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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by karaS on October 9, 2004, at 18:38:02
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 6:21:36
Decreasing estrogen isn't exactly helping my dopamine problems. Boosting dopamine can't help either because my system won't allow for it. Not a hopeful picture...
Thanks anyway,
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 9, 2004, at 18:44:19
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 6:57:01
Thanks. My problem is that once the extra dopamine is provided, the hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors make sure it's taken away quickly. Any attempts to boost it will ultimately fail. (I can take any kind of stimulants and they will put me to sleep.) I would love to go in there and just disable some of those d*mn autoreceptors!!!
Posted by tealady on October 9, 2004, at 19:54:04
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 5, 2004, at 13:19:05
> Hi Kara and all,
>
> Came across your posts on a google search as I'm a fellow sufferer of brain fog.
>
> Don't do that well with NAC alone but find thiodox by allergy research works well - I had a liver genetic test done by great smokies labs and I have a null gene for one of my glutathione enzymes.
Hi Ray,
Did you find that taking glutathione itself helped at all?. I've read it is not absorbed well and it's better to take the NAC and synthesise the glutatione in your body, but without one of the glutathione enzymes(I'm not sure if you mean an enzyme that helps make glut. or one that breaks it down actually).
Just asking as a doc has just given me some glutathione...personally I would prefer to try the NAC..but I'm wondering if you found any benefit from taking glutathione itself?>
> Don't do that well with methionine alone but do well when I combine it with lysine - wonder if it's helping make carnitine? TMG and B12 are both excellent, but the B12 from intensive nutrition works best - other B12s have made me feel awful!
>
I was just reading about methione and lysine combined to make carnitine and was wondering whether to try carnitine or methionine..I have already tried l-lysine ..no effect(tried 2 bottles of) but still have another bottle here I can use of lysine. Of course it could be the tablets..with tyrosine I found I had to take the powder(or powder in capules form Thorne Research) and it had a great effect but the tablets did nothing.
> Sorry, I'm going on a bit! Not much more to go! Do well on thorne's st john's wort (hyper-ex), especially if I've eaten too many oranges.OK I've heard from a few diferent people that oranges, adn especially bitter oranges makes them feel better...what is with bitter oranges?
SJW made me anxious..so does niacinamide, and NADH after a while...I haven't worked that out as yet!but any thoughts are most welcome!
Think my cyp3A4 enzyme can be low sometimes, does it work on hydroxylase enzymes too? Interested that it also increases p-glycoprotein, and so helps with glutathione transport across cell membranes (and other conjugates too). For infection, I do well with lactoferrin, medium chain triglycerides and citricidin.....phew, hope you're not overwhelmed or bored!Err overwhelmed..not bored. I've looked at vitamins/minerals for about 20 years..some hormones for about 3 years..but everything else is new, so I'm struggling. Most of the things you are taking are new and interesting ..as well as probably relevant to me.
One thing I could give my feedback on is inflammation and cortisol.
I find that cortisol reduces inflammation. This is different from what some of the writings seem to be saying..or I may have mmisinterpreted?
I think folk use (with me sometimes and only out of desperation) cortisol to reduce inflammtion and antibodies too I think..feels like it.
Prednisone is prescribed (as well as cortisol) to reduce inflammation I think....as in Lupus.Out of all my female cousins, the only one without autoimmune problems (hashimoto/ Lupus) is the one who was on very high dose cortiol for a long period of time (due to a growth?..well something they drained with a shunt.. in her brain). Sorry none of my family seem to not bother with any names of what is actually wrong with them, what they are given to take etc.
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 9, 2004, at 20:20:22
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 5, 2004, at 13:19:05
Just adding..
I was interested in methionine to form carnitine as I read it helps with mitchondria function..and hence metabolism..which I'm still trying to increase.
I'm on thyroid hormone (THYROID/Armour/T4&T3 etc.)which has helped but my temperature is still way too low ...hence the brain fog, cold etc.There is a bok a guy on the thyroid forum recommended to me. I have it out of the uni lbrary now..and It's the best!..On physiology and I think you'd be interested in it.
You can also read it online for free if you have account at Amazon..that means giving them your credit card details though.
