![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 24, 2007, at 15:53:11
Thanks to reverett on neurotalk for these..
Anyway, thought some might find these interesting ..
Curcumin reverses the effects of chronic stress on behavior, the HPA axis, BDNF
expression and phosphorylation of CREB.Xu Y, Ku B, Tie L, Yao H, Jiang W, Ma X, Li X.
Department of Pharmacology, School of Basic Medical Science, Peking University,
38 Xueyuan Road, Beijing, 100083, PR China.Curcuma longa is a major constituent of the traditional Chinese medicine
Xiaoyao-san, which has been used to effectively manage stress and
depression-related disorders in China. Curcumin is the active component of
curcuma longa, and its antidepressant effects were described in our prior
studies in mouse models of behavioral despair. We hypothesized that curcumin may
also alleviate stress-induced depressive-like behaviors and
hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis dysfunction. Thus in present study we
assessed whether curcumin treatment (2.5, 5 and 10 mg/kg, p.o.) affects behavior
in a chronic unpredictable stress model of depression in rats and examined what
its molecular targets may be. We found that subjecting animals to the chronic
stress protocol for 20days resulted in performance deficits in the shuttle-box
task and several physiological effects, such as an abnormal adrenal gland weight
to body weight (AG/B) ratio and increased thickness of the adrenal cortex as
well as elevated serum corticosterone levels and reduced glucocorticoid receptor
(GR) mRNA expression. These changes were reversed by chronic curcumin
administration (5 or 10 mg/kg, p.o.). In addition, we also found that the
chronic stress procedure induced a down-regulation of brain-derived neurotrophic
factor (BDNF) protein levels and reduced the ratio of phosphorylated cAMP
response element-binding protein (pCREB) to CREB levels (pCREB/CREB) in the
hippocampus and frontal cortex of stressed rats. Furthermore, these
stress-induced decreases in BDNF and pCREB/CREB were also blocked by chronic
curcumin administration (5 or 10 mg/kg, p.o.). These results provide compelling
evidence that the behavioral effects of curcumin in chronically stressed
animals, and by extension humans, may be related to their modulating effects on
the HPA axis and neurotrophin factor expressions.PMID: 17022948 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
Biol Pharm Bull. 2006 May;29(5):938-44.Ethanolic extracts from Curcuma longa attenuates behavioral, immune, and
neuroendocrine alterations in a rat chronic mild stress model.Xia X, Pan Y, Zhang WY, Cheng G, Kong LD.
State Key Laboratory of Pharmaceutical Biotechnology, Immunobiological
Laboratory, Nanjing University, PR China.The ethanolic extracts from the rhizome of Curcuma longa L. (turmeric),
possesses a wide variety of biological activities related to the treatment and
prevention of affective disorders. To study their antidepressant effects, the
impacts of chronic mild stress (CMS) and of the subsequent administration of
ethanolic extracts of C. longa were investigated. Male Sprague-Dawley rats
subjected to the CMS procedure demonstrated increased serum interleukin-6 and
tumor necrosis factor-alpha levels, as well as a reduction of natural killer
cell activity in splenocytes. In addition, CMS-treated rats exhibited elevated
corticotropin-releasing factor in serum and medulla oblongata and cortisol
levels in serum, with no significant change in serum adrenocorticotropin hormone
levels. The preferential behavior of reduction in sucrose intake was also
observed. These findings indicate that the alterations in immune and
hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis systems could participate in the
behavioral response to the CMS procedure in animals. Administration of ethanolic
extracts of C. longa largely reversed the above effects. These results
demonstrate the antidepressant-like activity of ethanolic extracts of C. longa
in the rat CMS model of depression, at least in part by improving the
abnormalities in immune and the HPA axis functions.PMID: 16651723 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
JB
Posted by linkadge on January 24, 2007, at 17:01:29
In reply to Curcumin - HPA axis, posted by Jimmyboy on January 24, 2007, at 15:53:11
Curcumin was probably one of the most effective antidepressants I have tried.
Did you see the study that suggested that extracts of curcumin were more effective than fluoxetine at reverseing depressive like behaviors in mice?
Lnkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 24, 2007, at 17:13:31
In reply to Re: Curcumin - HPA axis, posted by linkadge on January 24, 2007, at 17:01:29
> Curcumin was probably one of the most effective antidepressants I have tried.
>
> Did you see the study that suggested that extracts of curcumin were more effective than fluoxetine at reverseing depressive like behaviors in mice?
>
> LnkadgeDid you use turmeric, or a curcumin extract?
If you do the math, to get 10 mg/kg curcumin, with curcumin at about 3% by weight in turmeric, you'd need 7 grams a day for a 70 kg individual. That's enough to play havoc with COX, but it's unclear what the long-term consequences of that might be.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on January 24, 2007, at 19:13:48
In reply to Re: Curcumin - HPA axis » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on January 24, 2007, at 17:13:31
Is curcumin the ingredient responsible for Cox-2 inhibtion?
If so, the cox inhibiton and MAO inhibiton are inseperable (?)
Yes, for a few weeks, I ingesteed about 10 grams of curry powder per day.
Around a 60g bottle per week.
I do not know if doses this high are critical for an antidepressant response though. I am not a believer in the notion that a certain degree of MAO inhibiton must be achieved for an antidepressant response.
As you had mentioned before, the anti-inflamitory action may be responsable in part for the psychologial effects of turmeric.
