![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 48 to 72 of 228. Go back in thread:
Posted by world citizen on March 9, 2005, at 23:02:45
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » mogger, posted by Elroy on March 9, 2005, at 21:37:43
Okay here is my testimonial! Can I hear an amen?
No really, I've been taking DLPA since '99-00 with blessed effects on both chronic pain and depression. I began taking Selegiline in '02. I've been taking 5mgs approx. one half hour after taking my DLPA, B6, vit.c and some form of simple carbohydrat. I take the Selegiline with a good amount of protein. Sometimes when I get distracted by the world at large I forget to take it for a while, sometimes weeks at a time. Yes, I can definately tell the difference when I take it. The thing is, it's very easy for me to think that I don't need it anymore due to the fact that it stays in the brain (in decreasing concentration) for about 2 weeks, as is the customary way of MAOIs. So one can still get the benefits without taking it every day, or without worrying about missing a day! BUT! Every day that goes by the confusion increases and sorrow grows.
I had horrible side effects with both tricyclic and SSRI antidepressants. I can't say I've noticed any side effects with Selegiline
AND! I've been taking the TMG for a few weeks (in addition to my other suppliments) I feel great! I'm going through one of the most stressful times in my life but I'm handling it. I must say I give a good percentage of the credit for my progress to God in the many ways He provides guidance (including Selegiline!)
World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on March 9, 2005, at 23:10:02
In reply to Selegiline, therapeutic dose for depression?, posted by mogger on March 9, 2005, at 19:26:36
I agree with Elroy, I think that's WAY to high a dose. Has your sister been profoundly depressed or what? At that dose is when the whole question of the tyromine problem comes up. If you go to the sites that Elroy reccomended then surely you could come up with some quotes from individuals with a sufficient amount of initials following their names. Have your sister take that in to the MD so he/she can continue his/her medical education!!!!!!!!!!
Just because someone has a license to practice medicine this doesn't guarantee that they were an A student in medical school!
World Citizen
Posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:13:11
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » mogger, posted by Elroy on March 9, 2005, at 21:37:43
Thanks so much for your thoughts, I will discuss it with her doctor. Are the amino acids critical or will she have positive effects even without the amino acids?
mogger
Posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:45:15
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on February 19, 2005, at 2:02:23
world citizen,
do you have to take the amino acid to get benefits from selegiline or can you feel some benefits on it's own? many thanks,
mogger
Posted by KaraS on March 10, 2005, at 2:55:10
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » mogger, posted by Elroy on March 9, 2005, at 21:37:43
Elroy,
Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
Kara
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 11:42:42
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:45:15
Mogger,that information is not accessable to me at the moment. If you email joe@dancesafe.org and ask him he'll be able to bring some clarity to this issue for you.
World Citizenps when I find out I'll email you with it immediately, in the meantime please email joe.
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 12:40:52
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:45:15
Hey Mogger,
according to Dr. Bob at www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel your sister might do well to consume some high quality whey protein 20 min. prior to taking the Selegiline. The site above has extensive information about enhancing the effect of S.WARNING! Anyone subject to drug testing may test positive for methamphetamine while taking Selegiline as meth is a weak metabolite of Selegeline (no buzz).
World Citizen
Posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 13:17:40
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 12:40:52
Thanks for the input World Citizen, I am checking that site out now.
moggger
Posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 20:46:10
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 10, 2005, at 2:55:10
Kara,
Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.> Elroy,
>
> Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
>
> Kara
Posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:16:20
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by mogger on March 10, 2005, at 1:13:11
The DPLA - or at least the L-phenylalanine amino acid - is critical in this combination. The DPLA basically (and this is a real thumbnail sketch type of summarization) releases the dopamine and PEA and the (very low dose) selegiline simply keeps the dopamine and PEA active in the brain much longer than they normally would be. OEA especially has a very short half-life in the brain... something like less than a minute (unless the deprenyl is present).
