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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 248 to 272 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by tealady on October 3, 2004, at 20:45:32
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » Simus, posted by raybakes on September 29, 2004, at 13:49:39
>
> > And to complicate matters, I have read that in people with both adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism, the adrenal fatigue should be treated first. People with both can feel worse if given thyroid hormone before the adrenals are stronger. ???
> >
> Hi Simus, this study supports your view about treating adrenals first..
>
> Evaluation of thyroid function in patients with isolated adrenocorticotropin deficiency.
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1332472
>
> Ray
>Thanks from me too Ray, good one
Sounds like me I guess too. Unfortunately it's even more difficult to get lowish adrenal function treated or even tested...especially ACTH.
I think I'll have to try though.
It's all or nothing with most endos (Cushings, normal, or addisons).
Before taking thyroid hormones by morning cortsol was 310 (about 11 in US)..some say for safety it should be over 12..or preferably 15(multiply by 28 I think from memory for rest of world's units) or more to cope when your metabolism raises with the thyroid meds.After about 3 months on THYROID (Armour) my muscles went strangely really tight..like an athletes...then I developed carpel tunnel like symptoms. I had to add in cortisol to normalise, relax the muscles and stop the pain.
Before adding in the cortisol , my saliva 4 times a day cortisol tests showed pretty low...so low at that midnight (although I couldn't last up that long awake, so took it earlier)..it showed "too low for a reading"..and yes that was hw I felt.
So in me anyway adding in the thyroid meds seemed to cause my already "just coping most of the time" adrenals to crash..or that story seems to cover the symptoms.I guess liquorice would raise ACTH levels? (I need to check this)
I think it raises with
cortisol(by not converting)
and oestrogen(no idea how)
and raises sodium(maybe by helping retain in urine) as well as lowering potassium.
Ray, I'm really very interested in yur approach ..like lowering the antibodies ..as that has been what I have always thought would be the way to go.
You're way ahead of me though and my brain is not functioning very well at present..just wants to go away and do something else and forget it all(fishing sounds good).
I haven't heard of a lot of things you are taking..do you order them from the US..and how did you find out about all of this?
More later, but thanks. It's all very inetersting.
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 4, 2004, at 3:21:47
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 2, 2004, at 14:40:04
> Just came across this to do with autoimmune disease, particularly hashimoto's. Seems a genetic error in vitamin d production is common in hashimoto's.
>
> So low glutathione, low vitamin D and high prolactin are common in autoimmune disease. Interesting that prolactin is high in autism too, and as ritalin increases dopamine, wonder whether attention deficit kids have autoimmune problems?
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15296474this seems to say that thera re probably other enzymes that do the conversion to VitD3..so maybe no worries there?
"This idea may be supported by previous findings that complete loss of 1(OH)ase activity by genetic mutation of the 1(OH)ase gene in humans did not cause a reduction in serum 1,25(OH)2D3 levels sufficient to cause severe rickets (5, 6). It is therefore likely that, at least in humans, enzyme(s) other than 1(OH)ase (CYP27B1) are also specifically or nonspecifically responsible for 1,25(OH)2D3 production."
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/142/7/2734
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 4, 2004, at 3:49:44
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 3, 2004, at 13:53:56
This explains where oestrogen fits in..maybe increases the no of vitD receptors that drives the uptake of calcium into blood(I think it's saying) ..makes sense. I found increasing oestrogen increased my calcium blood levels slightly(doubt if significant though)..still low normal range
"Estrogen and 1,25(OH)2D3 appear to have common activities in the intestine. It has been shown in animal studies[75] that estrogen stimulates the expression of the 1,25(OH)2D3 receptor that drives the calbindin-mediated transport of calcium across the intestinal epithelial cells. It is possible that the negative effect of vitamin D deficiency on the bones of aged patients is enhanced by this lack of estrogen-dependent expression of the 1,25(OH)2D3 receptor."
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408926_2
Posted by tealady on October 4, 2004, at 4:57:48
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 3, 2004, at 12:54:16
>
> Always find it strange that we call vitamin D a vitamin when it's a steroid! I've heard that all the fat soluble 'vitamins' A, D, E, K can be toxic in large doses, but hear different ideas about safe and toxic doses. I did buy a vitamin D cream from biotics but it gives me a splitting headache, so might try some other sources - I definitely couldn't take megadoses of that one! Frequently if there's an enzyme block, taking a precursor of something can cause a build up that further inhibits the enzyme - that happens with omega 6 oils with LA to GLA so perhaps that is my problem with vitamin D?
