![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 15:37:17
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 15:04:05
Dena,
You wrote,[...God wants you to respond to the universe...study its order, design,...].
I am a jewish believer in God. And I agree with you that the universe has a purpose like you write of. I believe that the stars and planets and moons have been created to be [signs] to us and that the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 17:28:28
In reply to response to Lou Pilder, posted by likelife on February 15, 2003, at 17:52:57
likelife,
Our discussion seems to be [not] about faith ,but about diferences of opinion as to inferrences made by titleistguy's post(s) and there is at least one missing post that was relevant to our discussion. Could you transfer your post to the social board? There, our discussion would not be constrained to matters of faith and others could contribute relevant to the non-faith aspects of our discussion.
Best regards,
Lou
Posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 18:27:30
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 15:37:17
> Dena,
> You wrote,[...God wants you to respond to the universe...study its order, design,...].
> I am a jewish believer in God. And I agree with you that the universe has a purpose like you write of. I believe that the stars and planets and moons have been created to be [signs] to us and that the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork.
> LouAmen, Lou! Psalm 91 is one of my favorites. Sometimes, just looking up at the night sky, at the vastness of it all - I mean, no one's found the end of it yet! To think that the same Creator who made all that, took the time to make each one of us so different & unique & intricate; & He wants to relate with us! wow.
My husband is also Jewish. Since his parents divorced years ago & remarried, I have both a Jewish MIL & a Greek-Orthodox MIL! Everyone should be so blessed!
Thanks for responding - I'm starting to feel a little bit less like a newcomer...
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 18:58:40
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 18:27:30
Dena,
Psalm 91? Would not it be Psalm 19?
Lou
Posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 19:15:14
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 18:58:40
Oops - sorry Lou! That's what I get for trying to type and nurse a baby at the same time! But I DO also like Psalm 91..."He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, 'He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust... [& at the end; God speaking]He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him and honor him. With long life I will satisfy him, and show him My salvation.'"
Shalom, Dena
See how well I can type when I use both hands? Shifting is a lot easier too, LOL!
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 19:19:25
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 19:15:14
Dena,
I am in Cincinnati, Ohio. Are you close to here?
Lou
Posted by rayww on February 17, 2003, at 15:32:02
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 15:04:05
>yet - in fact I think it takes a lifetime to deal with all the lies. If anyone is curious about this approach to recovery, check out http://www.theophostic.com/ I get nothing out of this referral. It just helped me & led me to my miracle, so I pass it along.
>That was inspirational Dena, and thanks for sharing the site too. Theophostic reminds me of whole hearted healing.
http://auto.search.msn.com/results.asp?FORM=AS35&v=1&RS=CHECKED&srch=5&q=whole+hearted+healing
WHH is something a person can do on themselves, and it doesn't cost anything. Once you learn the technique in theophostic can you practice it on yourself, or do you need a professional?Personally, I think we should rely more on ourselves, and do some of this in our late night insomnia, when we are in the right state to force a relaxation and have no distractions.
Posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 17:51:33
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Dena, posted by rayww on February 17, 2003, at 15:32:02
> >yet - in fact I think it takes a lifetime to deal with all the lies. If anyone is curious about this approach to recovery, check out http://www.theophostic.com/ I get nothing out of this referral. It just helped me & led me to my miracle, so I pass it along.
> >
>
> That was inspirational Dena, and thanks for sharing the site too. Theophostic reminds me of whole hearted healing.
> http://auto.search.msn.com/results.asp?FORM=AS35&v=1&RS=CHECKED&srch=5&q=whole+hearted+healing
> WHH is something a person can do on themselves, and it doesn't cost anything. Once you learn the technique in theophostic can you practice it on yourself, or do you need a professional?
>
> Personally, I think we should rely more on ourselves, and do some of this in our late night insomnia, when we are in the right state to force a relaxation and have no distractions.
Thanks for the link - I just checked it out. I've seen this kind of thing before; it's one of the "knock-offs" of Theophostic Ministry, only they take God out of the picture. I've discovered that relying solely on human understanding/insight is very limited. My mind, or the mind of another, can only go so far. But God made me, He knows me better than I do myself, & only He can give me His unlimited, ultimate Truth. Although Theophostic ministry is a Christian ministry (not a therapy), God has been gracious & faithful to heal even those who don't know Him. Anyone can get a free copy of a cassette tape from theophostic.com
Posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 17:55:06
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 19:19:25
> Dena,
> I am in Cincinnati, Ohio. Are you close to here?
