![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 43. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sigismund on September 2, 2010, at 19:49:27
Years ago I did a self assessment questionnaire in "Between Heaven and Earth. A guide to Chinese Medicine".
The results going round were.......
Fire (heart) 35
Earth (spleen) 13
Metal (lung) -4
Water (kidney) 32
Wood (liver) -47which must suggest lack of harmony (unsurprisingly) a f*ck*d liver system and low kidney energy. Fire, being overdominant and unrestrained by water, leads to insomnia etc etc etc. perhaps the liver could do with some tonification? Bupleurum?
Is it possible to say anything intelligent about this?
A quote from the relevant passage is interesting, mentioning confusion about boundaries, merging with surroundings, difficulty knowing who you are, and mentions this as being reflective of a distorted heart/lung relationship, which, you can observe above, is.........what does the f*ck*ng liver system do anyway? I'm going to have to read and understand this wretched book.
Posted by morgan miller on September 3, 2010, at 0:54:34
In reply to TCM, posted by sigismund on September 2, 2010, at 19:49:27
Lol
I think Hombre is the one to weigh in on this.
As far a the liver is concerned, I do think it plays a major role in the way we feel and function.
Posted by Hombre on September 3, 2010, at 1:46:19
In reply to TCM, posted by sigismund on September 2, 2010, at 19:49:27
Take all this with a grain of salt...
One of the liver's roles is to spread/distribute qi and maintain the smooth flow of qi. When we get angry or frustrated or are not allowed to express our emotions and creativity, it's very easy for liver qi to stagnate. This is supposed to cause a feeling of heaviness or tightness in the chest and ribs. I remember being verbally abused as a teen and the feeling was just this heavy, sinking feeling in my chest that just drained me of energy.
When liver qi gets stuck, the 'pressure' builds and heat can result. The heat tends to flare up and cause angry outbursts or irritability, dry, red eyes or vision changes. This excess heat can burn up the 'yin' of the liver and lead to liver yin deficiency. The liver is closely related to the kidneys and injury to the liver yin could also hurt the kidney yin. More on the kidneys later.
Mentally and emotionally, they say the liver is responsible for creative expression and long-term planning. The flip side of this would be a state of liver imbalance with a tendency to be controlling and to try to control others.
The liver can also attack the spleen and hurt digestion. That's why you shouldn't sit down to a meal when you are upset.
The sinews and ligaments are associated with the liver. Poor liver function may result in pain, loss of elasticity and other problems with soft tissue.
That's about all I know about the liver. I think I've felt the liver stagnation, and when I used to have serious insomnia every night and stay up late, a TCM doctor was able to tell from my pulse that I had this tendency to stay up too late.
The kidneys are the root of the body in terms of energy and development. In my experience a weakness of the kidneys results in severe fatigue. I tend to suffer deficient kidney yang, which means I tend to have low energy, low drive, low willpower, and a burnt out feeling. But taking too many warm/hot tonic herbs will only cause the flame to burn brighter without replenishing the fuel. You may get some energy in the short term, but it doesn't last. Supplementing kidney yin and yang may be necessary and will gradually replenish one's energy reserves.
The kidney's also store Jing, or essence, which is like your most precious, concentrated form of energy. In times of crisis or severe overwork/stress, you dip into the kidney Jing for energy. Chronic stress and overexertion will exhaust Jing and lead to a severe form of exhaustion and burnout.
The kidney house the Will, and when healthy the person will have the drive to make plans and follow through. When the kidneys are weak, one may feel sort of sluggish and cold, slow to get started and unable to really turn thoughts into action. Anxiety and fear may also be present.
I believe antidepressants and stimulants tend to exhaust kidney energy. Even when I was getting some energy from effexor I felt very jittery and didn't feel very calm at all. Addressing the kidney issue has really helped with drive and anxiety. In fact, unless I overindulge in caffeine and push myself I don't get anxiety. Supplementing the kidneys also helps with the urinary hesitance and sexual issues related to antidepressant use.
The spleen is very important because of its role in transforming food and drink into the raw materials for the body's energy. Any disturbance in the spleen will cause an overall decrease in energy. One may eat good food, but if the body cannot properly break down and absorb nutrients, there isn't enough fuel for the body.
Too much cold food and drink will harm the spleen. Over or under-eating will also hurt the spleen. Eating a wide variety of cooked foods on a regular schedule is good for maintaining a healthy digestion. A weak spleen will manifest as diarrhea, or constipation alternating with diarrhea, characterized by water, loose stool with unidigested food. The spleen likes to stay 'dry'. It tends to get damp which can lead to bloating and tiredness after eating. The spleen is also key to blood formation. A weak spleen can lead to headaches, fatigue, and other symptoms that one can associate with deficient blood, especially to the brain.