>I heard something about not taking ALA if one is hypothyroid or maybe they meant hashi?..maybe something like this? (can't remember where)..just noted lipoic acid amongst your supps.
Personlly I haven't tried ALA..and is that the same as lipoic acid?
>
> So with glutathione or NAC I take niacinamide, thiamine, lipoic acid, but if it starts to feel odd, include some selenium and B2 - I have been lucky over the last few days that I can tolerate a multi (thorne's extra nutrients), but usually it feels great for a while then I have to go back to individual nutrients.
>
Glutathione (or NAC) sounds really interesting to me, especially when you listed the foods!. really there are the exact ones I feel pick me up..and its not like a sugar pick-me-up or even a chocolate pick-me-up either!Also I've scome cross the word glutathone relating to GP6D deficiency preventing something..I'll look it up..and low carbing can alter (slow) G6PD post transcriptional gene production ..or something like that!..so that is why I sometimes feel better if I have some glucose I think(instead of just low carb)...not sure on though!..get REALLLY lost with this stuff!
> Carnosine to balance cell pH and protect cell membranes.
Haven't heard of this one..I've no idea if I'm too acidic or too basic. Last blood test my Cl ions were high and bicarbonates low though. Still thinking about that!
>
> DPP IV - helps to regulate inflammatory cytokines.another newy
>
> Max DHA
>
> silica, helps regulate collagen and extra celluar tissue as they are involved in immune regulation, especially in the brain.I "think" I should get plenty of silica in my drinking water..collected off sandstone?..but I'd like more collagen production!..sems to have died in the past year or so..maybe even since I started added in fish oil and CoQ10..but that is probably a coincidence
>
> Norival!! my favourite! to help support dopamine and noradrenaline. Biopterin in norival also important in serotonin synthesis. Sometimes take DLPA.another I haven't tried
> Sublingual B12 - antibodies to intrinsic factor in stomach can inhibit B12 absorption and also betaine HCl because of reduced HCl.
how does one know if one has reduced Hcl in the stomach or not?
> I think women hold the answers to the worlds problems - too many men together will eventually start a war.....or a football match!
yes well, they activately promote football in some coutries and between sme nations in the hope of preventing war...appears to work too so far..although one word..always ensure you KNOW when the footy match is on ..as noone will be about, and you may be stranded for a few hours<g> ..and maybe pray for the umpire too come to think of it!Think it should be world law that all governments are 50/50 male/female...hmmm well that would certainly change govt anyway! Read a bit about Cleopatra at all?
Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 6:21:36
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 3, 2004, at 18:24:46
> Do you know anything about "hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors"?
I don't but found this abstract when looking up references for iris...
and this article talks about the luteal phase of the menstral cycle altering dopamine receptor sensitivity..
http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/content/refs/17/2/204
..and this..
"Estrogen and the Brain
The brain is a target organ for estrogen
Affects mood, mental states and memory
Acts on both monoamine and neurotransmitter mechanisms - stimulates increase in Dopamine 2 (D2) receptors in the brain."
Posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 6:27:08
In reply to Re: treating adrenals first » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 3, 2004, at 20:45:32
Jan, found an abstract that said selenium was important for the adrenals to be sensitive to ACTH - guess that may be glutathione related?
> I haven't heard of a lot of things you are taking..do you order them from the US..Most of them are american but I order them from the nutri centre in london - owned by tesco, no less!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 6:32:04
In reply to VitD3 » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 4, 2004, at 3:21:47
Got very confused with the Vitamin D articles! All the different formulae and enzymes and routes sent my head in a spin!
I did try my 'biotics' liquid calcitriol again, and got the same headache! Thought about the A and D connection, so tried 12,000 iu of vitamin A from halibut oil, and it feels great! I don't get on with cod liver oil, so this might be a good combination.
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 6:57:01
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 3, 2004, at 18:24:46
As I was looking up stuf on vitamin D came across this on vitamin D and dopamine.
