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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 32. Go back in thread:
Posted by rayww on December 31, 2002, at 12:23:23
In reply to empower, posted by rayww on December 31, 2002, at 11:17:54
http://truehope.com/success.asp
I just read this and see that I am not alone.
Today is the anniversary of my father's death. It took me 30 years to process my grief because I blocked it away for so many. I think my grief was affected by my mental disorder in that I could easily transfer my feelings for him, into other people, and I could transfer my feelings for other people into my husband, and I survived on that addiction for as long as I could. but, that's another faith story.
anyway, happy anniversary dad. thanks for staying near.
Has anyone else found it difficult to feel the right emotions associated with loss and grief because of a mental disorder? Did you confuse those powerful emotions with faith and spirituality? How about laughing when you should feel sad, feeling driven to focus on things of least importance, while neglecting a crisis, etc.
Uhhh would anyone care to start a discussion on this? I think it is a topic that could belong here.
I would encourage others to begin posts here on the faith board that "you" feel would fit under the category of faith and spirituality. If Bob disagrees, he can move them, but let's first try to move Bob. (by the spirit :)
Posted by Miller on December 31, 2002, at 16:28:53
In reply to empower, posted by rayww on December 31, 2002, at 11:17:54
I can honestly say I care. I don't think you are writing to yourself here. I am a little intimidated by this board. It is certainly no fault of yours or anyone else.
It is very diffisult for people (me) that are so uncertain and weak in our beliefs to associate with those of you who are strong and faithful.
If you want a suggestion, I have one. Continue to post. POst often. Although I may not respond, I do read them. I am sure there are many others that do the same.
Thank you for the bravery it takes to continue to voice your opinions and beliefs.
-Miller
Posted by Dinah on December 31, 2002, at 17:36:25
In reply to empower, posted by rayww on December 31, 2002, at 11:17:54
You haven't killed it, Ray. It's never been very robust, but it will live for as long as Dr. Bob wants it to, I suspect. :)
I hope it isn't terribly rude to ask, but you refer to being bipolar and having very large swings. Are you bipolar I or II? I'm cyclothymic myself, down there towards the end of the spectrum.
Are you on nothing but the Empower program now? No other psych drugs? And it's working well for you?
I don't particularly see my faith as tied into my illness. Although I do get attacks of scrupulousness due to my obsessive compulsive disorder. And probably also due to that disorder, I sometimes am overcome by a sense of my personal unworthiness and sinfulness. But I don't see those things as parts of my faith as much as I see them as parts of my illness. And the better parts of my faith I don't see as being connected to my illness. My faith seems to be of the warm calm type that is very centering. As I've already said, it almost seems more belief than faith. I don't reach the heights of feeling the Spirit the way some people do.
Posted by rayww on December 31, 2002, at 21:12:36
In reply to Re: empower » rayww, posted by Dinah on December 31, 2002, at 17:36:25
> I hope it isn't terribly rude to ask, but you refer to being bipolar and having very large swings. Are you bipolar I or II? I'm cyclothymic myself, down there towards the end of the spectrum.
I wrote a story that tells how I perceive bipolar disorder as it is with me, and that's what I believe. I could email it to you if you're willing to read it. I'm not a label person. I'm in my mid 50's, but locked into a bit of an 18-year-old mentality from my father's death trauma. so, don't ask me what I am, I don't know. I just know I am. Did that answer your question? I would like to know, don't get me wrong. My GP Doc said I was bipolar.
>
> Are you on nothing but the Empower program now? No other psych drugs? And it's working well for you?Empower is all I do. I felt an episode coming on in the late summer, so i went along with empower as an experiment, and did well.
>
> I don't particularly see my faith as tied into my illness. Although I do get attacks of scrupulousness due to my obsessive compulsive disorder. And probably also due to that disorder, I sometimes am overcome by a sense of my personal unworthiness and sinfulness. But I don't see those things as parts of my faith as much as I see them as parts of my illness. And the better parts of my faith I don't see as being connected to my illness. My faith seems to be of the warm calm type that is very centering. As I've already said, it almost seems more belief than faith. I don't reach the heights of feeling the Spirit the way some people do.
>
>
You explain that very well, and I like your description of it.
