![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 17:47:26
Couple of articles on recent new study:
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/100/105807
Study Shows Supplement To Be as Effective as Paxil
"New research shows the herbal supplement St. John's Wort to be as effective as one of the most popular prescription antidepressants for treating both moderate and severe depression... Some studies have shown that St. John's Wort might be useful in treating mild to moderate degrees of depression. However, prior studies have not shown it to be useful in the treatment of major depression... The researchers treated 251 patients with major depression with either a standard dose of the St. John's Wort extract (900 milligrams a day) or the antidepressant Paxil (20 milligrams a day)... At the end of six weeks, 71% of the patients taking St. John's Wort and 60% of those taking Paxil had responded to treatment. Half of the St. John's Wort-treated patients and 35% of the Paxil-treated patients were free of depression symptoms... "
Also at:
http://www.npicenter.com/anm/templates/newsATemp.aspx?articleid=11690&zoneid=41
"According to a randomized, double-blind, peference-controlled clinical study published today in the prestigious British Medical Journal, the proprietary St. John's Wort extract WS(R) 5570 is at least as effective in treating depression and better tolerated by patients than the widely prescribed anti-depressant paroxetine.(1)... "This study shows that WS(R) 5570 is at least equally effective and better tolerated than one of the leading synthetic antidepressants," says Professor Armid Szegedi, principal investigator of the study. "It therefore represents a real alternative in the treatment of depression."... In the U.S., an identical strength version of WS(R) 5570 is sold as a natural dietary supplement for promoting a positive mood, rather than a drug for the treatment of depression. This extract (WS(R) 5572) contains the same patented, standardized and stabilized hyperforin content as WS(R) 5570, and is marketed as Perika(R) St. John's Wort by Nature's Way Products, Inc., Springville, Utah. Perika(R) is available nationwide at health and nutrition retail outlets... WS(R) 5570 and WS(R) 5572 are patented extracts developed and produced by Dr. Willmar Schwabe Pharmaceuticals, Karlsruhe, Germany. They are uniquely standardized to hyperforin, the key constituent within St. John's Wort responsible for its mood balancing effect. The patent also ensures long-term stability of the hyperforin content.
Posted by ravenstorm on February 17, 2005, at 11:28:26
In reply to St. John's Wort Useful for Severe Depression, posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 17:47:26
So, how would you get the specific formulations used in the study. One of the links you provided indicated that these were special formulations and the results could not be extrapolated to regular SJW products on the shelves.
Posted by Elroy on February 17, 2005, at 11:53:07
In reply to Re: St. John's Wort Useful for Severe Depression, posted by ravenstorm on February 17, 2005, at 11:28:26
I noted that towards the bottom of my intitial posting, plus the best online price that I could find for the identical formulation as retailed in the US.
See:
In the U.S., an identical strength version of WS(R) 5570 is sold as a natural dietary supplement for promoting a positive mood, rather than a drug for the treatment of depression. This extract (WS(R) 5572) contains the same patented, standardized and stabilized hyperforin content as WS(R) 5570, and is marketed as "PERIKA" - St. John's Wort by Nature's Way Products, Inc., Springville, Utah. Perika(R) is available nationwide at health and nutrition retail outlets... WS(R) 5570 and WS(R) 5572 are patented extracts developed and produced by Dr. Willmar Schwabe Pharmaceuticals, Karlsruhe, Germany. They are uniquely standardized to hyperforin, the key constituent within St. John's Wort responsible for its mood balancing effect. The patent also ensures long-term stability of the hyperforin content.
NOTE THIS LINK:
If someone knows of better price - or a way to obtain wholesale, that would be great!Elroy
> So, how would you get the specific formulations used in the study. One of the links you provided indicated that these were special formulations and the results could not be extrapolated to regular SJW products on the shelves.
Posted by Chris O on February 17, 2005, at 11:59:29
In reply to St. John's Wort Useful for Severe Depression, posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 17:47:26
I'd love to believe the results of this study but...my experience with St. John's and SSRIs tells me otherwise. I have not tried the Nature's Way Perika brand, but have tried many other brands of St. John's with only the mildest of relief from my depression and anxiety. SSRIs, on the other hand, with all their faults, do at least provide me with moderate relief from the symptoms of anxiety and depression. I'd be curious to know if anyone on these boards has experienced signficant long-term relief of depression and/or anxiety on the Perika St. John's wort. Has anyone?