> Lou
Hi Lou - I tried three times to reply to this post, but the computer kept eating it! Maybe you already got this, but I live in Fairfax, Virginia, although I've lived all over the place (army brat).
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 17, 2003, at 19:02:19
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 17:55:06
D,
Fairfax, Virginia. Revolutionary War-Civil War-George Mason University. Interstate 95. Robert E. Lee. George Washington, Virginia University, founded by Thomas Jefferson (1812?). Stock car racing, the Great Shenadoah Valley, Virginia Beach, more and more and more. What a place to live!!!!!!
Lou
Posted by rayww on February 17, 2003, at 20:03:38
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 17:51:33
>
> Thanks for the link - I just checked it out. I've seen this kind of thing before; it's one of the "knock-offs" of Theophostic Ministry, only they take God out of the picture.Exactly, that's the main thing I don't like about it, but it is easy to include God into it.
> I've discovered that relying solely on human understanding/insight is very limited. My mind, or the mind of another, can only go so far. But God made me, He knows me better than I do myself, & only He can give me His unlimited, ultimate Truth. Although Theophostic ministry is a Christian ministry (not a therapy), God has been gracious & faithful to heal even those who don't know Him. Anyone can get a free copy of a cassette tape from theophostic.com
>
>I would like to listen to this tape.
Posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 21:20:29
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Dena , posted by rayww on February 17, 2003, at 20:03:38
Hi Rayww!
I agree with you - when we take God out of the focus, He lets us. I've found that even with the best of intentions I can get myself into loads of trouble when I'm in the driver's seat! My question to you would be: why reinvent the wheel? Why take a secularized approach to healing & squeeze God in, rather than go to the original, which was designed by God? (I truly believe that this form of healing works because it's based on the way Jesus healed while He was here on earth - He healed then - and He still heals today).
I encourage you to check out the theophostic.com website. And the tape is definitely worth ordering (especially since it's free)! Theophistic Ministry (TM) counselors can either be laymen or professional, & they'll charge accordingly - I had no problem getting it covered by my insurance since my counselor was a LCSW. I've been trained myself, as a lay(wo)man, but God just isn't having me minister to anyone at this point. The cool thing about TM (& I DON'T mean transcendental meditation!) is that you don't have to go for counseling for very long; God is able to do in moments/days/weeks what it takes years to do in traditional therapy.
It's like the Biblical account of the two guys who lowered their crippled friend down from the roof so he could get right in front of Jesus, who healed him. The house & the surrounding crowd can be likened to all the clutter that gets in the way of our healing (i.e., denial, fear, repression, false beliefs, etc.). The friends are likened to the TM counselor in that they don't actually do any of the work, they just help their friend get into, & stay in, the presense of Jesus. Jesus does all the work Himself. He knows best what needs to be worked on first, & next, & next. And when He does the healing, it's deep, real & maintenance free (my favorite part)!
I believe that somewhere along the line (perhaps during the time of the "Great Enlightenment" when mankind started to think they didn't need God, or anyone else, to be in charge) we've traded the simple, direct, "inside-out" way in which Jesus heals for the more complicated, secular, "outside-in" way in which the recovery community approaches it. We've learned to lower our expectations, to settle for a long, hard, self-effort "tolerable recovery" that's a pale reflection of how we're meant to be healed. I mean, when Jesus healed the crippled man, He didn't say, "Pick up your mat and hobble around as best you can, one day at a time. You'll always be a cripple you know, but here's a crutch to use." No! He said, "Take up your mat and WALK." And he did because he could. And the blind guy - he didn't need glasses after he was healed... he could see! The Lord can and wants to heal us completely, and He will if we trust Him to, relying solely on Him and not on humansitic reasoning. In the Bible, He healed every single person who got into His presense and asked Him to. He didn't refuse any of them. Sure, there were still lots of sick, handicapped & mentally ill folks wandering around, but they didn't ask Him for healing. If they asked, He healed. I think the key is in getting out of the way (both the client & the counselor) & allowing Him to do what He does best.
I've taken a lot of slack from both the church & the recovery community. I've been accused of being delusional about my healing. We've ben so trained to accept only the "tolerable recovery" approach that most people don't have a file for healing. All I know is I once was lost & now am found, was blind but now I see. Praise God!
Posted by rayww on February 18, 2003, at 0:32:50
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 21:20:29
> It's like the Biblical account of the two guys who lowered their crippled friend down from the roof so he could get right in front of Jesus, who healed him.