The spleen is associated with the muscles. A healthy spleen will support strong muscles. Overwork and too much mental activity can hurt the spleen. The spleen is also associated with learning and memory. Learning and memory are sort of akin to eating and digestion. A weak spleen may lead to overthinking and overworrying, a common symptom of depression.
The heart is important because it houses the shen/spirit. Shen is nothing more mysterious than the sparkle in a healthy person's eyes. They say when the the blood is deficient the shen cannot find its home in the heart. This leads to insomnia, anxiety, dream-disturbed sleep, that sort of cluster of symptoms. Supplementing heart yin can help. I don't know as much about this aspect of the body to be honest, but lately I am experimenting with herbs that calm and replenish yin to help with agitated sleep and night sweats. I take seroquel purely for sleep and anxiety, and I'm starting to think that it is dulling my emotions and making me sluggish. There is a formula called Tian Wang Bu Xin Wan/Emperor's Teapills. I've only been taking it for a week or so, but I've been able to decrease my seroquel dose in half at night with no major affects on sleep. Previous attempts to decrease seroquel had me waking up too early feeling very tense.
On the whole, any practical advice for health will help the body to maintain a good homeostasis. Going to bed early, eating proper food regularly, getting some light exercise and trying to avoid stress and frustration will go a long way towards letting the body do its thing.
Posted by Hombre on September 3, 2010, at 1:54:42
In reply to TCM, posted by sigismund on September 2, 2010, at 19:49:27
Lungs are related to the large intestine. Obviously the lungs are associated with taking in oxygen and creating energy. The lungs have to do with taking in, and the large intestine have to do with letting go, both physically and psycho-emotionally.
In my experience, pooing daily is the key to health and happiness. Seriously. My AD causes constipation, and on a day I don't go in the morning I just feel off and tired. I take mag citrate at night and along with its actions on relaxation and energy, it helps move things along. Too much heat and overall deficient yin will obviously cause dehydration and dry out the stools. There are formulas for constipation that lubricate the intestines and help peristalsis. I haven't tried them yet. I do want to try Triphala, which is a natural cleanser. I'll try to remember to look for it next time I go to Little India.
Posted by Phillipa on September 3, 2010, at 10:39:48
In reply to Re: TCM, posted by Hombre on September 3, 2010, at 1:54:42
Seriously what about those who have had to have their spleens removed due to mostly trauma car accidents etc. What changes when you do not have a spleen my nephew doesn't Phillipa
Posted by Lao Tzu on September 3, 2010, at 14:00:56
In reply to TCM, posted by sigismund on September 2, 2010, at 19:49:27
Took my first dose of Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan today. Noticed that it felt very agreeable. However, I am such a novice at TCM. I really don't know what I'm doing. And there are so many formulas. In your opinion, is taking herbs in a formula more beneficial than trying individual herbs. I say this because I usually strike out when it comes to using individual herbs. I think I always miss the mark when I focus on one particular herb. That strategy just doesn't work well for me. My mental illness is very severe. Psychosis. No single herb works well. I'm just wondering if the Chinese formulas will be more beneficial in regards to mood and depression. I made the decision to try the formula because I believe something is lacking in my regimen. I am taking the Holy Basil, but it just isn't enough. I've tried a whole host of individual herbs, but alone they don't address my problems. You said to try a couple of different formulas. I do like the Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan, but is it a formula that indirectly effects mood over time? Should I be wary of trying certain formulas since I am on Risperdal, zoloft, and lamictal? Which ones would you stay away from? I realize you take medication as well and that you have benefitted from TCM. You inspired me to give it a try. I know it won't cure all of my problems, but in your own experience, can you say your prognosis is better because of TCM, taking into consideration that you also receive benefits from medication?
Is there any validity or proof that combining Eastern medicine with Western medicine results in greater benefits than either alone? Is this a myth or is there solid evidence? Also, can you recommend any good books I can buy on the subject of TCM? I know so little about it. Thanks for all your input. You definitely peaked my interest, and I hope this is a step in the right direction.Lao
Posted by sigismund on September 3, 2010, at 17:28:13
In reply to Re: TCM, posted by Hombre on September 3, 2010, at 1:46:19
Thanks for all your stuff on TCM.
I must read your posts/links from a while back....the Shen sequence or something, wasn't it?
Posted by Hombre on September 4, 2010, at 0:23:31
In reply to Re: TCM » Hombre, posted by Phillipa on September 3, 2010, at 10:39:48
> Seriously what about those who have had to have their spleens removed due to mostly trauma car accidents etc. What changes when you do not have a spleen my nephew doesn't Phillipa
The ancient Chinese, in addition to lacking the scientific knowledge we now have, did not believe in dissecting bodies. Also, doctors were hired to keep people healthy. If the got sick, that was considered a failure. The imperial doctors had the difficult task of keeping the royal family healthy. If they failed, they were executed.