Posted by ravenstorm on February 17, 2005, at 12:13:25
In reply to Anyone here benefitting from Perika SJW? » Elroy, posted by Chris O on February 17, 2005, at 11:59:29
Posted by Elroy on February 17, 2005, at 13:52:06
In reply to Anyone here benefitting from Perika SJW? » Elroy, posted by Chris O on February 17, 2005, at 11:59:29
Well, that's the whole point of studies, is that they are scientific studies to determine certain specific points. If you notice, neither group (SJW extract version OR the Paxil) had anywhere near a 100% positive effect within the groups.
I would imagine that's because both substances primarily work on the serotonin neurotransmitters. As spelled out in Dr. Braverman's Book "The Edge Effect', serotonin is only one of something like four neuroransmitters that affect these types of problems (there's also GABA and dopamine and something else or two).
It very well might be that your situation isn't primarily a depletion of serotonin. Possibly one of the other neurotransmitters or a combination or even an environmental trauma scenario.
My interpretation of this scientific test is that this particular specific extract version of SJW apparently worked as well or slightly better than one of the better known SSRIs in people who specifically react well to boosting serotonin.
I don't have the results in front of me right now but I believe at the end of six weeks, about half of the specific SJW extract had full remission.
But if one had a primarily GABA neurotransmitter problem (just as using that one example), then I seriously doubt that SJW extract would help the problem. In fact, as GABA depletion is more generally seen in anxiety situations, it might even worsen it??? I personally have more primarily anxiety problems and am currently on Xanax XR so SJW is contraindicated in my case. What I need is something to enhance GABA levels so that I can wean off of the Xanax - and then possibly use this SJW extract to adderss the depression problems.
Have you looked into "Cranial Electrotherapy Stimulation" (no, it's NOT the ECT type of therapy with the full-range electrical shocks!) at all? It seems to have quite a few studies behind it and is FDA approved (quote) for "anxiety, depression, and insomnia".
Elroy
> I'd love to believe the results of this study but...my experience with St. John's and SSRIs tells me otherwise. I have not tried the Nature's Way Perika brand, but have tried many other brands of St. John's with only the mildest of relief from my depression and anxiety. SSRIs, on the other hand, with all their faults, do at least provide me with moderate relief from the symptoms of anxiety and depression. I'd be curious to know if anyone on these boards has experienced signficant long-term relief of depression and/or anxiety on the Perika St. John's wort. Has anyone?
>
>
Posted by Chris O on February 18, 2005, at 2:09:02
In reply to Re: Anyone here benefitting from Perika SJW? » Chris O, posted by Elroy on February 17, 2005, at 13:52:06
Elroy:
It sounds like we have some similar issues, with respect to our neurotransmitters, I mean. I primarily struggle with anxiety, panic, and OCD-like
(obsessive worrying) symptoms. As I said in the other post, I did get some relief when I took St. John's before, it was just very mild, like my experience with most non-pharmaceutical supplements. I just went off Lexpro (at 40mg/day); took it for 8 months, not really that great for me...not a very strong SSRI, in my opinion. I'm doing a little high dose fish oil experiment now, seeing if that has any effect (so far, nothing); tried some tapping/EMDR/Emotional Freedom-type stuff a few weeks before that--thought it was working, but now think it didn't do anything. If I don't get any relief off the fish oil within the next month or so, I'm probably back to exploring pharmaceuticals, thinking maybe Klonepin, maybe Luvox, don't know.
Anyway, never tried the magent stuff that mentioned, but I'm aware of it, and I've monitored people's experiences with it on this board and remedyfind.com. Seems to help some, but only for a few months at a time. I'd be willing to give it a try, if it were offered in my area (So Cal), but I don't think it is. Anyway, good luck to you.Chris
Posted by Glydin on February 18, 2005, at 9:37:08
In reply to Re: Anyone here benefitting from Perika SJW? » Chris O, posted by Elroy on February 17, 2005, at 13:52:06
My primary problem is an Anxiety Disorder. I did trial SJW twice without any appreciated effects. I have discovered during this journey, anything that messes with serotonin or norepi worsens my anxiety symptoms. I also discovered, over about a two year trial of many things, I could find no alternative substance or RX AD that does the work for my symptoms like the daily low dose benzo I take.