Some people do better with one dose in the morning only. Others do better with half the dose in the morning and half the dose in very early afternoon. Not good to take it later int eh day only because it can be quite energizing and create some sleep problems if taken too late.
I have also read some material that also taking L-Theanine (during day), GABA (during the day), TMG (or samE "sammy", but TMG does the same thing cheaper) and 5-HTP(taking the 5-HTP on empty stomach at bedtime) all are also helpful in improving the effects of the deprenyl and creating a situation where brain neurotransmitters are balanced.
Find a copy of the book "The Edge Effect" by Doctor Eric Braverman and read it thoroughly for a much better understanding of the aspects of the brain's neurotransmitters, correcting deficiencies in brain neurotranmitters, and balancing and optimizing them.
I believe that it goes a long way towards explaining why SSRIs (serotonin) simply don't work on a lot of people or aren't that effective over the long haul. If one has a primarily GABA deficiency and mild serotonin deficiency then taking SSRI type ADs will provide a little help, but overall not much... which would only make sense since the GABA deficiency isn't being addressed!
The "Edge Effect" has a comprehensive test in it that you can take to pretty fairly determine your neurotransmitter dominance. And then another one to determine your neurotransmitter deciciecy (or deficiencies).
I took them and found that I had a dopamine dominant brain and primary deficiencies in Dopamine and secondarily in GABA with mild deficiency in Acetylcholine and almost NONE in serotonin.
So SSRIs wouldn't make much sense in my situation (and has NOT worked well the couple times tried), but the recently taken deprenyl / DPLA / B6 combination has worked wonders... as it should seeing as how there apparently was a serious dopamine deficiency!
Interestingly Xanax works thru GABA pathways, but I have recently (yesterday) been started on Neurontin for some neuropathic pain relief and it works even more strongly on the GABA system so may very well end up being able to wean completely off the Xanax while on the Neurontin.
Ideally - as Braverman discusses in his book - through proper supplementation via concentrated nutrients one can get to that state where deficiencies are corrected, and balancing and optimizing is going on... and meds can be either completely dropped or at least significantly minimized!
> Thanks so much for your thoughts, I will discuss it with her doctor. Are the amino acids critical or will she have positive effects even without the amino acids?
> mogger
Posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:29:45
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 12:40:52
Can't get that link to open up to anything....
Is that the full link?
www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel
Does not seem to have a proper "ending"....
Another good site describing proper syupplementations to consider in more strictly anxiety / panic attack type situations:
http://www.restoreunity.org/panic_attacks.htm
Some others:
http://www.restoreunity.org/blocking_reabsorption_of_seroton.htm
> Hey Mogger,
> according to Dr. Bob at www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel your sister might do well to consume some high quality whey protein 20 min. prior to taking the Selegiline. The site above has extensive information about enhancing the effect of S.
>
> WARNING! Anyone subject to drug testing may test positive for methamphetamine while taking Selegiline as meth is a weak metabolite of Selegeline (no buzz).
> World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:27:08
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:29:45
Hey Elroy,
Okay I guess I left out some crucial bits of information. I hope this will get you there:www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel/.htm
I'm not sure if the dot preceding htm should be there or not, I wrote it down.I hope you're doing well.
World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:41:16
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:16:20
Elroy, you will DEFINATELY be able to wean from Xanax if you're taking Neurontin. That is exactly how I did it before. Did they do a liver panel? Neurontin can be very hard on the liver. You might was to get some "Liver Guard" from Source Naturals.
I can't tell you how thrilled I am to hear that someone else has tried and is having such a good response to DLPA/Selegiline etc.
I wonder how many posters at this site are aware that the pharmaceutical industry is trying to make supplements unavailable over the counter (not unlike what recently occured in the EU)? You guys think it couldn't happen here? I guess it would be advisable for someone who is internet savvy (hint, hint) to post some information about this so we know what's likely to be on the horizon and what we can do about it!!!!!!!!!