What resulted was an exquisite sensitivity to the body's physiological functions by using such methods as pulse diagnosis, observing the tongue, the face, the eyes, detecting odors, the sound and quality of the voice, and listening to what the person spoke about. I'm sure there were many more methods that have slowly been lost over time due to the "modernization" of Chinese medicine after the cultural revolution. From the very beginning, the emotions and the spirit of the person were also considered part and parcel of the whole person and his health.
Although the ancients had some knowledge of basic anatomy and anything else that might have been revealed through battelfield injuries and accidents, they had to use their imaginations to put together the rest. Based on the Daoist beliefs that the body was a microcosm of the universe, various theories were introduced to explain what was going on. There are a lot of allusions to nature and other metaphors incorporating things like the 5 elements of nature and even viewing the body as a cooperative group, with certain functions acting as governors and others the workers. While we now know much more about the details of the body's anatomy and physiology, we've lost the idea of seeing everything as whole working together.
The organs in Chinese medicine really refer to sets of physiological functions. For instance, the liver can be seen as representing the sympathetic nervous system. When we are over-stressed we might start to see symptoms attributed to over-dominance of the sympathetic nervous system. In this case, the Chinese medicine liver has nothing to do with the anatomical liver. On the other hand, the liver is said to store blood. There may be some correlation there to the actual liver.
While we may have a hard time swallowing the old terminology, it is complete in an of itself--that is, the inter-relationships of physiological functions and the treatments used to correct imbalances are mostly accurate and work. They might as well have called the liver the "blix" or any other term. It just so happens that they used words that are similar to what we now use to label the anatomical organs. The subtlety and sensitivity that allowed people to observe the body and its functioning over many, many centuries led to the theories that are still used to diagnose and treat illness.
I can't do the history of Chinese medicine justice. My main point is that we shouldn't confuse the Chinese medicine organs with the organs we studied in A & P class. But we shouldn't throw out all the theory because of this, either. We can't make a 1-to-1 connection between the CM organs and certain physiological systems either, mostly due to the reductionist way we classify and study things.
Since your nephew lost his spleen, he may have lost some function, but since the CM spleen encompasses several functions involving many organs, it's not like he lost all functionality.
A good book, written by an M.D. that later studied CM during the 80s in San Francisco, is "Optimal Healing". She eventually opened one of the first integrative clinics. She shares her experience of being completely baffled by the traditional theories and eventually making some connections between what she knew of physiology and how the ancients chose to explain things. She also goes into detail about what she thinks CM is good for and where western medicine is superior. It is probably one of the few books that really sticks to modern, medical theories in explaining the classical theories of CM. Again, she it's not like she just translates everything over 1-to-1; that's just not possible, but she does show the value of CM and how an open mind can help doctors to provide more options for their patients.
Posted by Hombre on September 4, 2010, at 0:54:16
In reply to Re: TCM))Hombre, posted by Lao Tzu on September 3, 2010, at 14:00:56
> Took my first dose of Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan today. Noticed that it felt very agreeable. However, I am such a novice at TCM. I really don't know what I'm doing. And there are so many formulas. In your opinion, is taking herbs in a formula more beneficial than trying individual herbs. I say this because I usually strike out when it comes to using individual herbs. I think I always miss the mark when I focus on one particular herb. That strategy just doesn't work well for me. My mental illness is very severe. Psychosis. No single herb works well. I'm just wondering if the Chinese formulas will be more beneficial in regards to mood and depression. I made the decision to try the formula because I believe something is lacking in my regimen. I am taking the Holy Basil, but it just isn't enough. I've tried a whole host of individual herbs, but alone they don't address my problems. You said to try a couple of different formulas. I do like the Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan, but is it a formula that indirectly effects mood over time? Should I be wary of trying certain formulas since I am on Risperdal, zoloft, and lamictal? Which ones would you stay away from? I realize you take medication as well and that you have benefitted from TCM. You inspired me to give it a try. I know it won't cure all of my problems, but in your own experience, can you say your prognosis is better because of TCM, taking into consideration that you also receive benefits from medication?
> Is there any validity or proof that combining Eastern medicine with Western medicine results in greater benefits than either alone? Is this a myth or is there solid evidence? Also, can you recommend any good books I can buy on the subject of TCM? I know so little about it. Thanks for all your input. You definitely peaked my interest, and I hope this is a step in the right direction.
>
> LaoI would definitely recommend using formulas over single herbs. The classical formulas have been tested over many, many centuries. We have a pretty good idea of how they work by now. Most formulas are pretty elegant in the way they are formulated. There are usually 1 or more chief herbs. Then there are herbs that help the actions of these herbs, maybe directing them to certain channels or 'organs'. Then there may be some herbs to counter any side-effects that may be caused by the chief herbs. Then there may even be some herbs that just harmonize the formula, helping all the herbs work better and even make the formula taste a bit better. That's why you see licorice root included in so many formulas. By itself, it may not be the right medicine, but added to a formula, it has a job to do. A good herbalist can take a base formula and add/subtract herbs to suit the specific needs of the patient. I wish we could all get personlized herbal formulas, but my focus right now is more on what the average person can do on the cheap without sacrificing efficacy.