I'll have to say, I wasn't pleased with my discovery, but that's how it is for me. I will say I'm glad I do have a treatment that works. I was searching for something that appeared to have a little less baggage attached, but alas...
Posted by Chris O on February 18, 2005, at 10:50:13
In reply to Re: Anyone here benefitting from Perika SJW? » Elroy, posted by Glydin on February 18, 2005, at 9:37:08
Thanks for the feedback, Glydin. I am also strongly in the GAD/Panic/OCD camp. I have tried several SSRIs too--they do work for me, but...not perfectly.
I am giving high dose fish oil a try right now after an 8 month Lexapro stint, but, if the fish oil does nothing, considering Klonepin. I too have struggled so much to beat this thing without pharmaceuticals, but after many, many years of trying (I'm 37), I truly do believe I have a "hard-wired" brain dysfunction that does need some type of med to keep it under wraps.Chris
Posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 13:51:07
In reply to I'm an anxiety guy too » Elroy, posted by Chris O on February 18, 2005, at 2:09:02
Let me know how the high dose fish oils work out. I know that like with most natural supplements that the quality of the product is usually very important. When this first hit me (well, actually the second time.. the 1st time I got through it with talk therapy and Ambien for sleep aid), I was going crazy for about three months before finally going on Ativan. First it was 2x daily then upped to 3 x daily. Was okay but not great. Then was switched over - about a month ago - to Xanax XR. 2 x daily (1mg). Still better yet, but still not great.
Over this time period I discoverd a few things. Tests back in September confirmed that I had extremely high levels of cortisol. My research has shown that cortisol actually generates (manufactures) both severe anxiety and depression (apparently via chemical reaction with nerve pathways AND by screwing with neurotransmitters like serotonin). Cortisol levels were so high that there was some initial thoughts that I had Cushings Disease. More advanced testing seems to have ruled that out. Seems more likely that chronic stress over a period of a few years resulted in the HPA Axis getting stuck with cortisol production locked on "High"... and not turning off or getting re-set. Also, I have found that anxiety seems to be much more related to the GABA neurotransmitter rather than serotonin. So SSRIs (which work on serotonin principles) and strong herbals - like SJW - that also are serotonin boosters are NOT going to give much improvement if one's problem is GABA deficiency. I would strongly urge reading the book "The Edge Effect" by Dr. Braverman. His explanation is undoubtedly a lot better than my summary.
So I would suggest one possibility might be to look into GABA boosters - if that is the case obviously. Some of those identified by Dr. Braverman's book include:
Inositol
GABA
Niacinamide
Glutamic Acid (Glutamine?)
Thiamine (Vit B1, I believe)
Vitamin B6
Melatonin (at night before bedtime)
Valerian Root
PassionflowerAdditionally, the substance "Picamilon" is a "Nootropic" (brain enhancer) that is a formulation where Niacin has been bonded chemically with GABA and supposedly enhances the crossing of much more GABA across the brain blood barrier (one of the problems with plain GABA as a suplement is that most doesn't cross over the brain barrier). Might want to do some research on "Picamilon" and "anxiety".
Couple of points:
I see that we've been into a lot of the same things. Did you obtain the actual EFT course? I did and have used EFT frequently also. I find that sometimes it helps and sometimes "nothing". I think that EFT might work much more effectively on emotional issues that have an environmental issue (like a specific life trauma) rather than a chemical imbalance or interaction (like a GABA depletion). Of course often an environmental issue can ultimately lead to a chemical imbalance and / or interaction (like excessive cortisol levels and GABA depletion)! Mabe then EFT needs the boost of specific nutrient intervention and / or pharmaceutical medication so that the full-range of the problem can be addressed.
Same-same with EMDR. When I went through my first round of anxiety problems (mid 2002 until about Feb of 2004), my therapist employed some EMDR in a real basic sense (just hand tapping) on a few occasions... and I actually experienced quite a bit of relief. (Note that EFT and EMDR are two completely different techniques that operate on two completely different physiological concepts, with EFT actually being closely related to a form of accupuncture!). BTW, my therapist - who has completed much more EMDR training since then - is going to start using that EMDR therapy on a much more advanced level starting next month.