Sometimes those spiritual highs can be polar extremes. I felt a high when my sister got her foot stuck in a mud puddle one day -- just because when I was a little girl on the farm following after my daddy, and got stuck in the mud, and called for him, he always came to my rescue. Seeing her step knee deep into some mud immediately took me back to a childhood moment, and I was swinging high in the spirit, thinking and feeling my dad was right there. this likely doesn't make sense. Who knows, maybe it was real? The most difficult thing for me with the diagnosis was wondering about the reality of my spirituality, and the validation of all my previous thoughts, words, ideas, writing. I felt like a new person with no real past, only a fake one, and even while I was feeling this way, I continued to serve in my family, community and church as usual, hiding it all inside.is it all right to babble like this here?
I don't have the highs now, you know where you get all caught up and fly away in it. But I definately feel support, and sustained in the things I choose to do (agency). This is kind of elementary, but when I spend time here on PB, I expect extra help to compensate for the time, and I usually receive it in an unseen sort of way. do you ever find that dinah?
Posted by rayww on December 31, 2002, at 21:16:48
In reply to Re: empower » rayww, posted by Miller on December 31, 2002, at 16:28:53
oh, I love you, and you're my very best friend!
Posted by Dinah on December 31, 2002, at 21:42:03
In reply to Re: empower » Dinah, posted by rayww on December 31, 2002, at 21:12:36
No, I'm afraid I never never find that. Perhaps it's one of those things you have to be expecting to find. Do you find posting to Babble to be draining to you that you need extra help? Or is it the time involved?
So you're a writer? I used to write as a child, but I found that as I grew older, my writing didn't. So I gave that part of me up. I still can access my emotions better through writing than in person.
I think it's great that you can access the joyful child you were. I'm sorry about your dad. Eighteen is young to lose a dad, especially under traumatic circumstances.
So discovering your illness made you question the reality of your faith as well as your personality? Part of my illness, or maybe part of my ego structure, depending on how you look at it, is that I have no real idea of who I am. Each day seems to stand on its own. I don't have a continuous sense of myself as a human being. Yet others seem to see me as being consistently me. So I don't question overly much if my illness has shaped who I am since I don't really know who I am. But I would think that it does, just as your experiences shape who you are. It doesn't make it any less you. Were you able to talk to your bishop about any of your confusion when you were diagnosed? My pastor isn't really someone that I can see myself confiding in, unfortunately. I wrestle with faith issues on my own mainly. Although I haven't wrestled much in recent years.
I do think I remember reading that you felt less spiritual while on meds? Was that part of your decision to discontinue them?
I'm not sure I understand that definition of the word "agency". I remember agency as being related to free will. Have I remembered that one incorrectly?
Posted by rayww on January 1, 2003, at 3:29:51
In reply to Re: empower » rayww, posted by Dinah on December 31, 2002, at 21:42:03
You have asked some good questions, and since I'm sitting down here anyway at 2:00 am, wishing you a happy new year in my sleep........
> Do you find posting to Babble to be draining to you that you need extra help? Or is it the time involved?
Don't ask me to sit down at my computer because I might not get back up again for a long time. No, I don't find being here draining. I'm not sure you understood the extra help I was meaning, and I wouldn't be able to explain it here. This *is* the babble place, right?
> So discovering your illness made you question the reality of your faith as well as your personality? Part of my illness, or maybe part of my ego structure, depending on how you look at it, is that I have no real idea of who I am. Each day seems to stand on its own. I don't have a continuous sense of myself as a human being. Yet others seem to see me as being consistently me.
By just stating what you did, it shows you do know quite a lot about yourself. Establishing personal values sometimes takes a lifetime to work out. Our values determine who we are, because just as we are what we eat, we are also what we do. When we swing from one end of the value spectrum to the other, how can we possibly know who we really are? It's tough. Even though I have faith that with each adversity comes also an escape, there are certain things I cling to in order to not fall off the swing.
> So I don't question overly much if my illness has shaped who I am since I don't really know who I am. But I would think that it does, just as your experiences shape who you are. It doesn't make it any less you. Were you able to talk to your bishop about any of your confusion when you were diagnosed?
No, but my Dr. was another bishop and I really liked his way of combining spiritual understanding with therapy. He taught me a lot of concepts that made me feel better about myself.
