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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by verne on February 19, 2006, at 11:53:45
Anyone know how to best use Kanna? I have whole leaf and powder.
I've read reports of chewing, ensnufflation, smoking, and ingesting. Nothing about tea though. Chewing a fermented quid seems to be the preferred method.
I thought I would fire up my water pipe today and try smoking it although that may be the most expensive route of ingestion.
I still haven't done anything with my recently-arrove Albizzia bark and flowers. I bought an ounce of very fine bark powder and another ounce of flowers. Looks like high quality, well packaged, and direct from the Orient. I'll start with tea I guess. I can't find any reports of smoking it.
Also have some patchouli leaves which are recommended with holy basil seeds in smoking mixtures. Forget aroma oil, just get an ounce of patchouli leaves and expose to the air. Whoa.
I'm a little desperate to find some sort of treatment for my atypical depression and anxiety. My typical day is alternating between naps and extreme boredom. I simply find no purpose or pleasure in anything. It's no life.
I'm only hanging on for my daughter's sake while making distant "plans" for an exit strategy. I guess that's off my own topic but my dilemna is finding a solution to the excessive sleeping and lack of enjoyment in anything.
I've tried everything but the MAO inhibitors which I'm hesitant about since I have moderately high blood pressure and lots of food allergies. It wouldn't be long before I had a hypertensive crisis (not the way I want to die) with the slightest deviation from the MAO diet.
At least I haven't drank in 26 days. Starting to meditate and read a little but haven't been out of the house for over a week. Back to the boredom and emptiness.
Verne
Posted by nolvas on February 19, 2006, at 13:24:16
In reply to Kanna Albizzia, posted by verne on February 19, 2006, at 11:53:45
Have you checked Erowid?
http://www.erowid.org/plants/kanna/kanna.shtml
I'm thinking of getting some Ashwagandha possibly Jarrow Formulas 8% standardised, strongest there is. Maybe I would get powedered form if I knew quality was good, where to find it and also how to prepare it. Supposed to have been tested with panic disorder patients and most of them had far fewer attacks after a month of using Ashwagandha.
Posted by honeybee on February 19, 2006, at 13:54:42
In reply to Kanna Albizzia, posted by verne on February 19, 2006, at 11:53:45
Dear Verne,
No comment on the Albizzia (I'll leave that to the experts here, which I am not). But I did want to encourage you to hang on for your daughter's sake while you search for a treatment that works. While I've ranged through my own options, it's been the folks who are close to me that have kept me on from day to day. We want you back here, too, to boot...
In the meantime, is this the same stuff that you're talking about? http://www.iamshaman.com/kanna/medical.htm Does the Albizzia form have the same effects? Just curious. Sounds very, very promising. Good luck, and let us know how it works for you.
honeybee
Posted by verne on February 19, 2006, at 19:40:30
In reply to Re: Kanna Albizzia, posted by honeybee on February 19, 2006, at 13:54:42
OOps, meant Kanna AND Albizzia - not a hybrid form.
I tried the kanna in a waterpipe and definitely discerned some sort of "high" but not sure it's the anti-depressant or anti-anxiety herb I'm looking for. It has recreational possibilities but not as everyday treatment. And since oral ingestion isn't recommended (except for chewing) it isn't easy to use. As little as 500mgs can cause nausea if swallowed.
My next experiment will involve the albizzia bark and flowers. I will probably start with tea. I think I need to retire the waterpipe. I really don't care for smoking - except for pot. (which isn't readily available and too illegal around these parts)
Albizzia is considered "chinese prozac" and praised by Dr. Vsant Lad, ayurvedic author, as the best herb for depression. The bark is better for anxiety, the flowers for depression.
I may try some albizzia tonight. The kanna buzz is wearing off. I need to be stronger and more grounded emotionally before I try kanna again.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Verne
Posted by verne on February 19, 2006, at 19:50:46
In reply to Re: Kanna Albizzia, posted by nolvas on February 19, 2006, at 13:24:16
Thanks for the Erowid link - I had somehow missed those posts on an earlier visit to the site.
Ashwagandha is real big in ayurvedic medicine and included in several formulas. It's usually "prescribed" for women and considered a female aphrodiasiac.
Seems like I've seen it mixed with Gotu Kola for depression too. I may revisit ashwagandha and try it by itself. Gotu Kola and many of the other ayurvedic herbs for the mind - like bacopa - don't really agree with me.