My suggestion would be to have your med doc get your cortisol levels checked (ask for three 24-hour Urinary Free Cortisol tests spread out over a couple of weeks). If any one of the three are high, first check to make sure that you don't have Cushings by having a couple "Late Night Salivary Cortisol" tests done (you spit in a test tube between 11 PM and midnight). If ti comes back as suspected Cushings you are in for a battery of quite complex testing. If it comes back as elevated cortisol but not Cushings then one would need to start looking for ways to reduce the elevated cortisol levels. Otherwise just trying to work on the anxiety issues alone are doomed to fail. In these cases one is in a vicious cycle. Anxiety creates high levels of cortisol and high levels of cortisol manufacture anxiety.... :(
Also, you mentioned "the magnet stuff". I think that you - like many people - are confusing "transcranial magnetic stimulation" with "cranial electrotherapy stimulation". The former one - which is covered on the RemedyFind website - does have some very positive uses. For example, I have developed tinnitus from my current anxiety / high cortisol situation (I know it's related as it came on exactly at the same time the high anxiety struck!)... and have recently found out that TCMS (usually known as rTCMS for repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation) has been showing some quite excellent benefits for tinnitus.
Anyway, CES is a completely different animal and does not use any type of magnetic therapy. CES devices are, in fact, FDA approved for anxiety, depression and insomnia - and a lot of studies are starting to show strong relief in many types of pain. I would strongly suggest doing some research into "cranial electrotherapy stimulation" and "anxiety". Also, I believe that one of the leading firms that offer CES devices is called Alpha-Stim and that they are possibly located in CA??? Anyway, they could probably advise you of an MD in your general area who uses CES technology. If it seems to have a positive effect, you'd want to obtain your own unit (they cost anywhere from $295 to $895 from what I have found). The typical protocol is to use unit daily (once or twice a day) for 3 - 4 weeks and then taper down until using 1 or 2 times a week (once a day) on a strictly "as needed" basis.... or unless achieving complete remission as a number of people apparently do.
Finally, I would also suggest locating a copy of "The Edge Effect" and reading up on some of these particulars. As a side note, Dr. Braverman also mentions (in a positive vein) the CES technology in his book and uses that technology in his own practice.
In my own example... well, I am searching for some long-term solutions that will reduce pharmaceuticals as much as possible, if not completely eliminate them. Will that require certain life-long supplementation? Or possibly the use of a CES device once or twice a week life-long? Possibly. Seeing as how I already use a C-PAP machine every night for sleep apnea, then I already understand that's something that just might be necessary. I may even find that pharmaceuticals might end up being a life-long necessity.... but I hope not.
Pharmaceuticals seem to add unwanted "extras" into the equation.
In my first go-around I had almost completely nothing but mild-to-moderate (and occasionally strong) anxiety with basically no depression. This time around (which started around mid June of 2004), I started with very strong anxiety right off of the bat. But again, no real depression. In late September I was finally put on Ativan (2 x daily then in a few weeks bumped up to 3 x daily) and then about a month ago bumped up to Xanax XR (granted a lower dose at 1 mg x 2 daily). But what was interesting is that I went from very little depression in late September to more and more depression as time went on.
Question: did the Ativan and then Xanax create most of - if not all - of the depression symptoms?
Now in my case, I have so many other factors (like the high cortisol, environmental trauma issues, etc.), that all I can say is "Who the heck knows".... but I found the timing of the onset and enhancement of the depression more than coincidental.
I also know that I did beat this once. From February of 2004 until mid June of 2004 there was absolutely no anxiety. Overall, I felt great. Was back to working out again. Started losing a lot of the bodyfat that I was carrying. Was enjoying life. This was after having the anxiety problems from July 2002 until February 2004. That's where I want to get back to. Was it that my brain chemicals were balanced during that time? Did something re-set the HPA Axis temporarily so that cortisol production returned to normal? I don't know, but I know that I do want to find that balance again!
Well, if I can help with anything else, don't hesitate to give a yell.
BTW, do you hawk any of the other support forums (like Brain Talk Communities or Kelly's St. John's Wort Pages)?