I find it quite a coincidence that you would mention that particular miracle, because I was thinking about that same scripture yesterday too. I have a question. The scripture says, "Thy sins are forgiven thee, take up thy bed and walk
"http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/5/20#20When we are forgiven of our sin, are the effects of that sin healed as well? Is there that kind of power in the Lord's forgiveness? (These are my own thoughts here) Some mental and physical illnesses are a direct result of sin. If we repent of the sin, and then receive forgiveness, is the disorder healed too? I'm going to put it to the test and see for myself if it works, starting yesterday.
I know some people are gifted healers.
Posted by Dena on February 18, 2003, at 9:23:52
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by rayww on February 18, 2003, at 0:32:50
>
>
> > It's like the Biblical account of the two guys who lowered their crippled friend down from the roof so he could get right in front of Jesus, who healed him.
>
>
> I find it quite a coincidence that you would mention that particular miracle, because I was thinking about that same scripture yesterday too. I have a question. The scripture says, "Thy sins are forgiven thee, take up thy bed and walk
> "http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/5/20#20
>
> When we are forgiven of our sin, are the effects of that sin healed as well? Is there that kind of power in the Lord's forgiveness? (These are my own thoughts here) Some mental and physical illnesses are a direct result of sin. If we repent of the sin, and then receive forgiveness, is the disorder healed too? I'm going to put it to the test and see for myself if it works, starting yesterday.
>
>
> I know some people are gifted healers.Wow - what a great question! I think it's all about God's grace. And what we need. We're always forgiven when we ask, I know that. But sometimes the consequences of the sin happen anyway, because this world is fallen. But I've discovered that when I have to go through the consequences, I'm not going through it alone; and even then, I end up with some sort of blessing for having been obedient about seeking forgiveness.
Another source of healing is when we forgive others. Even if they don't deserve it. Even if they don't ask for it. Even if what they did was horrendous. When we withhold forgiveness it's like swallowing poison & waiting for the other person to die; we end up being hurt. I read a report recently that doctors have linked cancer w/ bitterness in people's lives - the Bible says that bitterness eats away at our bones. I've found tremendous release from all sorts of problems (physical, emotional, spiritual) when I've forgiven others. But still, it's a struggle every time - especially if I've really been hurt. But it's so important to keep the slate clean, both with asking for forgiveness & in giving it.
(Sorry - didn't mean to launch into a sermon)
Yes, many people have the gift of healing. But God can use any of us to heal others, if He chooses and we're willing to be available.
We pray for healing all the time, & sometimes the healing is miraculous & sometimes it comes through medicine.Where do you fellowship?
Posted by rayww on February 19, 2003, at 0:42:47
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by Dena on February 18, 2003, at 9:23:52
Dena, you really do have a deep understanding of this, and I can tell you are a person who likes to figure things out. I like your thoughts, and I have interjected some of my own between the < > to show we basically agree, if that's OK :)
> Wow - what a great question! I think it's all about God's grace. And what we need. We're always forgiven when we ask, I know that.
We are always forgiven <when we repent, and then ask>. Even after all we can do, we still rely upon the Grace of God for forgiveness and salvation.
>But sometimes the consequences of the <unrepented> sin happen anyway, because this world is fallen. But I've discovered that when I have to go through the consequences, I'm not going through it alone; and even then, I end up with some sort of blessing for having been obedient about seeking forgiveness.
<because it takes a long time, even a life time to repent sometimes, and God stays very very very near in our journey through repentance, showering us with little miracles of more than coincidence along the way>This has been an interesting discussion
Posted by Dena on February 19, 2003, at 9:30:34
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by rayww on February 19, 2003, at 0:42:47
Good morning Rayww! I'm really enjoying our running thread too! Being a homeschool mom of 7, some days I hardly get to use 1/8 of my vocabulary. And believe me, if I start going off into theology - their eyes glaze over! A Mom (like a prophet) is never appreciated in her own home!
Thanks for your inserts, I agree with all of them. Only one, though, I'd like to elaborate on. You inserted: >But sometimes the consequences of the <unrepented> sin happen anyway, because this world is fallen.