It's called "Review of Medical Physiology" by William F. Ganong 21st edition , 2003. It's updated every 2 years. This is one book I'm definitely going to buy..maybe next edition! For now I'll just renew it from the library.pp303 of above book..you can view online
Fatty acid ocxidation & synthesis..says
"Carnitine is synthesized in the body from lysine and methionine.'
"Medium and short chain fatty acids can enter the mitochondria without difficulty, but long-chain fatty acids must be bound to carnitine"Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 8:46:22
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 9, 2004, at 18:38:02
> Decreasing estrogen isn't exactly helping my dopamine problems. Boosting dopamine can't help either because my system won't allow for it. Not a hopeful picture...
Hi Kara,I don't think the article was about a straight decrease in estrogen, it was more about the loss of natural rhythm to the menstrual cycle, paticularly in the luteal phase.
The other article talked about tryptophan excess altering the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors - so maybe something that antagonizes dopamine, may make it's receptors overly sensitive, as a compensation? what do you think?
"The greater prolactin response to l-tryptophan infusion in depressed subjects may be the result of an increase in dopamine receptor sensitivity, secondary to reduced dopamine levels."Another abstract made a mention of genetic errors in the dopamine receptor too...
Sorry, don't have any straight answers!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 10:04:02
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 9, 2004, at 19:54:04
>
> Did you find that taking glutathione itself helped at all?. I've read it is not absorbed well and it's better to take the NAC and synthesise the glutatione in your body, but without one of the glutathione enzymes(I'm not sure if you mean an enzyme that helps make glut. or one that breaks it down actually).I find I can take NAC alone for only a short period of time - I seem to need selenium, B1, B2, B3 just as much - I know some autistic children do better with glutathione than NAC, even though it can't be absorbed, it can still be digested and the individual amino acids absorbed. I have been using transdermal glutathione, with good results, but still need the co-factors. Thiodox works well, but eventually I need a break - I'm sure I knock out other anti-oxidants if I take it for a while..
> Just asking as a doc has just given me some glutathione...personally I would prefer to try the NAC..but I'm wondering if you found any benefit from taking glutathione itself?
It does seem to be quite personal - just try different things and see what happens!
>
>
> I was just reading about methione and lysine combined to make carnitine and was wondering whether to try carnitine or methionine..I have already tried l-lysine ..no effect(tried 2 bottles of) but still have another bottle here I can use of lysine. Of course it could be the tablets..with tyrosine I found I had to take the powder(or powder in capules form Thorne Research) and it had a great effect but the tablets did nothing.I do quite well with either carnitine or methionine and lysine, but not acetyl-carnitine. Acetyl-carnitine gives me a splitting headache. I wonder whether the fillers and binders in the tyrosine tablet stop you absorbing it? Frustratingly different brands of the same supplement give different results!
> OK I've heard from a few diferent people that oranges, adn especially bitter oranges makes them feel better...what is with bitter oranges?
I've heard that bitter oranges like grapefruits can inhibit liver enzymes (like cyp3a4) and for some people with low glutathione, the preservation of glutathione makes them feel better - the toxins are still there though! It means they only detox as fast as they can cope with - Jeff Bland calls them pathological detoxifiers!
>
> SJW made me anxious..so does niacinamide, and NADH after a while...I haven't worked that out as yet!but any thoughts are most welcome!
SJW boosts cyp3A4 and can deplete glutathione too - I need thiamine, riboflavin, lipoic acid and selenium to go with niacinamide, not sure if that's what you go through?
Not sure if the rest of this was from you or another, let me know if you had another question - hope the answers were of some use!Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 10:52:09
In reply to Mitochondria, fatty acids, carnitine.....Jlx » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 9, 2004, at 20:20:22
>
> It's called "Review of Medical Physiology" by William F. Ganong 21st edition , 2003. It's updated every 2 years. This is one book I'm definitely going to buy..maybe next edition! For now I'll just renew it from the library.Just had a peep, that's useful, and it's free too!
>
> pp303 of above book..you can view online
> Fatty acid ocxidation & synthesis..says
> "Carnitine is synthesized in the body from lysine and methionine.'
> "Medium and short chain fatty acids can enter the mitochondria without difficulty, but long-chain fatty acids must be bound to carnitine"medium chain fatty acids are good for energy, and are antifungal/antiviral too - coconuts are high in MCTs.