Elroy
P.S. In Dr. Braverman's book he has a questionnaire that you can take that supposedly will determine your Brain Chemical Dominance. My test result showed a Dopamine dominance with a strong secondary dominance in GABA. The test also revealed moderate deficiencies in dopamine and also in GABA but significant deficiencies in serotonin. Since I did not initially have depression, did the Ativan / Xanax cause the serotonin depletion? Or was that a cause of the continued cortisol elevaion? Rather than address that aspect with another pharmaceutical (SSRI - which I have had bad effects with), I am specifically looking for serotonin boosters. Unfortunately SJW is contraindicated with Xanax so may try SAMe and / or 5-HTP... while at the same time employing GABA boosters to see if I can then wean off of the Xanax (and maybe then add in the SJW extract?). For the dopamine boost I'm looking at possibly going with (low dose, 5mg) Selegiline combined with low-dose DLPA. I'm only looking at going with that level Dopamine booster due to continuing depression - but will have to monitor closely that anxiety levels don't worsen....
> Elroy:
>
> It sounds like we have some similar issues, with respect to our neurotransmitters, I mean. I primarily struggle with anxiety, panic, and OCD-like
> (obsessive worrying) symptoms. As I said in the other post, I did get some relief when I took St. John's before, it was just very mild, like my experience with most non-pharmaceutical supplements. I just went off Lexpro (at 40mg/day); took it for 8 months, not really that great for me...not a very strong SSRI, in my opinion. I'm doing a little high dose fish oil experiment now, seeing if that has any effect (so far, nothing); tried some tapping/EMDR/Emotional Freedom-type stuff a few weeks before that--thought it was working, but now think it didn't do anything. If I don't get any relief off the fish oil within the next month or so, I'm probably back to exploring pharmaceuticals, thinking maybe Klonepin, maybe Luvox, don't know.
> Anyway, never tried the magent stuff that mentioned, but I'm aware of it, and I've monitored people's experiences with it on this board and remedyfind.com. Seems to help some, but only for a few months at a time. I'd be willing to give it a try, if it were offered in my area (So Cal), but I don't think it is. Anyway, good luck to you.
>
> Chris
Posted by Glydin on February 18, 2005, at 14:15:58
In reply to Which benzo works best for you? » Glydin, posted by Chris O on February 18, 2005, at 10:50:13
> Thanks for the feedback, Glydin.
~~~You are quite welcome.
I am also strongly in the GAD/Panic/OCD camp. I have tried several SSRIs too--they do work for me, but...not perfectly.
> I am giving high dose fish oil a try right now after an 8 month Lexapro stint, but, if the fish oil does nothing, considering Klonepin.~~~I did FO's for about a year and I do think they are helpful. Right now, I'm in a washout period for the extras, so I'm not currently doing that, but it would be the one thing I probably would return to using.
I too have struggled so much to beat this thing without pharmaceuticals, but after many, many years of trying (I'm 37), I truly do believe I have a "hard-wired" brain dysfunction that does need some type of med to keep it under wraps.~~~I had to make peace with that fact myself. I finally realized a faulty "flight or fight" mechanism was at work with a flaming amygdala. I also had to make peace (well, mostly) with using a benzo. I use Klonopin and have been quite successful in gaining a quality of life I had almost forgotten was possible and avoiding the pitfalls. I consider myself fortunate.
I don't fault anyone for going the alternative route and I think if folks have success, that's better than great. I'm glad I did the trials I did because - it could have worked out differently. I would have not known how things would have been had I not tried. There can be many paths to reach the same goal.
Best of luck to you. I hope you work out a good treatment. I do believe that's possible. I have Babblemail on, if you should wish to email me.
Glydin
Posted by Chris O on February 18, 2005, at 21:12:57
In reply to Re: I'm an anxiety guy too, posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 13:51:07
Elroy:
I read your post and I appreciate all the info. I checked out some of the sites about CES, and maybe I'll try it. It sounds promising and simple, but then, so many non-pharmaceutical approaches do and none really work for me, so...but I will not lose hope!