World Citizen
Posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 20:46:10
Hi Elroy,
Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
K
> Kara,
>
> Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
>
> Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
>
> It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
>
> I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
>
>
>
>
> I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
>
> > Elroy,
> >
> > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> >
> > Kara
>
>
Posted by world citizen on March 11, 2005, at 11:31:48
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.
I'm glad the Doxepin is helping, the stuff made me gain 30 lbs.
World Citizen
Posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 13:59:46
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by world citizen on March 11, 2005, at 11:31:48
>
> Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.
>
> SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.
>
> I'm glad the Doxepin is helping, the stuff made me gain 30 lbs.
>
> World Citizen
Thanks for your concern. I am well aware that selegiline is an MAOI but it is selective for MAO-B at dosage of 5 mg. Others here have combined it with 25 mg. of a tricyclic. I tend to be very cautious and so have avoided the combination so far.In addition, although full MAOIs are said to be contraindicated with tricylics, some people on the meds board are currently combining the two. SLS is taking 70 mg. of Parnate along with 100 mg. of nortriptyline. It's the more serotonergic TCAs such as clomipramine that the are the most dangerous to combine.
Yes, the pounds are starting to pile on. I'm trying to watch myself carefully but it's not easy.
k
Posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 18:54:01
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:27:08
Still cannot get that link to open, having tried several different combinations.
Hmmm....
Anyway, had a couple of good first days with the Neurotin, in fact... very good, but today it seemed like some of the neuropathy type pains are coming back. Just very slightly, but enough that I could occasional notice... but, wow!, it was like I didn't notice any neuropathy pains at all the first two days and there was ZERO anxiety.
BTW, I have really just started (also) the Selegiline combo - and have been going very, very conservatively with the Selegiline/DPLA (5mg and 250mg with 50mg B6) as I am very concerned about it creating any additional anxiety right now.
>
>
> Hey Elroy,
> Okay I guess I left out some crucial bits of information. I hope this will get you there:www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel/.htm
> I'm not sure if the dot preceding htm should be there or not, I wrote it down.
>
> I hope you're doing well.
> World Citizen
Posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 20:25:09
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
No, just to make sure that there's no misunderstanding, what the sales rep advised me - and the online literature has confirmed - is that the lower setting is for therapeutic response to anxiety (and insomnia) and that the higher setting is for depression and balancing the brain's neurotransmitters.
What I have found with my limited use so far (like three days with trying to hit twice a day w/ higher setting for 30 minutes each and one 30 minute session with lower setting at bedtime) is as follows:
My frustration is with the lower setting in that even with this second unit they sent that I don't feel it working. I put it on my wife and turned it up slightly and she felt it immediately. We did several runs with it and she couldn't see when I was turning it up or not and shje clearly felt it every time. I also put the electrodes on my tongue and at full power could then very, very faintly make out pulses! I don't know if my nerves have become really desensitized from my very high cortisol levels? Or, I should say formerly very high levels as I have been successful to getting those levels down to where they are just above the maximum end of the "normal reference range". Back in September my levels were almost SIX times the max of that range!
Anyway, so far (three days?) I have noticed that the higher range of the CES does seem to basically have a calming effect, a smoothing out effect. Now I am using it while also on Xanax and Neutrontin so it's not like there's a major anxiety crisis for it to address at this point. As to what the lower range might be doing, I'm just not sure it's having that much of an effect with me or not.
What I do look at as being possibly beneficial - and worth it no matter what may turn out in the other areas - is that if it does have the positive effect Dr. Braverman talks about in balancing the brain's neurotransmitters (???).
Also....
At this point, not really sure what I'm going to do with the Selegiline. I had a less than optimal day with the neurontin today - after having a couple of great days. On those "great days" I had almost no neuropathy type pain that I could notice, my feet - which are usally icy cold to the point of being painful - actually felt okay, and even felt warm at times! And, even more amazing, there was like no anxiety at all.. all day long! And slept great.
Then today I had like some background jitteriness type anxiety for most of the day. And it seemed like once it started that I began noticing some slight return of the neuropathy symptoms and some coldness to my feet again.