If taking methionine, it's a good idea to take B12 and folic acid (and maybe betaine too). I find I do better with sublingual b12 and activated folate from thorne called folacal. Folic acid has to be excreted through the bile, then reabsorbed before it can be activated - so it can easily go amiss.
Just found out this weekend how important creatine is for brain energy - I have taken creatine before and not felt that good on it. But at the weekend I found that creatine needs methylation to make it - and that 70% of methylation in the body is to methylate creatine - maybe that's why SAMe is so good for depression? I do feel really good when I take B12, folacal, or betaine, so going to up them! Also it seems that a lot of brain disease is associated with low creatine.
Ray
Posted by Dave001 on October 11, 2004, at 15:53:48
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 20:30:40
>
> > You really have to see them all to believe the variety. Check out: http://www.cknow.com/ckinfo/emoticons.htm
>
> That website on the emoticons is freakin' unbelievable!!! Of course most of them are useless since no one could possibly know them. My favorite is about the eunich but I won't post that here for fear of offending anyone (Dr. Bob really).
>Some of the more extravagant examples could almost be mistaken for a regular expression in Perl.
Dave
Posted by Simus on October 11, 2004, at 22:29:59
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 8:46:22
> The other article talked about tryptophan excess altering the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors - so maybe something that antagonizes dopamine, may make it's receptors overly sensitive, as a compensation? what do you think?
>
>
> "The greater prolactin response to l-tryptophan infusion in depressed subjects may be the result of an increase in dopamine receptor sensitivity, secondary to reduced dopamine levels."Hmmm... I was thinking of trying tryptophan or 5HTP now that I am on Wellbutrin instead of a SSRI, but it sounds like that still wouldn't be a very good idea. Any insight on this anyone?
Simus
Posted by raybakes on October 12, 2004, at 3:30:59
In reply to Mitochondria, fatty acids, carnitine.....Jlx » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 9, 2004, at 20:20:22
Hi Jan, came across this flow chart for the synthesis of carnitine - it's SAMe that's needed for it's formation, so again it's the whole methylation pathway that needs to work, not just methionine.
http://www.med.unibs.it/~marchesi/carnitine_biosynth.html
came across some articles that say creatine causes depression in some people - I wonder if taking creatine without taking methyl donors can result in a backlog of unactivated creatine, and so have a detrimental effect on brain energy?
Ray
Posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:50:05
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 8:46:22
> > Decreasing estrogen isn't exactly helping my dopamine problems. Boosting dopamine can't help either because my system won't allow for it. Not a hopeful picture...
>
> Hi Kara,> The other article talked about tryptophan excess altering the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors - so maybe something that antagonizes dopamine, may make it's receptors overly sensitive, as a compensation? what do you think?
> "The greater prolactin response to l-tryptophan infusion in depressed subjects may be the result of an increase in dopamine receptor sensitivity, secondary to reduced dopamine levels."
>
> Another abstract made a mention of genetic errors in the dopamine receptor too...
>
> Sorry, don't have any straight answers!
>
> Ray
>Ray,
I keep hearing and reading lately about serotonergics and their antagonistic effect on dopamine via the receptors. I'm not going to take any tryptophan or 5-htp even for sleep. Maybe my idea to start on Cymbalta isn't such a good one either. Even though it's balanced with NE, maybe I shouldn't be taking anything with serotonin activity at all.
Don't apologize for not having the answer. No one does yet. It doesn't exist.
Thanks as always for your imput,
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:52:42
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog, posted by Dave001 on October 11, 2004, at 15:53:48
> >
> > > You really have to see them all to believe the variety. Check out: http://www.cknow.com/ckinfo/emoticons.htm
> >
> > That website on the emoticons is freakin' unbelievable!!! Of course most of them are useless since no one could possibly know them. My favorite is about the eunich but I won't post that here for fear of offending anyone (Dr. Bob really).
> >
>
> Some of the more extravagant examples could almost be mistaken for a regular expression in Perl.
>
> Dave
>
I'll have to take your word on that one - but I bet the meanings of those emoticons are much more interesting!K
Posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:55:08
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 11, 2004, at 22:29:59
> > The other article talked about tryptophan excess altering the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors - so maybe something that antagonizes dopamine, may make it's receptors overly sensitive, as a compensation? what do you think?