I can't say for sure that the herbs won't interact with your meds, but from my experience they work at a different "layer", perhaps affecting the core functionality of the body. Meds tend to work on top of this layer, which is why I also believe that some cases of AD poop-out may be due to deficiencies in the body's ability to function at a basic level. If anything, you might not feel much at all. If that's the case after a week or two, consider upping the dose a little. Maybe add one more dose of 8 pills a day or taking 12 instead of 8, three times a day 30 minutes before meals or 1 hour after.
The main signs that a formula is not good for you is if it affects your sense of your body's temperature and your bowel functions. If you start to feel too hot and develop dry stools and thirst, you may need to supplement yin as well or only yin for a while. If you start to get loose stools and feel a little sluggish, the formula is too cold. BZYQW is a bit warm, but it does have some herbs to eliminate toxic heat as well. Usually the box will have a general contraindication to this effect. It's usually very simple and in plain words.
As I said, it took me some time to feel the cumulative effects of the herbs. Give it time and go on a week by week basis.
I wish there was evidence that western and eastern meds were more powerful together for psyche conditions, but it seems nearly impossible to combine the two worlds. It seems that there are more CM docs who understand both systems, but of course no one wants to believe them. And some are too new-agey.
I am definitely getting good results for myself. I wish I could say it will be the same for you, but it takes some time to figure out what your body needs and how to address that need. Also, the longer you've suffered from your illness, the longer it could take to bring the ship back on course.
Lifestyle factors will make a huge difference as well. In my opinion, exercise is necessary in order to maximize your chances of success. You don't have to do too much either - it's more likely that you'd stick to something like a 15 minute walk daily than a tough hour at the gym once or twice a week. Having done some research into how people are able to make changes to their life to increase their health and energy, the key is to create new habits in the form of rituals. Think about brushing your teeth - but wait, you don't have to. You just do it. It's automatic. You don't have to expend energy thinking about it. It's become a ritual. A ritual has a deep motivation (keep your teeth healthy) and is subconscious, so it doesn't require much conscious thought to execute.
It takes 1-3 months to instill a new ritual, but once you do it you can just set it and forget it for the most part. The key is that the purpose of making the new habit must be tied into your deepest beliefs and aspirations in life. If you just want to look good to impress others, you may workout for a while but in time will lose momentum. But if you workout to feel well, to have energy, and to prepare yourself for the stresses of re-integrating back into society after a long time battling mental illness, it becomes something you want to do.
Anyway, I'm trying to describe a process, not preach. I just happen to be passionate about exercise because a) it directly increases one's sense of self-efficacy and confidence b) most people don't get enough these days c) it is scientifically proven to not only lift mood and reduce anxiety, but also to help regrow the brain, something we long-term depressive need, since our hippocampi (?) have probably atrophied a little.
Please ask more questions so I can try to be more helpful. Sorry if I didn't address everything well.
Posted by Hombre on September 4, 2010, at 5:17:03
In reply to Re: TCM))Hombre » Lao Tzu, posted by Hombre on September 4, 2010, at 0:54:16
OK, just got back from the library and read a bit on tonic herbs from Ron Teeguarden's book. Granted, his material is mostly just glowing praise of the tonic herbs he puts in his formulas, but the info is pretty detailed and jives with other things I've read. He says that the superior herbs, including most if not all the herbs in Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan, are safe to take with no toxicity and little to no side effects. He mentions Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan as the premier Qi tonic formula. I cross-referenced with Michael Tierra's materia medica and he says basically the same thing, that the formula is the most famous formula for tonifying qi, mostly by tonifying the spleen (improving digestion > energy) and other herbs that raise the yang/upright energy in the body. The formula is also known to help with any sort of sagging or prolapse from muscular weakness. I think as long as you pay attention to your body you should be fine.
I found a book on combining Chinese medicine and Western medicine, but sadly it had no advice on combining meds and herbs with depression. It does mention that psyche treatment is "closed box", much like Chinese medicine, in that you just have to try stuff and see what works based on the patient's feelings and reactions. While I'd like to believe that there are people out there who know what's going on, at least on the internet there is very little. I have seen BZYQW mentioned as a possible treatment for depression, however, by a Chinese doctor and nutritionist. Bob Flaws has a book on treating depression and anxiety with herbs. Some of it is available on Google books, but there is no local copy for me to read.
Keep us informed with your experience with the formula. I really think it has the potential to help a lot of people.
Posted by Hombre on September 4, 2010, at 5:27:57
In reply to Re: TCM » Hombre, posted by sigismund on September 3, 2010, at 17:28:13
> Thanks for all your stuff on TCM.