Yes, definitely, we sow what we reap when our sin remains unrepentant. It's a basic spiritual law, just as effective as gravity (although God retains the right/ability to supercede natural laws with His supernational power, i.e., stopping people from falling in the case of gravity, etc.). But back to my point, I've observed that many times, even when a person does repent, sincerely, consequences of the sin may still follow. Charles Colson, for example, broke the law during the Watergate scandal. Prior to his being incarcerated, he became a believer, & sincerely repented. Still, he had to go to jail. In hindsight, we know that God used his incarceration to launch a ministry that now reaches prisoners around the world. In my own case, I sincerely repented of the sins associated with being bulimic (lies I told, things I stole, relationships I harmed). I was truly forgiven. But the consequences for those sins remained: I still had a reputation of being dishonest; I had to pay for the things I'd stolen; I had to face the damaged relationships. But the good news is that God is in the restoration process. He's faithful to work everything together in our lives for good (especially as it makes us more like Jesus). Even when it doesn't look, feel or seem to be good at the time. We never get the big picture of God's perspective, so we have to learn to trust Him even when we don't understand. (which is most of the time, for me!)
If you don't mind my asking, what's your own testimony? How did you meet the Lord? Where has He led you to fellowship? Don't feel pressured to respond unless you want to. I'll be happy to share my own story, if you're interested. Maybe our stories would be helpful to others.
Posted by rayww on February 19, 2003, at 11:29:52
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » rayww, posted by Dena on February 19, 2003, at 9:30:34
WOW! what a committment. You obviously are not bipolar in any sense of the word, nor do you dissociate. You are in reality 24/7.
Personally, I can't pin point a moment in time that I became a believer, but here's a try. When I was 4 years old I thought my mommy was going to die. She and my dad were hundreds of miles away in a hospital and there was no communication between us. I didn't know if I would ever see her again. I distinctly remember laying in bed, hot summer night, face covered in sweat and tears, aunt sitting beside me running her fingers through my hair trying to comfort me, feeling the cool from the breeze coming in through the window against my wet hair, and I was comforted. I will never forget the spirit of peace that I felt. A child can recognize answers to prayers. I knew she would be all right from that moment on, and come home again. It was the "everything will be all right assurance" that can only come from a loving Father in Heaven. And, if it hadn't been so illuminating and powerful, I would not remember it to this day. My mother's healing was a pure miracle from God, and we knew it, and that experience made believers of everyone in our community, all my friends at church, it was one of those faith promoting experiences that got told repeatedly in every class I attended whenever the teacher would ask, "has anyone had an experience with healing by the priesthood they would like to relate?"
Posted by rayww on February 19, 2003, at 11:48:30
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » rayww, posted by Dena on February 19, 2003, at 9:30:34
This is my family
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp/and this is my belief:
http://www.providentliving.org/
Posted by rayww on February 20, 2003, at 9:20:45
In reply to family and belief » Dena, posted by rayww on February 19, 2003, at 11:48:30
> This is my family (sorry, my family link didn't work, but if you want to find your own family, open "search for ancestors" type in the name of a deceased grandparent)
> http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp/
>
> and this is my belief:
> http://www.providentliving.org/
>The reason I say this is my belief, is because I believe in self reliance and provident living, and this brand new website of the church has the potential to become a great resource, if you can just look past the parts you can't agree with, (the ones with direct instruction to members of the church, and of particular belief). Some articles referred to begin as sermons, etc.
PB rates high too :)'s
Posted by Dena on February 20, 2003, at 10:20:45
In reply to family and belief » Dena, posted by rayww on February 19, 2003, at 11:48:30
Hi Rayww. Thanks for sharing your testimony about your mother's healing, & also the links to your family & faith. Here I was thinking you might be Catholic! Ah, the assumptions we can make... I was raised as an "Army chapel Protestant". As a young child, my father, having no faith of his own, believed himself to be god. Once he surrendered to Jesus, we attended the chapel of whatever military station we were assigned to. I got a little bit of everything. As an adult, I gravitated toward nondenominational Protestant churches, especially charismatic ones. Still, I always felt that there was something shallow about the worship settings. I wondered why there were so many church splits, and why everyone was so angry at each other - where was the love? I can now see the hand of God behind the scenes through the years... He's now led us to a church that's got one major mission: to return to the historical, true Church that Jesus left in the care of his apostles 2000 years ago. The One Church that existed for 1000 years before anyone split off. It's amazing what I'm learning, what's been thrown away in the name of modernization. My faith has been challenged, stretched, & undergirded with an ancient foundation that was missing before.