> >
> >
> > "The greater prolactin response to l-tryptophan infusion in depressed subjects may be the result of an increase in dopamine receptor sensitivity, secondary to reduced dopamine levels."
>
> Hmmm... I was thinking of trying tryptophan or 5HTP now that I am on Wellbutrin instead of a SSRI, but it sounds like that still wouldn't be a very good idea. Any insight on this anyone?
>
> Simus
Maybe not a good idea. I know I was pushing it earlier but now I don't think it's worth the potential dopamine antagonism.-K
Posted by tealady on October 16, 2004, at 4:59:25
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:50:05
> > The other article talked about tryptophan excess altering the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors - so maybe something that antagonizes dopamine, may make it's receptors overly sensitive, as a compensation? what do you think?
>
> > "The greater prolactin response to l-tryptophan infusion in depressed subjects may be the result of an increase in dopamine receptor sensitivity, secondary to reduced dopamine levels."
> >II'm probably completely off course here, that the problem may be caused by competition for the same enzyme cofactors ...
Dopamine is produced from tyrosine by the action of tyrosine hydroxylase (TH), which uses tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4) as a cofactor. BH4 is also a cofactor for tryptophan and serotonin synthesis, and also for the enzyme nitrous oxide synthetase
or possibly its P5P B6 which I THINK is needed by somehow by tyrosine hydroxylase ?(not sure here) , and low adrenal function meaning it can take up to 21 days(heard that from a doc) to resynthesize enough tyrosine hydroxylase..not sure of this but I think it fits in somewhere with the competiton theory too.
The competiton means making too much of one(say serotonin) will deplete the ability to make the other (say dopamine)..and depletion will eventually cause oversensitivity of the related receptorsI guess.hmm guess I must be low on serotonin looking at this
Jan
http://www.genome.jp/dbget-bin/show_pathway?map00350+1.14.16.2
http://www.genome.jp/dbget-bin/show_pathway?map00380+1.14.16.4
Posted by raybakes on October 17, 2004, at 7:41:55
In reply to Tryptophan/ serotonin, tyrosine/dopamine... RAY, posted by tealady on October 16, 2004, at 4:59:25
Hi Jan, wrote a bit about testosterone in an anxiety thread - did you manage to make any sense of it?
> II'm probably completely off course here, that the problem may be caused by competition for the same enzyme cofactors ...Think that could be a possibility! Have to look out for some research..
>
> Dopamine is produced from tyrosine by the action of tyrosine hydroxylase (TH), which uses tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4) as a cofactor. BH4 is also a cofactor for tryptophan and serotonin synthesis, and also for the enzyme nitrous oxide synthetase
>
> or possibly its P5P B6 which I THINK is needed by somehow by tyrosine hydroxylase ?(not sure here)dopa decarboxylase to dopamine needs p5p...
, and low adrenal function meaning it can take up to 21 days(heard that from a doc) to resynthesize enough tyrosine hydroxylase..not sure of this but I think it fits in somewhere with the competiton theory too.Haven't heard this, but did find an abstract that says vitamin d can stimulate tyrosine hydroxylase gene expression.
Just looked up on pubmed and found this though...
Prevalence and clinical associations of 10 defined autoantibodies in autoimmune polyendocrine syndrome type I.
Department of Medical Sciences, University Hospital, SE-751 85 Uppsala, Sweden.
The prevalence of autoantibodies against nine intracellular enzyme autoantigens, namely 21-hydroxylase, side-chain cleavage enzyme (SCC), 17 alpha-hydroxylase, glutamic acid decarboxylase 65, aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase, tyrosine phosphatase-like protein IA-2, tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH), tyrosine hydroxylase, cytochrome P450 1A2, and against the extracellular calcium-sensing receptor, was assessed in 90 patients with autoimmune polyendocrine syndrome type I. A multivariate logistic regression analysis was performed for the presence of autoantibodies as independent predictors for different disease manifestations. Reactivities against 21-hydroxylase and SCC were associated with Addison's disease with odds ratios (ORs) of 7.8 and 6.8, respectively. Hypogonadism was exclusively associated with autoantibodies against SCC with an OR of 12.5. Autoantibodies against tyrosine phosphatase-like protein IA-2 were associated with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus with an OR of 14.9, but with low sensitivity. Reactivities against TPH and, surprisingly, glutamic acid decarboxylase 65, were associated with intestinal dysfunction, with ORs of 3.9 and 6.7, respectively. TPH reactivity was the best predictor for autoimmune hepatitis, with an OR of 27.0. Hypoparathyroidism was not associated with reactivity against any of the autoantigens tested. No reactivity against the calcium-sensing receptor was found. Analysis of autoantibodies in autoimmune polyendocrine syndrome type I patients is a useful tool for establishing autoimmune manifestations of the disease as well as providing diagnosis in patients with suspected disease.