Hmmm.... what was the deal, what was going on differently?
And my wife then made an interesting observation.
She pointed out that from the start of all this (which has only been since June of 2004), that my PRIMARY problems have been elevated cortisol (and the physical/emotional/mental problems caused by same), the neuropathy type pains (more and more believed to have been developed by the high cortisol and "kept alive" by the anxiety), and the severely severe anxiety.... and that any depression has always been much milder and seems to simply exist from being depressed at all the crap I'm going through!
When she mentioned that it hit me that the first day on the neurontin I had not only the pain relief but also the complete lack of anxiety... and that there was ZERO depression. Now I can't claim that first day to any effect of the Selegiline / DLPA combo as that was the day before I started it.
Now after having been on the Selegiline / DLPA a couple of days I have a "down day". Granted absolutely NO depression, but a naggling return of a touch of anxiety - AND the touch of neuropathy pains....
Hmmm.....
Coincidence?
Or is the Selegiline combo creating just enough extra energy (which to someone that is sensitive in that direction then turns into anxiety)? And that extra "chemically induced" anxiety just enough to slightly overpower the neurontin effects?
Boy, I don't know. Was today just coincidentally a "down day". After all, I have been on neither the neurontin or the selegiline combo long enough to have their primary effects build up fully.
But then if the selegiline IS somehow being counter-effective to the neurontin - especially as experienced in the initial couple days - well, maybe continuing the selegiline experiment at this point is being counterproductive.
As my wife pointed out, my primary problem has always been severe anxiety as versus depression. In fact, from June '04 until about late October of '04 it was strictly anxiety with depression gradually entering the picture as it seemed more and more like the med docs and the psy docs just didn't know for sure what was going on....
> Hi Elroy,
>
> Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
>
> I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
>
> I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
>
> Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
>
> K
>
>
> > Kara,
> >
> > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> >
> > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> >
> > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> >
> > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> >
> > > Elroy,
> > >
> > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > >
> > > Kara
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 20:52:48
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
Hey....
Check out the chart at: http://qualitycounts.com/fpdopamine.htm
The one titled: "Neurotransmitters in Various Disorders"
Notice that dopamine (the key neurotransmitter in the selegiline combo) is indicated as NOT being an involved neurotransmitter (i.e, one that is deficient ) in the various disorders that are related to anxiety? For example, "General Anxiety Disorder", Panic, OCD, and Phobias"... but IS an involved neurotransmitter in depressions, addictions, etc?
I wish that the chart would have shown where GABA and Acetylcholine fit into the picture with those disorders.
Am starting to think that since my primary problem has always been anxiety and that my two best results to date have been with Xanax and Neurontin - which are both GABA influencing medications - and have problems with seroronin influencing agents (SSRI Lexapro) and combined serotonin and Norepinephrine influencing agents (SSRI and SSNRI Effexor and Cymbalta) that maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree with addressing a possibly non exitant dopamine deficiency peroblem???
Hmmm....
Starting to think about cutting out the selegilinecombo for several days (two weeks) and staying just with the Neurontin and Xanax and evaluate it. If it erturns to how it was the first couple of days with the neurontin... well, why would it be that I would even need to take the selegiline combo??? I mean, unless I wanted to keep taking the deprenyl by itself at about 2 x 5mg weekly just for longevity /cognitive effects???
If I feel that a problem continues with the presence of a depression factor, I can always add the selegiline combo back in, eh? But addressing tactics to combat the primary problems first (high cortisol, severe anxiety, high neuropathy pains) only seems to make sense. If a secondary factor (like depression) still remains present then I can adderess that separately when I get to that fork in the road....
