Posted by Elroy on February 18, 2005, at 13:51:07
In reply to I'm an anxiety guy too » Elroy, posted by Chris O on February 18, 2005, at 2:09:02
Let me know how the high dose fish oils work out. I know that like with most natural supplements that the quality of the product is usually very important. When this first hit me (well, actually the second time.. the 1st time I got through it with talk therapy and Ambien for sleep aid), I was going crazy for about three months before finally going on Ativan. First it was 2x daily then upped to 3 x daily. Was okay but not great. Then was switched over - about a month ago - to Xanax XR. 2 x daily (1mg). Still better yet, but still not great.
Over this time period I discoverd a few things. Tests back in September confirmed that I had extremely high levels of cortisol. My research has shown that cortisol actually generates (manufactures) both severe anxiety and depression (apparently via chemical reaction with nerve pathways AND by screwing with neurotransmitters like serotonin). Cortisol levels were so high that there was some initial thoughts that I had Cushings Disease. More advanced testing seems to have ruled that out. Seems more likely that chronic stress over a period of a few years resulted in the HPA Axis getting stuck with cortisol production locked on "High"... and not turning off or getting re-set. Also, I have found that anxiety seems to be much more related to the GABA neurotransmitter rather than serotonin. So SSRIs (which work on serotonin principles) and strong herbals - like SJW - that also are serotonin boosters are NOT going to give much improvement if one's problem is GABA deficiency. I would strongly urge reading the book "The Edge Effect" by Dr. Braverman. His explanation is undoubtedly a lot better than my summary.
So I would suggest one possibility might be to look into GABA boosters - if that is the case obviously. Some of those identified by Dr. Braverman's book include:
Inositol
GABA
Niacinamide
Glutamic Acid (Glutamine?)
Thiamine (Vit B1, I believe)
Vitamin B6
Melatonin (at night before bedtime)
Valerian Root
PassionflowerAdditionally, the substance "Picamilon" is a "Nootropic" (brain enhancer) that is a formulation where Niacin has been bonded chemically with GABA and supposedly enhances the crossing of much more GABA across the brain blood barrier (one of the problems with plain GABA as a suplement is that most doesn't cross over the brain barrier). Might want to do some research on "Picamilon" and "anxiety".
Couple of points:
I see that we've been into a lot of the same things. Did you obtain the actual EFT course? I did and have used EFT frequently also. I find that sometimes it helps and sometimes "nothing". I think that EFT might work much more effectively on emotional issues that have an environmental issue (like a specific life trauma) rather than a chemical imbalance or interaction (like a GABA depletion). Of course often an environmental issue can ultimately lead to a chemical imbalance and / or interaction (like excessive cortisol levels and GABA depletion)! Mabe then EFT needs the boost of specific nutrient intervention and / or pharmaceutical medication so that the full-range of the problem can be addressed.
Same-same with EMDR. When I went through my first round of anxiety problems (mid 2002 until about Feb of 2004), my therapist employed some EMDR in a real basic sense (just hand tapping) on a few occasions... and I actually experienced quite a bit of relief. (Note that EFT and EMDR are two completely different techniques that operate on two completely different physiological concepts, with EFT actually being closely related to a form of accupuncture!). BTW, my therapist - who has completed much more EMDR training since then - is going to start using that EMDR therapy on a much more advanced level starting next month.
My suggestion would be to have your med doc get your cortisol levels checked (ask for three 24-hour Urinary Free Cortisol tests spread out over a couple of weeks). If any one of the three are high, first check to make sure that you don't have Cushings by having a couple "Late Night Salivary Cortisol" tests done (you spit in a test tube between 11 PM and midnight). If ti comes back as suspected Cushings you are in for a battery of quite complex testing. If it comes back as elevated cortisol but not Cushings then one would need to start looking for ways to reduce the elevated cortisol levels. Otherwise just trying to work on the anxiety issues alone are doomed to fail. In these cases one is in a vicious cycle. Anxiety creates high levels of cortisol and high levels of cortisol manufacture anxiety.... :(
Also, you mentioned "the magnet stuff". I think that you - like many people - are confusing "transcranial magnetic stimulation" with "cranial electrotherapy stimulation". The former one - which is covered on the RemedyFind website - does have some very positive uses. For example, I have developed tinnitus from my current anxiety / high cortisol situation (I know it's related as it came on exactly at the same time the high anxiety struck!)... and have recently found out that TCMS (usually known as rTCMS for repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation) has been showing some quite excellent benefits for tinnitus.