>
> I must read your posts/links from a while back....the Shen sequence or something, wasn't it?Anytime. I think I've linked to and copy/pasted most of the core concepts that deal with mental illness symptoms.
Today I just read that the Shen, when weak, will lead to the inability to control emotions and/or over-emotional reactions to life's stresses.
The primary attitude toward attaining health with herbs is less about treating symptoms and more about developing an above-average level of health in the body. When energy is abundant, first the body is strong. When the body is strong, energy is ample. When energy is ample, the spirit can open up and become more giving. According to this model, the physical health of the body will eventually manifest in a positive emotional state. Conversely, one's mental state (stress) can deplete energy and if not taken care of in time, damage the body.
Oh, another thing Ron Teeguarden claims is that herbs have the ability to stop the negative spiral that often accompanies exhaustion and burnout. They have the ability to generate real change in a person. You become able to do things you didn't think you could do. I do believe this is true to some extent. When exhaustion and depression reign for so long, it really starts to change the way we think of ourselves and what we are capable of and what we think we cannot accomplish. Interesting.
Posted by sigismund on September 5, 2010, at 1:47:04
In reply to Re: TCM » sigismund, posted by Hombre on September 4, 2010, at 5:27:57
Yeah, I've found that link...it's great.
I need to read it all carefully. Then there's the xe(??) sequences. I forget, whatever it is.
Some thoughts......
My experience has been that herbs in combination are much more effective, even though it has often been more convenient to take them singly......in particular, zizyphus in combinations is stronger than zizyphus alone.
I have my doubts as to whether I should take ginseng.
I've been told several times that I am spleen deficient (apparently we in the west mostly are?), yin deficient, kidney yin deficient. Then there's my liver. Too much damp heat.
Posted by Hombre on September 5, 2010, at 9:51:32
In reply to Re: TCM » Hombre, posted by sigismund on September 5, 2010, at 1:47:04
> Yeah, I've found that link...it's great.
>
> I need to read it all carefully. Then there's the xe(??) sequences. I forget, whatever it is.Hmm. Me too.
> Some thoughts......
>
> My experience has been that herbs in combination are much more effective, even though it has often been more convenient to take them singly......in particular, zizyphus in combinations is stronger than zizyphus alone.Right. I think certain helper herbs are good at supporting and directing the main herbs to where they need to go. Perhaps they have some effect at a chemical level to potentiate the active ingredients. It's beyond me at this point, and I think for the most part we don't need to worry about how it works. We know that the formulas do what they're supposed to do - just like we know marinara sauce works to make pasta taste good. In my mind, I don't think about the individual ingredients in a formula, and I've read that we should think of formulas as an entity itself. We can even mix formulas based on how they work without worrying too much about how much of each individual herb is represented. I am currently taking 3 formulas on a daily basis and I feel more normal than I've ever felt. That's on top of the psyche drugs. Herbs are more like food than medicine.
> I have my doubts as to whether I should take ginseng.
My take on ginseng is that it is good if you are just getting over an illness and your body is very weak. You can make a good ginseng chicken soup with red dates for a nice tonic meal - maybe once a month during the cold months to boost your energy and fend off illness and fatigue. But you can take codonopsis on a daily basis and your only concern would be how to mix it with food to make it tasty and maybe taking a break once in a while.
> I've been told several times that I am spleen deficient (apparently we in the west mostly are?), yin deficient, kidney yin deficient. Then there's my liver. Too much damp heat.
I feel you on the spleen deficiency - this has been a problem of mine since I was a kid (in hindsight). I was super skinny, underweight, didn't have much appetite, and would get tired very easily. I couldn't even swim because it was too exhausting. I probably didn't eat enough and would get strange stomachaches that would sometimes bring me home from school. In addition to having a weak constitution, I think I suffered from emotional problems that exacerbated the already weak spleen system. I tended to obsess over things. That's a spleen symptom. So was the fact that I was a stick. Now I can swim, lift weights in moderation and run. Maybe part of it is just getting older, but my body is different than it was when I was in my 20s - I slowly became skinny-fat and thought I'd always have a pot belly and couldn't participate in vigorous physical activity.
In my adult years, I experienced acute spleen deficiency from stacking extreme exercise on top of too much sex. The kidneys also participate in the digestion of food and production of blood and energy. My muscles became very weak, I had headaches (I never get headaches) and I had diarrhea for several days on end. I had never had more than the occasional bout of diarrhea from food poisoning or bad diet. After somehow coming across the symptoms of spleen deficiency online, I ordered some Plumflower herbal tablets and eventually found relief. That really made me feel like there was something to Chinese herbal medicine. Too bad I was too depressed and cloudy minded to follow up and try to treat my depression.