'Activated vitamin D in the adrenal gland regulates tyrosine hydroxylase, the rate limiting enzyme necessary for the production of dopamine, epinephrine and norepinephrine'
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9011759
Posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 7:14:00
In reply to Re: supps for reducing antibodies » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 4, 2004, at 4:57:48
>
> I heard something about not taking ALA if one is hypothyroid or maybe they meant hashi?..maybe something like this? (can't remember where)..just noted lipoic acid amongst your supps.
> Personlly I haven't tried ALA..and is that the same as lipoic acid?
That's the trouble with abbreviations - I meant linoleic acid, the omega 6 fatty acid! ALA is the same as lipoic acid, and is also know as thioctic acid. Think you're right, lipoic acid can interfere with T4 to T3 conversion - I take it as lipothiamine in a very small amount and do fine with it - it's essential for energy production and can help with glutathione recycling.>
> Also I've scome cross the word glutathone relating to GP6D deficiency preventing something..I'll look it up..and low carbing can alter (slow) G6PD post transcriptional gene production ..or something like that!..so that is why I sometimes feel better if I have some glucose I think(instead of just low carb)...not sure on though!..get REALLLY lost with this stuff!tried to guess what G6PD was, but had to give up and look on google! glucose 6 phospahte deficiency! G6P is needed to make NADPH, the molecule that supplies the energy to recycle glutathione.
> >
> > DPP IV - helps to regulate inflammatory cytokines.
>
> another newy
....really recommend DPP IV, and lactoferrin too!
> how does one know if one has reduced Hcl in the stomach or not?
sometimes drinking lemon juice after meal is a good test...if you feel better, it might be that the extra acidity is helping.Ray
Posted by Simus on October 5, 2004, at 16:45:36
In reply to Re: supps for reducing antibodies » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 7:14:00
> > how does one know if one has reduced Hcl in the stomach or not?
>
> sometimes drinking lemon juice after meal is a good test...if you feel better, it might be that the extra acidity is helping.
>
> RayThanks,Ray. You are amazing. I was just wondering that very thing myself. I do feel better with lemon in my water with meals.
Simus
Posted by karaS on October 9, 2004, at 18:38:02
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 6:21:36
Decreasing estrogen isn't exactly helping my dopamine problems. Boosting dopamine can't help either because my system won't allow for it. Not a hopeful picture...
Thanks anyway,
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 9, 2004, at 18:44:19
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 6:57:01
Thanks. My problem is that once the extra dopamine is provided, the hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors make sure it's taken away quickly. Any attempts to boost it will ultimately fail. (I can take any kind of stimulants and they will put me to sleep.) I would love to go in there and just disable some of those d*mn autoreceptors!!!
Posted by tealady on October 9, 2004, at 19:54:04
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 5, 2004, at 13:19:05
> Hi Kara and all,
>
> Came across your posts on a google search as I'm a fellow sufferer of brain fog.
>
> Don't do that well with NAC alone but find thiodox by allergy research works well - I had a liver genetic test done by great smokies labs and I have a null gene for one of my glutathione enzymes.
Hi Ray,
Did you find that taking glutathione itself helped at all?. I've read it is not absorbed well and it's better to take the NAC and synthesise the glutatione in your body, but without one of the glutathione enzymes(I'm not sure if you mean an enzyme that helps make glut. or one that breaks it down actually).
Just asking as a doc has just given me some glutathione...personally I would prefer to try the NAC..but I'm wondering if you found any benefit from taking glutathione itself?>
> Don't do that well with methionine alone but do well when I combine it with lysine - wonder if it's helping make carnitine? TMG and B12 are both excellent, but the B12 from intensive nutrition works best - other B12s have made me feel awful!
>
I was just reading about methione and lysine combined to make carnitine and was wondering whether to try carnitine or methionine..I have already tried l-lysine ..no effect(tried 2 bottles of) but still have another bottle here I can use of lysine. Of course it could be the tablets..with tyrosine I found I had to take the powder(or powder in capules form Thorne Research) and it had a great effect but the tablets did nothing.
> Sorry, I'm going on a bit! Not much more to go! Do well on thorne's st john's wort (hyper-ex), especially if I've eaten too many oranges.OK I've heard from a few diferent people that oranges, adn especially bitter oranges makes them feel better...what is with bitter oranges?
SJW made me anxious..so does niacinamide, and NADH after a while...I haven't worked that out as yet!but any thoughts are most welcome!
