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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jeroen on December 22, 2009, at 15:41:45
Glycine - new anti psychotic safe?
20 grams daily, someone has recovered fully and messaged me on medhelp DOT com
Posted by willey on December 22, 2009, at 15:41:45
In reply to Glycine - new anti psychotic safe?, posted by Jeroen on December 21, 2009, at 14:43:20
Wish i could give u a better answer,HOWEVER you are being misinformed.Along with meds i study nutrients,amino acids and other herbs and nutrients for ten years now.
What glycine is would be a amino acid,a natural supplement and building block of the body,glycine would for example fit in with what you might know as tyrosine,phenlyanine etc.
They are in no way drugs.People often mega dose these amino acids to achieve a drug like effect,these mega dose protocols are usualy talked about on natural sites etc.
Now while glycine is indeed involved in the brain with many mental disorders,its invovlment is very complex,and is much more then simply adding more by means of supplements.
Again people mega dose stuff like phenylanine for depression,gaba for anxiety,taurine for anxiety and so on,....but they usualy dont get lasting effects,this is because the brain works much more complex then over loading it with a single amino
Medications are tweaked by scientist to do more then simply raise chemicals,they have methods of action etc,so to replace a medication with a simple over load of a amino acid can be dangerous in some cases,you might get a initial feel at first,but you will absolutly in time cause an imbalance in amino acids and you will not get any form of lasting therputic effect.This is my opinion of course,people will disagree,but i workout and studied these supplements for a very long time and i have never ever seen amino stacking work long term.Now what is common is to use amino acids and supplements to augment drugs,to potienate them and so on,this is definalty a more effective and safer way to use them
However peopl with serious illness levels such as urself i feel are dabbling in dangerous waters by using natural supplement mega dosing over medication.
Rember a natural substance when overloaded,megadosed etc is no longer natural as its being used in a unnatural way similiar to a drug.
What is important to know is when u look up a amino acid,they usualy tell u what it does in the brain,from that companys flaunt the amino acids to sell,however just because a amino acid does xx in the brain,it doesent mean its a simple process of megadosing it,there actions in the brain have nothing to do with the free form supplement of it.Jeron i have read ur posts a long time,i truly feel for you,i dont think you give urself any props for the good things about you,well ill tell u,even with extreme suffering you are constantly trying meds,constantly posting and talking about them,constantly seeking help,that shows a lot of character and i know its easier for me to say then for you to feel,but u should stop and take pride in that now and then.
Finaly i recomend u read on the amino acids,i believe there are 13 essential ones,they all play a vital role in the brain,learning them contributes enromously to better understanding any thing about the brain.
Here is a pretty good article i found as i wrote this,im going to save it myself and read it as it looks really informative.
Posted by bleauberry on December 22, 2009, at 15:41:46
In reply to Glycine - new anti psychotic safe?, posted by Jeroen on December 21, 2009, at 14:43:20
Glycine is not new or an antipsychotic. It is a natural substance all of our bodies make and use from food. It just happens that it has shown some evidence in treating schizophrenia/psychosis with or without antipsychotics, but usually as an add-on with them.
Posted by neuralbudhist on December 22, 2009, at 15:42:14
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
> Wish i could give u a better answer,HOWEVER you are being misinformed.Along with meds i study nutrients,amino acids and other herbs and nutrients for ten years now.
>
> What glycine is would be a amino acid,a natural supplement and building block of the body,glycine would for example fit in with what you might know as tyrosine,phenlyanine etc.
>
> They are in no way drugs.People often mega dose these amino acids to achieve a drug like effect,these mega dose protocols are usualy talked about on natural sites etc.
>
> Now while glycine is indeed involved in the brain with many mental disorders,its invovlment is very complex,and is much more then simply adding more by means of supplements.