I think I also have congenitally weak kidneys. My mother may have had cancer when I was conceived and born and that may have weakened her body and thus I may not have received enough nourishment and energy. The Chinese believe the state of the mother and father at conception will affect your Jing - your genes, your potential, your development, and your ability to withstand stress.
The weak kidneys express themselves as not being very confident, getting tired after sex, and a poor response to stress. They also manifest as having a hard time turning ideas into concrete action. A lack of willpower despite having been blessed with several talents. The frustration of not being able to nurture these talents made me feel really confused and angry with myself. It really baffled me that I could not do what others could do: have the drive to work at something until, in time, it developed into a real skill. Like playing guitar for several years and eventually writing some songs and starting a band. Or knowing enough about computers to eventually write more and more complex programs. I would always have the talent to start off strong, but lacked the grit to keep at it. I could not seem to put things together in a complex way. I was stuck at the beginner level despite being as smart as the next guy and working hard. Not special, mind you, just having my own set of gifts like everyone else does.
I only started to think that it was not a lack of character when I achieved some remission from depression for the first time a couple of years ago. This was on an antidepressant, a benzo and a sleep aid. It was a rocky sort of response, and there were some serious problems with impulse control and knowing my limits, but it was like I was suddenly able to do a lot of things I'd always wanted to do but just didn't get around to.
After I crashed and burned after getting off meds, I found a better combination of meds and lucked into Chinese herbs again. After taking a kidney tonic for a month or so, I really found myself having the ability to want to do something and then do it. It seems so natural, and yet it had eluded me for so long. That's when I really started to think that I had been living with some serious deficiencies for a long time. Of course the meds are doing a lot; I won't dare get off them until I'm cruising with a good job and I've gained enough confidence in my non-depressed self to take it to the next level. But I feel more confident knowing that there is another paradigm that can help me. It isn't an either/or of taking meds or not. I've learned a lot about supplements and herbs this time around and I know I will never have it as bad as I had it from 2008-9 where I was living in a perpetual state of emergency, exhaustion and fear.
Sorry for the rant. I just wanted to share more of my experience. I hope you can see some parallels that may give you some good ideas.
Posted by sigismund on September 5, 2010, at 14:36:38
In reply to Re: TCM » sigismund, posted by Hombre on September 5, 2010, at 9:51:32
No, it's not a rant at all. It's very interesting. This could be me
>They also manifest as having a hard time turning ideas into concrete action. A lack of willpower despite having been blessed with several talents. The frustration of not being able to nurture these talents made me feel really confused and angry with myself. It really baffled me that I could not do what others could do: have the drive to work at something until, in time, it developed into a real skill. Like playing guitar for several years and eventually writing some songs and starting a band. Or knowing enough about computers to eventually write more and more complex programs. I would always have the talent to start off strong, but lacked the grit to keep at it. I could not seem to put things together in a complex way. I was stuck at the beginner level despite being as smart as the next guy and working hard. Not special, mind you, just having my own set of gifts like everyone else does.I must go through the links and look at kidney, liver and spleen tonification. They seem to be the weak areas.
The other thing is obsessing....I would ruminate forever, in a kind of paralysis of will as if I wasn't in the real world but somewhere else. It's really demoralising to be told you are wallowing and be unable to do anything about it.
Posted by Lao Tzu on September 6, 2010, at 16:28:54
In reply to Re: TCM))Hombre » Lao Tzu, posted by Hombre on September 4, 2010, at 0:54:16
Thank you for your thorough posts. I'm learning. If I have any questions, I will get back to you. Thanks again.
Lao
Posted by Lao Tzu on September 6, 2010, at 16:36:32
In reply to Re: TCM » sigismund, posted by Hombre on September 5, 2010, at 9:51:32
Very inspiring narratives. Enjoy reading your posts.
Posted by Lao Tzu on September 6, 2010, at 16:49:12
In reply to Re: TCM » sigismund, posted by Hombre on September 5, 2010, at 9:51:32
Can you say that the kidney tonic or another tonic was influential in helping one to gain more confidence in one's abilities? I definitely need help with that, plus also with the anticipatory anxieties I have about going out to look for work or to muster up enough courage to start dating again. I will say that when I was on Ativan (benzo), I did have much more confidence in myself because the anxieties were lessened. Can you say that herbal tonics if taken over time do in some way influence what we perceive as anxiety-provoking in our lives, even though there may be no reason to fear and no reason not to do something substantial with our lives?
I guess I'm looking for something to help motivate the self and to help change the perception of the self and others. Giving up anger and guilt, especially when it is unnecessary in most situations. Would taking a spleen tonic with a kidney tonic be more beneficial rather than taking either alone? I will say I have achieved a lot from medication and vitamins, including perceptions, but still, I look for improvement.
Thanks.