Think my cyp3A4 enzyme can be low sometimes, does it work on hydroxylase enzymes too? Interested that it also increases p-glycoprotein, and so helps with glutathione transport across cell membranes (and other conjugates too). For infection, I do well with lactoferrin, medium chain triglycerides and citricidin.....phew, hope you're not overwhelmed or bored!Err overwhelmed..not bored. I've looked at vitamins/minerals for about 20 years..some hormones for about 3 years..but everything else is new, so I'm struggling. Most of the things you are taking are new and interesting ..as well as probably relevant to me.
One thing I could give my feedback on is inflammation and cortisol.
I find that cortisol reduces inflammation. This is different from what some of the writings seem to be saying..or I may have mmisinterpreted?
I think folk use (with me sometimes and only out of desperation) cortisol to reduce inflammtion and antibodies too I think..feels like it.
Prednisone is prescribed (as well as cortisol) to reduce inflammation I think....as in Lupus.Out of all my female cousins, the only one without autoimmune problems (hashimoto/ Lupus) is the one who was on very high dose cortiol for a long period of time (due to a growth?..well something they drained with a shunt.. in her brain). Sorry none of my family seem to not bother with any names of what is actually wrong with them, what they are given to take etc.
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 9, 2004, at 20:20:22
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 5, 2004, at 13:19:05
Just adding..
I was interested in methionine to form carnitine as I read it helps with mitchondria function..and hence metabolism..which I'm still trying to increase.
I'm on thyroid hormone (THYROID/Armour/T4&T3 etc.)which has helped but my temperature is still way too low ...hence the brain fog, cold etc.There is a bok a guy on the thyroid forum recommended to me. I have it out of the uni lbrary now..and It's the best!..On physiology and I think you'd be interested in it.
You can also read it online for free if you have account at Amazon..that means giving them your credit card details though.
It's called "Review of Medical Physiology" by William F. Ganong 21st edition , 2003. It's updated every 2 years. This is one book I'm definitely going to buy..maybe next edition! For now I'll just renew it from the library.pp303 of above book..you can view online
Fatty acid ocxidation & synthesis..says
"Carnitine is synthesized in the body from lysine and methionine.'
"Medium and short chain fatty acids can enter the mitochondria without difficulty, but long-chain fatty acids must be bound to carnitine"Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 8:46:22
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 9, 2004, at 18:38:02
> Decreasing estrogen isn't exactly helping my dopamine problems. Boosting dopamine can't help either because my system won't allow for it. Not a hopeful picture...
Hi Kara,I don't think the article was about a straight decrease in estrogen, it was more about the loss of natural rhythm to the menstrual cycle, paticularly in the luteal phase.
The other article talked about tryptophan excess altering the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors - so maybe something that antagonizes dopamine, may make it's receptors overly sensitive, as a compensation? what do you think?
"The greater prolactin response to l-tryptophan infusion in depressed subjects may be the result of an increase in dopamine receptor sensitivity, secondary to reduced dopamine levels."Another abstract made a mention of genetic errors in the dopamine receptor too...
Sorry, don't have any straight answers!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 10:04:02
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 9, 2004, at 19:54:04
>
> Did you find that taking glutathione itself helped at all?. I've read it is not absorbed well and it's better to take the NAC and synthesise the glutatione in your body, but without one of the glutathione enzymes(I'm not sure if you mean an enzyme that helps make glut. or one that breaks it down actually).I find I can take NAC alone for only a short period of time - I seem to need selenium, B1, B2, B3 just as much - I know some autistic children do better with glutathione than NAC, even though it can't be absorbed, it can still be digested and the individual amino acids absorbed. I have been using transdermal glutathione, with good results, but still need the co-factors. Thiodox works well, but eventually I need a break - I'm sure I knock out other anti-oxidants if I take it for a while..
> Just asking as a doc has just given me some glutathione...personally I would prefer to try the NAC..but I'm wondering if you found any benefit from taking glutathione itself?
It does seem to be quite personal - just try different things and see what happens!