> Hi Elroy,
>
> Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
>
> I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
>
> I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
>
> Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
>
> K
>
>
> > Kara,
> >
> > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> >
> > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> >
> > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> >
> > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> >
> > > Elroy,
> > >
> > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > >
> > > Kara
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 21:32:10
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
Couple of sites to check out concerning GABA.....
http://www.vcu-cme.org/gaba/gaba2_22.pdf
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/73/88950.htm
Did you say that you had tried Neurontin but had problems with it? Adverse side effects? Too swedating, maybe? The first two days on it - and the very first day was before I started the Selegiline combo - I had a ton of energy and vitality (so I can't credit that first day to the selegiline combo), but today there were two different times where I just couldn't keep my eyes open for anything!Some of the reviews that I've read have indicated that several people had the symptoms fade out after the first few days....
Trying to find an easy way to increase GABA levels in the brain. GABA - the amino acid - is really cheap when bought in bulk, but GABA as an amino acid ahs a very hard time crossing thru the brain's blood barrier.
See: http://www.raysahelian.com/gaba.html
QUOTE: GABA is made in the brain from the amino acid glutamate with the aid of vitamin B6. GABA is available as a supplement in vitamin stores, but taking it in pill form is not always an effective way to raise brain levels of this neurotransmitter because GABA cannot easily cross the blood-brain barrier. Companies are searching for ways to place GABA in an oil base in order to ease its entry across this barrier. END QUOTE
QUOTE: GABA pharmacology-what prospects for the future? Biochem Pharmacol. 2004 Oct 15;68(8):1537-40.
Following the recognition of GABA as an inhibitory neurotransmitter, the discovery of high affinity GABA uptake, and the characterisation of GABA receptors great progress has been made in developing GABA pharmacology. Tiagabide, the first marketed GABA uptake inhibitor may be followed by new and more selective uptake inhibitors. Knowledge of the molecular pharmacology of GABA-A receptors, both synaptic and non-synaptic, may lead to improved anti-anxiety/anticonvulsant agents devoid of the sedative and dependence liabilities of earlier compounds and new hypnotics. Gaboxadol (THIP) is an example of a novel hypnotic that acts on GABA-A receptors by a non-benzodiazepine mechanism. Exploiting neurosteroid interactions with GABAergic mechanisms also holds much future promise. END QUOTEPossible modification that does easily cross the brain barrier?
http://www.antiaging-systems.net/picamilone-info.htm
http://www.horizonnutra.com/lpyro.html
http://www.thebullmagazine.com/magmain.php?issueID=4&pageID=65
Also, and this is interesting, but I definitely recall reading in a book on anxiety somewhere that we also have GABA receptors not only located in our brain, but in our stomach and chest areas... so maybe oral consumption of GABA does have some non brain related beneficial actions?
Posted by gromit on March 11, 2005, at 22:58:59
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by world citizen on March 11, 2005, at 11:31:48
>
> Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.
>
> SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.I've been taking 10 mg selegiline with trazodone 25 mg for about 2 weeks now. I also take vicodin, officially for a torn rotator cuff but really as an AD, it doesn't help my pain much anymore. It does seem to make the vicodin more potent but maybe it's just my imagination.
I researched this as much as I could, a lot of the technical stuff I don't understand, it seemed there might be a small risk but my doses are pretty low. Anyway I haven't keeled yet but YMMV.
Rick
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 1:09:54
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 20:25:09
Hi Elroy,
Thanks for explaining further about the CES. I understand better now. If it can, in fact, balance neurotransmitters as Dr. Braverman claims, then it would seem to be a good investment. I would really like to hear how Franco Neuro is doing on Dr. Braverman's program. Hopefully he'll post his progress in the near future.
I think that you have been trying too many different things at once. It's too hard to know what is causing what and, in the long-term what is helping. Since your primary problems are anxiety and neuropathy (due to increased cortisol), then it makes sense to temporarily put the selegiline aside. You can then figure out what the Neurontin is doing on its own. As you know, medications change in their side effects as your body adjusts to them so the response you get to Neurontin could be very different a month from now than the first couple of days on it.
I tried Neurontin many years ago to help with sleep. I don't remember it all that well except that it made me feel really sick. I only took a small amount for a night or two and never tried it again.
At any rate, it sounds like you're on the right path since your cortisol levels have gone down.
