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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2004, at 7:43:24
Has anyone else read Alice Miller's "The Drama of the Gifted Child"? It was recommended to me as both my parents are quite narcissistic, which has had quite an impact on me. The book seems a bit harsh, although I just started it.
Any thoughts?
gg
Posted by noa on January 31, 2004, at 14:22:55
In reply to Just started The Drama of the Gifted Child, posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2004, at 7:43:24
I read it a LONG time ago, and found it interesting and helpful--the idea of a "false self". But I think if I were to read it again today, I'd see it in the context of its time and the author's psychoanalytic perspective--ie, as a useful and interesting piece of a puzzle, but just a piece in a puzzle that now includes a lot more knowledge about all of the bio-psycho-social aspects of mental disorders.
But I think that she writes in a way that is very empathic toward people who grew up with narcisistic parents, and this can be really helpful, and what she offers does help to shed light on how this can lead to our not knowing our real selves. Enjoy.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2004, at 15:54:34
In reply to Re: Just started The Drama of the Gifted Child » gardenergirl, posted by noa on January 31, 2004, at 14:22:55
Posted by 64Bowtie on February 1, 2004, at 1:39:57
In reply to Just started The Drama of the Gifted Child, posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2004, at 7:43:24
Hi, gg,
I have a naive question: how did two narcissistics find each other and get along long enough to have a child? Did I mention my question was naive?
I assume that true Sociopaths and true Narcissistics are "icons of the unreachable" for therapy and recovery practices. Am I deluded about this? Sadly, you were given a full dose of information regarding that affliction of the infinitely self-centered.
I hope your "emotional limp" you walk with isn't as noticeable as mine.
Rod
Posted by EscherDementian on February 1, 2004, at 4:30:21
In reply to Re:Re:Icons » gardenergirl, posted by 64Bowtie on February 1, 2004, at 1:39:57
Your posts and discussion of "The Drama..." had me intrigued. So i've just put a hold on it through my library. Will begin reading it too. Thanks
i once cruised Amazon's selection of books re the dilemma of highly sensitive or gifted children parented by a BP/narcissist - *whew* their list was vast about the disorder(s) (BP Narcissist) and i became a bit overwhelmed at the time. It seemed that i found a couple of interesting titles with regard to the parent/offspring dynamic, but did not purchase anything - promising myself to peruse next time i was in a good bookstore.
Thank you for the footwork & heads-up, gg, noa & rod ~
Please continue to post about it?Escher
Posted by gardenergirl on February 1, 2004, at 11:03:33
In reply to Re:Re:Icons » gardenergirl, posted by 64Bowtie on February 1, 2004, at 1:39:57
> Hi, gg,
>
> I have a naive question: how did two narcissistics find each other and get along long enough to have a child? Did I mention my question was naive?My parents actually were married for just over 20 years and had three kids. Dad got his needs met through work and alcohol. He was a sales engineer. Mom got her needs met through the kids, and thus, the emotional limp you mentioned. It's actually getting better through psychodynamic psychotherapy. Corrective emotional experiences and parental transferences and all. And it became inherently more obvious to me what I have missed all these years when my parents have not acknowleged my Master's degree or my recent passing of my clinical competency exam. I assume when I defend my dissertation, there will be a similar void. Now I look to others I can count on and inside for validation.
> I assume that true Sociopaths and true Narcissistics are "icons of the unreachable" for therapy and recovery practices. Am I deluded about this?
I would agree with you about true sociopaths that they are mostly unreachable. I'm not sure about true narcissists. I suppose if you initially feed their needs while gently confronting, especially if there is a relationship problem they are facing, you could convince them to change themselves instead of changing the other partner. But it would be very difficult. It would have to take a very savvy and experienced, not to mention patient T to get there.
>Sadly, you were given a full dose of information regarding that affliction of the infinitely self-centered.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
>
> I hope your "emotional limp" you walk with isn't as noticeable as mine.I wish that neither of us had a limp.