>
> The competiton means making too much of one(say serotonin) will deplete the ability to make the other (say dopamine)..and depletion will eventually cause oversensitivity of the related receptorsI guess.
>
> hmm guess I must be low on serotonin looking at thisI sometimes wonder if balancing the immune system, increasing energy and, blood flow and oxygen, would bring a lot of the body's neurotansmitters into balance? Just seems to be so much juggling and interaction - surely god can't be so mean!!
Thanks for the pathways - bit complicated! Mentioned in a reply to Larry about dopamine and noradrenaline degrading to toxic quinones when monoamine oxidase degrades them - methylation via the enzyme COMT can protect the brain from these quinones (think they are dopachrome, adrenochrome). Another abstract talked about biopterin and it's precursor, protection tyrosine hyroxylase.
The role of adrenochrome in stimulating the oxidation of catecholamines.
Bindoli A, Scutari G, Rigobello MP.
Centro Studio Biomembrane, CNR, Padova, Italy. labbind@civ.bio.unipd.it
Adrenochrome, a stable oxidation product formed after oxidation of adrenaline, strongly stimulates oxygen uptake occurring during the autoxidation of adrenaline, other catecholamines and ascorbate. Oxygen consumed is converted to hydrogen peroxide suggesting the occurrence of a redox cycling process. The reduction of adrenochrome operated by adrenaline is accelerated by the exclusion of oxygen indicating that the oxidation of adrenaline occurs directly and superoxide anion does not necessarily mediate it. Oxygen consumption, observed in the catecholamine/adrenochrome and ascorbate/adrenochrome systems, is due to the autoxidation of leucoadrenochrome that, at variance with adrenaline, easily autoxidizes also at physiological pH. Therefore, in these systems, leucoadrenochrome appears to be the major determinant of the production of superoxide anion.
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 17, 2004, at 14:06:20
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:55:08
Hi Kara, do you know what dopamine receptor is hypersensitive with you? Seen that there are D1, D2, D3, D4, and D5 receptors - the hypersensitivity of D2 seems to be linked with schizophrenia and anxiety - things like coffee tea, chocolate, vitamin A, biopterin, l-dopa, forskolin and biopterin are linked to receptor sensitivity in different dopamine receptors.
Here's one abstract as an example..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8263772
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 17, 2004, at 14:11:03
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:50:05
and this is interesting too..
Posted by karaS on October 17, 2004, at 17:16:40
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 17, 2004, at 14:06:20
> Hi Kara, do you know what dopamine receptor is hypersensitive with you? Seen that there are D1, D2, D3, D4, and D5 receptors - the hypersensitivity of D2 seems to be linked with schizophrenia and anxiety - things like coffee tea, chocolate, vitamin A, biopterin, l-dopa, forskolin and biopterin are linked to receptor sensitivity in different dopamine receptors.
>
> Here's one abstract as an example..
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8263772
>
> Ray
Unfortunately I don't know which one or ones are involved yet. I have to do more research (if it's even possible for me to figure that out). I certainly hope it's not the Parkinson's (D1?)related receptors. I also recently read (if I'm understanding this correctly) that the problem might instead be with the 1-b adrenergic receptors. They seem to serve as a "trans-synaptic mechanism" which can render the dopamine itself as nonfunctional and would therefore have the same effect as hypersensitive autoreceptors.At any rate, the last sentence of the abstract (copied below) that you provided was very encouraging. It suggests that it is indeed possible to treat this kind of hypersensitivity (at least with respect to the D1 receptor). I'm hopeful that has implications for the other D receptors as well.
