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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Glydin on November 17, 2004, at 13:05:13
Does anyone but me get tried of the alarmist, scare producing media reports that surface? I think it's fine to go for good solid info that's to public advantage, but -- just but..
The latest big news on Vit. E is a prime example. This data, as far I can tell, was based on a patient population of over 60 years old, most, with already established heart disease. Also, I can find no source that gives the REASON or even a speculation as why the increased risk of death was noted - meaning, what pathology was occurring due to the Vit. E consumption? If someone else can find this information, I really would like to know.
I think just being alive right now pretty much puts you at 100% risk of death sometime in the future, true?
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2004, at 18:07:16
In reply to New Vitamin E findings and the media, posted by Glydin on November 17, 2004, at 13:05:13
> Does anyone but me get tried of the alarmist, scare producing media reports that surface? I think it's fine to go for good solid info that's to public advantage, but -- just but..
>
> The latest big news on Vit. E is a prime example. This data, as far I can tell, was based on a patient population of over 60 years old, most, with already established heart disease. Also, I can find no source that gives the REASON or even a speculation as why the increased risk of death was noted - meaning, what pathology was occurring due to the Vit. E consumption? If someone else can find this information, I really would like to know.
>
> I think just being alive right now pretty much puts you at 100% risk of death sometime in the future, true?If you follow this thread, it's been talked out thoroughly, I think.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041108/msgs/414208.html
I'll give you the cliff notes version. Vitamin E that is most often used in these sorts of studies is alpha-tocopherol. The problem is that if you supplement alpha-tocopherol above, oh, about 600 IU/day, you displace other forms of tocopherol from their appointed places in your antioxidant defense systems. Those other forms are beta-, gamma-, and delta- tocopherol, and the four similarly named tocotrienols. The risk is because the nutrition idiots didn't sort out what the other forms of vitamin E do, and make sure that their subjects took supplements with substantial amounts of (especially) gamma-tocopherol. Vitamin E should be mixed tocopherols, not alphatocopherol.
In any case, the increased risk is so slight that you'd just about need a magnifying glass to see it. It's a tiny increase in risk, and only at high doses of alpha-tocopherol.
If you follow this thread on sci.med.nutrition, you'll get a more detailed picture of why the article is a distortion of reality. I gave some detailed arguments there, as did others.
Lar
Posted by tealady on November 17, 2004, at 19:48:26
In reply to Re: New Vitamin E findings and the media » Glydin, posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2004, at 18:07:16
> In any case, the increased risk is so slight that you'd just about need a magnifying glass to see it. It's a tiny increase in risk, and only at high doses of alpha-tocopherol.
>
Hi Lar,
I used to feel good just taking the d alpha VitE type, but I used to only take it occaionally.My problem seemed to be when I stared on fish oil..then lernt that I had to take VitE with it.
Now fish oil was best taken with a fatty meal..in my case often meat...like say a steak.
Also on iron supps, its best taken too with meat, just think it probably is better taken with a natural souce of iron .. and also has to be taken away from thyroid meds and away from calcium..
so took iron with my steak or main meal too (not good on an empty stomach even if ya can juggle it into the 24hrs)So I ended up taking with E with the iron(ferrous gluconate liquid)..
then last week I read
The unesterified forms of tocotrienols, as well as tocopherols, are susceptible to oxidation and should therefore be stored in tightly closed, opaque containers in a cool, dry place. Tocotrienols should not be taken concomitantly with iron supplements
Iron: Most iron supplements contain the ferrous form of iron. This form can oxidize tocotrienols, marketed in their unesterified forms, to their pro-oxidant forms if taken concomitantly
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/toc_0254.shtmlSo I guess one can't take iron and fish oil near each other either, if you take vitE with the fish oil at least..and who knows maybe iron oxidases fish oil too?
It gets more complicated the more you look at it.I don't think that I completely drained all other forms of VitE..as we still get VitE from food sources as well, albeit not as much http://www.tocotrienol.org/sources.htm
For all Aussies..