Take care,
Kara
> No, just to make sure that there's no misunderstanding, what the sales rep advised me - and the online literature has confirmed - is that the lower setting is for therapeutic response to anxiety (and insomnia) and that the higher setting is for depression and balancing the brain's neurotransmitters.
>
> What I have found with my limited use so far (like three days with trying to hit twice a day w/ higher setting for 30 minutes each and one 30 minute session with lower setting at bedtime) is as follows:
>
> My frustration is with the lower setting in that even with this second unit they sent that I don't feel it working. I put it on my wife and turned it up slightly and she felt it immediately. We did several runs with it and she couldn't see when I was turning it up or not and shje clearly felt it every time. I also put the electrodes on my tongue and at full power could then very, very faintly make out pulses! I don't know if my nerves have become really desensitized from my very high cortisol levels? Or, I should say formerly very high levels as I have been successful to getting those levels down to where they are just above the maximum end of the "normal reference range". Back in September my levels were almost SIX times the max of that range!
>
> Anyway, so far (three days?) I have noticed that the higher range of the CES does seem to basically have a calming effect, a smoothing out effect. Now I am using it while also on Xanax and Neutrontin so it's not like there's a major anxiety crisis for it to address at this point. As to what the lower range might be doing, I'm just not sure it's having that much of an effect with me or not.
>
> What I do look at as being possibly beneficial - and worth it no matter what may turn out in the other areas - is that if it does have the positive effect Dr. Braverman talks about in balancing the brain's neurotransmitters (???).
>
> Also....
>
> At this point, not really sure what I'm going to do with the Selegiline. I had a less than optimal day with the neurontin today - after having a couple of great days. On those "great days" I had almost no neuropathy type pain that I could notice, my feet - which are usally icy cold to the point of being painful - actually felt okay, and even felt warm at times! And, even more amazing, there was like no anxiety at all.. all day long! And slept great.
>
> Then today I had like some background jitteriness type anxiety for most of the day. And it seemed like once it started that I began noticing some slight return of the neuropathy symptoms and some coldness to my feet again.
>
> Hmmm.... what was the deal, what was going on differently?
>
> And my wife then made an interesting observation.
>
> She pointed out that from the start of all this (which has only been since June of 2004), that my PRIMARY problems have been elevated cortisol (and the physical/emotional/mental problems caused by same), the neuropathy type pains (more and more believed to have been developed by the high cortisol and "kept alive" by the anxiety), and the severely severe anxiety.... and that any depression has always been much milder and seems to simply exist from being depressed at all the crap I'm going through!
>
> When she mentioned that it hit me that the first day on the neurontin I had not only the pain relief but also the complete lack of anxiety... and that there was ZERO depression. Now I can't claim that first day to any effect of the Selegiline / DLPA combo as that was the day before I started it.
>
> Now after having been on the Selegiline / DLPA a couple of days I have a "down day". Granted absolutely NO depression, but a naggling return of a touch of anxiety - AND the touch of neuropathy pains....
>
> Hmmm.....
>
> Coincidence?
>
> Or is the Selegiline combo creating just enough extra energy (which to someone that is sensitive in that direction then turns into anxiety)? And that extra "chemically induced" anxiety just enough to slightly overpower the neurontin effects?
>
> Boy, I don't know. Was today just coincidentally a "down day". After all, I have been on neither the neurontin or the selegiline combo long enough to have their primary effects build up fully.
>
> But then if the selegiline IS somehow being counter-effective to the neurontin - especially as experienced in the initial couple days - well, maybe continuing the selegiline experiment at this point is being counterproductive.
>
> As my wife pointed out, my primary problem has always been severe anxiety as versus depression. In fact, from June '04 until about late October of '04 it was strictly anxiety with depression gradually entering the picture as it seemed more and more like the med docs and the psy docs just didn't know for sure what was going on....