"Our data suggests that chronic L-dopa/carbidopa treatment reverses the increased dopaminergic activity and D1 receptor functional supersensitivity seen after 6-hydroxydopamine lesions, and indicates a D1 receptor-mediated action of L-dopa"
Thanks Ray
Posted by karaS on October 17, 2004, at 17:24:08
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 17, 2004, at 14:11:03
> and this is interesting too..
>
> http://www.sliderule.ca/research.htm
So the problem might also be these G-proteins and not necessarily too many presynaptic autoreceptors? It appears that I have lots to investigate!Thanks again.
Kara
Posted by JLx on October 17, 2004, at 18:10:54
In reply to Re: Tryptophan/ serotonin, tyrosine/dopamine... RAY » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 17, 2004, at 7:41:55
> I sometimes wonder if balancing the immune system, increasing energy and, blood flow and oxygen, would bring a lot of the body's neurotansmitters into balance? Just seems to be so much juggling and interaction - surely god can't be so mean!!Don't forget the hormone complications too. For women, we've got the monthly fluctuations when we're young and even worse ones when we get older. I think most of us have extra sensitivity to stress too. We're like the canaries in the mine when it comes to societal issues such as our food supply, changes in our family structures, environmental pollution, etc.
The following article caught my eye recently. Do you think the UK will institute some changes to prevent this? I'm wondering because you have national health insurance, and therefore, some governmental interest in prevention of illness unlike our own system in the US which is dominated by money and political influence by Big Pharma and the medical establishment.
http://millennium-debate.org/indsun27june042.htm
"Change in UK diets 'Could Trigger Mental Health Crisis'
Changes in British diets are going to lead to an explosion in mental health problems, medical experts said yesterday. They warned of a crisis even bigger than the epidemic of obesity afflicting the UK.
They said that most of the increase could probably be blamed on changes in farming and food over the past 20 years, which have led to deficiencies in essential omega-3 fatty acids. ...
pregnant women with lower intakes of omega-3 are more likely to have children who will go on to have behavioural problems, attention disorders and other problems.
The mothers themselves were more likely to suffer from depression if they had lower-than-average intakes of the fatty acid.
Professor Crawford warned: "We are facing a monumental crisis here, and a lot of it is due to the very simple issue of diet."
This follows a study highlighted earlier this year by the Royal College of Psychiatrists, which revealed a world-wide link between a lack of omega-3 in the diet and schizophrenia. This research showed that people who ate high levels of sugar and dairy products, instead of oily fish, were more likely to develop severe mental illness. ...
omega-3 is linked to brain development and mental health and is found in "green" foods such as cabbage due to the photosynthesis process.
Professor Crawford said that at the beginning of the century, people's omega-3 intake was higher because of traditional farming practices where cows and lambs were fed on grass.
However, intensive agriculture practices over the past 50 years have meant that livestock is now fed on grain and vitamins rather than omega-3-rich foods.
Mental health problems are already predicted to become the third most costly burden of disease in the world by 2020."
Btw, I noticed that you said you'd been to a presentation where someone from the Monroe Institute was speaking? What did he say and what did you think of him? I have had some experience with their brainwave technology and there's a thread on it here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040928/msgs/398366.html
JL
Posted by raybakes on October 18, 2004, at 15:07:43
In reply to Re: Tryptophan/ serotonin, tyrosine/dopamine... RAY » raybakes, posted by JLx on October 17, 2004, at 18:10:54
>
> Don't forget the hormone complications too. For women, we've got the monthly fluctuations when we're young and even worse ones when we get older. I think most of us have extra sensitivity to stress too. We're like the canaries in the mine when it comes to societal issues such as our food supply, changes in our family structures, environmental pollution, etc.Yes, not forgetting the hormones too! Although, pituitary regulation does rely on neurotransmitters, and I read a recent article that found that every single step of hormone production is influenced by the immune system.
I totally agree about omega 3 fatty acids (thanks for the article) and often wonder what the effects will be now and in future generations.
>
> The following article caught my eye recently. Do you think the UK will institute some changes to prevent this? I'm wondering because you have national health insurance, and therefore, some governmental interest in prevention of illness unlike our own system in the US which is dominated by money and political influence by Big Pharma and the medical establishment.Even though we have national health insurance, most doctors get most of their information through the drug companies - the government are also heavily influenced by the drug companies too, as is european government!