Anyway, CES is a completely different animal and does not use any type of magnetic therapy. CES devices are, in fact, FDA approved for anxiety, depression and insomnia - and a lot of studies are starting to show strong relief in many types of pain. I would strongly suggest doing some research into "cranial electrotherapy stimulation" and "anxiety". Also, I believe that one of the leading firms that offer CES devices is called Alpha-Stim and that they are possibly located in CA??? Anyway, they could probably advise you of an MD in your general area who uses CES technology. If it seems to have a positive effect, you'd want to obtain your own unit (they cost anywhere from $295 to $895 from what I have found). The typical protocol is to use unit daily (once or twice a day) for 3 - 4 weeks and then taper down until using 1 or 2 times a week (once a day) on a strictly "as needed" basis.... or unless achieving complete remission as a number of people apparently do.
Finally, I would also suggest locating a copy of "The Edge Effect" and reading up on some of these particulars. As a side note, Dr. Braverman also mentions (in a positive vein) the CES technology in his book and uses that technology in his own practice.
In my own example... well, I am searching for some long-term solutions that will reduce pharmaceuticals as much as possible, if not completely eliminate them. Will that require certain life-long supplementation? Or possibly the use of a CES device once or twice a week life-long? Possibly. Seeing as how I already use a C-PAP machine every night for sleep apnea, then I already understand that's something that just might be necessary. I may even find that pharmaceuticals might end up being a life-long necessity.... but I hope not.
Pharmaceuticals seem to add unwanted "extras" into the equation.
In my first go-around I had almost completely nothing but mild-to-moderate (and occasionally strong) anxiety with basically no depression. This time around (which started around mid June of 2004), I started with very strong anxiety right off of the bat. But again, no real depression. In late September I was finally put on Ativan (2 x daily then in a few weeks bumped up to 3 x daily) and then about a month ago bumped up to Xanax XR (granted a lower dose at 1 mg x 2 daily). But what was interesting is that I went from very little depression in late September to more and more depression as time went on.
Question: did the Ativan and then Xanax create most of - if not all - of the depression symptoms?
Now in my case, I have so many other factors (like the high cortisol, environmental trauma issues, etc.), that all I can say is "Who the heck knows".... but I found the timing of the onset and enhancement of the depression more than coincidental.
I also know that I did beat this once. From February of 2004 until mid June of 2004 there was absolutely no anxiety. Overall, I felt great. Was back to working out again. Started losing a lot of the bodyfat that I was carrying. Was enjoying life. This was after having the anxiety problems from July 2002 until February 2004. That's where I want to get back to. Was it that my brain chemicals were balanced during that time? Did something re-set the HPA Axis temporarily so that cortisol production returned to normal? I don't know, but I know that I do want to find that balance again!
Well, if I can help with anything else, don't hesitate to give a yell.
BTW, do you hawk any of the other support forums (like Brain Talk Communities or Kelly's St. John's Wort Pages)?
Elroy
P.S. In Dr. Braverman's book he has a questionnaire that you can take that supposedly will determine your Brain Chemical Dominance. My test result showed a Dopamine dominance with a strong secondary dominance in GABA. The test also revealed moderate deficiencies in dopamine and also in GABA but significant deficiencies in serotonin. Since I did not initially have depression, did the Ativan / Xanax cause the serotonin depletion? Or was that a cause of the continued cortisol elevaion? Rather than address that aspect with another pharmaceutical (SSRI - which I have had bad effects with), I am specifically looking for serotonin boosters. Unfortunately SJW is contraindicated with Xanax so may try SAMe and / or 5-HTP... while at the same time employing GABA boosters to see if I can then wean off of the Xanax (and maybe then add in the SJW extract?). For the dopamine boost I'm looking at possibly going with (low dose, 5mg) Selegiline combined with low-dose DLPA. I'm only looking at going with that level Dopamine booster due to continuing depression - but will have to monitor closely that anxiety levels don't worsen....
> Elroy:
>
> It sounds like we have some similar issues, with respect to our neurotransmitters, I mean. I primarily struggle with anxiety, panic, and OCD-like
> (obsessive worrying) symptoms. As I said in the other post, I did get some relief when I took St. John's before, it was just very mild, like my experience with most non-pharmaceutical supplements. I just went off Lexpro (at 40mg/day); took it for 8 months, not really that great for me...not a very strong SSRI, in my opinion. I'm doing a little high dose fish oil experiment now, seeing if that has any effect (so far, nothing); tried some tapping/EMDR/Emotional Freedom-type stuff a few weeks before that--thought it was working, but now think it didn't do anything. If I don't get any relief off the fish oil within the next month or so, I'm probably back to exploring pharmaceuticals, thinking maybe Klonepin, maybe Luvox, don't know.
> Anyway, never tried the magent stuff that mentioned, but I'm aware of it, and I've monitored people's experiences with it on this board and remedyfind.com. Seems to help some, but only for a few months at a time. I'd be willing to give it a try, if it were offered in my area (So Cal), but I don't think it is. Anyway, good luck to you.
>
> Chris
poster:Elroy
thread:458939
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050131/msgs/459977.html