>
> Again people mega dose stuff like phenylanine for depression,gaba for anxiety,taurine for anxiety and so on,....but they usualy dont get lasting effects,this is because the brain works much more complex then over loading it with a single amino
>
>
> Medications are tweaked by scientist to do more then simply raise chemicals,they have methods of action etc,so to replace a medication with a simple over load of a amino acid can be dangerous in some cases,you might get a initial feel at first,but you will absolutly in time cause an imbalance in amino acids and you will not get any form of lasting therputic effect.This is my opinion of course,people will disagree,but i workout and studied these supplements for a very long time and i have never ever seen amino stacking work long term.
>
> Now what is common is to use amino acids and supplements to augment drugs,to potienate them and so on,this is definalty a more effective and safer way to use them
>
> However peopl with serious illness levels such as urself i feel are dabbling in dangerous waters by using natural supplement mega dosing over medication.
>
> Rember a natural substance when overloaded,megadosed etc is no longer natural as its being used in a unnatural way similiar to a drug.
>
>
> What is important to know is when u look up a amino acid,they usualy tell u what it does in the brain,from that companys flaunt the amino acids to sell,however just because a amino acid does xx in the brain,it doesent mean its a simple process of megadosing it,there actions in the brain have nothing to do with the free form supplement of it.
>
> Jeron i have read ur posts a long time,i truly feel for you,i dont think you give urself any props for the good things about you,well ill tell u,even with extreme suffering you are constantly trying meds,constantly posting and talking about them,constantly seeking help,that shows a lot of character and i know its easier for me to say then for you to feel,but u should stop and take pride in that now and then.
>
> Finaly i recomend u read on the amino acids,i believe there are 13 essential ones,they all play a vital role in the brain,learning them contributes enromously to better understanding any thing about the brain.
>
> Here is a pretty good article i found as i wrote this,im going to save it myself and read it as it looks really informative.
>
>
> http://www.benbest.com/science/anatmind/anatmd10.htmlFirstly people should not self medicate for any reason. However, glycine is not just a natural remedy. It is antipsychotic agent used in Phase II FDA study. Here is the link to the glycine study:
http://www.schizophrenia.com/glycinetreat.htm
In the standard glycine study it is used as an adjunct to standard antipsychotics. However, in myself (I could confirm to any administrator who the researchers are, I just can't post their names for confidentiality purposes, my recovery wtih glycine has been discussed among multiple provider agenties as well) it is used as a primary antipsychotic. Glycine will because of the fact that it is only used as an adjunct treatment and is require to be taken in powdered format never become a medication. However, this class of medication, the NMDA receptor modulates
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/1357569?verify=0
of which glycine is one in that they do not cause tardive dyskinesia or diabetes and promote a fuller recovery are showing promise as "next generation antipsychotics". In many studies their increased potential help has been shown to be specifically on negative and cognitive symptoms. However, in myself glycine helped on positive symptoms (hallucinations, delusions, etc.) as well and my schizoaffective disorder is now in basic remmission. Of course one recovery does not determine a clinical conclusion. Only controlled studies can. I was allowed to start glycine because I have advanced tardive dyskinesia and could not tolerate Clozaril.
Tyrosine and phenalalynine are both useless or dangerous. Glycine may be misused as a natural remedy or supplement for body builders. However, it is indeed in clinical study as an antipsychotic. People should not try to obtain it on their own. However, as many standard consumer agencies have said the decision to start an experimental study medication (when known treatments have failed) is between consumer and provider. Any further discussions should be with a knowledgable psychopharmocologist. But do know that this is a very promising class of antipsychotics in development and glycine is the compound that they are developing them from.
Posted by willey on December 22, 2009, at 15:42:42
In reply to Re: Glycine - new anti psychotic safe?, posted by neuralbudhist on December 22, 2009, at 0:41:59
Since you directly responded to my post,not sure if you were replinyg in regard to mine.If you were first let me say u provided some great studies.
Second however,you stated the same thing i did,that glycine as well as other amino acis are commonly used adjunct WITH or PART of a med combo.
There tons of studies like the one you presented,taurine for one is a major inhibitory amino second only to gaba,and many studies have been done finding it useful in condtions from seizures to bipolar as the amino acid can stablize eletrical acivity in the brain as well as inhibit glutamate induced toxcity.It also raises natural gaba levels.