>> Btw, I noticed that you said you'd been to a presentation where someone from the Monroe Institute was speaking? What did he say and what did you think of him? I have had some experience with their brainwave technology and there's a thread on it here: > JL
The guy was skip atwater - I've used hemi sync before and found it can reduce the fogginess, and improve alertness, even the ones that are supposed to relax. I've also done a signature sound training course, and like using a large bass speaker to vibrate my whole body with sound!! I did find a frequency once that made a bit difference to my brain (i lost what frequency it was though, doh!) and interestingly,i felt great for two weeks until i had some potato crisps cooked in sunflower oil!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 19, 2004, at 9:51:41
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 17, 2004, at 17:24:08
Hi Kara, found these abstracts today...
Grima, G., B. Benz, et al. (2003). "Dopamine-induced oxidative stress in neurons with glutathione deficit: implication for schizophrenia." Schizophr Res 62(3): 213-24.
Glutathione (GSH) is the main non-protein antioxidant and plays a critical role in protecting cells from damage by reactive oxygen species (ROS) generated by dopamine (DA) metabolism. We reported a decrease of GSH levels ([GSH]) in CSF and in prefrontal cortex in vivo in schizophrenics [Eur. J. Neurosci. 12 (2000) 3721]. A GSH deficit may lead to membrane peroxidation and microlesions around dopaminergic terminals, resulting in loss of connectivity. To test this hypothesis, we studied the effect of DA in cultured cortical neurons with low [GSH]. DA alone decreased [GSH] by 40%. This effect appears to result from direct conjugation of DA semiquinone/quinone with GSH. Ethacrynic acid (EA) decreased [GSH] in a concentration-dependent manner. When added to EA, DA further lowers [GSH]. As this additional decrease is blocked by superoxide dismutase (SOD) or D(1)/D(2) receptor antagonists, it likely involves the generation of superoxide via activation of DA receptors. It also reduces the mitochondrial membrane potential. Most interestingly, a significant decrease in number of neuronal processes (spines analogous) was induced by 24-h application of DA only in low [GSH]. These data, compatible with our hypothesis, is consistent with the dendritic spines reduction reported in schizophrenia and could be related to abnormalities in synaptic connectivity.
And this one..
also bought a good book on the thyroid today called "the great thyroid scandal and how to survive it"
Ray
Posted by karaS on October 19, 2004, at 14:14:53
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 19, 2004, at 9:51:41
> Hi Kara, found these abstracts today...
>
> Grima, G., B. Benz, et al. (2003). "Dopamine-induced oxidative stress in neurons with glutathione deficit: implication for schizophrenia." Schizophr Res 62(3): 213-24.
>
> Glutathione (GSH) is the main non-protein antioxidant and plays a critical role in protecting cells from damage by reactive oxygen species (ROS) generated by dopamine (DA) metabolism. We reported a decrease of GSH levels ([GSH]) in CSF and in prefrontal cortex in vivo in schizophrenics [Eur. J. Neurosci. 12 (2000) 3721]. A GSH deficit may lead to membrane peroxidation and microlesions around dopaminergic terminals, resulting in loss of connectivity. To test this hypothesis, we studied the effect of DA in cultured cortical neurons with low [GSH]. DA alone decreased [GSH] by 40%. This effect appears to result from direct conjugation of DA semiquinone/quinone with GSH. Ethacrynic acid (EA) decreased [GSH] in a concentration-dependent manner. When added to EA, DA further lowers [GSH]. As this additional decrease is blocked by superoxide dismutase (SOD) or D(1)/D(2) receptor antagonists, it likely involves the generation of superoxide via activation of DA receptors. It also reduces the mitochondrial membrane potential. Most interestingly, a significant decrease in number of neuronal processes (spines analogous) was induced by 24-h application of DA only in low [GSH]. These data, compatible with our hypothesis, is consistent with the dendritic spines reduction reported in schizophrenia and could be related to abnormalities in synaptic connectivity.
>
> And this one..
>
> http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.neuro.27.070203.144206;jsessionid=j96WSOG9YwX9
>
> also bought a good book on the thyroid today called "the great thyroid scandal and how to survive it"
>
> Ray
Thanks Ray.
I was taking 1200 mg. of NAC for a while but didn't notice any relief. Wouldn't that have provided enough glutathione had that been my problem or is that more the kind of thing where it would take a long time to see any kind of difference? Also, I read another post here a little while back about the perils of taking NAC when you have mercury amalgams (which I have) so I'm a bit worried now about taking it again.