My pastor isn't really someone that I can see myself confiding in, unfortunately. I wrestle with faith issues on my own mainly. Although I haven't wrestled much in recent years.
>There's someone for everyone. The disorders take the fight out of you.
> I do think I remember reading that you felt less spiritual while on meds? Was that part of your decision to discontinue them?A very small part.
>
> I'm not sure I understand that definition of the word "agency". I remember agency as being related to free will. Have I remembered that one incorrectly?
>Agency is a big word. We are taught correct principles, then we govern ourselves. Agency has responsibility and consequenses. The opposite of agency is force. Remember the story?ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd oops, just fell asleep. happy New Year.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2003, at 5:05:14
In reply to Re: empower, posted by rayww on January 1, 2003, at 3:29:51
Happy New Year to you too. And see, I'm trying to make the Faith board work for me.
I think I remember the story. The one about the pre-existence. Satan wanting to force people to be good, while God preferred free will?
Ok, I think I understand now. You were referring to the word "choice" when you said agency. I was confused and thought you meant you were referring to being sustained when you said agency.
Hey, maybe I was paying attention in Sunday School and Primary. :)
Posted by Phil on January 1, 2003, at 20:35:19
In reply to empower, posted by rayww on December 31, 2002, at 11:17:54
Always check with your doctor before stopping or starting any medications or other therapies.
How is that...
Posted by rayww on January 2, 2003, at 16:34:25
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer, posted by Phil on January 1, 2003, at 20:35:19
....and, who is the doctor?
Posted by rayww on January 2, 2003, at 16:40:43
In reply to Re: empower » rayww, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2003, at 5:05:14
I think you hit the nail on the head about the faith board when you said you were trying to make it work for you. The faith board should work for the people, not the other way around. When the people beginning working for the faith board Uncle Bob becomes the employeer. When the faith board works for the people he is the server. Cool thought eh.
Posted by rayww on January 2, 2003, at 16:52:21
In reply to Re: empower » Dinah, posted by rayww on January 2, 2003, at 16:40:43
The same thought could be applied to Christ and the church. Christ is our server. He enables us to serve others through the church. Of course, when I refer to the church, I am thinking my church, and you would be thinking your church, and your Christ. (disclaimer)
Posted by Phil on January 2, 2003, at 18:53:22
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer » Phil, posted by rayww on January 2, 2003, at 16:34:25
It is always good to see if your doctor will endorse the treatment and monitor your progress.
If they say no, you can go it alone but it would be irresponsible of me to not do a disclaimer.There are a lot of people reading what's said here and I worry that someone, especially if they are recently diagnosed, will throw their meds away and go to a treatment that has no real studies to back it up. It works for you and that is great but what if it doesn't work for someone?
BTW, I'm not sure what you mean by your question?
Phil
Posted by rayww on January 4, 2003, at 10:23:50
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer, posted by Phil on January 2, 2003, at 18:53:22
> It is always good to see if your doctor will endorse the treatment and monitor your progress.
It is illegal to post on the box of any herbal that it is a remedy for:.......... or that it specifically helps this or that. Therefore, a doctor cannot prescribe it. He has approved and has said he knows many who have been helped, some who have not noticed any difference, but none whom it has hurt.
> If they say no, you can go it alone but it would be irresponsible of me to not do a disclaimer.
Likewise, I would also disclaim pot as an alternative to a high in reality. As was mentioned in a previous post, drugs can fake a spiritual elevation in the mind, but that is not to say there is no such thing as the real one.
>
> There are a lot of people reading what's said here and I worry that someone, especially if they are recently diagnosed, will throw their meds away and go to a treatment that has no real studies to back it up. It works for you and that is great but what if it doesn't work for someone?
>You don't throw your meds away. You can tell when it is time to decrease them by the way you begin to feel. I wonder who reads here. I wonder if there are people out there who can't afford the luxury of therapy or medicine, who have to rely on us. Not everyone has a PHD or knows how to express themselves at the computer. I have no credits to my name in the professional realm, but I give myself credit for life long learning.
> BTW, I'm not sure what you mean by your question?
>
>Oh? Then, I suppose you have never considered the Master Physician a Doctor? Most people here think that God is real, not just some kind of imaginary people-grouper.