Many amino acids work well with meds,in the article you presented,i breezed over and if im correct they also included two other amino acids found useful along with glycine.I dont believe using the resources and so on from the internet,published info,user info,and so on is in any way bad as it is a form of self medication.
This only my view totaly,but i feel the time has come to use the abundance of info we now have,and play a part in our treatment.
Psycology has always changed,from the initial introduction of thorazine which finaly let people out of hospitals,to the use of drugs such as maois and tcas,to the arrival of the famous ssri class,to cbt therapy,and so on.
Self medicating,well which sounds bad,but getting invovled in your treatment is long over due,and we should not be afriad to do so,and docs and patients should relaise the time has onece again changed and psyh has again entered new stages.
Im not what you were saying exactly,but becuase glcycine was in a small study does not in any way present it any more then what it is which is a over the counter supplement,and to recomend,not saying uhave,but to do so and recomend these treatments in place of possable medication is very dangerous.
There are in depth studies such as the one u present on almost every amino acid,example being taurine and gaba,but they are small,and unfortantly for us not any kinda of major breakthrough.To jerons orignal post,the dose of glycine u mentioned on using is absurd,and i hope u dont turn to this as a replacment for meds.
Posted by Deneb on December 22, 2009, at 15:42:43
In reply to Re: Glycine - new anti psychotic safe?, posted by neuralbudhist on December 22, 2009, at 0:41:59
Hello neuralbudhist!
Welcome to Psycho-Babble! That was fascinating info about glycine! I had no idea it was anti-psychotic! I'm sure others will benefit from this info. Thanks for contributing!
Deneb
Posted by willey on December 22, 2009, at 15:42:43
In reply to Re: Glycine - new anti psychotic safe? » neuralbudhist, posted by Deneb on December 22, 2009, at 3:31:18
> Hello neuralbudhist!
>
> Welcome to Psycho-Babble! That was fascinating info about glycine! I had no idea it was anti-psychotic! I'm sure others will benefit from this info. Thanks for contributing!
>
> DenebSorry id much rather not post here as differences of opinions are what keeps boards informative,however i see right here what i personaly feel mis information can do.
Deneb glycine is NOT a anti psychotic,no way no how,not at all.
It is instead a common over the counter nutrient,an amino acid available at any gnc.What this article is about is how brain glycine has been shown to be of aid,usualy in combo with other agents to show promise in treatment of anti psychotic.
However the majority anti psych meds work very differently then glycine does.Glycine like gaba etc are natural compounds that have shown to aid in things such as anxiety also.
Antoehr example is the use of l phenylainine which is just like glycine an amino acid and is commonly used with maois or other drugs to aid depression since it has been show to aid and poteniate ant depressants however it alone is not a anti depressant.
It also is not a official treatment for depression,many people use small studies to promote their products as such,but the fact is they are not medications but natural supplemtns of the body found at your local health food store.
Even one of them that was actualy taken off the store shevles and made a medication would be lopa,and even one such as this still is not considered mono treatment but rather is said to be used as a add on to medication therapy for parkinson.
The only reason i came back to this article,rather then just move on is because it scares me to hear someone refer to glycine as a anti-psychotic,it is in no way not,found helpful in many mental disorders,but if it were to be made a drug even it would probuably be tweaked to be a effiecent drug and still not what it is now which is a store bought legaly available supplement and not a anti-psychotic drug in any way shape or form.
Im not going to post anymore on the topic,im sure i said enough to people who believe both sides,but all im saying is im not debunking the claim of its usefulness however i also clear from view the disinformation that is indeed a anti psych drug to which is is not.
Posted by willey on December 22, 2009, at 15:42:44
In reply to Re: Glycine - new anti psychotic safe?, posted by willey on December 22, 2009, at 12:32:13
Messing with as many natural treatments as i have including glcyince,i forgot one that may be relavent to thread.
There is actualy a procduct most probuably know called DMG which stands for DI-METHYL-GLYCINE.What it is would be the glycine amino attatched to a brain carrier which is the di methyl.
This is potent goes into the brain and has a immediate effect.