Take care,
gg
>
Posted by gardenergirl on February 1, 2004, at 11:13:57
In reply to Re: The Drama of the Gifted Child, posted by EscherDementian on February 1, 2004, at 4:30:21
Escher,
Yes, I would agree that there is a lot out there. I also purchased a book about the gifted adult, "The Gifted Adult: A Revolutionary Guide for Liberateing Everyday Genius" by Mary-Elaine Jacobsen, which seems to be similar to others about high sensitivity traits. It's by my bedside with a ton of other stuff I want to read someday. I also have two books on procrastination there which I haven't read. How ironic is that? (I admit, my addiction is buying books, drives my husband crazy.) Good for you for going through the library. Much smarter!When you were looking for books on highly sensitive children, did you find Elaine Aron's "The Highly Sensitive Person: How to Thrive when the World Overwhelms You"? This an *excellent* book for reframing the trait of sensitivity into a strength and a gift rather than a weakness that society seems to view it as. I believe she also wrote a book about parenting the highly sensitive child.
I highly recommend Elaine Aron's books. "The Highly Sensitive Person" feels like the book of "me".
Take care,
gg
Posted by badhaircut on February 1, 2004, at 16:56:26
In reply to Just started The Drama of the Gifted Child, posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2004, at 7:43:24
gardenergirl--
It's been a while since I read Miller's books, so I bet I'm confusing things in her later works with 'Drama'. The 'Drama' edition currently sold, however, is a 1997 revision that -- as I understand it -- she changed to fit better with her later, more strident views. She went so far as telling people in the early 1990s not to read 'Drama' because her views had changed so much. So it may depend on which edition you get.
I was permanently deepened by 'Drama' (1981 translation). It helped me become aware or remember both how easy it is to hurt a child's feelings AND how easy it is to empathize and support a child emotionally. For that reason I would recommend excerpts of it to every new parent.
On the whole, however, my main impression of Miller's later work was that she *became* the domineering, narcissistic, critical mother described in her books. She brooks no dissent! Views contrary to hers are severely dismissed, no matter what controlled evidence backs them up. If people say their own lives are better due to ignoring rather than highlighting earlier misfortunes, she just says they're wrong. Her own evidence, of course, is limited to case reports, art criticism, and her own emotional experience.
But her assertions of incontrovertible insight were weakened, for me, by the fact at a couple different points in the last 25 years she's made declarations along the lines of "I thought I was cured before but I was so self-deluded and wrong. NOW I'm cured and see the ONLY way to be whole." How many times can a professional psychotherapy writer publish such statements before she's suspected of a general lack of self-insight?
The disapproving tone she takes toward psychoanalysis I found frankly bewildering, since all of her work is IMO psychoanalytic: she focuses on the repressed Unconscious, on cathartic insight, and on the continuing control of adult emotions by early (VERY early) childhood experience. She also out-Freuds Freud in attributing late-life experiences (like Freud's jaw cancer) to childhood emotions (rather than, say, his 50 years of cigar smoking).
I was taken aback by Miller's 1986 foreword to J. Konrad Stettbacher's "Making Sense of Suffering." It struck me as both a cry for help and a sad example of groveling devotion -- by Miller to Stettbacher (who lacks her talent, charm, and sharp mind).
Just some top-o'-the-head thoughts. I'm glad you're reading Miller. I don't think she should be ignored by clinical psych students. When you're done, I'd really like to know what you think of 'Drama' (and which edition you read).
-bhc
PS: Thanks for bringing up a psych book on PB-Books! :-)
Posted by gardenergirl on February 1, 2004, at 18:36:09
In reply to Re: Just started The Drama of the Gifted Child » gardenergirl, posted by badhaircut on February 1, 2004, at 16:56:26
Thanks for the context. I will definitely keep it in mind while I am reading. I've only had a chance to read the first couple chapters, and already it seems pretty harsh compared to others I've read.
No problem about the psych. book. Between my classes and my own journey right now, it seems that's all I get to read. Don't even get to look at the paper much anymore except the funnies.
BTW, love your name!
I'll post more,
gg
Posted by EscherDementian on February 2, 2004, at 4:43:05
In reply to Re: The Drama of the Gifted Child » EscherDementian, posted by gardenergirl on February 1, 2004, at 11:13:57
Thanks, gg :)
> I also have two books on procrastination there which I haven't read. How ironic is that?
>
LOL
&
Have you been peeking at my side of the bed, too?