I tried ordering the only brand of mixed VitE apparently available in Oz(Thompsons)that I could find..it is advertised in correctly on their website and on its distributors website and you get told the wrong info on phoning due to this..had to return it yesterday...mostly alpha ..and higher doses of selenium than stated tooJan
Posted by Glydin on November 17, 2004, at 19:58:33
In reply to Re: New Vitamin E findings and the media, posted by tealady on November 17, 2004, at 19:48:26
I have always taken my Vit E with my midday dose of fish oil. I'm a simple minded folk and I'm confused.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2004, at 22:40:04
In reply to Is it really this complicated?, posted by Glydin on November 17, 2004, at 19:58:33
>
> I have always taken my Vit E with my midday dose of fish oil. I'm a simple minded folk and I'm confused.Most vitamin E supplements are alpha-tocopherol. Lord knows why they're all that form. Gamma tocopherol is actually more common in nature. If you get a brand that says "mixed tocopherols" or similar, or one that has gamma-tocopherol on the label, then buy that. Alpha-tocopherol, taken as a sole supplement, displaces gamma-tocopherol from its normal sites of activity. That lets one particular kind of oxidative damage go unhindered, and is likely the underlying cause for the slight increase in morbidity that you read about. The displacement of gamma-tocopherol actually takes years to overcome, if it's of long-standing (according to one paper, anyway). So, my cheapo d-,l-alpha-tocopherol acetate from Walmart must be used more sparingly, while I find a good source of gamma-tocopherol to get the balance right.
Lar
Posted by mcp on November 18, 2004, at 3:09:35
In reply to Re: Is it really this complicated? » Glydin, posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2004, at 22:40:04
So where the hell do you find the proper Vitamin E? Can't seem to find any
> >
> > I have always taken my Vit E with my midday dose of fish oil. I'm a simple minded folk and I'm confused.
>
> Most vitamin E supplements are alpha-tocopherol. Lord knows why they're all that form. Gamma tocopherol is actually more common in nature. If you get a brand that says "mixed tocopherols" or similar, or one that has gamma-tocopherol on the label, then buy that. Alpha-tocopherol, taken as a sole supplement, displaces gamma-tocopherol from its normal sites of activity. That lets one particular kind of oxidative damage go unhindered, and is likely the underlying cause for the slight increase in morbidity that you read about. The displacement of gamma-tocopherol actually takes years to overcome, if it's of long-standing (according to one paper, anyway). So, my cheapo d-,l-alpha-tocopherol acetate from Walmart must be used more sparingly, while I find a good source of gamma-tocopherol to get the balance right.
>
> Lar
>
>
Posted by verne on November 18, 2004, at 10:54:17
In reply to Re: Is it really this complicated? » Glydin, posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2004, at 22:40:04
Since I started taking a good mixed tocopherol formula about 3 years ago I've noticed I can take more E without becoming agitated.The all alpha varieties caused so much anxiety I was usually drinking within hours to cope with it. I can't count the times I bought and then discarded vitamin E for this reason. I thought I was allergic to it until I started taking a good mixed tocopherol version which causes no ill effects.
Hard to find though as Larry indicated. The local health food store had none and iherb.com offers just a few with the mixed tocopherols.
verne
Posted by BradD on November 18, 2004, at 13:03:41
In reply to Re: Is it really this complicated? » Glydin, posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2004, at 22:40:04
So in a nut-shell : is it healthy to take 800 IU of tocopherol acetate every day?
Posted by tealady on November 19, 2004, at 19:17:21
In reply to Re: New Vitamin E findings and the media » Glydin, posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2004, at 18:07:16
Br J Nutr. 2004 Sep;92(3):461-8. Related Articles, Links
Antioxidant vitamin status in high exposure to oxidative stress in competitive athletes.Rousseau AS, Hininger I, Palazzetti S, Faure H, Roussel AM, Margaritis I.
Laboratoire Nutrition, Vieillissement et Maladies Cardio-vasculaires, Universite Joseph Fourier, Domaine de la Merci, La Tronche, France.
