", then this Supreme Being wasn't listening. This hypothetical Divinity is the epitomy of unforgiveness and punishment.
> My cup remaineth empty and for that, I am grateful.
>
> HabPlease be supportive and don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down or jump to conclusions about them. Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged, but your freedom of speech is limited here.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by habbyshabit on August 28, 2003, at 11:32:42
In reply to Re: what happens when faith dies? ((Habby)), posted by temmie on August 27, 2003, at 17:38:21
Thanks for touching base Temmie. Seems both you and Dr. Bob ran out of steam reading all the posts and lost the thread of the conversation. No matter. It's an out dated thread at this point and posting to you here will be my last post on it.
Let's start a new thread!
I've been watching your troubled computer posts and waiting until you get onto the board more consistantly to write.
Anyway. You sound good, good and harried. I admire women who can do as much as you do, though I can certainly hear the immense stress it is causing you.
As this is the faith board, I'd better bless you and ask that the gods of your favor smile on you and keep you safe through your jouney.
See you at the bottom of the page somewhere!
Love,
Hab
This is the end of the thread.
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