I know you doubt my discriminative abilities, I bet I could tell you the difference between a 1 gram capsule of turmeric, and 1 gram of a substance with equlivilant antinflamitory capacity.
Another tip off was that I would get symptoms of mild serotonin syndrome if I combined as little as one gram of turmeric with citalopram.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 24, 2007, at 19:16:59
In reply to Re: Curcumin - HPA axis » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on January 24, 2007, at 17:13:31
Although, there are other herbal products with stronger MAO inhibiting activity.
Cats Claw, Astragalus, Fo-ti...
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 25, 2007, at 6:14:56
In reply to Re: Curcumin - HPA axis, posted by linkadge on January 24, 2007, at 19:13:48
> Is curcumin the ingredient responsible for Cox-2 inhibtion?
Yes. It also down-regulates the gene for COX-2.
> If so, the cox inhibiton and MAO inhibiton are inseperable (?)
Looks like, but the COX inhibition is stronger, IMHO.
> Yes, for a few weeks, I ingesteed about 10 grams of curry powder per day.
>
> Around a 60g bottle per week.Whoa! You are quite willing to do these experiments, aren't you? BTW, curry powder is not considered to be a reliable source of curcumin....being a highly variable mixture of spices, including turmeric. I just buy turmeric at the bulk store. I think I estimated a teaspoonful costs 3 cents, or something.
> I do not know if doses this high are critical for an antidepressant response though. I am not a believer in the notion that a certain degree of MAO inhibiton must be achieved for an antidepressant response.I agree. A relative reduction, held stable with long-term dosing, is probably sufficient.
> As you had mentioned before, the anti-inflamitory action may be responsable in part for the psychologial effects of turmeric.It's quite possible that neuroprotective effects are psychologically stabilizing.
> I know you doubt my discriminative abilities, I bet I could tell you the difference between a 1 gram capsule of turmeric, and 1 gram of a substance with equlivilant antinflamitory capacity.I don't doubt you, link. And I think I might be able to do the same thing. We are independent thinkers, and that brings us into opposition. The relative value of various bits and pieces are differentially assessed by the two of us. That's much better than if we preached to a choir.
> Another tip off was that I would get symptoms of mild serotonin syndrome if I combined as little as one gram of turmeric with citalopram.
>
> LinkadgeI never thought of that. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Lar
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 25, 2007, at 12:05:07
In reply to Re: Curcumin - HPA axis, posted by linkadge on January 24, 2007, at 17:01:29
What dosage of curcumin would be optimal for anti-depressant properties? Also, should I spring for the pills ( that are 95% curcumin ) or can I buy a big cheap bag of tumeric at the local indian food store and just take that?
Also, would this in anyway have bad interactions with Lithium?
Thanks,
JB
Posted by dessbee on January 25, 2007, at 13:39:52
In reply to Re: Curcumin - Dosage?, posted by Jimmyboy on January 25, 2007, at 12:05:07
I do not think you need to worry about Lithium since turmeric is not dehydrating like caffeine or alcohol.
Regardless of turmeric or curcumin supplement there seems to be a problem with absorption of curcumin:
Little curcumin, when eaten, is absorbed. 2 grams of curcumin alone resulted in undetectable to very low serum levels. Co-supplementation with 20 mg of piperine (extracted from black pepper) significantly increased the absorption of curcumin by 2000%
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9619120&dopt=Abstract
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 25, 2007, at 13:58:39
In reply to Re: Curcumin - Dosage? » Jimmyboy, posted by dessbee on January 25, 2007, at 13:39:52
Thanks for the tip! I have seen a bottle of that at the vitamin store, I will get some next time i am there.
JB
Posted by dessbee on January 25, 2007, at 14:11:11
In reply to Re: Curcumin - HPA axis » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on January 24, 2007, at 17:13:31
> > Curcumin was probably one of the most effective antidepressants I have tried.
> >
> > Did you see the study that suggested that extracts of curcumin were more effective than fluoxetine at reverseing depressive like behaviors in mice?
> >
> > Lnkadge
>
> Did you use turmeric, or a curcumin extract?
>
> If you do the math, to get 10 mg/kg curcumin, with curcumin at about 3% by weight in turmeric, you'd need 7 grams a day for a 70 kg individual. That's enough to play havoc with COX, but it's unclear what the long-term consequences of that might be.
>
> Lar
>I recalculated and got 23.3 gram of turmeric.
That is alot of turmeric! On average an Indian consumes 2.5 gram of turmeric.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 25, 2007, at 14:50:42
In reply to Re: Curcumin - HPA axis » Larry Hoover, posted by dessbee on January 25, 2007, at 14:11:11
> > If you do the math, to get 10 mg/kg curcumin, with curcumin at about 3% by weight in turmeric, you'd need 7 grams a day for a 70 kg individual. That's enough to play havoc with COX, but it's unclear what the long-term consequences of that might be.
> >
> > Lar
> >
>
> I recalculated and got 23.3 gram of turmeric.
> That is alot of turmeric! On average an Indian consumes 2.5 gram of turmeric.
>Ooops! That'll teach me to pick up my calculator, rather than winging it. That is a very lot of turmeric.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on January 27, 2007, at 13:03:42
In reply to Re: Curcumin - HPA axis » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on January 25, 2007, at 6:14:56
Pardon me, did I say curry powder? I mean turmeric.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.