Answers should be more simple than complicated. Help should be more free and easy to come by, than take all of our money and be hard to find. Life should go smooth, and not always get hung up on ruts and bumps. We should be able to sail smoothly over obstacles. It should be, could be, but isn't always. Just as drugs can bring a temporary relief to emotional pain, our heads can also create pain. There is pain in the perception, fear in the unknown.
How high did you stretch this morning? When we fail to stretch it becomes easier to slump. I'm slumping today, but Christmas always over-stretches us, so to slump in January is acceptable.
To all the readers who read but don't post, I love you, happy new year, may each day be better than the last, may you continue to learn. Love rayww. (did you read that right ?:)
Posted by Phil on January 4, 2003, at 12:52:17
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer, posted by rayww on January 4, 2003, at 10:23:50
> > It is always good to see if your doctor will endorse the treatment and monitor your progress.
>
> It is illegal to post on the box of any herbal that it is a remedy for:.......... or that it specifically helps this or that. Therefore, a doctor cannot prescribe it.I asked if he would monitor your progress. I ran a pharmacy for 7 years so I know the rules as far as what a doc can or can't do.
> > If they say no, you can go it alone but it would be irresponsible of me to not do a disclaimer.
>
> Likewise, I would also disclaim pot as an alternative to a high in reality. As was mentioned in a previous post, drugs can fake a spiritual elevation in the mind, but that is not to say there is no such thing as the real one.
>
> > No argument there.
> > There are a lot of people reading what's said here and I worry that someone, especially if they are recently diagnosed, will throw their meds away and go to a treatment that has no real studies to back it up. It works for you and that is great but what if it doesn't work for someone?
> >
>
> You don't throw your meds away. You can tell when it is time to decrease them by the way you begin to feel.>>Wrong! Never ever stop meds without your doctor saying he thinks you're ready. Being on this board daily for 4 years + 20 years on these drugs, the patient should not make that decision.
Several times a week, people come on this board saying they are having severe withdrawal cause they quit their meds cold turkey thinking they were better. They don't check with their doctor.
Never stop any med w/o seeing your doctor. Never represent yourself in court.> > BTW, I'm not sure what you mean by your question?
I'm a Christian and God made doctors to help with ailments. I think Billy Graham is very respected by many, myself included. When Dr. Graham gets sick, he goes to his doctor. He recommends it to others. The Pope sees doctors.
>
> Answers should be more simple than complicated. Help should be more free and easy to come by, than take all of our money and be hard to find. Life should go smooth, and not always get hung up on ruts and bumps. We should be able to sail smoothly over obstacles. It should be, could be, but isn't always. Just as drugs can bring a temporary relief to emotional pain, our heads can also create pain. There is pain in the perception, fear in the unknown.>>Bad perception and fear are what lands many of us here.
>
> How high did you stretch this morning? When we fail to stretch it becomes easier to slump. I'm slumping today, but Christmas always over-stretches us, so to slump in January is acceptable.Uh, okay. I don't slump.
> To all the readers who read but don't post, I love you, happy new year, may each day be better than the last, may you continue to learn. Love rayww. (did you read that right ?:)I can read just fine, thank you. I would remind everyone to put your faith in your God but go see your doctor before adjusting doses, etc. 20 years ago, I learned a hard lesson on that.
Meds fool you. You get back up to speed so you quit the meds, toss em out. Read PB, it's almost daily that someone does a version of that scenario.
If God tells you to stop your meds, get a second opinion. He'll understand.
Phil
Posted by rayww on January 6, 2003, at 2:01:24
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer, posted by Phil on January 4, 2003, at 12:52:17
> > Love rayww. (did you read that right :)
>
> I can read just fine, thank you. I would remind everyone to put your faith in your God but go see your doctor before adjusting doses, etc. 20 years ago, I learned a hard lesson on that.Angels of mercy are usually other people, sent to us by God, or placed in our path. I think we agree on these issues.
>
> Meds fool you. You get back up to speed so you quit the meds, toss em out. Read PB, it's almost daily that someone does a version of that scenario.Right. But for me: I maintain a nice level as long as I take my supplements on time and don't skip a day. When I get up and start doing books, and don't eat breakfast, lunch, dinner, or take my pills, I will spend a couple of days with the old symptoms, and start writing things I wish I hadn't, and doing things wrong, ignoring people I love, wishing to be left alone, wallowing in mess, self sabatoge things. I don't think you care, but the supplements do seem to be working "for" me, not me for them. The supplements work fast, and don't have to build up for months before you can feel a difference.