As to the Braverman book, I actually read/look thru his other book about amino acids about 2 years ago, but I will have to check this latest one out from the library. It looks promising. I've tried many of the supplements you've listed, including Inositol, GABA, Niacinamide, Melatonin, Valerian, Passionflower--I mean, basically, those do nothing for me. I have never tried Picamillon, but I know what it is, and I have monitored others' experiences with it on these boards. Seems that some get results, some don't. Perhaps I will try that someday too.
As to the EMDR/EFT stuff, I read Lambrou and Pratt's Instant Emotional Healing about 6 weeks ago, did the exercises diligently for a couple of weeks, thought it was helping, but now...am starting to return to full-on panic mode, so...I don't think it did anything. On a positive note, I live in southern California, which is where they are, so I can visit them if I want to blow, probably $300-400/hour. My girlfriend is nagging me to give them a try in person; I don't hold high hopes, but I probably will visit them anyway.
I used to visit Kelly's St. John's page, but...I just don't get any real (beyond minor) benefits out of St. John's, SAM-e, 5-HTP, etc., so, don't really go there much. Have been to remedyfind.com a lot, and this board, which I think is the best.
Anyway, dude, thanks for the info. I'll definely check out the Braverman book. It looks, right now, like I should have some type of benzo lying around...because...the panic is always there, waiting to pop up. For me, it's always been there. My mom has it, many people in my family have it...I come from panic/rumination/and worry, so...I don't know...pharmas are beginning to look like the only way to go for me.
Oh yeah, I did a saliva cortisol test with a naturopath last year; it said my DHEA was high at 12.2 (range 3-10) and my cortisol was high at 2.0 (range from .5-1.5). So, he recommended ashwagandha which I tried to take but which did absolutely nothing...if anything, made me more anxious. Every doctor I've seen seems to think the urine cortisol thing is bogus. I kind of felt like the saliva cortisol was bogus too...because it was all geared toward selling me hormones, the company who made it.
Alright, so, again, thanks, and I wish you luck. I'm sure I'll back here as I explore, not sure where I'm going from here.
Chris
Posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 23:30:44
In reply to Thanks for the info, dude » Elroy, posted by Chris O on February 18, 2005, at 21:12:57
Hey, no problem with info. Hopefully, along the way, we all help each other out.
Also, EMDR is very different from EFT and is quite effective apparently more so in anxiety / panic / PTSD type scenarios than with "regular" depression. Most ractitioners are therapists who work under psychiatrists so hourly fees are pretty standardized (and covered by insurance if applicable).
I'd check these two web sites and locate any practitioners near you and give them a try:
It was only thru checking those that I was stunned to find out my regular therapist was a qualified EMDR practitioner. I've already talked to her about giving that a try starting next week. If you note from RemedyFind, EMDR got a VG rating:
http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?id=4144
As to the EFT, I have heard that a lot of people are resistant - at least initially - to self-administration and need to go to a practitioner for a couple sessions first (???).
This site has a lot of info but needs a lot of digging to pull out all the little gems:
http://www.emofree.com/default.htm
But in meantime, yes, having benzo aid around can be a necessity. I have been on either Ativan or Xanax constantly since last Sept. I hope to find a cure or at least a non pharm solution to my anxiety - depression - cortisol problem but if necessary will stay with a benzo to keep from going crazy!
Also... seeing as how you have a ouple of signals as to having high cortisol, do yourself a favor and have three 24-hr UFCs done (UFC = Urinary Free Cortisol). If anyone of the three come back elevated over max normal range then demand on a couple of "Late Night Salivary Cortisol" tests just to make sure that you don't have Cushing's (or just starting).
Even if it comes back as non Cushing's but you have elevated cortisol, which is often called "pseudo Cushings", you have to remember that the elevated cortisol is going to be one of the problems CAUSING your anxiety and will have to be addressed also. In fact, could very well be why many of those other supplement products never worked. None were near strong enough to counter the damage being done by trhe cortisol.