We conducted a cross-sectional study in 118 well-trained athletes to investigate 'high exposure' to sub-deficient antioxidant status, and consequently to oxidative damage, in relation to estimated daily energy expenditure (EE) and dietary antioxidant intake. Subjects completed 7 d food and activity records. Blood samples were obtained on day 8. Of the athletes 81, 60 and 43% had intakes of vitamins E, C and beta-carotene below two-thirds of the French RDA respectively, which is adjusted for EE (FRDAa). The deficit in vitamin E intake was positively correlated with EE (r 0.51, P<0.0001). All the athletes had normal plasma vitamins E and C and 14% had marginal plasma beta-carotene. Plasma thiobarbituric acid-reactive substances (TBARS) did not increase with increased EE. As evidenced by ANOVA, EE-induced vitamin C intakes increased and consequently led to increased plasma ascorbic acid concentrations. In male athletes, plasma total carotenoids were negatively correlated with plasma TBARS concentrations (r -0.31, P<0.006). The relationship between vitamin C intakes and plasma concentrations was logarithmic (r 0.59, P< 0.0001). To summarize, it is not clear whether vitamin E requirements are overestimated with reference to EE in the FRDAa. Daily requirements for vitamin C do not exceed 200 mg. Our present results could be interpreted as meaning that carotenoids play a protective role as exogenous antioxidants. Carotenoid intakes in athletes must be considered carefully.
Br J Nutr. 2004 Sep;92(3):461-8. Related Articles, Links
Antioxidant vitamin status in high exposure to oxidative stress in competitive athletes.Rousseau AS, Hininger I, Palazzetti S, Faure H, Roussel AM, Margaritis I.
Laboratoire Nutrition, Vieillissement et Maladies Cardio-vasculaires, Universite Joseph Fourier, Domaine de la Merci, La Tronche, France.
We conducted a cross-sectional study in 118 well-trained athletes to investigate 'high exposure' to sub-deficient antioxidant status, and consequently to oxidative damage, in relation to estimated daily energy expenditure (EE) and dietary antioxidant intake. Subjects completed 7 d food and activity records. Blood samples were obtained on day 8. Of the athletes 81, 60 and 43% had intakes of vitamins E, C and beta-carotene below two-thirds of the French RDA respectively, which is adjusted for EE (FRDAa). The deficit in vitamin E intake was positively correlated with EE (r 0.51, P<0.0001). All the athletes had normal plasma vitamins E and C and 14% had marginal plasma beta-carotene. Plasma thiobarbituric acid-reactive substances (TBARS) did not increase with increased EE. As evidenced by ANOVA, EE-induced vitamin C intakes increased and consequently led to increased plasma ascorbic acid concentrations. In male athletes, plasma total carotenoids were negatively correlated with plasma TBARS concentrations (r -0.31, P<0.006). The relationship between vitamin C intakes and plasma concentrations was logarithmic (r 0.59, P< 0.0001). To summarize, it is not clear whether vitamin E requirements are overestimated with reference to EE in the FRDAa. Daily requirements for vitamin C do not exceed 200 mg. Our present results could be interpreted as meaning that carotenoids play a protective role as exogenous antioxidants. Carotenoid intakes in athletes must be considered carefully.
I'm not sure, but it looks like for "normal" people VitE, VitC levels at RDA are adequate..which makes low levels of VitE found in depression stand out even more.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15508016&dopt=Abstract
mentioned in http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041022/msgs/411145.html
interesting about the caretenoids.??
I know , for me, taking d-alpha tocopherol for about 20 years occasionally helped.. I think I ran into probelms when I started fish oil daily..and took VitE at least very 2nd day to go with the fish oil, and sometimes iron at the same time as I mentioned in this post http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041108/msgs/417194.html
Probably that much VitE (500IU for a 50kg weight) depleted my other VitE levels...except for dietary intake
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 25, 2004, at 10:12:45
In reply to Q to Larry about Vit.E, posted by BradD on November 18, 2004, at 13:03:41
> So in a nut-shell : is it healthy to take 800 IU of tocopherol acetate every day?
I'm presuming that's alpha-tocopherol acetate.
It's better than not taking it, but not as good as a mixed tocopherol product.
Lar
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