Verne
Posted by nolvas on February 19, 2006, at 20:05:50
In reply to Re: Kanna Albizzia » nolvas, posted by verne on February 19, 2006, at 19:50:46
Sorry if Ashwaghanda is a little off topic since it was me that brought it up in this thread...but anyway here is something I've found which may interest you. It's Ashwaghanda they are talking about when they say herb.
"Mental Health Problems. This is perhaps one of the most promising applications of this herb. In a reported study, this herb was given to 30 mental patients suffering from anxiety neurosis in doses of 40 ml/day. (in two equally divided doses.) for one month. At the end of the month, most of the anxiety disorders, panic attacks and similar mood phobias, had disappeared. In trials by American psychiatrists, this herb had been found useful for the treatment of manic depression, alcoholic paranoia, and schizophrenia. Up to 4 capsules were given daily, in between meals, for 45-60 days with very good results. Learning enhancement and memory retention had improved substantially when aswagandha (3 capsules), gotu kola (2 capsules), and ginkgo biloba (2 capsules) were taken regularly on a daily basis."
The quote taken from this page >
http://www.ayurvediccure.com/ashwagandha.htm
Firstly I take anything like this with a pinch of salt since the site is obviously trying to sell Ashwaghanda, but it would be interesting to find out if this study does real exist. The dosage 40 ml/day doesn't really mean a lot to me. It says nothing of the preparation of the plant etc etc. I only ever see Ashwaghanda in pill form for example Jarrow Formulas Sensoril version is 225mg Ashwaghanda standardised to 8% withanolides. I would like to find this study to see how say Jarrow Formulas product relates to the dosage in the study.
Posted by nolvas on February 19, 2006, at 20:14:36
In reply to Re: Kanna Albizzia, posted by nolvas on February 19, 2006, at 20:05:50
Two studies I've found so far >
Neither of which mention anything about 40 ml/day dosage, so they aren't the study I'm looking for. However they do both seem to strongly suggest Ashwaghanda has fairly potent anxiolytic properties.
Posted by verne on February 20, 2006, at 8:15:07
In reply to Re: Kanna Albizzia, posted by nolvas on February 19, 2006, at 20:14:36
Posted by honeybee on February 20, 2006, at 15:31:18
In reply to Re: Kanna Albizzia » nolvas, posted by verne on February 19, 2006, at 19:50:46
Verne,
Keep the info coming! I hope that one of these herbs work for you. I have dreams of coming back to this site and it not existing--because no one needs it anymore!
hb
Posted by nolvas on February 20, 2006, at 17:20:15
In reply to Re: Kanna Albizzia, posted by honeybee on February 20, 2006, at 15:31:18
Sounds good. I'm considering getting the 8% standardised Jarrow Formulas Ashwaghanda from iherb. Strongest I can find. I think it will take a week or so to evaluate it properly. I'm not sure that it has an instant effect will have to see.
Posted by verne on February 20, 2006, at 17:44:18
In reply to Re: Kanna Albizzia, posted by nolvas on February 20, 2006, at 17:20:15
I just ordered the Jarrow and http://www.iherb.com/ashwagandha5.html
The Jarrow is root and leaves - and doesn't say how much is leaf. Roots are typically used but the leaf is reported to have a more hypnotic effect.
The Paradise (link above) ashwagandha is all root extract in vegicaps. I don't think I even digest tablets so I always look for capsules.
After reading more about ashwaganha I'm convinced it will help with anxiety. I also ordered a pound of both powder and bulk from iamshaman.com - it was cheap. They recommend simmering the roots all day in a crock pot.
If ashwaghandha works out I'll order more from 1st Chinese Herbs where I got the Albizzia. Very high quality, judging from the packaging. Also looks like it came straight from the source, somewhere in the Orient.
I know that ashwaghandha (I'm quickly learning to misspell it) agrees with me since it's in numerous ayurvedic formulas I've taken in the past. (I live in an ayurvedic cult in the midwest - "pitta", "vata", and "kapha" are household names around here) I'd buy it a the local organic grocery store - a small supermarket really - but the store is usually so crowded, the people so blissed out, I get a little freaked.
I've never taken large doses of it by itself. And it looks like some studies used very large doses (10 grams or more a day - probably not refined or extracted). Still that's a lot.
Just awoke from another hard day's nap. Guess I'll go cap some albizzia bark and defy gravity for awhile.
Verne
Posted by verne on February 20, 2006, at 19:56:18
In reply to Ashwaghanda » nolvas, posted by verne on February 20, 2006, at 17:44:18
Also ordered http://www.iherb.com/supholybasil.html Anyone try Holy Basil?