>
>
> I was just reading about methione and lysine combined to make carnitine and was wondering whether to try carnitine or methionine..I have already tried l-lysine ..no effect(tried 2 bottles of) but still have another bottle here I can use of lysine. Of course it could be the tablets..with tyrosine I found I had to take the powder(or powder in capules form Thorne Research) and it had a great effect but the tablets did nothing.I do quite well with either carnitine or methionine and lysine, but not acetyl-carnitine. Acetyl-carnitine gives me a splitting headache. I wonder whether the fillers and binders in the tyrosine tablet stop you absorbing it? Frustratingly different brands of the same supplement give different results!
> OK I've heard from a few diferent people that oranges, adn especially bitter oranges makes them feel better...what is with bitter oranges?
I've heard that bitter oranges like grapefruits can inhibit liver enzymes (like cyp3a4) and for some people with low glutathione, the preservation of glutathione makes them feel better - the toxins are still there though! It means they only detox as fast as they can cope with - Jeff Bland calls them pathological detoxifiers!
>
> SJW made me anxious..so does niacinamide, and NADH after a while...I haven't worked that out as yet!but any thoughts are most welcome!
SJW boosts cyp3A4 and can deplete glutathione too - I need thiamine, riboflavin, lipoic acid and selenium to go with niacinamide, not sure if that's what you go through?
Not sure if the rest of this was from you or another, let me know if you had another question - hope the answers were of some use!Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 10:52:09
In reply to Mitochondria, fatty acids, carnitine.....Jlx » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 9, 2004, at 20:20:22
>
> It's called "Review of Medical Physiology" by William F. Ganong 21st edition , 2003. It's updated every 2 years. This is one book I'm definitely going to buy..maybe next edition! For now I'll just renew it from the library.Just had a peep, that's useful, and it's free too!
>
> pp303 of above book..you can view online
> Fatty acid ocxidation & synthesis..says
> "Carnitine is synthesized in the body from lysine and methionine.'
> "Medium and short chain fatty acids can enter the mitochondria without difficulty, but long-chain fatty acids must be bound to carnitine"medium chain fatty acids are good for energy, and are antifungal/antiviral too - coconuts are high in MCTs.
If taking methionine, it's a good idea to take B12 and folic acid (and maybe betaine too). I find I do better with sublingual b12 and activated folate from thorne called folacal. Folic acid has to be excreted through the bile, then reabsorbed before it can be activated - so it can easily go amiss.
Just found out this weekend how important creatine is for brain energy - I have taken creatine before and not felt that good on it. But at the weekend I found that creatine needs methylation to make it - and that 70% of methylation in the body is to methylate creatine - maybe that's why SAMe is so good for depression? I do feel really good when I take B12, folacal, or betaine, so going to up them! Also it seems that a lot of brain disease is associated with low creatine.
Ray
Posted by Dave001 on October 11, 2004, at 15:53:48
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 20:30:40
>
> > You really have to see them all to believe the variety. Check out: http://www.cknow.com/ckinfo/emoticons.htm
>
> That website on the emoticons is freakin' unbelievable!!! Of course most of them are useless since no one could possibly know them. My favorite is about the eunich but I won't post that here for fear of offending anyone (Dr. Bob really).
>Some of the more extravagant examples could almost be mistaken for a regular expression in Perl.
Dave
Posted by Simus on October 11, 2004, at 22:29:59
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 8:46:22
> The other article talked about tryptophan excess altering the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors - so maybe something that antagonizes dopamine, may make it's receptors overly sensitive, as a compensation? what do you think?
>
>
> "The greater prolactin response to l-tryptophan infusion in depressed subjects may be the result of an increase in dopamine receptor sensitivity, secondary to reduced dopamine levels."Hmmm... I was thinking of trying tryptophan or 5HTP now that I am on Wellbutrin instead of a SSRI, but it sounds like that still wouldn't be a very good idea. Any insight on this anyone?
Simus
Posted by raybakes on October 12, 2004, at 3:30:59
In reply to Mitochondria, fatty acids, carnitine.....Jlx » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 9, 2004, at 20:20:22
Hi Jan, came across this flow chart for the synthesis of carnitine - it's SAMe that's needed for it's formation, so again it's the whole methylation pathway that needs to work, not just methionine.
http://www.med.unibs.it/~marchesi/carnitine_biosynth.html
came across some articles that say creatine causes depression in some people - I wonder if taking creatine without taking methyl donors can result in a backlog of unactivated creatine, and so have a detrimental effect on brain energy?