Posted by rayww on February 21, 2003, at 14:26:09
In reply to Re: family and belief » rayww, posted by Dena on February 20, 2003, at 10:20:45
God leads everyone, so why don't we all end up in the same place? Life would be pretty unchallenged wouldn't it? There seems to be a place for everyone, and everyone's in their place. Bloom where you are planted. Nourish the seeds of faith within. I guess as we nourish our own seeds we interconnect, and once the whole world is interconnected we are in the same place. Cool.
Posted by Dena on February 22, 2003, at 18:30:45
In reply to Re: family and belief, posted by rayww on February 21, 2003, at 14:26:09
> God leads everyone, so why don't we all end up in the same place? Life would be pretty unchallenged wouldn't it? There seems to be a place for everyone, and everyone's in their place. Bloom where you are planted. Nourish the seeds of faith within. I guess as we nourish our own seeds we interconnect, and once the whole world is interconnected we are in the same place. Cool.
It sounds cool, but it's just not true. It's not God's plan. In order to fit in with His plan, we've got to do things His way. I mean, He's the Creator - we're just His creation, so even our best guesses & best attempts to "make it" fall pitifully short.He's perfect & we're not. We're all born separated from Him, unable to find a way to Him on our own. But because He loves us, each of us, He made a way for us to find Him. He became like us when He sent Jesus to live with us; Jesus is 100% God & 100% human at the same time (we don't get it, it's just one of those mysteries). He lived the perfect life we never could, & when He died, He overcame the power of sin and death.
Each of us then has a choice. We can either accept that we need a Way to God, & gratefully accept Jesus as That Way... Or we can refuse God's gift (of Jesus) & insist on doing things our own way.
But Jesus Himself said that He is the only way to the Father. So by refusing to accept Him as Savior, we stay in our state of separation from God. There is no other way to God. All other apparent ways are deceptions. If we stay in our separation from God until we die, we will continue to exist in eternal separation, also known as hell.
Jesus also said, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." (Matthew 7:13,14)
Jesus is the narrow gate - few find Him. All paths do not lead to God. The whole world will not interconnect, because most people will insist on finding their own way rather than surrendering to God through His only way: Jesus.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2003, at 20:02:46
In reply to Re: family and belief, posted by Dena on February 22, 2003, at 18:30:45
But there are a lot of religions in this world, and not all of them believe the same thing.
For that matter I don't believe that Jesus is the only path to God. That's just my belief. I'm not saying your belief is wrong, or right. I just have a different one.
And if you think I'm going to hell for it, that's your prerogative. But I'm not sure I appreciate hearing you say it. Or have I misinterpreted you?
Posted by Dena on February 22, 2003, at 20:31:38
In reply to Re: I understand that that is your belief » Dena, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2003, at 20:02:46
> But there are a lot of religions in this world, and not all of them believe the same thing.
>
> For that matter I don't believe that Jesus is the only path to God. That's just my belief. I'm not saying your belief is wrong, or right. I just have a different one.
>
> And if you think I'm going to hell for it, that's your prerogative. But I'm not sure I appreciate hearing you say it. Or have I misinterpreted you?
I'm not saying that you, or anyone in particular is going to hell. That judgment is for God alone. I'm only repeating what Jesus Himself said. He said, "I and the Father are One". He is claiming to be God. He also said, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." He, who claims to be God, is saying that He is the only way to the Father. If He is the only way, there is no other way. It doesn't matter whether I believe this, or you believe this, or if anyone believes this. Belief is beside the point. All other religions of the world say that you can ultimately believe anything you want to & still be OK. Only Jesus says that He is the only way. Either He is telling the truth, or He's insane (delusions of grandeur) or He's a liar.If you were the devil (enemy of God), and you wanted to drag as many people as possible into hell with you, what would be your tactic? You would convince people that they could believe anything they wanted to... that all roads would lead to God. then they would be content to avoid the Truth - that Jesus is the only way to God.
I'm not judging anyone. I'm just repeating the facts as God has already laid them out in the Bible. Anyone can read them for themselves. the truth isn't meant to offend - it's meant to enlighten.
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2003, at 12:26:05
In reply to Re: I understand that that is your belief, posted by Dena on February 22, 2003, at 20:31:38
I can actually think of other ways that the devil might lead people to perdition, if in fact there is a devil.
And one of those ways might be to instill intolerance towards others who don't believe the way we do, or who don't look the same way we do.
You don't have to look very far back in history to see horrendous acts committed in the name of God by those who don't have respect for the roads of others. In fact, you don't have to look back in history at all.
Go forward in thread:
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