Just ingested 20 caps of albizzia bark powder. I capped them myself in "0" caps.
The powder is very fine and light. Tamping the capsules was tricky but I think I ended up with about 500mgs per cap. So I guess I just swallowed 10 grams worth.
I tried 5 caps last night with no ill effect so thought I would see what's under the hood tonight. I'm also steeping some albizzia flower tea. I poured about 8 cups of boiling water over 20 flowerettes.
I hope I'm doing this half-right. I'm simply too depressed to research anything right now.
Verne
Posted by Jai Narayan on February 20, 2006, at 20:12:20
In reply to Holy Basil?, posted by verne on February 20, 2006, at 19:56:18
I have recently been using a product called "Feel good chocolate Diet". I did it to lose weight.
I definitely eat less.It has lots of caffeine: Green tea & Yerba Mate.
but lot's of mellow's too: Rhodiola, Chocolate ext, 5-HTP, L-theanine, and some vitamins and minerals.
I am flying...feel like I'm trippen too.
I can only do one in a day...did two today...yeks, way too much.Jai
hey, Verne good to see your posts.
Posted by verne on February 21, 2006, at 9:51:11
In reply to Re: Holy Basil?Rhodiola?Green tea?5-HTP?, posted by Jai Narayan on February 20, 2006, at 20:12:20
Jai,
I think that the feel-good chocolate formula would make me too jittery. I checked out the ingredients at iherb and it looks like a real thermal mix. (too much pitta for me)
Meanwhile, all I have to show for last night's albizzia bark experiment (10 grams of powder) is diarrhea this morning. I'm expecting a more positive result with the flowers.
The bark wasn't recommended for depression anyway. Fortunately it was less than half the price of the flowers. I may try simmering the bark and steeping it for several hours next time - and take less.
iherb and iamshaman shipped the ashwaghanda yesterday. I'm willing to take it for a month since some studies show full benefit takes awhile.
Verne
Posted by nolvas on February 21, 2006, at 17:43:10
In reply to More on Albizzia Bark » Jai Narayan, posted by verne on February 21, 2006, at 9:51:11
I haven't tried Holy Basil I think Linkadge has. Supposedly good at relieving stress.
Milk Protein Hydrolysate is also supposed to be as effective as benzos for relieving anxiety. There are studies on pubmed that attest to this.
Dolisos Seriane is a product that contains it and also Pro Calm. I will probably try it as it's not too expensive.
Posted by Jai Narayan on February 23, 2006, at 18:08:30
In reply to More on Albizzia Bark » Jai Narayan, posted by verne on February 21, 2006, at 9:51:11
> Jai,
>
> I think that the feel-good chocolate formula would make me too jittery. I checked out the ingredients at iherb and it looks like a real thermal mix. (too much pitta for me)
>
> Meanwhile, all I have to show for last night's albizzia bark experiment (10 grams of powder) is diarrhea this morning. I'm expecting a more positive result with the flowers.
>
> The bark wasn't recommended for depression anyway. Fortunately it was less than half the price of the flowers. I may try simmering the bark and steeping it for several hours next time - and take less.
>
> iherb and iamshaman shipped the ashwaghanda yesterday. I'm willing to take it for a month since some studies show full benefit takes awhile.
>
> Verne
> Jai, I checked out the ingredients at iherb and it looks like a real thermal mix. (too much pitta for me)> Verne
So are you, Verne, predominately Pitta?
I used to be but I really like the shake up now.
Maybe I have slid into Kaphas...
but Pitta describes me so well.Your buddy
Ja*
Posted by verne on February 23, 2006, at 20:27:10
In reply to Re: More on Albizzia Bark, posted by Jai Narayan on February 23, 2006, at 18:08:30
Jai,
I've been diagnosed as Pitta-Kapha. Outwardly, I have mostly pitta traits but my pulse is unmistakably kapha (resting rate of 50 or lower when I was in shape and younger). Usually though I'm prescribed a vata pacifying diet since I'm hopelessly vata-deranged too.
The ashwagandha is really working out. I'm taking rather large doses of both the Jarrow and Paradise formulas at iherb.com I feel less depressed and calmer at the same time.
Have you had much success with ayurvedic medicine? We have a spa near by in Vedic City but my home experimentation is more affordable.
Verne
Posted by nolvas on February 24, 2006, at 4:01:01
In reply to Pitta-Kapha » Jai Narayan, posted by verne on February 23, 2006, at 20:27:10
I've just bought some Ashwagandha yesterday whilst I was in a health food store. It's solgar brand standardised to 1.5% withanolides. There's around 400mg of ashwagandha so 45mg is active contents.