> When you were looking for books on highly sensitive children, did you find Elaine Aron's "The Highly Sensitive Person: How to Thrive when the World Overwhelms You"?
>
> I highly recommend Elaine Aron's books. "The Highly Sensitive Person" feels like the book of "me".Yes, i have read these by Elaine Aron... and recommended them, too :)
More specifically, i want to learn more about the dynamics between a narcissist BPD mother <--> a gifted/sensitive child ...
(Beyond simply that it is a tragic wounding, of course).!!!Congratulations on your successes!!!
i sure do know the feeling of the 'parental void' you mentioned. *sigh* And an interesting parallel to your 'limp' too; among my first poems (elementry school) i referred to myself as "an emotional cripple"...Keep us posted re your read!
Escher
Posted by 64Bowtie on February 2, 2004, at 19:52:44
In reply to Re:Icons » 64Bowtie, posted by gardenergirl on February 1, 2004, at 11:03:33
<Sadly, you were given a full dose of information regarding that affliction of the infinitely self-centered.
>I'm not sure what you mean by this.
<...and got both barrels.....
<My bias comes from the "Echo and Narcissis" fable, where no matter how many were looking over his shoulder, Narcissis could see only his own reflexion in the pond. Likewise, all could yell but Echo could only hear the rebound of his own voice. Infinite self-centeredness, I'd say.
Rod
PS:go czek out http://photos.yahoo.com/dr_rod1
Posted by gardenergirl on February 2, 2004, at 20:32:06
In reply to I consider Nars~tics infinitely self-centered » gardenergirl, posted by 64Bowtie on February 2, 2004, at 19:52:44
Rod,
There are no pics on your site.Also, I am presuming your post suggests that I got double barreled dose of narcissistic parents because both my parents were?
If so, that would be correct, sir. If not, then I am hopelessly lost in trying to understand your posts.
But thanks,
gg
Posted by shortelise on February 7, 2004, at 23:32:02
In reply to Just started The Drama of the Gifted Child, posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2004, at 7:43:24
After I'd been in therapy for about a year, my psychiatrist recommended I read this book.
I saw myself in it again and again, it helped immensely.
Now that I am coming to the end of therapy four years later, I thank you for reminding about it! I think I need to reread it.
Shorte
Posted by gardenergirl on February 14, 2004, at 11:09:40
In reply to Re:Re:Icons » gardenergirl, posted by 64Bowtie on February 1, 2004, at 1:39:57
> Hi, gg,
>
> I have a naive question: how did two narcissistics find each other and get along long enough to have a child? Did I mention my question was naive?
>
>I was thinking some more about your question. The best answer I can come up with is this. Slim pickin's and alcohol. Mom and Dad met up in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Lots of large families there, but you didn't want to marry your cousin. :)
Hope all is well with you. Haven't heard from you in awhile.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on January 1, 2005, at 19:45:09
In reply to Re:Re:Icons » 64Bowtie, posted by gardenergirl on February 14, 2004, at 11:09:40
I actually had to startreading "The Drama of the Gifted Child" from the beginning again, since it has been so long since I started this book. Gosh, almost a year. Initially, when I read the beginning, I thought it was too harsh. Perhaps I didn't finish it because I wasn't ready at the time. This time through, it resonated much more with me. I've actually been talking to my mom a bit about what her upbringing was like, trying to speculate how this might have affected her and what she still has to work on today. That might give me insight into what role I play in that. But of course it's so hard to look objectively at family.
I would recommend this book, to stimulate thought and to add a perspective in looking at our true versus ideal or false selves. I don't know that I buy everything she says.
Definitely stimulated a lot for therapy sessions, too.
gg
Posted by Susan47 on February 23, 2005, at 19:25:59
In reply to Finally finished The Drama of the Gifted Child, posted by gardenergirl on January 1, 2005, at 19:45:09
I bought everything she said, because I felt it as myself. She writes truthfully.
Posted by gardenergirl on February 24, 2005, at 19:38:22
In reply to Re: Finally finished The Drama of the Gifted Child, posted by Susan47 on February 23, 2005, at 19:25:59
I agree. It took me a bit of time to be ready to hear her message, but when I was, it resonated deeply.
gg
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