Lao
Posted by Hombre on September 6, 2010, at 21:22:05
In reply to Re: TCM, posted by Lao Tzu on September 6, 2010, at 16:49:12
> Can you say that the kidney tonic or another tonic was influential in helping one to gain more confidence in one's abilities? I definitely need help with that, plus also with the anticipatory anxieties I have about going out to look for work or to muster up enough courage to start dating again. I will say that when I was on Ativan (benzo), I did have much more confidence in myself because the anxieties were lessened. Can you say that herbal tonics if taken over time do in some way influence what we perceive as anxiety-provoking in our lives, even though there may be no reason to fear and no reason not to do something substantial with our lives?
>
> I guess I'm looking for something to help motivate the self and to help change the perception of the self and others. Giving up anger and guilt, especially when it is unnecessary in most situations. Would taking a spleen tonic with a kidney tonic be more beneficial rather than taking either alone? I will say I have achieved a lot from medication and vitamins, including perceptions, but still, I look for improvement.
>
> Thanks.
>
> LaoI think the answer is: it depends. What I mean is that one will need to ask himself whether or not he is ready to make those changes. In my experience I was trying to work and exercise and be social but was completely shut down by the anxiety and fatigue. Of course this made me discouraged and angry with myself. I was also smoking and not smoking, and definitely felt better when not smoking. I got some energy and relief from the obsessive thinking and negativity from the medications, but still felt a bit unstable and jittery. The herbs seemed to be the final piece to the puzzle in terms of stabilizing and smoothing out the rough edges and helping to expand my capacity to generate and expend energy. I still have to exercise, eat well and make an effort to communicate to others when I feel that the relationship is unhealthy in some way. I'd say the exercise is the main element after meds and herbs in terms of creating positive change that can be felt. If I go several days without breaking a sweat I will still feel sluggish and less prone to getting out there and being active. That's because my energy capacity is decreasing and maybe my metabolism starts to slow down. This is a dangerous situation because I will then be less likely to exercise or get out. While I may not be paralyzed by anxiety or ruminating about the past, I am sort of couchbound and tend to accomplish very little. And of course I don't feel very good about myself if I am so inactive.
If you feel that you are trying to be active but your body (and feelings) making you feel like you don't have it in you to do it, the herbs may help. But, if you take a good honest look at yourself and decide that you may need to adjust your thinking and attitudes so that you have a fresh perspective towards new activites rather than conditioned thoughts (understandably, after years of suffering disability), the herbs can still help, but will need to go hand in hand with some baby steps towards making those psycho-emotional changes. This is in no way some attempt to say that I know what your situation is, just trying to be honest and give the best advice that I can given my limited perspective.
I do think it wouldn't hurt to give the herbs a try. They are pretty safe overall, and you've shown a remarkable ability to tune into your body and to let go of a new supplement/herb when it is not really helping. That is really the attitude of the herbalist and it will certainly serve you well.
Posted by Deneb on September 7, 2010, at 5:06:57
In reply to Re: TCM » Lao Tzu, posted by Hombre on September 6, 2010, at 21:22:05
Wow! You sure know a lot about traditional Chinese medicine!
My parents are Chinese and they believe in TCM. I always think they are weirdos, talking about "heat" and stuff and burning stuff, moxibustion??
Anyways, thanks for your descriptions. They helped me understand a little more.
Posted by Prozac Pro on September 7, 2010, at 9:28:28
In reply to Re: TCM » Phillipa, posted by Hombre on September 4, 2010, at 0:23:31
Just in my personal experience, Western medicine/psychiatry is far more effective at treating major depression than is TCM. I am under the impression that has been the experience in China, as well. However, I think that TCM potentially has promise in treating the side effects of psychotropic meds, much as it has been used to alleviate the side effects of chemo. I wonder if any work has been done in China on the use of TCM to treat, e.g., SSRI side effects?
Posted by morgan miller on September 7, 2010, at 14:09:59
In reply to Re: TCM, posted by Prozac Pro on September 7, 2010, at 9:28:28
> Just in my personal experience, Western medicine/psychiatry is far more effective at treating major depression than is TCM. I am under the impression that has been the experience in China, as well. However, I think that TCM potentially has promise in treating the side effects of psychotropic meds, much as it has been used to alleviate the side effects of chemo. I wonder if any work has been done in China on the use of TCM to treat, e.g., SSRI side effects?
Or what about using TCM and other herbs/supplements as adjuncts to psychiatric medications to enhance and further antidepressant therapy? I'm thinking of fish oil, schisandra, cordyceps, holy basil and TCM herbal remedies.
Posted by Lao Tzu on September 8, 2010, at 11:39:24
In reply to Re: TCM » Lao Tzu, posted by Hombre on September 6, 2010, at 21:22:05
Thank you for your honest thoughts. I appreciate that very much. I agree with you that if you are inactive all the time, you won't feel very good about yourself. That seems to be the case for me as well. I always do feel better after a good round of tennis. Maybe I should make it a serious habit. Thanks again.