>
> If God tells you to stop your meds, get a second opinion. He'll understand.You're reacting to my reaction.
Posted by Phil on January 6, 2003, at 8:14:29
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer » Phil, posted by rayww on January 2, 2003, at 16:34:25
Posted by Phil on January 6, 2003, at 8:21:42
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer » Phil, posted by rayww on January 2, 2003, at 16:34:25
What would you say is the greatest of all sins, in God's eyes?
Posted by rayww on January 6, 2003, at 10:36:15
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer » rayww, posted by Phil on January 6, 2003, at 8:21:42
> What would you say is the greatest of all sins, in God's eyes?
Betrayal
It is "possible" through the atonement of Jesus Christ to be forgiven of all sins except one, and unless you have made covenants in the holy spirit of promise, you cannot even commit that sin.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22holy+spirit+of+promise%22&search.x=23&search.y=9In the gospel of Jesus Christ, faith and repentance is fundamental. Daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, continual. In the weekly ordinance of sacrament the serious partaker is completely forgiven of all sins in that weekly renewal of covenants.
http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=%22covenant%22&search.x=27&search.y=7
Posted by Phil on January 6, 2003, at 12:39:40
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer, posted by rayww on January 6, 2003, at 10:36:15
According to C.S. Lewis: Pride. He calls it the complete anti-God state of mind. It leads to all other sins.
Someone sees a friends new girlfriend and decides he wants her. Not because he feels anything special for her, he just wants to snub his friend.
It's okay to be proud of your accomplishments but if you worked hard to think you are now something special and above it all, not good.
If you are proud of your son's grades, that's different. Unless you go to your neighbor and brag about it when you know his son is struggling.
Since reading "Mere Christianity", I've never seen the world quite the same. When Charles Colson was given a copy by a friend, the former Watergate criminal became a priest. The chapter on pride was what hit him.
Many days, especially when I was younger, I had moments in my mind when I thought I was hot stuff. Felt good-ego city. I later learned that those were times I was at my worst in God's eyes.
C.S. Lewis says it waaay better than I can but, no matter your faith, that skinny little book can teach people a lot.
Just passing it on, thought you might enjoy it.
I've heard his book, "The Four Loves" is even better. And his childrens books are pretty special too.Phil
Posted by rayww on January 6, 2003, at 13:25:56
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer » rayww, posted by Phil on January 6, 2003, at 12:39:40
you are so right!
Posted by Noa on January 6, 2003, at 14:34:23
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer » Phil, posted by rayww on January 6, 2003, at 13:25:56
This thread has been interesting to read.
Posted by rayww on January 8, 2003, at 9:33:18
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer » rayww, posted by Phil on January 6, 2003, at 12:39:40
Thanks for suggesting the books. I will definately get them. C.S. Lewis is the most quoted Christian in mormon sermons too. One such, a classic now in the church on pride, is (BTW, a very mormon sermon given as a warning to our people)
This is the C.S. Lewis quote used in that sermon, and I have never forgotten it:"The proud make every man their adversary by pitting their intellects, opinions, works, wealth, talents, or any other worldly measuring device against others. In the words of C. S. Lewis: "Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. … It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone." (Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan, 1952, pp. 109-10.)"
Posted by junie on January 8, 2003, at 13:46:16
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer » rayww, posted by Phil on January 6, 2003, at 12:39:40
Enjoyed the thread--I'm new, I'm BP II. I think CS Lewis must be the "official author of the 'faith' board. I have a copy of Mere Christianity in my desk drawer at work!
Posted by rayww on January 8, 2003, at 15:20:30
In reply to Re: empower: Disclaimer » rayww, posted by Phil on January 6, 2003, at 12:39:40
I have never seen such a long link. The first one didn't connect, but this one should. If mormon culture offends you, please avoid. I think Phil was right when he labelled pride as the greatest sin in God's eyes, because it is a universal sin, one that affects us all. If we don't understand the scriptural meaning of pride, and how it differs from the worldly meaning, a study of religious texts would be appropriate.
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