The main brand,anamak or something actualy had a struggle with the FDA who attempted to take it off the health shevles and look into it as a prescription drug.
Unlike other natural products such as ghb,l tryptophan,kava kava,DMG instead had a backing of someone with money which the many natural supplements taken from us dident.
The company quickly laid its foot down proving it was a diet supplement and stopping any removal of it.
DMG i believe is actualy not allowed to be used in olympic games.
Now as far as its effects opposed to standerd glycine with same action,i dont know,the poster who presented the study prob would know,all i know is not realizing that same over the counter stuff can be potent,i took it,and being sensative to any form of stimulant,my mind became instantly sharp after dmg tab,i felt extremly intelligent,and awake,at first was a good feeling till i noticed i also feel very depressed,very quick tempered,and had a 3 day insomnia run.
This is just me and my chemistry,the plus is that its very close to a med since it has a brain carrier and is not doubted as to the fast ability it has the enter the brain.I know its use for autism is very popular.If it aids in psyco matic behavior in the way the article states glycine does,then perhaps this might be a good choice to start looking into.If the poster above can give insight to whether or not this is the case,or if the molecule takes on a change would be helpful as it is a much more potent version of glycine.
Id also perhaps google dmg and psyhc disorder as well,as i said i know its used extenivsly on autism,...personaly i stepped away from natural remedies as i found mostly from the books a empty wallet,i do value the info from though.
I would just recomend when using natural supplements with ur treatment,if you have a mental disorder to still take in depth measure and time before u ingest any of these remedies as they can even legal still produce dangerous and sometimes fatal results,l phenyalinine being able to cause heart attacks being a example.
Whew ok,sorry to blabber,but its been a while sine i spoke about natural remedies,something i at a time was obsessed with.
Be safe and remeber the dmg brand u want is in a bright yellow box.
Posted by neuralbudhist on December 22, 2009, at 19:40:53
In reply to Re: On a positive note, posted by willey on December 22, 2009, at 15:42:44
Yes I agree with what you said but please remember that glycine is part of a group of antipsychotics in Phase II FDA controlled study worldwide called the NMDA receptor modulates. Like any board people should not take medical advice from here regardless but glycine is in standard clinical study for that group of antipsychotics. There is much promising research. The same would not be true of the other compounds you mentioned. My specific recovery has been documented throughout multiple provider agencies. That doesn't mean other people will find the same results nor should they attempt to self medicate. Regardless such this class of antipsychotics is in standard psychiatric clinical study. I already posted this link:
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/1357569?verify=0
Which is from a highly reputable psychiatric journal. As well, this class of antipsychotics has other medications that unlike glycine have shown efficacy as primary antipsychotics:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/03/business/03drug.html?_r=1
As well you can find out more where glycine is being researched:
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/164/10/1593?ck=nck
The fact that a compound that is in Phase II FDA study is available over the shelves shows exactly how under regulated natural remedies and compounds are. I agree that like on any site we should not make treatment reccomendations. I would state conclusively that my recovery from schizoaffective disorder with glycine has been clinically noted and that this class of antipsychotics is showing much promise in standard psychiatric research and that discussing the research into this new and promising class of antipsychotics is worthwhile. BTW the specifics of my recovery from schizoaffective disorder with glycine and the identification and treatment of the 3 as until now unknown neuropsychiatric aspects of tardive was published in a consumer mental health newsletter that is monitored by a standard reseach psychiatrist and was pre approved by my psychopharmocologist as well. However because it has my full name I would not print it here. However, since that article is of course in the public domain I will quote from it "testimony was presented as regarding my recovery with glycine as a novel antipsychotic agent 'as good as on any FDA approved antipsychotics or better' to quote my psychopharmocologist at the NARSAD Healthy Minds Across America Forum". It should be noted I am the first person to respond to glycine in regards to positive symptoms. However, the other NMDA receptor modulates in study are effective on all symptoms not just as adjunct antipsychotics. The information as regards this class of antipsychotics I posted is clinically accurate (coming from researchers, not myself) but as they are in Phase II FDA study it will take many further studies to understand them.