Relatively new - and not well publicized - research has shown that cortisol (in excessive levels) is not only as toxic to your system as battery acid, but that the chemical interaction of the excessive cortisol with neurological pathways actually manufactures anxiety through that chemical interaction. Also many types of depression are characterized by high cortisol levels.
http://www.anxiety-and-depression-solutions.com/
http://www.emofree.com/depr.htm#menuQUOTE:
What causes the symptoms of depression and anxiety?Researchers and medical professionals have been studying the causes of anxiety and depression related disorders for decades. And though the exact cause is not known, it is believed that the emotional and physical symptoms of anxiety and depression stem from a chemical imbalance that exists in the brain. Clinical research has uncovered various chemical imbalances that have been linked to symptoms often experienced in individuals with anxiety and depression disorders:
* An unbalanced release, reuptake (reabsorption) and a reduced availability of key neurotransmitters that include serotonin, norepinephrine, adrenaline, GABA, dopamine and Acetylcholine.
* Lowered levels of serum magnesium, zinc, or potassium.
* Lowered or deficient availability of essential vitamins like Folate, Pyridoxine, Vitamin B12 and Vitamin C.
* Increased levels of toxic neurochemicals like Homocysteine
* An imbalance of cofactors, like amino acids and essential vitamins, which are necessary to complete important neurological functions
* Over-release of cortisol stress hormone
END QUOTEhttp://www.ncl.ac.uk/nnp/research/publication/18411
QUOTE:
New Stress-Buster Drugs Block Hormone BindingNEW YORK — Get ready for the stress busters.
A new class of anxiety-relieving drugs—agents that interrupt core hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) stress signals—will emerge in the next 2-3 years, predicted Dr. George Chrousos, chief of the Pediatric and Reproductive Endocrinology Branch, National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, Bethesda, Md.
The new agents block the binding of corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH), thus interrupting the neurohormonal cascade that leads to release of cortisol, epinephrine, and norepinephrine from the adrenal glands.
The most widely studied agent in this new class is antalarmin, an experimental compound developed at the National Institutes of Health. Essentially, antalarmin switches off the stress circuit, said Dr. Chrousos, one of the discoverers of the HPA axis and a leader in stress research.
A host of animal studies shows that antalarmin selectively binds to CRH 1 receptors, thus blocking the binding of CRH. This inhibits pituitary secretion of adrenocorticotropin, in effect preventing the stress signal from reaching the adrenals. In rats and monkeys, antalarmin can reduce stress-associated behaviors following external stressors (social or mechanical) and exogenous neuroendocrine stressors (injection of CRH).
Antalarmin itself may not reach the market because pharmacokinetic problems confound its utility as a human drug. But there are many other CRH receptor antagonists; about 100 patents are in development, Dr. Chrousos said at the meeting, also sponsored by the Pituitary Network Association.
Early-stage human trials have begun with several of these compounds. “The drug companies are not talking much about these yet. But in a couple of years, we're likely to see them emerge,” he said.
The most obvious indication for CRH receptor antagonists would be in treating anxiety and panic disorders. But Dr. Chrousos and others believe these agents could have a major influence in treating many forms of depression, especially melancholic depression.
END QUOTE> Elroy:
>
> I read your post and I appreciate all the info. I checked out some of the sites about CES, and maybe I'll try it. It sounds promising and simple, but then, so many non-pharmaceutical approaches do and none really work for me, so...but I will not lose hope!
>
> As to the Braverman book, I actually read/look thru his other book about amino acids about 2 years ago, but I will have to check this latest one out from the library. It looks promising. I've tried many of the supplements you've listed, including Inositol, GABA, Niacinamide, Melatonin, Valerian, Passionflower--I mean, basically, those do nothing for me. I have never tried Picamillon, but I know what it is, and I have monitored others' experiences with it on these boards. Seems that some get results, some don't. Perhaps I will try that someday too.
>
> As to the EMDR/EFT stuff, I read Lambrou and Pratt's Instant Emotional Healing about 6 weeks ago, did the exercises diligently for a couple of weeks, thought it was helping, but now...am starting to return to full-on panic mode, so...I don't think it did anything. On a positive note, I live in southern California, which is where they are, so I can visit them if I want to blow, probably $300-400/hour. My girlfriend is nagging me to give them a try in person; I don't hold high hopes, but I probably will visit them anyway.
>
> I used to visit Kelly's St. John's page, but...I just don't get any real (beyond minor) benefits out of St. John's, SAM-e, 5-HTP, etc., so, don't really go there much. Have been to remedyfind.com a lot, and this board, which I think is the best.