I was feeling panicky yesterday before I had bought the ashwaghanda so I took 2.5mg diazepam which I take quite infrequently. I don't notice much sedation from the diazepam at that dosage but it takes the edge off the anxiety. Later in the day around 4 or 5 hours later I took the Ashwaghanda and this must react with the diazepam and I felt like I had taken a larger dose of diazepam. I woke up this morning a little dizzy feeling but in general ok.
Since diazepam takes a while to get out of your system there's nothing conclusive so far. I have 60 capsules and I have seperated out 30 capsules so I can take a month's worth to judge the effect.
However 1.5% may not be large enough dose. I try and take the lowest effective dose that I can. I will report back later if this stuff is starting to have an effect.
Posted by verne on February 24, 2006, at 7:20:43
In reply to Re: Pitta-Kapha, posted by nolvas on February 24, 2006, at 4:01:01
A good economical source for ashwagandha is http://www.iamshaman.com/ The powder is only $12.99 per pound with 5-10% off with later discounts.
I'm also impressed with http://www.1stchineseherbs.com/ where I got the albizzia. They ask $38.00 a pound for ashwagandha powder but the shipping is free. Their quality is absolutely first-rate.
I'm really noticing a difference with just 4 caps (about a gram) per day of either the Jarrow or Paradise ashwagandha formula. I found it easier to focus, felt more motivated, and calmer. Both have 8% withanolides.
Once I get a little more organized I plan to try several grams of the bulk powder per day. I guess the studies used as much as 30 grams per day.
Meanwhile, albizzia bark was a real bust (wrong tree for barking up). I took a massive dose to no effect. I still have hopes for the flowers though.
Verne
Posted by Jai Narayan on February 24, 2006, at 16:54:05
In reply to Pitta-Kapha » Jai Narayan, posted by verne on February 23, 2006, at 20:27:10
> Jai,
>
> I've been diagnosed as Pitta-Kapha. Outwardly, I have mostly pitta traits but my pulse is unmistakably kapha (resting rate of 50 or lower when I was in shape and younger). Usually though I'm prescribed a vata pacifying diet since I'm hopelessly vata-deranged too.
>
> The ashwagandha is really working out. I'm taking rather large doses of both the Jarrow and Paradise formulas at iherb.com I feel less depressed and calmer at the same time.
>
> Have you had much success with ayurvedic medicine? We have a spa near by in Vedic City but my home experimentation is more affordable.
>
> Verne
> Jai,
>
> I've been diagnosed as Pitta-Kapha. Outwardly, I have mostly pitta traits but my pulse is unmistakably kapha (resting rate of 50 or lower when I was in shape and younger). Usually though I'm prescribed a vata pacifying diet since I'm hopelessly vata-deranged too.
>
> The ashwagandha is really working out. I'm taking rather large doses of both the Jarrow and Paradise formulas at iherb.com I feel less depressed and calmer at the same time.
>
> Have you had much success with ayurvedic medicine? We have a spa near by in Vedic City but my home experimentation is more affordable.
>
> VerneI am Pitta-Vatta. With Pitta much more dominate.
Love the sound of your Vedic City spa.
my desire is to set up something like that in our town.Verne, I have such an open heart feeling toward you...
your posts open me up and make me feel warm and loving.
your nature may be a challenge to you but what I read of your ideas and kind posts makes me a kinder person.my very best to you
Ja*
Posted by nolvas on February 24, 2006, at 18:28:41
In reply to Aswagandha Powder » nolvas, posted by verne on February 24, 2006, at 7:20:43
I've decided to try and do some Maths (notoriously bad at it) and work out how many mg of active ingredients are in each of our products then compare .
The main ingredient seems to be Withanolides. Solgar version I have has >
Standardized Ashwagandha Extract
(root) (withanolides 5 mg [1.5%])
300 mg*
Raw Ashwagandha Powder (root)
100 mg*I make that 4.5mg of withanolides in the standardised 300mg and an unknown amount in the 100mg raw root.
The jarrow formulas has 225mg of 8% withanolides so that's 18mg
the paradise herbs according to iherb is >
Ashwagandha root extract 16:1
(Equivalent to 4,000 mg whole root)
250 mg
1.5% Withanolides
3 mg
So to summarise Solgar has 4.5mg + an unknown amount in the raw herb Im guessing it wont be much maybe 1mg, Jarrow Formulas has 18mg and paradise herbs has 3mg.