Posted by SLS on December 23, 2009, at 7:30:27
In reply to Re: Glycine - new anti psychotic safe?, posted by neuralbudhist on December 22, 2009, at 15:42:14
> Firstly people should not self medicate for any reason.
I disagree.
I think one would need to assume knowledge of the entirety of human conditions in order to say something like that. My exploration of drugs and dosages has allowed me to establish a more functional and less painful state of consciousness. When every doctor knows everything there is to know about every illness, I might then be willing to blindly and passively allow myself to be treated by them.
- Scott
Posted by neuralbudhist on December 23, 2009, at 12:06:59
In reply to Re: Glycine - new anti psychotic safe? » neuralbudhist, posted by SLS on December 23, 2009, at 7:30:27
> > Firstly people should not self medicate for any reason.
>
> I disagree.
>
> I think one would need to assume knowledge of the entirety of human conditions in order to say something like that. My exploration of drugs and dosages has allowed me to establish a more functional and less painful state of consciousness. When every doctor knows everything there is to know about every illness, I might then be willing to blindly and passively allow myself to be treated by them.
>
>
> - ScottI would strongly disagree because there is so much out there in the way of natural remedies that can be dangerous. Tyrosine sped up my blood pressure dangerously and made me psychotic. Taurine made me highly psychotic. I tried those 2 years ago without my psychiatrist's supervision because I read about them on a site about "natural mood stabilizers" which when I later showed it to my psychiatrist was informed it was complete misinformation (which was true, there's a lot of spam/bogus sites on the internet). That was before my current recovery. I would never do that again for any reason. Even what seemed to be a "harmless" natural remedy such as cranberry pills I used for prostatitis on the suggestion of an older family member (who thought natural meant safe which is completely untrue) gave me kidney stones. I learned the hard way and would not try this again ever.
Every medication in clinical study or natural remedy I use is in standard clinical experiment and my psychopharmocologist and neurologist who is a movement disorders specialist approved and monitored its usage. I looked up the studies on Clinicaltrials.gov and Pubmed and gave them the information and they decided after much further research whether the treatments were safe and/or effective. Many after further research on their behalf were turned down. Remember there was much research on glycine and the NMDA receptor modulates long before I used glycine under strict psychiatric supervision (which was only because I couldn't tolerate Clozaril and have advanced tardive dyskinesia). They are groundbreaking research and may very well form a future generation of antipsychotics that when FDA approved will be far safer and effective than what is available now. But let the studies show what is going on first and be approved. Any decisions as regards medications and supplemental treatments must be appproved by a psychiatrist first.
Posted by willey on December 23, 2009, at 13:41:42
In reply to Re: Experimental Treatments and Safety, posted by neuralbudhist on December 23, 2009, at 12:06:59
It sounds like you have a doc who i wish i had.I cant speak for everyone,nor can i say this is a fact,however most p-docs will not discuss with you actual medications they can themselves read on,they can be introduced to a drug they had not known,but they will expect to be able to do so from the database they use.
As far as the ill effects one can have and i hate to use this term "self medicating" is no more different then when docs themselves have patients turn maniac on given meds.
Lets bring in logic for a second,there is no scieance at all to what medication a doc chooses,they work off of information to which they have access to combined with their personal judgment when prescribing a med,there is no other way.
Patients have similiar access to information,so if there where any scieance used in the office as to why i was given x drug then my view would be different.
And self medicating is the patients choice,a person needs to hold responsabilty to their comfort level of doing so.
For instance you mention the trials with glycine,however glycine as we speak is available on every gnc shelf.
So its a persons own decision to get excitied from your info and go and start using glycine.
Also if a doc were to be in control of my glycine use,what can he possably offer that i couldent?If im gonna respond bad to it its gonna happen,he will have no way like i to pre determine this.
I also wonder if glycine were to become a drug,what would happen as it would still be on local health shop shelves,would people pay high prices when they can simply purchase the natural form from a store.
I want to make clear i dont feel this way about all docs,many docs will force refer you to other docs when the problem is out of their hands,many docs handle conditions which testing can be done to evalute the drugs level,p-docs unfortunatly for us do not have this,they have the same as we do,an abundance of various information to which all every pieace is based on theory.