Lao
Posted by Hombre on September 10, 2010, at 21:55:03
In reply to Re: TCM, posted by Prozac Pro on September 7, 2010, at 9:28:28
> Just in my personal experience, Western medicine/psychiatry is far more effective at treating major depression than is TCM. I am under the impression that has been the experience in China, as well. However, I think that TCM potentially has promise in treating the side effects of psychotropic meds, much as it has been used to alleviate the side effects of chemo. I wonder if any work has been done in China on the use of TCM to treat, e.g., SSRI side effects?
TCM will treat the pattern regardless of the origin. In terms of treating SSRI side effects, they are classified in terms of TCM patterns and treated accordingly. This is sort of the nice thing about TCM in terms of helping people, but it makes it unsuitable for rigorous studies.
I take chinese herbs for my SSRI and AAP side effects:
- apathy
- tiredness
- urinary hesitancy
- sexual dysfunction
- weight gain
- anxiety
- brain fog
- fatigue
- trouble concentratingThese may be exacerbated by my own constitutional idiosyncracies or may also be symptoms of depression. I categorize my patterns as:
- deficient kidney yang
- deficient kidney yin
> the apathy, urinary, and sexual SEs, maybe trouble initiating actions- liver stagnation
> apathy, or just feeling "stuck", anger- spleen deficiency
> general fatigue and trouble concentrating or rememberingThe danger of supplementing yang and qi is that I run the risk of depleting yin - so I drink chrysanthemum and goji fruit tea, eat fruits, drink plenty of water and electrolytes, eat pork, do tai chi, go to bed early and avoid too much spicy food and stimulants. If I feel like yin is deficient I'll feel sort of hot and dry, especially with thirst. If I feel like yang is deficient, I feel a little too relaxed and calm, won't feel like doing as much activity.
It seems simplistic, but I can totally adjust my mood, energy and mental function by using herbs, food and activity/rest to maintain balance. The proof is in the pudding, especially with symptoms like urinary hesitancy and sexual function.
Posted by Hombre on September 10, 2010, at 21:58:25
In reply to Re: TCM » Prozac Pro, posted by Hombre on September 10, 2010, at 21:55:03
The thing about TCM is that few people taking SSRIs and psyche drugs bother to try it. Well, very few people *period* bother to try it. Without people getting proper treatment and expressing their results, it'll basically remain an open secret. If you look at the regular pbabble board and the alternative board, you'll see a very different way of thinking. Don't get me wrong, the meds are powerful, but they are not always predictable and only work with what you got. TCM helps you adjust what you got.
Posted by Prozac Pro on September 11, 2010, at 10:20:32
In reply to Re: TCM » Prozac Pro, posted by Hombre on September 10, 2010, at 21:55:03
> > Just in my personal experience, Western medicine/psychiatry is far more effective at treating major depression than is TCM. I am under the impression that has been the experience in China, as well. However, I think that TCM potentially has promise in treating the side effects of psychotropic meds, much as it has been used to alleviate the side effects of chemo. I wonder if any work has been done in China on the use of TCM to treat, e.g., SSRI side effects?
>
> TCM will treat the pattern regardless of the origin. In terms of treating SSRI side effects, they are classified in terms of TCM patterns and treated accordingly. This is sort of the nice thing about TCM in terms of helping people, but it makes it unsuitable for rigorous studies.
>
> I take chinese herbs for my SSRI and AAP side effects:
>
> - apathy
> - tiredness
> - urinary hesitancy
> - sexual dysfunction
> - weight gain
> - anxiety
> - brain fog
> - fatigue
> - trouble concentrating
>
> These may be exacerbated by my own constitutional idiosyncracies or may also be symptoms of depression. I categorize my patterns as:
>
> - deficient kidney yang
> - deficient kidney yin
> > the apathy, urinary, and sexual SEs, maybe trouble initiating actions
>
> - liver stagnation
> > apathy, or just feeling "stuck", anger
>
> - spleen deficiency
> > general fatigue and trouble concentrating or remembering
>
> The danger of supplementing yang and qi is that I run the risk of depleting yin - so I drink chrysanthemum and goji fruit tea, eat fruits, drink plenty of water and electrolytes, eat pork, do tai chi, go to bed early and avoid too much spicy food and stimulants. If I feel like yin is deficient I'll feel sort of hot and dry, especially with thirst. If I feel like yang is deficient, I feel a little too relaxed and calm, won't feel like doing as much activity.
>
> It seems simplistic, but I can totally adjust my mood, energy and mental function by using herbs, food and activity/rest to maintain balance. The proof is in the pudding, especially with symptoms like urinary hesitancy and sexual function.So, are there any patent remedies that you have found to be helpful, or do you see a herbalist for custom formulas?
I have many of the same issues as you.
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