>
>
>
> > Hi Elroy,
> >
> > Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
> >
> > I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
> >
> > I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
> >
> > Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
> >
> > K
> >
> >
> > > Kara,
> > >
> > > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> > >
> > > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> > >
> > > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> > >
> > > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> > >
> > > > Elroy,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > > >
> > > > Kara
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 1:32:13
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 20:52:48
Hi,
That's a very useful chart. I wonder why Braverman doesn't address norepinephrine in his book. OTOH, he does address GABA and acetylcholine. Usually charts and articles about depression and anxiety tend to address dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin but not GABA or acetylcholine.What has been your problem with SSRIs and SNRIs? I don't remember if you've discussed this earlier, but did the Braverman tests show that you have a serotonin deficiency at all? I ask because the link to the chart you posted shows serotonin deficiency as being involved in all the various types of anxiety problems.
I have been on SSRIs/SNRIs for many years. They helped my anxiety immensely. Lately however, I have been in an extremely anxious depression (couldn't eat or sleep or even sit still - also having panic attacks and becoming agoraphobic). Since I was so anxious and my system so sensitive, I have not been able to tolerate these meds at all recently when I tried to go back on them. The smallest amount of Effexor sent me up the wall. Zoloft wasn't much better. I'm wondering if the same might be true for you - that you might be able to tolerate this class of meds once your anxiety is better under control.
In terms of your question about addressing a possible dopamine problem, you probably have no way of knowing for certain whether you could benefit from selegiline without giving it a full trial (unless maybe QEEG could tell you that).
K
> Hey....
>
> Check out the chart at: http://qualitycounts.com/fpdopamine.htm
>
> The one titled: "Neurotransmitters in Various Disorders"
>
> Notice that dopamine (the key neurotransmitter in the selegiline combo) is indicated as NOT being an involved neurotransmitter (i.e, one that is deficient ) in the various disorders that are related to anxiety? For example, "General Anxiety Disorder", Panic, OCD, and Phobias"... but IS an involved neurotransmitter in depressions, addictions, etc?
>
> I wish that the chart would have shown where GABA and Acetylcholine fit into the picture with those disorders.
>
> Am starting to think that since my primary problem has always been anxiety and that my two best results to date have been with Xanax and Neurontin - which are both GABA influencing medications - and have problems with seroronin influencing agents (SSRI Lexapro) and combined serotonin and Norepinephrine influencing agents (SSRI and SSNRI Effexor and Cymbalta) that maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree with addressing a possibly non exitant dopamine deficiency peroblem???
>
> Hmmm....
>
> Starting to think about cutting out the selegilinecombo for several days (two weeks) and staying just with the Neurontin and Xanax and evaluate it. If it erturns to how it was the first couple of days with the neurontin... well, why would it be that I would even need to take the selegiline combo??? I mean, unless I wanted to keep taking the deprenyl by itself at about 2 x 5mg weekly just for longevity /cognitive effects???
>
> If I feel that a problem continues with the presence of a depression factor, I can always add the selegiline combo back in, eh? But addressing tactics to combat the primary problems first (high cortisol, severe anxiety, high neuropathy pains) only seems to make sense. If a secondary factor (like depression) still remains present then I can adderess that separately when I get to that fork in the road....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Elroy,
> >
> > Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
> >
> > I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
> >
> > I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
> >
> > Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
> >
> > K
> >
> >
> > > Kara,
> > >
> > > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> > >
> > > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> > >
> > > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> > >
> > > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> > >
> > > > Elroy,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > > >
> > > > Kara
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 1:55:50
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 21:32:10
Hi again,
You've got me thinking more about GABA. Even though I have so many problems with anxiety, I was concentrating more on serotonin. The main reason for that being that serotonergic meds would completely control my anxiety and help a little with depression (though there was plenty of room for improvement with depression.) Other reasons were my experience with Neurontin and the difficulty of getting supplements past the BBB (as you indicated in your post).
I have Picamilon at home. I've tried it a couple of times. It had a very mild effect. I guess you have to take it consistently 3 times a day for 30 days to get the full effect. Then you're supposed to go off of it for a month or so as tolerance is easily developed. I haven't given it a full trial yet. Because of the fact that you can't use it continually, it seems to be more of an adjunctive therapy - not something you can rely on all of the time.