In terms of the second abstract about the G protein-coupled receptor kinases (GRKs), I can't help but think that by the time they have something on the market for that I'll be much too old to care. I really do appreciate your sending me the abstract though. I guess I'm just feeling sorry for myself now. Ok, time for some CBT. Talk to you later.
Kara
Posted by JLx on October 19, 2004, at 20:45:42
In reply to Re: Tryptophan/ serotonin, tyrosine/dopamine... RAY » JLx, posted by raybakes on October 18, 2004, at 15:07:43
>
> >
> > Don't forget the hormone complications too. For women, we've got the monthly fluctuations when we're young and even worse ones when we get older. I think most of us have extra sensitivity to stress too. We're like the canaries in the mine when it comes to societal issues such as our food supply, changes in our family structures, environmental pollution, etc.
>
> Yes, not forgetting the hormones too! Although, pituitary regulation does rely on neurotransmitters, and I read a recent article that found that every single step of hormone production is influenced by the immune system.
>
> I totally agree about omega 3 fatty acids (thanks for the article) and often wonder what the effects will be now and in future generations.
> >
> > The following article caught my eye recently. Do you think the UK will institute some changes to prevent this? I'm wondering because you have national health insurance, and therefore, some governmental interest in prevention of illness unlike our own system in the US which is dominated by money and political influence by Big Pharma and the medical establishment.
>
> Even though we have national health insurance, most doctors get most of their information through the drug companies - the government are also heavily influenced by the drug companies too, as is european government!
> >
>
> > Btw, I noticed that you said you'd been to a presentation where someone from the Monroe Institute was speaking? What did he say and what did you think of him? I have had some experience with their brainwave technology and there's a thread on it here: > JL
>
> The guy was skip atwater - I've used hemi sync before and found it can reduce the fogginess, and improve alertness, even the ones that are supposed to relax. I've also done a signature sound training course, and like using a large bass speaker to vibrate my whole body with sound!! I did find a frequency once that made a bit difference to my brain (i lost what frequency it was though, doh!) and interestingly,i felt great for two weeks until i had some potato crisps cooked in sunflower oil!
>
>
> Ray
Hmm...that IS interesting. I'm getting to where I look forward to my morning CD session. The one I'm listening to now is supposed to be theta and delta but when I listened to it at night once I was awake for hours. I'm surprised more people here don't try these things.JL
Posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 5:50:10
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 19, 2004, at 14:14:53
>
> I was taking 1200 mg. of NAC for a while but didn't notice any relief. Wouldn't that have provided enough glutathione had that been my problem or is that more the kind of thing where it would take a long time to see any kind of difference? Also, I read another post here a little while back about the perils of taking NAC when you have mercury amalgams (which I have) so I'm a bit worried now about taking it again.
Hi Kara,Yes there is always the concern that mercury can be transported into the brain as well as out - in the excellent book "children with starving brains" they have a few protocols listed for heavy metal detoxification - they first use something called 'captomer' which is claimed not to cross the blood brain barrier.
I would be very surprised if glutathione wasn't a problem - there are many ways of raising it, each individual to the person. All the co-factors might be necessary combined with NAC - Thiodox is an excellent supplement. Glutamine is useful in raising glutathione as it can also buffer cellular acidity, as well as supply gluatamate for glutathione. My own practitioner gave me something by jarrow called 'homocysteine pf' yesterday which helped me massively. I talked to her about my concerns about my poor methylation and how it's required for creatine prouction and acidity buffering - so we checked it out and found I was really high in folate (like Jan) but couldn't use it - homocysteine PF got my folate working (checked with kinesiology). As glutamine and methylation improve my fog too, I think part of the 'fogginess' may be because I'm too acid.
Here's a few abstracts....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8412764&dopt=Abstract
this is interesting about buffering and celluar calcium, sorry it's complex though!
'These results suggest that local ADP buffering by PCr is essential for normal Ca(2+) regulation by the SR.' (SR = sarcoplasmic reticulum)
So when energy is low, and ADP is higher than ATP, the cell becomes more acid - creatine (in my case 'think methylation' ) buffers the acidity and allows a cell to function more efficiently.
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