Ray
Posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:50:05
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 11, 2004, at 8:46:22
> > Decreasing estrogen isn't exactly helping my dopamine problems. Boosting dopamine can't help either because my system won't allow for it. Not a hopeful picture...
>
> Hi Kara,> The other article talked about tryptophan excess altering the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors - so maybe something that antagonizes dopamine, may make it's receptors overly sensitive, as a compensation? what do you think?
> "The greater prolactin response to l-tryptophan infusion in depressed subjects may be the result of an increase in dopamine receptor sensitivity, secondary to reduced dopamine levels."
>
> Another abstract made a mention of genetic errors in the dopamine receptor too...
>
> Sorry, don't have any straight answers!
>
> Ray
>Ray,
I keep hearing and reading lately about serotonergics and their antagonistic effect on dopamine via the receptors. I'm not going to take any tryptophan or 5-htp even for sleep. Maybe my idea to start on Cymbalta isn't such a good one either. Even though it's balanced with NE, maybe I shouldn't be taking anything with serotonin activity at all.
Don't apologize for not having the answer. No one does yet. It doesn't exist.
Thanks as always for your imput,
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:52:42
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog, posted by Dave001 on October 11, 2004, at 15:53:48
> >
> > > You really have to see them all to believe the variety. Check out: http://www.cknow.com/ckinfo/emoticons.htm
> >
> > That website on the emoticons is freakin' unbelievable!!! Of course most of them are useless since no one could possibly know them. My favorite is about the eunich but I won't post that here for fear of offending anyone (Dr. Bob really).
> >
>
> Some of the more extravagant examples could almost be mistaken for a regular expression in Perl.
>
> Dave
>
I'll have to take your word on that one - but I bet the meanings of those emoticons are much more interesting!K
Posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:55:08
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 11, 2004, at 22:29:59
> > The other article talked about tryptophan excess altering the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors - so maybe something that antagonizes dopamine, may make it's receptors overly sensitive, as a compensation? what do you think?
> >
> >
> > "The greater prolactin response to l-tryptophan infusion in depressed subjects may be the result of an increase in dopamine receptor sensitivity, secondary to reduced dopamine levels."
>
> Hmmm... I was thinking of trying tryptophan or 5HTP now that I am on Wellbutrin instead of a SSRI, but it sounds like that still wouldn't be a very good idea. Any insight on this anyone?
>
> Simus
Maybe not a good idea. I know I was pushing it earlier but now I don't think it's worth the potential dopamine antagonism.-K
Posted by tealady on October 16, 2004, at 4:59:25
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by karaS on October 16, 2004, at 0:50:05
> > The other article talked about tryptophan excess altering the sensitivity of the dopamine receptors - so maybe something that antagonizes dopamine, may make it's receptors overly sensitive, as a compensation? what do you think?
>
> > "The greater prolactin response to l-tryptophan infusion in depressed subjects may be the result of an increase in dopamine receptor sensitivity, secondary to reduced dopamine levels."
> >II'm probably completely off course here, that the problem may be caused by competition for the same enzyme cofactors ...
Dopamine is produced from tyrosine by the action of tyrosine hydroxylase (TH), which uses tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4) as a cofactor. BH4 is also a cofactor for tryptophan and serotonin synthesis, and also for the enzyme nitrous oxide synthetase
or possibly its P5P B6 which I THINK is needed by somehow by tyrosine hydroxylase ?(not sure here) , and low adrenal function meaning it can take up to 21 days(heard that from a doc) to resynthesize enough tyrosine hydroxylase..not sure of this but I think it fits in somewhere with the competiton theory too.
The competiton means making too much of one(say serotonin) will deplete the ability to make the other (say dopamine)..and depletion will eventually cause oversensitivity of the related receptorsI guess.hmm guess I must be low on serotonin looking at this
Jan
http://www.genome.jp/dbget-bin/show_pathway?map00350+1.14.16.2
http://www.genome.jp/dbget-bin/show_pathway?map00380+1.14.16.4
Posted by raybakes on October 17, 2004, at 7:41:55
In reply to Tryptophan/ serotonin, tyrosine/dopamine... RAY, posted by tealady on October 16, 2004, at 4:59:25
Hi Jan, wrote a bit about testosterone in an anxiety thread - did you manage to make any sense of it?
> II'm probably completely off course here, that the problem may be caused by competition for the same enzyme cofactors ...Think that could be a possibility! Have to look out for some research..