>
> Anyway, dude, thanks for the info. I'll definely check out the Braverman book. It looks, right now, like I should have some type of benzo lying around...because...the panic is always there, waiting to pop up. For me, it's always been there. My mom has it, many people in my family have it...I come from panic/rumination/and worry, so...I don't know...pharmas are beginning to look like the only way to go for me.
>
> Oh yeah, I did a saliva cortisol test with a naturopath last year; it said my DHEA was high at 12.2 (range 3-10) and my cortisol was high at 2.0 (range from .5-1.5). So, he recommended ashwagandha which I tried to take but which did absolutely nothing...if anything, made me more anxious. Every doctor I've seen seems to think the urine cortisol thing is bogus. I kind of felt like the saliva cortisol was bogus too...because it was all geared toward selling me hormones, the company who made it.
>
> Alright, so, again, thanks, and I wish you luck. I'm sure I'll back here as I explore, not sure where I'm going from here.
>
> Chris
Posted by Muffinhead on March 14, 2005, at 15:23:10
In reply to St. John's Wort Useful for Severe Depression, posted by Elroy on February 16, 2005, at 17:47:26
Dear Elroy,
I just wanted to thank you for this information and to let you know that someone, namely me, is benefiting greatly from it. I have been taking Perika brand St. John's Wort for 3 weeks now, and it has been a Godsend! It is not only working for me, where other brands have not, but it is giving me the ability to wean off of Effexor XR, which is something I desparately wanted and needed to do. Thank you, my friend, for passing along this valuable information!
Posted by Elroy on March 14, 2005, at 19:25:31
In reply to Re: St. John's Wort Useful for Severe Depression » Elroy, posted by Muffinhead on March 14, 2005, at 15:23:10
Excellent, excellent news!
Unfortunately I suffer primarily from severe anxiety and am still looking for the "excellent" level antural supp to help with that. Many excellent natural supps for depression - especially the really effective ones - tend to make my anxiety actually worse.
There's Valeran and Theanine, both of which I tried and were "okay", and then Kava which I haven't tried yet.
I was put on Neurontin for some pretty strong neuropathic pains and found that it was not only pretty effective in that regard (removed about 85 - 90% of pain symptoms) but also quite effective in addressing anxiety. Since I was already on low dose Xanax XR, the Neurontin helped quite a bit with addressing a lot of the remaining "background" anxiety.
Anyway, excellent news concerning your situation!
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:59:14
In reply to Re: St. John's Wort Useful for Severe Depression » Muffinhead, posted by Elroy on March 14, 2005, at 19:25:31
> Excellent, excellent news!
>
> Unfortunately I suffer primarily from severe anxiety and am still looking for the "excellent" level antural supp to help with that. Many excellent natural supps for depression - especially the really effective ones - tend to make my anxiety actually worse.Have you tried Siberian Ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus)? Taurine? Niacinamide?
Lar
Posted by Green Willow on April 5, 2005, at 14:24:56
In reply to Thanks for the info, dude » Elroy, posted by Chris O on February 18, 2005, at 21:12:57
Chris,
I am curious to know if your ins. paid for the saliva cortisol test that you got, and if so, if you know how it was coded. Just curious, I just took the test and the office is refusing to submit to ins., but they did not tell me that at the time they ordered the test.
Thanks, Green Willow
>
> Anyway, dude, thanks for the info. I'll definely check out the Braverman book. It looks, right now, like I should have some type of benzo lying around...because...the panic is always there, waiting to pop up. For me, it's always been there. My mom has it, many people in my family have it...I come from panic/rumination/and worry, so...I don't know...pharmas are beginning to look like the only way to go for me.
>
> Oh yeah, I did a saliva cortisol test with a naturopath last year; it said my DHEA was high at 12.2 (range 3-10) and my cortisol was high at 2.0 (range from .5-1.5). So, he recommended ashwagandha which I tried to take but which did absolutely nothing...if anything, made me more anxious. Every doctor I've seen seems to think the urine cortisol thing is bogus. I kind of felt like the saliva cortisol was bogus too...because it was all geared toward selling me hormones, the company who made it.
>
> Alright, so, again, thanks, and I wish you luck. I'm sure I'll back here as I explore, not sure where I'm going from here.
>
> Chris
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.