I'll have to take the Braverman test and see what it says about my GABA situation.
Again, your good response to Neurontin would seem to indicate that you're on the right track here.
K
> Couple of sites to check out concerning GABA.....
>
> http://www.vcu-cme.org/gaba/gaba2_22.pdf
>
> http://my.webmd.com/content/article/73/88950.htm
>
>
> Did you say that you had tried Neurontin but had problems with it? Adverse side effects? Too swedating, maybe? The first two days on it - and the very first day was before I started the Selegiline combo - I had a ton of energy and vitality (so I can't credit that first day to the selegiline combo), but today there were two different times where I just couldn't keep my eyes open for anything!
>
> Some of the reviews that I've read have indicated that several people had the symptoms fade out after the first few days....
>
> Trying to find an easy way to increase GABA levels in the brain. GABA - the amino acid - is really cheap when bought in bulk, but GABA as an amino acid ahs a very hard time crossing thru the brain's blood barrier.
>
> See: http://www.raysahelian.com/gaba.html
>
> QUOTE: GABA is made in the brain from the amino acid glutamate with the aid of vitamin B6. GABA is available as a supplement in vitamin stores, but taking it in pill form is not always an effective way to raise brain levels of this neurotransmitter because GABA cannot easily cross the blood-brain barrier. Companies are searching for ways to place GABA in an oil base in order to ease its entry across this barrier. END QUOTE
>
> QUOTE: GABA pharmacology-what prospects for the future? Biochem Pharmacol. 2004 Oct 15;68(8):1537-40.
> Following the recognition of GABA as an inhibitory neurotransmitter, the discovery of high affinity GABA uptake, and the characterisation of GABA receptors great progress has been made in developing GABA pharmacology. Tiagabide, the first marketed GABA uptake inhibitor may be followed by new and more selective uptake inhibitors. Knowledge of the molecular pharmacology of GABA-A receptors, both synaptic and non-synaptic, may lead to improved anti-anxiety/anticonvulsant agents devoid of the sedative and dependence liabilities of earlier compounds and new hypnotics. Gaboxadol (THIP) is an example of a novel hypnotic that acts on GABA-A receptors by a non-benzodiazepine mechanism. Exploiting neurosteroid interactions with GABAergic mechanisms also holds much future promise. END QUOTE
>
> Possible modification that does easily cross the brain barrier?
>
> http://www.antiaging-systems.net/picamilone-info.htm
>
> http://www.horizonnutra.com/lpyro.html
>
> http://www.thebullmagazine.com/magmain.php?issueID=4&pageID=65
>
> Also, and this is interesting, but I definitely recall reading in a book on anxiety somewhere that we also have GABA receptors not only located in our brain, but in our stomach and chest areas... so maybe oral consumption of GABA does have some non brain related beneficial actions?
>
>
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 2:07:02
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by gromit on March 11, 2005, at 22:58:59
> >
> > Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.
> >
> > SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.
>
> I've been taking 10 mg selegiline with trazodone 25 mg for about 2 weeks now. I also take vicodin, officially for a torn rotator cuff but really as an AD, it doesn't help my pain much anymore. It does seem to make the vicodin more potent but maybe it's just my imagination.
>
> I researched this as much as I could, a lot of the technical stuff I don't understand, it seemed there might be a small risk but my doses are pretty low. Anyway I haven't keeled yet but YMMV.
>
>
> Rick
>
Hi Rick,Thanks for the info. Good to know that you've been able to use trazadone with low dose selegiline. I think that Larry took 25 mg. of trimipramine with 5 mg. of selegiline without a problem (although trimipramine is supposedly the safest TCA to combine with an MAOI). Ktemene is taking a full 60 mg. of Remeron with 10 mg. of selegiline. I took 5 mg. of selegiline with a small amount of Effexor (37.5 mg. I think) a couple of times but was too afraid to combine them consistently.
K
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