It would be interesting to note how many mg you think you are taking Verne, this may establish an effective dosage for the rest of us if we know how much you are taking. Thanks :)
Posted by verne on February 24, 2006, at 19:28:48
In reply to Re: Aswagandha Powder, posted by nolvas on February 24, 2006, at 18:28:41
nolvas, thanks for trying to figure this out.
I'll start keeping better track on Monday. I plan to keep a journal of every last milligram I ingest - especially supplements. I don't know why I need to wait until Monday - may have to do some hard napping on the weekend I guess.
I wish we could find out the bulk powder's strength. Could we use the Paradise formula and extrapolate that 4 grams of powder has ABOUT (big about) 250 milligrams at 1.5% withanolides?
I wonder what was used in the studies. I get the impression that when they talk about 10-30 grams per day they are talking about ordinary ashwagandha powder - not the supercharged or extracted variety.
I could be all wet but it seems like the study would have mentioned any extract or percentage of withanolides if it were anything more than just the ashwagandha powder found on the herbalist's shelf.
And in ayurveda, a tablespoon or more of powder is prescribed in warm milk with honey once or twice a day. Again, just the powder as far as I know. Back in the day, heaping tablespoons and even cups of the stuff was prescribed before they started measuring withanolides. My ex-wife used to take it every day. It was also called Winter Cherry and seemed to be the first ingredient in most ayurvedic formulas.
I'm too depressed - just trying to catch my breath between waves of anxiety - to figure any of this out right now.
I've been trying to take about 6-8 capsules of the Jarrow formula and about 4 caps of the Paradise formula per day. Usually split into a morning and evening dose.
When I feel like my kitchen is organized enough, I plan to break open the pound of powder I got from iamshaman.com I guess I will be converting tablespoons and cups to grams to figure out how much I'm taking then.
Just to complicate things I'm brewing up some albizzia flower tea tonight. I'm done trying to smoke assorted bark, twigs, and foliage in the water pipe.
Verne
Posted by nolvas on February 25, 2006, at 7:36:33
In reply to Re: Ashwagandha Powder » nolvas, posted by verne on February 24, 2006, at 19:28:48
Paradise Formulas is suggesting that 4000mg(4 grams) of Ashwagandha has 3mg of active ingredients (Withanolides)
So 30mg of withanolides would equal 40 grams of Ashwagandha. I worked out that Jarrow Formulas has 18mg of withanolides so two capsules is 36mg which in my reckoning exceeds 40 grams of raw Ashwagandha.
18mg/30mg = 0.6 * 100 = 60%
60% of 40 grams is 0.6 * 40 = 24 grams
So two Jarrow Formulas capsules would give you 18mg * 2 = 36mg and since we know 18mg are in 24 grams we can multiply by 2 so two capsules = 48 grams raw root.
This is all based on Paradise Formulas calculation that 4 grams (250mg extract at 1.5%) gives 3% withanolides.
I really need to lie down now that was a brain buster. If some one with some mathematical skills could check this post I would appreciate it :)
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 25, 2006, at 8:07:55
In reply to Re: Ashwagandha Powder, posted by nolvas on February 25, 2006, at 7:36:33
> Paradise Formulas is suggesting that 4000mg(4 grams) of Ashwagandha has 3mg of active ingredients (Withanolides)
>
> So 30mg of withanolides would equal 40 grams of Ashwagandha. I worked out that Jarrow Formulas has 18mg of withanolides so two capsules is 36mg which in my reckoning exceeds 40 grams of raw Ashwagandha.
>
> 18mg/30mg = 0.6 * 100 = 60%
>
> 60% of 40 grams is 0.6 * 40 = 24 grams
>
> So two Jarrow Formulas capsules would give you 18mg * 2 = 36mg and since we know 18mg are in 24 grams we can multiply by 2 so two capsules = 48 grams raw root.
>
> This is all based on Paradise Formulas calculation that 4 grams (250mg extract at 1.5%) gives 3% withanolides.
>
> I really need to lie down now that was a brain buster. If some one with some mathematical skills could check this post I would appreciate it :)Your calculations are correct, though more complicated (more steps) than the minimum required to solve the puzzle. The point is, your logic here works for you, and your ratios were correctly presented.
Lar
Posted by nolvas on February 25, 2006, at 12:07:59
In reply to Re: Ashwagandha Powder » nolvas, posted by Larry Hoover on February 25, 2006, at 8:07:55
Thanks for checking that. I appreciate it :) Math is n't one of my strongest skills.
I guess as with anything the more you practice the better you get and you learn the shortcuts that get you the same results.
This is the end of the thread.
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