Dont let me lead you wrong either,i loathe every form of mental disease,they steal your character,your pride,possably your career,family,and never tire down,so anything that ends up working for someone im all for it,i just dont wanna rely on 10 min sessions to achieve this myself.
Posted by neuralbudhist on December 23, 2009, at 17:26:44
In reply to Re: Experimental Treatments and Safety, posted by willey on December 23, 2009, at 13:41:42
> It sounds like you have a doc who i wish i had.I cant speak for everyone,nor can i say this is a fact,however most p-docs will not discuss with you actual medications they can themselves read on,they can be introduced to a drug they had not known,but they will expect to be able to do so from the database they use.
>
> As far as the ill effects one can have and i hate to use this term "self medicating" is no more different then when docs themselves have patients turn maniac on given meds.
>
> Lets bring in logic for a second,there is no scieance at all to what medication a doc chooses,they work off of information to which they have access to combined with their personal judgment when prescribing a med,there is no other way.
>
> Patients have similiar access to information,so if there where any scieance used in the office as to why i was given x drug then my view would be different.
>
> And self medicating is the patients choice,a person needs to hold responsabilty to their comfort level of doing so.
>
> For instance you mention the trials with glycine,however glycine as we speak is available on every gnc shelf.
>
> So its a persons own decision to get excitied from your info and go and start using glycine.
>
> Also if a doc were to be in control of my glycine use,what can he possably offer that i couldent?If im gonna respond bad to it its gonna happen,he will have no way like i to pre determine this.
>
> I also wonder if glycine were to become a drug,what would happen as it would still be on local health shop shelves,would people pay high prices when they can simply purchase the natural form from a store.
>
> I want to make clear i dont feel this way about all docs,many docs will force refer you to other docs when the problem is out of their hands,many docs handle conditions which testing can be done to evalute the drugs level,p-docs unfortunatly for us do not have this,they have the same as we do,an abundance of various information to which all every pieace is based on theory.
>
> Dont let me lead you wrong either,i loathe every form of mental disease,they steal your character,your pride,possably your career,family,and never tire down,so anything that ends up working for someone im all for it,i just dont wanna rely on 10 min sessions to achieve this myself.Yes I agree with your point. However, for myself the glycine was not adjusted randomly but titrated as regarding the criteria in the study and also my psychopharmocologist has been in correspondence with some of the major researchers of glycine in the field and they have discussed specifics as regards efficacy and side effects found in the Phase II FDA controlled studies that have been ongoing since 2003. My psychopharmocologist uses standard medications like everyone here takes. The only reason glycine was initiated as regards myself was because I have advanced tardive and could not tolerate Clozaril. There is a big difference between a person obtaining it and using it on and their own and what was initated regarding myself. A person can't self monitor for an efficacy of a medication as regarding schizophrenia. A person could be manic and think they were "cured" with anything. In the standard study glycine is specifically effective for use on negative and cognitive symptoms. I am the first to respond to it for positive symptoms. So this would be a clinical first as regards glycine which in not collerating with controlled studies could not be considered to be conclusive but as been used for a further understanding of NMDA receptor modulates in general among researchers. As regards psychopharmocologists, a person may not need one if they are doing well on a standard medication and dose combination but a psychopharmocologist might be helpful if they haven't responded to known treatments. That doesn't mean natural remedies would be considered but medications that are FDA approved but used for off label purposes might be within a psychopharmocologist's discretion. As for natural remedies in Europe they are clinically researched and prescribed as medications. You can't buy them on your own and they are only available by prescription. To me that's a fare more sensible idea but that's another issue in itself..
Posted by willey on December 24, 2009, at 0:45:49
In reply to Re: Experimental Treatments and Safety, posted by neuralbudhist on December 23, 2009, at 17:26:44
Well i think its about time in this thread to wish u well regardless and hope things continue.With little disagreements or diffent ideas we all share the same big picture.Thanks for the links i looked up more and did some reading,so thanks.
This is the end of the thread.
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