>
> Dopamine is produced from tyrosine by the action of tyrosine hydroxylase (TH), which uses tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4) as a cofactor. BH4 is also a cofactor for tryptophan and serotonin synthesis, and also for the enzyme nitrous oxide synthetase
>
> or possibly its P5P B6 which I THINK is needed by somehow by tyrosine hydroxylase ?(not sure here)dopa decarboxylase to dopamine needs p5p...
, and low adrenal function meaning it can take up to 21 days(heard that from a doc) to resynthesize enough tyrosine hydroxylase..not sure of this but I think it fits in somewhere with the competiton theory too.Haven't heard this, but did find an abstract that says vitamin d can stimulate tyrosine hydroxylase gene expression.
Just looked up on pubmed and found this though...
Prevalence and clinical associations of 10 defined autoantibodies in autoimmune polyendocrine syndrome type I.
Department of Medical Sciences, University Hospital, SE-751 85 Uppsala, Sweden.
The prevalence of autoantibodies against nine intracellular enzyme autoantigens, namely 21-hydroxylase, side-chain cleavage enzyme (SCC), 17 alpha-hydroxylase, glutamic acid decarboxylase 65, aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase, tyrosine phosphatase-like protein IA-2, tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH), tyrosine hydroxylase, cytochrome P450 1A2, and against the extracellular calcium-sensing receptor, was assessed in 90 patients with autoimmune polyendocrine syndrome type I. A multivariate logistic regression analysis was performed for the presence of autoantibodies as independent predictors for different disease manifestations. Reactivities against 21-hydroxylase and SCC were associated with Addison's disease with odds ratios (ORs) of 7.8 and 6.8, respectively. Hypogonadism was exclusively associated with autoantibodies against SCC with an OR of 12.5. Autoantibodies against tyrosine phosphatase-like protein IA-2 were associated with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus with an OR of 14.9, but with low sensitivity. Reactivities against TPH and, surprisingly, glutamic acid decarboxylase 65, were associated with intestinal dysfunction, with ORs of 3.9 and 6.7, respectively. TPH reactivity was the best predictor for autoimmune hepatitis, with an OR of 27.0. Hypoparathyroidism was not associated with reactivity against any of the autoantigens tested. No reactivity against the calcium-sensing receptor was found. Analysis of autoantibodies in autoimmune polyendocrine syndrome type I patients is a useful tool for establishing autoimmune manifestations of the disease as well as providing diagnosis in patients with suspected disease.
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> The competiton means making too much of one(say serotonin) will deplete the ability to make the other (say dopamine)..and depletion will eventually cause oversensitivity of the related receptorsI guess.
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> hmm guess I must be low on serotonin looking at thisI sometimes wonder if balancing the immune system, increasing energy and, blood flow and oxygen, would bring a lot of the body's neurotansmitters into balance? Just seems to be so much juggling and interaction - surely god can't be so mean!!
Thanks for the pathways - bit complicated! Mentioned in a reply to Larry about dopamine and noradrenaline degrading to toxic quinones when monoamine oxidase degrades them - methylation via the enzyme COMT can protect the brain from these quinones (think they are dopachrome, adrenochrome). Another abstract talked about biopterin and it's precursor, protection tyrosine hyroxylase.
The role of adrenochrome in stimulating the oxidation of catecholamines.
Bindoli A, Scutari G, Rigobello MP.
Centro Studio Biomembrane, CNR, Padova, Italy. labbind@civ.bio.unipd.it
Adrenochrome, a stable oxidation product formed after oxidation of adrenaline, strongly stimulates oxygen uptake occurring during the autoxidation of adrenaline, other catecholamines and ascorbate. Oxygen consumed is converted to hydrogen peroxide suggesting the occurrence of a redox cycling process. The reduction of adrenochrome operated by adrenaline is accelerated by the exclusion of oxygen indicating that the oxidation of adrenaline occurs directly and superoxide anion does not necessarily mediate it. Oxygen consumption, observed in the catecholamine/adrenochrome and ascorbate/adrenochrome systems, is due to the autoxidation of leucoadrenochrome that, at variance with adrenaline, easily autoxidizes also at physiological pH. Therefore, in these systems, leucoadrenochrome appears to be the major determinant of the production of superoxide anion.
Ray
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